Grey Orcs and Darkvision [Archive] - Wizards Community

Grey Orcs and Darkvision [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kend
02-16-08, 11:26 AM I'm considering writing a story about an ancient Grey Orc from the Orcgate Wars that is awakened in modern Faerun. When I looked up the Grey Orcs, I noticed they didn't have Darkvision, but they still had lightsensitivity.

These are the Grey Orc stats:
Gray orcs all possess the following racial traits:

* +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Gray orcs are not as strong as mountain orcs, but they tend to be much more independent and strong-willed.
* Medium-size.
* Gray orc land speed is 40 feet. Their gait is long and loping and they can cover great distances quickly.
* Proficient with the greataxe and longbow; gray orcs train with weapons from childhood.
* Light Sensitivity (Ex): Gray orcs suffer a -1 penalty on attack rolls in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
* Scent (Ex): Gray orcs have the scent ability, as detailed in the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide.
* Orc Blood: For all special abilities and effects, a gray orc is considered an orc. Gray orcs, for example, can use or create orc weapons and magic items with racially specific orc powers as if they were orcs.

Found here:
Grey Orcs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a)

My question is, is this a typo or do the Grey Orcs lack the nightvision their kin enjoy?

I think it's kind of foolish for them to be light sensitive without it. It could simply be balance for their scent power and speed but it's a poor act of balancing. In my mind, Orc's Darkvision is one of the Orc's primary traits, right up there with their physical strength.

As fellow FR fans and people who would look into this, would you find the addition of Darkvision among their powers unfair or not keeping to the lore? By nature, I'm the kind of person that doesn't like it when people violate the lore or utterly break it in their own interest. Unfortunately this stumps me.

Sorry if someone has already brought this up and I missed it.
MarkusTay63
02-16-08, 11:34 AM They were designed to be a suface-dwelling nocturnal species, as opposed to a cave-dwelling subterranean species. Considering the +1 level adj, I would definately ditch the light-sensitvity.

Or better yet, keep it and ditch the level adj - it's really not worth a +1 as is.

You know, this thread makes me think - why the hell did the have the feral Mountain Orcs form a new Kingdom, rather then these guys who are already much more civilized and closer to the WoW Orcs they are going for.

That Wisdom bonus just screams 'Druid' to me. :rolleyes:
Kend
02-16-08, 01:09 PM It seems these are the more lawful Orcs then chaotic ones. Yes, of course they are barbarians and that is probably the majority, which means chaos.

I agree with you about the druids, but they're probably trying to keep away from the connection to Eberron. Also, Druids are generally seen as good or neutral nature aligned, while these Orcs are inherently painted as evil. When you take in their favored class is Cleric, the way I view it, if an Orc in the Tribe/clan shows discipline he's placed with the clerics. Otherwise, he's thrown at the warriors with the rest of the pups. I realize there are chaotic priests, but the discipline, the meditation, and the service to a deity would appear to be lawful instead of chaotic.

Your point that they are nocturnal surface creatures is a good one. At the same time, what's the likeliness that a nocturnal creature isn't going to have extra-ordinary night sight? Or at least low-light vision? An example to me would be someone trying to say, "They're elves...but they don't have low-light vision..." There would be a riot.

I'd rather keep the light-sensitivity and +1 level adjustment while giving them low-light or darkvision. I'm leaning towards darkvision because the vast majority of monstrous creatures are gifted with it. It simply ties into the Orc lore. I like the imagery of an Orc horde wincing as the dawn breaks, weakened but far from helpless.
MarkusTay63
02-17-08, 12:47 AM Give them the lowlight then - it's a good compromise.
talsharien
02-26-08, 05:21 PM It seems daft to me that Grey Orcs do not receive Darkvision. I have removed the level adj and added low-light rather than dark.
Ogrebear
03-03-08, 07:32 PM I ran this past several GM and rules lawyers I know and they all said ditch the +1 LA and light sensitivity then add low light vision.

Like the Sharakim the Grey Orcs did not deserve an LA adjustment imho.
Kend
03-08-08, 09:12 AM Thanks for the replies everyone, I think I'm going with the low-light and eliminating the racial adjustment.
Neveroth
03-17-08, 01:01 PM With a base speed of 40 and Scent (which people here seem to neglect or underestimate for some unknown reason), a +1 LA isn't really that bad (especially if you can buy it off). Take a look at hobgoblins. It's fine the way it is, but I'd say adding darkvision would be fair.

If you remove both light sensitivity and the level adjustment, the grey orc would become almost unbalanced. All their features are very useful throughout the campaign (unlike drow and planetouched spell-likes for instance). And let's not forget that the Quick trait (which adds 10ft. to base speed) has a penalty of 1 hp/level. Then again, when you consider whisper gnomes and alike, the line seems blurry.
Kend
03-17-08, 10:15 PM I agree that scent is a powerful attribute, both for roleplaying and in-game mechanics. Their speed is also a powerful addition, particularly when you take into account that other then clerics, a majority of their character classes will be barbarians which adds another +10. A base speed of fifty is pretty impressive, that's straight running down horses.

I like light sensitivity with Orcs. It adds that creatures of the darkness, monsters of the night feel to them. I like that concept and imagery of nocturnal Orcs moving in a horde under the moonlight.

My end decision was to give them darkvision 60 feet, keep the light sensitivity and the +1 level adjustment. Mountain Orcs have darkvision, Half-Orcs have darkvision, Orogs have Darkvision, Tanarukk have darkvision.
There's a pattern here...

To me, not adding darkvision was either a mistake someone ran with or a poor decision that someone didn't think all the way through.
Kuros81
03-17-08, 11:48 PM +1 LA seems a bit extreme, but without the LA the class is too powerful, even with light-sensitivity and no Dark-vision.

How about a +1 LA but also 1d8 HD? I don't know how that would play out exactly for a 1st level Grey Orc Druid's skills, feats, etc.
Neveroth
03-18-08, 02:06 AM My end decision was to give them darkvision 60 feet, keep the light sensitivity and the +1 level adjustment. Good call. That's how I use them.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, why do you even care about stats if you're just writing a story? :)
Aldareth
03-18-08, 02:15 AM i would just add low light vision, they are surface hunters living on plains, low light vision to hunt under the light of stars would be enough.

keep the darkvision for the cave/undergroundliving creatures
Neveroth
03-18-08, 03:18 AM Minor difference. Maybe thematically more fitting, but it doesn't make much sense for a low-light vision surface-dwelling creature to have light sensitivity either.
Kend
03-19-08, 06:24 PM I agree that they're surface hunting creatures, but so are Ogres who have Darkvision. Apples and oranges maybe, but Orcs of any kind should have Darkvision allowing them to see in any environment, instead of lowlight which allows them to establish color at night but leave them blind in absolute darkness. The key reason why I used darkvision is because I see Orc's abilities as practical over useful. Its useful to be able to establish color in a low-light incidence. Yet Orcs don't care about colors, they wouldn't consider the meaning, they would make a split second decision on whether or not to attack.

I like using stats and actual mechanics in my stories, it gives me boundaries and guidelines for characters' abilities. It helps maintain the continuity of the story as well as reminds me of the characters limits. What's that quote, "We like people for their strengths but love them for their weaknesses?"

I hate super characters whose be all end all response is one attribute or power. I particularly hate it when those attributes are used because the author is simply unoriginal or lack creativity. Superman... I'm not one of those writers that need everyone that tries to do good, must inherently be an alcoholic or drama queen or super sob story either. Cyclops or Jack from Lost...

I'll write Half-Orcs that are immensely strong, but not the strongest Orcs ever. Nor are they slaves to their strength or their super +5 great ax of bloody hacking death. Orcs that won't like that they're treated poorly but nonetheless accept their poor situation because it is what it is, just like normal people, until there is a legitimate chance to change it for the better. I'll give a reason for that mentality such as their still-living mother lives in that village or the adopted father who took them in taught them to control their anger until they can unleash it effectively.

I'll write Elves that are agile, but hardly the best ballerina to exist. Elves that chafe at the stagnant defensive and isolationist mindset of the elders, the same mindset that further drives their people into deeper parts of the wood or magically hidden realms that are slowly falling to evil enemies that pursue them regardless of the losses the Elves inflict or whatever super magic they use to protect themselves. Then they'll have a reason, such as watching the tree they planted as a child cut down by Humans or Orcs, and begging the elders to allow the Elf to act. Unfortunately the Elders only use it as another reason to withdraw further from the world.
MarkusTay63
03-21-08, 04:52 PM How about something brand new, then?

Low Darkness Vision?

It acts as Low Light Vision under most circumsatnces, but also allows them Darkvision at half the ability (30 ft), with no light sensitivity.

Think of it as a racial evolution for the surface-dwelling ones. Dwarves who spend most of their time on the surface should have this same thing - only Duergar, Derro, and some of the 'deep clans' should have true Darkvision.

Anything with true Darkvision should have Light Sensitivity, and thats why the Dwarven ability always bothered me. If they have Darkvision, why are their halls always lit with torches? :confused:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kend 02-16-08, 11:26 AM	I'm considering writing a story about an ancient Grey Orc from the Orcgate Wars that is awakened in modern Faerun. When I looked up the Grey Orcs, I noticed they didn't have Darkvision, but they still had lightsensitivity. These are the Grey Orc stats: Gray orcs all possess the following racial traits: * +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Gray orcs are not as strong as mountain orcs, but they tend to be much more independent and strong-willed. * Medium-size. * Gray orc land speed is 40 feet. Their gait is long and loping and they can cover great distances quickly. * Proficient with the greataxe and longbow; gray orcs train with weapons from childhood. * Light Sensitivity (Ex): Gray orcs suffer a -1 penalty on attack rolls in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. * Scent (Ex): Gray orcs have the scent ability, as detailed in the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide. * Orc Blood: For all special abilities and effects, a gray orc is considered an orc. Gray orcs, for example, can use or create orc weapons and magic items with racially specific orc powers as if they were orcs. Found here: Grey Orcs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a) My question is, is this a typo or do the Grey Orcs lack the nightvision their kin enjoy? I think it's kind of foolish for them to be light sensitive without it. It could simply be balance for their scent power and speed but it's a poor act of balancing. In my mind, Orc's Darkvision is one of the Orc's primary traits, right up there with their physical strength. As fellow FR fans and people who would look into this, would you find the addition of Darkvision among their powers unfair or not keeping to the lore? By nature, I'm the kind of person that doesn't like it when people violate the lore or utterly break it in their own interest. Unfortunately this stumps me. Sorry if someone has already brought this up and I missed it.
MarkusTay63 02-16-08, 11:34 AM	They were designed to be a suface-dwelling nocturnal species, as opposed to a cave-dwelling subterranean species. Considering the +1 level adj, I would definately ditch the light-sensitvity. Or better yet, keep it and ditch the level adj - it's really not worth a +1 as is. You know, this thread makes me think - why the hell did the have the feral Mountain Orcs form a new Kingdom, rather then these guys who are already much more civilized and closer to the WoW Orcs they are going for. That Wisdom bonus just screams 'Druid' to me. :rolleyes:
Kend 02-16-08, 01:09 PM	It seems these are the more lawful Orcs then chaotic ones. Yes, of course they are barbarians and that is probably the majority, which means chaos. I agree with you about the druids, but they're probably trying to keep away from the connection to Eberron. Also, Druids are generally seen as good or neutral nature aligned, while these Orcs are inherently painted as evil. When you take in their favored class is Cleric, the way I view it, if an Orc in the Tribe/clan shows discipline he's placed with the clerics. Otherwise, he's thrown at the warriors with the rest of the pups. I realize there are chaotic priests, but the discipline, the meditation, and the service to a deity would appear to be lawful instead of chaotic. Your point that they are nocturnal surface creatures is a good one. At the same time, what's the likeliness that a nocturnal creature isn't going to have extra-ordinary night sight? Or at least low-light vision? An example to me would be someone trying to say, "They're elves...but they don't have low-light vision..." There would be a riot. I'd rather keep the light-sensitivity and +1 level adjustment while giving them low-light or darkvision. I'm leaning towards darkvision because the vast majority of monstrous creatures are gifted with it. It simply ties into the Orc lore. I like the imagery of an Orc horde wincing as the dawn breaks, weakened but far from helpless.
MarkusTay63 02-17-08, 12:47 AM	Give them the lowlight then - it's a good compromise.
talsharien 02-26-08, 05:21 PM	It seems daft to me that Grey Orcs do not receive Darkvision. I have removed the level adj and added low-light rather than dark.
Ogrebear 03-03-08, 07:32 PM	I ran this past several GM and rules lawyers I know and they all said ditch the +1 LA and light sensitivity then add low light vision. Like the Sharakim the Grey Orcs did not deserve an LA adjustment imho.
Kend 03-08-08, 09:12 AM	Thanks for the replies everyone, I think I'm going with the low-light and eliminating the racial adjustment.
Neveroth 03-17-08, 01:01 PM	With a base speed of 40 and Scent (which people here seem to neglect or underestimate for some unknown reason), a +1 LA isn't really that bad (especially if you can buy it off). Take a look at hobgoblins. It's fine the way it is, but I'd say adding darkvision would be fair. If you remove both light sensitivity and the level adjustment, the grey orc would become almost unbalanced. All their features are very useful throughout the campaign (unlike drow and planetouched spell-likes for instance). And let's not forget that the Quick trait (which adds 10ft. to base speed) has a penalty of 1 hp/level. Then again, when you consider whisper gnomes and alike, the line seems blurry.
Kend 03-17-08, 10:15 PM	I agree that scent is a powerful attribute, both for roleplaying and in-game mechanics. Their speed is also a powerful addition, particularly when you take into account that other then clerics, a majority of their character classes will be barbarians which adds another +10. A base speed of fifty is pretty impressive, that's straight running down horses. I like light sensitivity with Orcs. It adds that creatures of the darkness, monsters of the night feel to them. I like that concept and imagery of nocturnal Orcs moving in a horde under the moonlight. My end decision was to give them darkvision 60 feet, keep the light sensitivity and the +1 level adjustment. Mountain Orcs have darkvision, Half-Orcs have darkvision, Orogs have Darkvision, Tanarukk have darkvision. There's a pattern here... To me, not adding darkvision was either a mistake someone ran with or a poor decision that someone didn't think all the way through.
Kuros81 03-17-08, 11:48 PM	+1 LA seems a bit extreme, but without the LA the class is too powerful, even with light-sensitivity and no Dark-vision. How about a +1 LA but also 1d8 HD? I don't know how that would play out exactly for a 1st level Grey Orc Druid's skills, feats, etc.
Neveroth 03-18-08, 02:06 AM	My end decision was to give them darkvision 60 feet, keep the light sensitivity and the +1 level adjustment. Good call. That's how I use them. EDIT: Just out of curiosity, why do you even care about stats if you're just writing a story? :)
Aldareth 03-18-08, 02:15 AM	i would just add low light vision, they are surface hunters living on plains, low light vision to hunt under the light of stars would be enough. keep the darkvision for the cave/undergroundliving creatures
Neveroth 03-18-08, 03:18 AM	Minor difference. Maybe thematically more fitting, but it doesn't make much sense for a low-light vision surface-dwelling creature to have light sensitivity either.
Kend 03-19-08, 06:24 PM	I agree that they're surface hunting creatures, but so are Ogres who have Darkvision. Apples and oranges maybe, but Orcs of any kind should have Darkvision allowing them to see in any environment, instead of lowlight which allows them to establish color at night but leave them blind in absolute darkness. The key reason why I used darkvision is because I see Orc's abilities as practical over useful. Its useful to be able to establish color in a low-light incidence. Yet Orcs don't care about colors, they wouldn't consider the meaning, they would make a split second decision on whether or not to attack. I like using stats and actual mechanics in my stories, it gives me boundaries and guidelines for characters' abilities. It helps maintain the continuity of the story as well as reminds me of the characters limits. What's that quote, "We like people for their strengths but love them for their weaknesses?" I hate super characters whose be all end all response is one attribute or power. I particularly hate it when those attributes are used because the author is simply unoriginal or lack creativity. Superman... I'm not one of those writers that need everyone that tries to do good, must inherently be an alcoholic or drama queen or super sob story either. Cyclops or Jack from Lost... I'll write Half-Orcs that are immensely strong, but not the strongest Orcs ever. Nor are they slaves to their strength or their super +5 great ax of bloody hacking death. Orcs that won't like that they're treated poorly but nonetheless accept their poor situation because it is what it is, just like normal people, until there is a legitimate chance to change it for the better. I'll give a reason for that mentality such as their still-living mother lives in that village or the adopted father who took them in taught them to control their anger until they can unleash it effectively. I'll write Elves that are agile, but hardly the best ballerina to exist. Elves that chafe at the stagnant defensive and isolationist mindset of the elders, the same mindset that further drives their people into deeper parts of the wood or magically hidden realms that are slowly falling to evil enemies that pursue them regardless of the losses the Elves inflict or whatever super magic they use to protect themselves. Then they'll have a reason, such as watching the tree they planted as a child cut down by Humans or Orcs, and begging the elders to allow the Elf to act. Unfortunately the Elders only use it as another reason to withdraw further from the world.
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 04:52 PM	How about something brand new, then? Low Darkness Vision? It acts as Low Light Vision under most circumsatnces, but also allows them Darkvision at half the ability (30 ft), with no light sensitivity. Think of it as a racial evolution for the surface-dwelling ones. Dwarves who spend most of their time on the surface should have this same thing - only Duergar, Derro, and some of the 'deep clans' should have true Darkvision. Anything with true Darkvision should have Light Sensitivity, and thats why the Dwarven ability always bothered me. If they have Darkvision, why are their halls always lit with torches? :confused: