Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GabrielX 03-03-07, 03:14 PM	What would the racial traits be? Would they be more Sun or Drow? Would the traits mix and blend? Would it be simulair to the half-drow but with the Sun elf traits for the elven traits? Also why is it always a human mating with an elf and not elf mixing the sub-races? With the followers of Ellistree (forgive spelling if it is wrong) why not a Drow/Moon, Drow/wood, Drow/Sun; mix? Plus if any of the sub-races where ever to mix the most realistic would be the Drow/Sun... they are about the same when it comes to greed of power!
Khaelieth 03-03-07, 03:49 PM	It would be a drow, when surface elves mate with drow, it's almost always a drow as a child. Though, I might be wrong.
Zanan 03-03-07, 04:48 PM	Be definition and canon lore, elves "breed" true. There are no half-drow/half-wilds or half-wilds/half-suns. Or do you want hypothetical answers?
Duedaine 03-03-07, 05:06 PM	Be definition and canon lore, elves "breed" true. There are no half-drow/half-wilds or half-wilds/half-suns. Or do you want hypothetical answers? No. There was one book in the return of the Archwizards trilogy, where a sun elf bladesinger wed a wood elf. Albeit, it didn't go too well for him, but it DOES happen!
Duedaine 03-03-07, 05:08 PM	It's likely they would be dark complected but a little fairer than drow. The abilities/ bonuses would be a random mixing as per genetics.
Zanan 03-03-07, 05:46 PM	No. There was one book in the return of the Archwizards trilogy, where a sun elf bladesinger wed a wood elf. Albeit, it didn't go too well for him, but it DOES happen! Well, an ogre could wed with an elf, but that does not mean that we will see half-ogre/half-elves. ;) Unless something was described in that novel saying differently, the child would either be a sun or a wood elf. He/she/it might look a bit differently, but this does not necessarily reflect in game terms. With regard to the FR elves, the non-intermix thing was cast into stone pretty early. So as I said, we could speculate without problem, but in-setting, it does not work.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-04-07, 01:55 PM	What would the racial traits be? Would they be more Sun or Drow? Would the traits mix and blend? Would it be simulair to the half-drow but with the Sun elf traits for the elven traits?The rules state that it would be a 50% chance of being either a drow or sun elf. Determine randomly. The traits would not blend, but you can allow minor appearance differences (such as Drizzt having purple eyes due to some surface elf interbreeding somewhere back in his bloodline...)
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 07:57 PM	The rules state that it would be a 50% chance of being either a drow or sun elf. Determine randomly. -I recall reading somewhere (Perhaps Races of Faerûn) that when Drow intermingle with other Elven subraces, the offspring of such "intermingling" are usually Drow themselves.
Zireael 03-05-07, 04:01 AM	Yes, it's said so in many sources.
Green Elven Vampire 03-05-07, 04:17 AM	No. There was one book in the return of the Archwizards trilogy, where a sun elf bladesinger wed a wood elf. Albeit, it didn't go too well for him, but it DOES happen! He was a moon elf, not a sun elf. He was married to a copper elf, but their children were moon elves as well. People, whenever two sub-races of elves mate, they have children that are either fully one sub-race or fully the other, not a mix of both.
Narsil 03-05-07, 04:59 AM	I basically use the stats of the drow parent, save for the fact that I remove spell-like abilities and spell resistance, reduce the sunlight weakness to being dazzled for 1d4+4 rounds, add a dash of low-light vision, and I reduce the Level Adjustment to +1
Nocci 03-07-07, 04:36 AM	I believe it is mentioned in a novel somewhere, seen from the Drow perspective (forgive me, I haven't slept and my memory lapses) that such an abomination as a Drow intermingled with a Surface-Elf, would always procure a pure Drow offspring. This is, by the narrator or speaker or whatnot, explained as the blood of the Drow being naturally stronger and more resilient than that of their surface cousins... :rolleyes: I did the research in order to find this a few years ago when the question arose with one of my own ("half") Drow characters. To make things clear about -actual- Half-Drow, a Human, having a child with a Drow (or vice versa) would create what may be found in various source books as just that. I hope it helps in some way... :D
Alac Luin 03-07-07, 10:07 AM	I believe it is mentioned in a novel somewhere, seen from the Drow perspective (forgive me, I haven't slept and my memory lapses) that such an abomination as a Drow intermingled with a Surface-Elf, would always procure a pure Drow offspring. This is, by the narrator or speaker or whatnot, explained as the blood of the Drow being naturally stronger and more resilient than that of their surface cousins... :rolleyes: I did the research in order to find this a few years ago when the question arose with one of my own ("half") Drow characters. To make things clear about -actual- Half-Drow, a Human, having a child with a Drow (or vice versa) would create what may be found in various source books as just that. I hope it helps in some way... :D That sounds like the statement made in the Novel Evermeet. It was made, not by a drow, but a pre-drow or proto-drow, back in the days before the desent.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-07-07, 06:21 PM	Races of Faerun says 50/50. Player's choice really.
Zanan 03-08-07, 04:04 AM	That sounds like the statement made in the Novel Evermeet. It was made, not by a drow, but a pre-drow or proto-drow, back in the days before the desent. You could also call them Dark Elves, you know ;). Methinks in the Vhaeraun entry of Demihuman Deities it is stated that the deity encourages his followers to reproduce with humans (and elves), as any off-spring, i.e. half-drow, who mates with a drow again will produce drow. (DD, p.38)
Alediran 03-09-07, 02:29 PM	Elaine also stated this in Daughter of the Drow.
Treymordin 03-13-07, 06:20 PM	I remember in 1st edition that drow half elves had none of the advanatages of being a drow but all of the other penalties.
rolig 03-15-07, 05:18 PM	Anyone ever played deamonstone... where you have a half Drow/ halv Wood elf? Thus she really looks more like a drow...
Treymordin 03-16-07, 12:02 AM	What is demonstone? Is that Salvatore's world?
Narsil 03-16-07, 04:18 AM	What is demonstone? Is that Salvatore's world? Demonstone is a hack-and-slash computer game - on the X-Box, PC and PS2 - which happens to be a pretty awesome game on the quiet of things. Among all of the controllable characters is a Half-Drow/Half-Sylvan rogue with a pair of Legolas-esque knives and a bad attitude.
Khaelieth 03-16-07, 04:22 AM	Demonstone is a hack-and-slash computer game - on the X-Box, PC and PS2 - which happens to be a pretty awesome game on the quiet of things. Among all of the controllable characters is a Half-Drow/Half-Sylvan rogue with a pair of Legolas-esque knives and a bad attitude. Argh, Drizzt meets Legolas... This could lead Drizzt's worshippers to believe that Legolas is an aspect of Drizzt.
Green Elven Vampire 03-16-07, 06:45 AM	50/50 players choice!
Alediran 03-16-07, 11:12 AM	Argh, Drizzt meets Legolas... This could lead Drizzt's worshippers to believe that Legolas is an aspect of Drizzt. :rofl: That would be awesome to see :D
Treymordin 03-16-07, 05:08 PM	I like Legolas' knives, what would they be considred in game terms?
Tevin Kevlak 03-16-07, 05:18 PM	Daggers. Possibly a stylized version of a short sword but it seems like kind of a stretch... maybe even Kukri's. Take your pick.
Narsil 03-18-07, 01:07 PM	Argh, Drizzt meets Legolas... This could lead Drizzt's worshippers to believe that Legolas is an aspect of Drizzt. I wouldn't say it's Drizzt meets Legolas. If it is, then there's also a third category to consider due to a slight difference in Zhai's reproductive organs. There's also characterisation (she happens to be a bit of a cynical backstabbing rogue), fighting style and a preference for throwing knives when it comes to fighting at long-range.
BrennonGoldeye 03-18-07, 01:45 PM	It is interesting to note the existance of FR wood elves. :thinks:
Max the Immortal 03-23-07, 02:04 AM	The offspring of two elves of different subraces will be of one subrace or the other. When one of the parents is a drow, the offspring is much more likely, but not guaranteed, to be a drow (according to the Daughter of the Drow trilogy). In the novel Evermeet, a dark elf (this was pre-Descent) character claims that the offspring is always a dark elf (due to the dark elves' "genetic superiority"), but I got the impression that he was either lying or repeating propaganda.
Khaelieth 03-23-07, 04:38 AM	It is interesting to note the existance of FR wood elves. :thinks: They are a mix of all the surface elf subraces, and I think they lack a chromosome or two, they've got -2 int. So it's a mutation in elven DNA
GothicDan 03-23-07, 07:01 AM	Well, you can't 'mix all surface elven races' in any meaningful way, which is what this is about. And I wouldn't rely on purely biological reasoning, either, since Elves were not created naturally or evolved naturally. Pretty much each and every one of their subraces was due to magic and/or divine interaction.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-23-07, 04:52 PM	Drow are dominant. Though (after the horror that was the 'Underdark Module,' which I bought for Lore) I began playing with non-elves and non-drow. One of them was a Blue Elf (my own race, half Drow half Moon, less pointed ears than most, bluish skin, etc. etc.) An elf, but not exactly... It's hard to explain. Feel free to do what you want. I still have trouble with Lord Shadow being who he is, so, in my games, he is the current Lord Shadow, not the one that was unknown, but his apprentice.
Treymordin 03-23-07, 09:45 PM	Odd and not a very clear last post.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-23-07, 10:37 PM	Odd and not a very clear last post. "Drow will produce drow when coupled with other elves, but feel free to do what you want. It's YOUR Realms. Not everything has to be canon." Does that dumb it down enough for you?
Critalondel 03-25-07, 10:28 AM	Don't go gettin' all snitty. It didn't need dumbing down, it was just -- like he said -- odd and not terribly clear.
GothicDan 03-25-07, 10:43 AM	Actually, from someone who regularly analyzes and picks on the wording and spelling and the like of posters here, I have to say that there's little unclear or confusing about that particular post (other than perhaps the use of passive voice).
JaiaDrottsingr 03-25-07, 01:27 PM	Actually, from someone who regularly analyzes and picks on the wording and spelling and the like of posters here, I have to say that there's little unclear or confusing about that particular post (other than perhaps the use of passive voice). I feel strange, like I've been supported or something I said was agreed with. Odd. This feeling should not be in validated existance at this time! i like working by meself. Post Script Thanks much
Maquissar 03-27-07, 03:36 PM	I have no idea what a Hafl Drow / Half Sun elf would turn out to be, but I do have an interesting Half Drow combo a friend of mine came up with back in 94. Funny thing is I just finished a novel that had this combo in it too. Go figure, he should have gotten royalties LOL. Anyway, it's a Half Drow / Half Orc. We call it a DORK. Lisa Smedman called him Jub in the new novel Sacrifice of the Widow. Maquissar
Rasputen_Bel_Kuhr 03-28-07, 09:59 AM	I remember reading - and i apologise if this has alreay been said as i'm lazy and didn't read all the posts - that if two elves of two different subraces breed there is a 50/50 chance of being one or the other.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-28-07, 04:46 PM	Anyway, it's a Half Drow / Half Orc. We call it a DORK. Lisa Smedman called him Jub in the new novel Sacrifice of the Widow. Maquissar Not funny. And they're called Drorcs (That's what I'd call it). That's more polite, anyways. You DORK. I remember reading - and i apologise if this has alreay been said as i'm lazy and didn't read all the posts - that if two elves of two different subraces breed there is a 50/50 chance of being one or the other. Drow are dominant. Drow + Drow = Drow. Drow + Moon = Drow. Drow + Sun = Drow. Drow + Wild = Drow. Drow + Aquatic = --What the?! How would that happen?!!-- A Drow.
Another Gnome 03-28-07, 06:08 PM	Being a dominant trait doesn't guarantee something always happening, though.
Critalondel 03-29-07, 02:04 AM	Drow are dominant. Drow + Drow = Drow. Drow + Moon = Drow. Drow + Sun = Drow. Drow + Wild = Drow. Drow + Aquatic = --What the?! How would that happen?!!-- A Drow. Most of the time, yes. Dominant traits aren't a 100% thing, though.
Zandilar 03-29-07, 07:09 AM	Heya, Most of the time, yes. Dominant traits aren't a 100% thing, though. In Real Life(tm), sure. In a world where magic regularly interferes with genetics? I can see Lolth gifting her children with 100%-dominant-over-other-Elf-subraces genes. It's just the Drow supremacist sort of thing she might do. ;) Though magic (particularly of the divine kind) might be able to change that. I'm sure if a Drow and their non-Drow Elf partner prayed to the right gods, it could be changed.
Dark_Wolf 04-12-07, 09:44 PM	In the daughter of the drow triligy second book. One of the main bad guy drow I can't remember his name was at his bace on the surface and was looking at the half moon elf and half drow children. In the story he is thinking that since the mating of serface elves and drow resolt in dark children thin they should conquer by breading the other elves out. I am a DM and i would have all half drow children born dark mybe not as dark as a true drow but u can tell that one parent was a drow with some traits of the non drow parent like golden hair if it was a sun elf drow mix or stronger if it was a wild elf drow mix. I would not have them have all the specail abilitys that drow have unless they grew up in the underdark. Its the strange magic given off in the underdark that gives them there magic. Like how some of drittz's drow powers are weakening becouse he has been away form the underdark.
GothicDan 04-12-07, 10:36 PM	I can see Lolth gifting her children with 100%-dominant-over-other-Elf-subraces genes. It's just the Drow supremacist sort of thing she might do. I don't know if Lolth would have the power for that. It might be a side effect of the curse itself as laid by the Seldarine.
Dxzauvrinn 04-15-07, 06:54 PM	Anyone ever played deamonstone... where you have a half Drow/ halv Wood elf? Thus she really looks more like a drow... Zhai (or whatever her name was) was a half-drow/half-wood elf, but statistically she was a wood elf. She just had some cosmetic drow features, as I assume any elven subrace mix would. It would just be one or the other, perhaps drow like 75 percent of time with cosmetic features of the other parent. A few months back, I played a drow with golden-white hair and golden eyes. Guess what kind of elf his grandfather was?
Critalondel 04-16-07, 11:13 AM	A few months back, I played a drow with golden-white hair and golden eyes. Guess what kind of elf his grandfather was? Keebler? :D
Dxzauvrinn 04-16-07, 08:23 PM	Keebler? :D YES!!! I can't believe someone actually got that right! :rofl:
Valenthalas 04-23-07, 11:51 AM	I would say 50/50 chance of being either subrace, as that is what the books state. But that is just one option, you could always try and do a true half/half version mingling their statistics and weaknesses, though with Drow dark-skin probably IS a dominant trait, albeit lighter than a full blooded Drow. Up to you mate.
Selvarin 04-26-07, 11:47 PM	Not funny. And they're called Drorcs (That's what I'd call it). That's more polite, anyways. You DORK. Drow are dominant. Drow + Drow = Drow. Drow + Moon = Drow. Drow + Sun = Drow. Drow + Wild = Drow. Drow + Aquatic = --What the?! How would that happen?!!-- A Drow. Incorrect. Last time I dealt with this issue, people were in a froth even though various sources were referenced by book and page number. Drow blood isn't more dominant than any other elven race in such unions, it's 50% chance of one or the other unless one is talking about a drow mating with a half-drow. In that instance, drow blood predominates. Using that same logic, the children of a moon elf and half-elf of moon elven descent would themselves be moon elven, aside from cosmetic differences. Pretty simple if you follow the logic. And if I must I'll go back to the sourcebooks in my library this weekend to further spell it out.
GothicDan 04-27-07, 01:45 AM	The Drow dominance was also brought up in the Windwalker trilogy by Elaine too, I thought.
Selvarin 04-27-07, 03:21 AM	The Drow dominance was also brought up in the Windwalker trilogy by Elaine too, I thought. That comes from the drow merchant Nisstyre (sp?), in Daughter of the Drow, whose thoughts were echoed on Pg. 42 of (2E) Demihuman Deities (under the listing for Vhaeraun): “Contact and marriage with other elven races is encouraged. Half-drow usually breed true back into the drow race; Vhaeraun sees this practice inexorably raising drow numbers in surface lands.” (Also found on page 43 of the 1E sourcebook Drow of the Underdark).” The author was basing it on game sources that were researched, from where there is no actual contradiction: Pg. 42 of the (1E) FR Campaign Set Book: “Crossbreeding is possible between the subraces, but in the case of the Elves, the child will either take after the male or female parent's race (there are no drow/moon Elf mongrels, and the child of such an unlikely union would either have all the traits of a dark Elf, or of a moon Elf).” Pg. 47 of the (1E) FR Campaign Set Book: “Half-elves may mate and breed, but will always produce the offspring of the other parent (a Half-elf/elf pairing will produce elven children, while a Half-elf/ human pairing will result in human children). Second generation Half-elves only result if two Half-elves marry (as is the case in Aglarond).” There's nothing in the original sources which indicates a dominance, per se. What the above suggests, however, are several possible ways in which 'breeding true' can come about, mainly through the use of surface elves (some of whom were acquired by his band) or humans. In the case of humans, Nisstyre would've been guaranteed to father half-drow. By breeding the half-drow with pure drow, their progeny would indeed be full-blooded drow (aside from an occasional cosmetic difference or two). I've read about drow bands in areas of the High Forest (and, later on, Cormanthor) which include half-drow, this would explain that as an easier means of increasing Vhaeraun's followers on the surface as a whole. It's also a little quicker. One could raise an army of half-drow in a relatively short time, an army that can then intermarry/breed with full-blooded drow in order to bring about more full-bloods.
GothicDan 04-27-07, 03:24 AM	Interesting. Daughter of the Drow was written by Elaine, who is perhaps the most well-researched author in FR (what with her getting manuscripts for UA before it was even published, to include a Star Elf, and the like), and Demihuman Deities was primarily written by Eric Boyd, who we all know is perhaps second only to Ed himself in lore and canonity. I think this is a question that is worthy of being posited to Ed himself.
Selvarin 04-27-07, 03:34 AM	Yep, indeedy. I don't think from a novel standpoint it matters much, as in some cases things are played out/written more like real life. In the meantime you could look at how Ed treated the notion of 'halfbloods' (half-dwarves) in FR. The rules for half-dwarves (and their breeding true) are almost the same. From FR11 Dwarves Deep: If halfbloods mate with pureblood dwarves, the offspring will be a pureblood. If halfbloods mate with another halfblood or a nondwarf, the offspring will be a halfblood. In this case the issue of dominance goes a step further.
Selvarin 04-28-07, 06:17 PM	...
Selvarin 04-28-07, 06:18 PM	I managed to track down what Nisstyre was thinking to himself in Daughter of the Drow. Pages 238 and 239 are as follows: “There were few females in the village, and of them only two were drow. One of the Masked Lord’s main directives was to increase the drow race, particularly on the surface. And so, unlike other drow, Vhaeraun’s people sought contact with other elves. Children of such unions tended to breed toward drow. Taking the long view, it was one way to eradicate the pale races of elves! “Nisstyre took his god’s instructions one step further: he kept a small harem of surface elves in the settlement. It was not ideal—Vhaeraun indicated there should be equality between males and females—but it was proving effective. With the coming of night, the village’s children were awakening. They ran about in play, staging mock battles and elaborate games of stealth and ambush. There was not a full drow among them, but most of the ebony-skinned elflings were as drow in appearance and temperament as any child of Menzoberranzen. There were among them a couple of black-haired, pale-skinned elf children, even a dusky half-drow lad. The boy was tolerated in the community, for Vhaeraun was not averse to a little human blood in his followers. It was a matter of necessity, for few drow females were willing to follow the Masked God into the Night Above. “Not that any of the village females were all that devout. Most of them were silver elves, and without exception the elf women were wretched outcasts who for one reason or another had no other place to call home. It was, Nisstyre acknowledged, hardly an auspicious way to begin a kingdom. “Yes, the lack of drow females was a problem, one Nisstyre planned to end. With the inducement of Liriel’s magic, he could entice more of the proud and powerful females into the Night Above. Drow tended to be more prolific than other elves, and only their constant, incessant warfare kept their numbers low. Once the drow became a united people, their strength would quickly reach nightmare proportions.” Here we have a problem, because DotD (which was published in the 90's) doesn't follow the rules as given in the original FR campaign sourcebook--the gist of which has been in reiterated in later editions. As was noted, the author in question is known for researching. So, what's the answer? What's written in the FR game books take precedence. Novels are known for being written a little looser with regard to accepted rules, etc., with the exception of campaign world timelines and characters. In the novelized setting, the rules on genetics can be plugged in, even though from a gaming perspective it junks things up. Humans are a different story, since the only thing that's affected if two types of humans mix is the resulting individual's home region (and thus access to certain feats at 1st level). So, from a game-mechanic perspective, the FR rules work best when it comes to this. Less clunk. Unless one wants to make use of the half-drow template from Plot & Poison (a Green Ronin publication from a few years ago). There were elf-drow outcasts in (1e) Vault of the Drow, admittedly a different setting than FR but I never minded in that case.