| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| The_Dancing_Cleric08-07-07, 08:22 AM | What Sub-race of Elves do you wish you could kill and what is the reason? Personally I wish i could kill the Sun Elves. hate that they seem to think that i they are so much better then everyone. What makes them so great? I just HATE Sun Elves. |
| Suin Bahhar08-07-07, 10:39 AM | Drow are the best subjects of critical hits. ^^ They go down so fast. They are really debased with all their ritual sacrifices and so I get to feel righteous when killing them. Oi, Killing sunelves is not righteous in the slightest! Whitnessed the killing of sun elven babies once... It was done by this drow crone on an altar. Dancing cleric, ever seen an sun elf sacrifice human babies perhaps in the past? Plus you wont get the fame and fortune on the surface of Fearun for killing sunelves... Drow heads give you a nice ransom. |
| GothicDan08-07-07, 01:01 PM | I hate Drow the most. (Sun Elves ARE better. + to Int and masters of arcane and divine magic? Come on!) |
| MaskedOne08-07-07, 02:16 PM | Hatred would require effort that I'm not willing to expend on an entire sub-race but if I'm going to provide generic responses (in this case such answers border on meaningless but aren't quite there). I'm most likely to avoid any form of wild elf (don't deal in wilderness much), get along with moon elves, provide basic courtesy to Star, Sea and Winged (Avariel) elves, irritate sun elves and shoot drow. |
| Zandilar08-07-07, 04:53 PM | Heya, I hate how the Sun Elves are often portrayed... but aside from that, I love all elves, especially Eilistraeean Drow. (Lolth Drow I don't hate, I just feel incredible sorrow for the bondage they've been sold into without realizing it.) |
| Lord Karsus08-08-07, 11:27 PM | -Rockseer Elves are unnecessary. -Sun Elves, as I mentioned on your other thread, are the elite and true scions of Elvendom. |
| Straploknight08-09-07, 12:00 AM | surface elves... |
| MarkusTay6308-09-07, 01:55 AM | Until I actually meet an Elf, I can't say I hate any of them. I have to admit those Keeblers annoy the hell out of me, though... :rolleyes: |
| Soltares08-09-07, 11:42 AM | I dislike winged elves / avariel and rockseer elves, as well as other 'niche' elves like 'Tundra elves' or whatever. My favorites are wild/wood elves, gray elves and aquatic elves. Also dark elves, but not all portrayals of dark elves... |
| Narsil08-09-07, 01:11 PM | Out of all of them? Either aquatic elves or star elves. Can't say as I hate drow because they make fantastic villains, and semi-decent protagonists if done right. I don't mind sun elves because the +2 to INT is extremely fun for the local wizard-playing bloke (me, usually). I can't say as I dislike moon elves due to moon elves usually being the nice ones. The wild elves are always fun to have about, make good little side-quests when you accidentally bump into them. One of my favourite psychic warrior characters was a wood elf; and they're also a nice lot of people overall. I don't have much of an opinion of winged elves since I don't really encounter them much, but I liked Aerie in BG2 and found the city of winged elves quite funny in HotU. Star elves I don't like for their fecking light bulb on the head idea. And I don't like swimming, and therefore I tend to dislike aquatic elves as a rule of thumb. Though I don't hate the aquatic elves. |
| Derren S.08-09-07, 02:09 PM | All elves except Sun, Moon, Drow and maybe Aquatic elves. You don't need more (especially not Star elves). |
| Lady_Mhaor08-09-07, 03:04 PM | All elves. . .except moon |
| Dimensional_Drifter08-10-07, 02:47 PM | I'm just wondering why you said "kill a subrace" instead of simply hating or disliking. Can't say I hate anyone, dislike a few individuals maybe, but I wouldn't think it right to kill off any race or subrace, even if they don't exist in this world. That is Nazi-level racism. Genocide. Not right at all. My least favorite subrace is simply the drow, because I tend to dislike their methods and beliefs, however that isn't to say they should be eliminated, because they are needed to offset the primarily good-aligned surface elven subraces and provide conflict for story purposes. Some sun elf individuals are arrogant fanatics to the point of annoyance, but they shouldn't be slain for that reason (though Nimesin may be an exception although you can't blame sun elves for that, and he may be insane) besides fanatical thinking and arrogance are not limited to gold elves, humans and other races too have their share of undesirable traits. I do tend to favor moon elves and aquatic elves though. |
| arveiaturace_nartheling08-10-07, 09:28 PM | i like the winged elfs and the star elf light over head is wierd but a rare gem with all of the grays,suns, i must likly kill sun elfs i enjoy elfs that are rare. i have 5 star elfs in my living room... really |
| Lord Karsus08-11-07, 12:05 AM | All elves except Sun, Moon, Drow and maybe Aquatic elves. -So, wait. Derren, you like Sun Elves? |
| Derren S.08-11-07, 01:16 PM | -So, wait. Derren, you like Sun Elves? No, especially not the way they are potrayed in novels (super lawful even though they are chaotic). But they, like drow, are too established in the realms to simply remove them so that you have only one elven race which makes sense. So they are a neccessary evil. |
| GothicDan08-11-07, 01:28 PM | No, especially not the way they are potrayed in novels (super lawful even though they are chaotic). Wait. Why do you think they're chaotic? I crunched the numbers. Statistically, Sun Elves are more likely to be Lawful than Moon Elves. And in 2E, Corellon allowed Lawful Clerics (most likely specifically for Sun Elves). I'm just curious what gives you the impression that the novels are wrong with the statistics and sourcebooks back them up, too. |
| MarkusTay6308-11-07, 02:34 PM | I would make one change to Derren's list. Moon Elves are the 'common' Elves we see oft-times as humans. Drow are the 'in-your-face' bad guys that will cut out your liver while cracking jokes. Gold Elves are the 'insidious threat' - racial supremacists to the extreme (yeah, I know there are 'lberals' among them, but the "Some of my best friends are human" crowd is worse then the ones who are at least honest about it). They plot, they plan... they'll even steal your Nether scrolls just to undermine your magical capabilities (claiming they are doing it because "such a childish species are too immature to handle such magics properly"). They won't cut out your liver while laughing, they'll stab you in the back an actually appear remorseful about it. Give me an honest villain any day. :smirk: However, I would surely keep those three iconoclastic groups, even the devious Gold Elves. ;) The Sea-Elves though, should be ret-conned IMHO. They should be the same EXACT race as Tritons in 3e - why do we need so many undersea races when no-one I know of has EVER played an undersea campaign? Make the little 5' Tritons an off-shoot of the Elves (another child of the Fey?) and be done with it. Sea Elves are Elves that build ships and live on or near the Sea - not beneath it! Thats a pure D&D fabrication - there are NO sea Elves and that is that. If they live in the water, then they are a different race entirely. When you breath a different medium, you are NOT a sub-race!!! You are a seperate species (same goes for Avariels). |
| GothicDan08-11-07, 02:41 PM | I was actually doing a very extensive Sahuagin/Aquatic Elf culture/campaign/etc. for awhile in my homebrewed world. :) It was fun! |
| Karsus the Mad08-11-07, 04:01 PM | What Sub-race of Elves do you wish you could kill and what is the reason? None. All elven subraces have their place in the Realms, and a purpose to fulfill. Most notably being either experiments in my laboratory, or as food for other things in there....but still a place and purpose;) |
| Climhazzard08-11-07, 05:43 PM | Elven Sub-Races that I like: Gold Elves: With +2 to Intelligence and longevity, I see gold elves as the reason for why the elven race is so advanced and alien. Their aloof manner and arrogance are surprisingly human, but they can be kind and noble at the same time. From racial supremacists to defenders of life, I find these guys to be surprisingly diverse for a so-called "pure" race of elves. And the reason they think they are better than every other race is this: they are. Live with it. Drow: Even with Drizz't clones and dominatrix psycho-priestesses, you have to admit that drow society is cool and easy to make into adventures. Even the surface drow are interesting, and no underground trip is complete without running into the stray drow patrol. Wild Elves: You want primitive elves living close to nature? Look no further than wild elves, the archetypal tree-hugging-bow-shotting-rangering semi-fey humanoids. Elven Sub-Races that I hate: Moon Elves: So we have civilized sun elves on one end, and barbaric wild elves on the other. And in the middle are moon elves, which is the only reason why they exist. If you want common and friendly elves, just have splinter group of sun elves and wild elves consorting with humans and making half-elves. Wood Elves: We already have wild elves, so WHY CREATE ANOTHER RACE OF RECLUSIVE WOODLAND ELVES!?!? These guys are even more specialized and boring than half-orcs, with their racial stats making them into good archers but little else. Get rid of them, different ability scores are no excuse for creative redundancy. Star Elves: Be a sun elf with the Otherworldy feat. Elven Sub-Races that I don't give a dire rat's ass about: Avariel: While I am annoyed by the fact that Wizards think we need a race of flying elves, I am (surprisingly) okay with the fact that they were created with their patron deity's meddling and are near extinction, but are making a comeback, much like the rest of the surface elves. I would rather have had Wizards attach the Winged template from SS to wild or sun elves rather than make a new race. (Note: I realize that the Avariel were created before the Winged template.) Aquatic Elves: Great, a race of elves whose primary difference from the others is that they live with Ariel and Sebastian, even when we have triton and merfolk. However, their flavor with the sahuagin and the ease of having a LA +0 aquatic race that is easy explain make me go "meh" when I first heard of them. Like the avariels, some generic aquatic template attached to wild elves would have been a better move, IMO. |
| Zandilar08-11-07, 07:56 PM | Heya, Wait. Why do you think they're chaotic? I crunched the numbers. Statistically, Sun Elves are more likely to be Lawful than Moon Elves. And in 2E, Corellon allowed Lawful Clerics (most likely specifically for Sun Elves). I'm just curious what gives you the impression that the novels are wrong with the statistics and sourcebooks back them up, too. No, actually. No source book backs it up, that I know of. (That last bit is important, as I'm about to make myself look like a fool if there is. ;)) The Elf entry in the Monster Manual lists Elves as Usually Chaotic Good (with the exception of Wood elves who are Usually Neutral). That is the only place an alignment is given for elves. Taken with the fact that nearly all of the Seldarine (as listed in Faiths and Avatars and then Faiths and Pantheons) are Chaotic Good, it's not a long bow to draw to expect most elves should be Chaotic Good. I believe if we take a step back into 2nd Ed Land, we'd find that the Forgotten Realms supplements to the Monstrous Manual would have had Gold Elves listed as Chaotic Good. This is just a guess on my half, since I never collected all the FR specific supplements. The Gold Elves we read about who seem to be Lawful could well comprise the exceptions to "Usually". We don't really know. Until they actually publish "Oh and Gold Elves are actually Lawful Good" (which is not actually how they've been portrayed, they seem more Lawful Neutral, with Evil tendencies more often than not), we only have the Monster Manual to go by. Having said all that, I'm willing to be corrected if someone can find a source that specifically gives Gold Elves a Lawful Good alignment. (And I wouldn't at all be surprised either, since it would explain a whole lot of stuff that doesn't seem to make sense regarding them.) |
| Lord Karsus08-11-07, 10:06 PM | The Elf entry in the Monster Manual lists Elves... The Gold Elves we read about who seem to be Lawful could well comprise the exceptions to "Usually". We don't really know. Until they actually publish "Oh and Gold Elves are actually Lawful Good" (which is not actually how they've been portrayed, they seem more Lawful Neutral, with Evil tendencies more often than not), we only have the Monster Manual to go by. -Generic Elves, yes. Sun Elves, however, are not generic Elves. |
| MarkusTay6308-12-07, 01:03 AM | Do you mean geriatric Elves? Most Elves don't live long enough to get that far. :D |
| msatran08-12-07, 01:34 AM | Actually, I'd like to kill the drow, but not for the reason that you folks think. Let's see. A strong matriarchal society, where women are powerful and men are second class citizens, that exists entirely in an underground environment where they never "see the light?" Carefully phrased metaphor for the racist view of African American Sexuality? I can't say it's like that now, but it very well may have been when they were created, and I've never been entirely comfortable with it. |
| Zandilar08-12-07, 07:58 PM | Heya, Let's see. A strong matriarchal society, where women are powerful and men are second class citizens, that exists entirely in an underground environment where they never "see the light?" Carefully phrased metaphor for the racist view of African American Sexuality? I can't say it's like that now, but it very well may have been when they were created, and I've never been entirely comfortable with it. Woah, now that is a very long bow to draw right there. I'm more offended by the idea that a matriarchal society is necessarily evil - which is actually the stronger implication - given that until we got Rashemen, it was just about the only matriarchal society portrayed in Dungeons and Dragons anywhere (note: I don't have a deep understanding of Greyhawk). I've never been comfortable with that aspect of drow society. Even Rashemen has it's problems as a so called matriarchal society - 1) It has a male figurehead ruler, and 2) male arcane spellcasters are treated as second class citizens and imprisoned and forced to make magical items (a very evil taint to the society). (Yes, I am well aware that there are other places in the Realms ruled by women - none of those places are matriarchies, though. Suitable male candidates would have an equal chance of coming to power in those places as women. Other places, like Cormyr, are rabidly patriarchal - to the point where if Alusair and Tanalasta had even a younger brother, he'd be King right now. This thread isn't the place to go into depth on this topic though, so I'll leave it at that.) |
| msatran08-12-07, 09:33 PM | You're forgetting that I have a very historicist bent, Zan. You know I'm always looking at things in different ways. The connections we're talking about were a lot easier to see in the mid 1970's when the game was originally produced. It's in no way the fault of wizards, I'm just saying the theory underlying my argument may in fact be more sound than you are giving credit for being. Actually, the Rashemi society concerns me not because of matriarchy, but because the society is so strict that it separates families into component parts should any of them have a talent for the art. "You're going to be a wizard. Now leave your parents behind. Unfortunately, your father is a wizard too, so he'll never see you again, and he lives in a cave." I have an entire campaign based around this. All it takes is one angry Vremyonni who misses his family. The tragedy is that his desire to see them has resulted in their deaths. Such is the nature of heroic fantasy. |
| DarkSongKnight08-12-07, 09:54 PM | I don't hate any elves. However, if I had to choose a least favorite subrace, it would be Lolthite drow. If they're not busy trying to earn the big ugly spider's favor, they're stabbing each other in the back. What a waste of effort and energy. No wonder they were banished to the Underdark. :P Some sun elves (not all) I dislike, but only because they allow their arrogance to corrupt them. Note, that this is different than their typical arrogance of elven superiority. I agree with them on that point. (With a + to Int, their wizards are very powerful, and they make classy clerics too.) Compared to the drow, whose clerics and wizards are limited by their society, sun elves totally trump their powers. If there was ever a race with oomph, it would be them. So they have a right to be arrogant in my opinion, they've earned it. As for those sun elves whose arrogance corrupts them... I'm talking about things like the Eldreth Veluuthra. They've dropped so low as to have the Seldarine abandon them outright! Sun elves are meant to be the backbone and strongholders/leaders of elven tradition and society, and to see that corrupted into a mockery of righteousness is horrible. Sun elves are like the last shining beacons of elven kind, unlike the other subraces (moon elves, wild elves, etc.) who have given up/settled with humans and other races. So corrupted sun elves would be my least favorite, after Lolthite drow. Actually, now that I think about it, corrupted sun elves are possibly as big an abomination as the drow, except that the sun elves usually still revere the Seldarine. Hmm... Why do I think sun elves would make grand paladins? Corellon should allow his chosen people that option... |
| boards08-12-07, 11:17 PM | I'd probably get rid of Lythari, Star Elves and Wood Elves. Sun Elves I'm not so fond of because they seem to look down on all other elves, trying to get them to act more like Sun Elves rather than appreciating the different lifestyles. Moon Elves would be my favourite with their zest for life and exploration. |
| Lord Karsus08-13-07, 01:03 AM | Carefully phrased metaphor for the racist view of African American Sexuality? -I'm not exactly sure how you see that. Gender roles, I can see, to a degree. But, sexuality? Care to expand on that? |
| GothicDan08-13-07, 02:04 AM | Zandilar, I crunched the numbers before for ALL published 1E and 2E Elven NPCs that had a specific subrace, to try to help debunk the 'Sun Elves are always evil' rumors (consequently, statistically, they are only 7& more evil!). I also crossed the Lawful vs. Chaotic among Moon and Sun Elves, and the Suns were more Lawful commonly enough to infer a trend. Also, as I said, there's the fact that Corellon allowed his Specialty Priests (his MOST holy of casters - even in 2E, CLERGY tended to be broader than the One Step rule, but Specialty Priests' alignments tended to be more stringent) to be ANY Good. There'd be no need for the inclusion of Lawful, when Corellon and the rest of the Seldarine are so powerfully Chaotic, unless a numerous minority of Elves who specifically worshiped Corellon were often Lawful. No 2E supplements that I can think of specifically stated the alignment of the various subraces of the Tel'Quessir. The Elves of the Monster Manual are obviously not applicable for completely different subraces. However, in the Complete Handbook of Elves, the Silvanesti were equated directly with the Ar'Tel-Quessir, and they were specifically stated to being LG in the Dragonlance CS. :) |
| GothicDan08-13-07, 02:12 AM | LK, it's common in African American cultures throughout the US to be controlled largely by the whims of the females, with the males tending to just sort of 'do the job to get things done.' I'd make some valid hypotheses about Evolutionary Psychology, and the fact that genetically and neurologically they are still closest to the original Hunter & Cave-Sitter/Gatherer cultures (the men just bring in the meat; the women rule all familial and social affairs), but I'm sure that would send some overly PC or sensitive member up in an inferno. ;) Remember: physiologically, we don't really evolve unless not doing so would otherwise result in death - and we're lucky enough to have a mutation that helps keep us alive to make babies. No one besides the Native Americans have even been in America long enough to evolve physically, because by the time the others got here, via the use of technology they had already broken out of the normal patterns of evolution by negating natural hazards and death. It's a bit of a tangent, maybe... I'd really love to see some cross-ethnic neurological studies done and released... But whatever unsavory truths that would be 'proven' to the 'public' would probably cause riots, on all sides. |
| Zanan08-13-07, 03:56 AM | I'd make some valid hypotheses about Evolutionary Psychology, and the fact that genetically and neurologically they are still closest to the original Hunter & Cave Gatherer cultures (the men just bring in the meat; the women rule all familial and social affairs), but I'm sure that would send some overly PC or sensitive member up in an inferno. ;) GD ... don't you think it were hard time back then, gathering caves and all? ;) |
| GothicDan08-13-07, 03:58 AM | It would've been! Maybe a hyphen there would make it more obvious that they were people who gathered and lived in caves. |
| Lord Karsus08-13-07, 09:42 AM | LK, it's common in African American cultures throughout the US to be controlled largely by the whims of the females, with the males tending to just sort of 'do the job to get things done.' -Yes, which is why I mentioned that I could see a connection between gender roles. |
| msatran08-13-07, 12:14 PM | This is what I like to refer to as a racist trope, so follow through with me here. During the seventies, there were many "Blaxploitation Films," the best of which were Sweet Sweetwater's Badass Song, the "Shaft" series, and anything with Pam Grier in it because she was hot! Many of these movies focussed on the trope that no matter how badass, evil, or tough a Blaxploitation hero was, his mother always had the power to drag him around by the ear. In this case, it's a Matron Mother. :) |
| Lord Karsus08-13-07, 12:36 PM | This is what I like to refer to as a racist trope, so follow through with me here. During the seventies, there were many "Blaxploitation Films," the best of which were Sweet Sweetwater's Badass Song, the "Shaft" series, and anything with Pam Grier in it because she was hot! Many of these movies focussed on the trope that no matter how badass, evil, or tough a Blaxploitation hero was, his mother always had the power to drag him around by the ear. In this case, it's a Matron Mother. :) -That would be gender roles, or gender filters, and not sexuality, then! |
| GothicDan08-14-07, 01:41 AM | Sexuality is sort of an overall mindset about all things related to sex and gender. |
| nightside_samurai08-14-07, 01:57 AM | I hate all Elves equally and with the same amount of loathing and desire to off them all...:D |
| MarkHall08-14-07, 03:00 AM | I'm not fond of the "expansion" subraces... Wild elves, avariel, star elves, etc. |
| msatran08-14-07, 03:06 AM | Uh, the implication of Blaxploitation movies was that all of the heroes were black, and all of their enemies were white and upper class, though there are a few that are really nasty. "Black Hitler." Yes, they REALLY made this movie. It IS really awful. |
| GothicDan08-14-07, 03:10 AM | Right before Gay Hitler.\ |
| MarkHall08-14-07, 03:27 AM | "It's springtime for Hitler and Germany..." |
| msatran08-14-07, 04:36 AM | Wow. You have WAY too much respect for Mel Brooks. I don't think even Mel Brooks considers himself a Blaxploitation artist other than Blazing Saddles, which the PC types have destroyed completely. I don't think you can FIND an original copy of this on DVD. And let me tell you, even though it's completely racist, I still love the original "The sheriff is a N*****" This wouldn't be nearly so funny if the sheriff didn't take himself hostage and say "One false move and the N***** gets it." Mel Brooks was a genius. |
| Lord Karsus08-14-07, 09:39 AM | Sexuality is sort of an overall mindset about all things related to sex and gender. -Not really. Sex has to do with the actual, physical body parts that a person has, or lacks. Gender has to do with how exactly they percieve themselves, and how others percieve them. I don't think you can FIND an original copy of this on DVD. -No, you can. And let me tell you, even though it's completely racist, I still love the original "The sheriff is a N*****" -The fact that something is completely racist, and/or in bad taste does not make it necessarily bad. It's just how you..."internally process it". For example, I was bored last night, and saw that th Comedy Central Roast to Flava Flav was on. I decided to watch it. Snoop Dogg was currently talking, and he said to one of the other fellow roasters (I am paraphrasing), "You are rich, no one likes you, and you are a dirty Jew...Will you be my lawyer?" Sure, that's certainly stereotypical and racist, but I laughed hysterically. This wouldn't be nearly so funny if the sheriff didn't take himself hostage and say "One false move and the N***** gets it." -An homage to the master himself, Bugs. Mel Brooks was a genius. -Indeed, he is. |
| MarkHall08-14-07, 12:45 PM | Wow. You have WAY too much respect for Mel Brooks. It's what popped into my head. Mel Brooks was a genius. Was? |
| Green Elven Vampire08-14-07, 01:27 PM | Mel Brooks IS a comic genius. And I hate Grasshopper elves! |
| GothicDan08-14-07, 09:00 PM | Not really. Sex has to do with the actual, physical body parts that a person has, or lacks. Gender has to do with how exactly they percieve themselves, and how others percieve them. And sexuality is both and more. :) For example: top vs bottom, dominant vs. submissive (not JUST the physical sex characteristics). I won't say more. It's not sex or gender, though they do affect such preferences. |
| msatran08-15-07, 05:57 PM | Dan is right on this one. According to some theorists, there are six genders. |
| Zandilar08-15-07, 07:42 PM | Heya, Dan is right on this one. According to some theorists, there are six genders. I thought it was five? Female Ferm Herm Merm Male Taking Herm to be hermaphrodite - with Ferm being more female, and Merm being more male. Anyway, it's just a hypothesis. An interesting one, though. :) |
| Lady_Mhaor08-15-07, 11:44 PM | LK, it's common in African American cultures throughout the US to be controlled largely by the whims of the females, with the males tending to just sort of 'do the job to get things done.' WHOA. .wtf? as part of the black or 'African American' community seriously wtf |
| MarkHall08-16-07, 02:16 AM | Please, really, aren't all elves a "sub-race"? ;-) |
| Lord Karsus08-16-07, 10:24 PM | WHOA. .wtf? as part of the black or 'African American' community seriously wtf -A large percentage (though perhaps not a majority) of Black families are run by a female- the single mother, and the elderly and wise matron are the two most common incarnations. This largely hails from the "deadbeat dad" problem. And sexuality is both and more. :) -Sexuality is influenced by both sex and gender, correct. Sex and gender are still two seperate ideas, however. |
| Lady_Mhaor08-17-07, 09:10 AM | -A large percentage (though perhaps not a majority) of Black families are run by a female- the single mother, and the elderly and wise matron are the two most common incarnations. This largely hails from the "deadbeat dad" problem. Oh . . .well. . . right . . when its explained to efficiently like that I cant really be angry. .. meh |
| Derren S.08-19-07, 09:07 AM | Wait. Why do you think they're chaotic? Zandilar already explained that. According to the PHB and MM elves are usually chaotic. The FRCS does not change the alignment of Sun Elves so they also are usually chaotic. In addition the alignment of Evermeet (where sun elves are the majority) is chaotic and the elven deities are nearly all chaotic. The only conclusion you can draw from that is that Sun Elves are chaotic and that the novels portray them false. |
| GothicDan08-19-07, 01:16 PM | No where in the PHB or the MM are the Elves of Faerun detailed. |
| Derren S.08-19-07, 02:27 PM | No where in the PHB or the MM are the Elves of Faerun detailed. They are in the FRCS. And what does the FRCS say? As in the PHB except... And Alignment is not part of that exception. |
| DarkSongKnight08-19-07, 03:16 PM | They are in the FRCS. And what does the FRCS say? As in the PHB except... And Alignment is not part of that exception. Well... if you look at it that way, most drow are "Chaotic Good", as their alignment isn't specifically stated as "Alignment: Usually Neutral Evil" in the FRCS. And we all know that isn't so. Also, the FRCS says "X elves have all the elven racial traits given in Chapter 2 of the Player's Handbook except as follows." Racial Traits, not necessarily alignment. And if I'm correct, alignment for elves isn't inherited, such as the alignment of fiends and such. Sun elves are often lawful because they are like the conservative branch of the elven race. The group that keeps "true" elven tradition and such alive, and the other somewhat whimsical elf subraces in check. Not only are there numerous gold elf NPCs who demonstrate this conservative streak, but the sun elves very society is described as lawful. Heres a quote form RoF "Sun elves have a strong tradition of rule by nobility, and most sun elf communities are ruled by a monarch who can trace his or her line back to the First Crown War." If that isn't "Lawful" I don't know what is. There may be exceptions (there always are), but many, many sun elves are, IMO, "Lawful." And yes, I play a "Chaotic Good" gold elf, but clerics must follow the alignment rules. I believe this is an exception of the "Lawful" alignment for the sun elves. And in all honesty, I've considered playing a moon elf instead of a gold elf for this simple reason. Perhaps the future FRCS will clear this up. Just my thoughts... |
| Derren S.08-19-07, 04:41 PM | Which still does not explain why Evermeet is listed as being CG. And to my knowledge there is absolutly nothing in any rule book which says that Sun Elves are lawful. Therfor they are like "normal" elves chaotic. |
| GothicDan08-19-07, 10:42 PM | There's no such thing as a "normal" elf. Describe a "normal" elf to me. And Evermeet may well be Chaotic, you're right. The majority of its population is made up of non-Nobles. It's the AVERAGE alignment (most common); there are more Moon Elves, Wood Elves, Lythari, and non-Lawful Sun Elves around than Sun Elves. But both statistics (NPCs), Corellon's allowed Priest alignments, and novel depictions have shown that Sun Elves prefer Law far more often than Moon Elves. |
| Zandilar08-20-07, 08:34 AM | Heya, There's no such thing as a "normal" elf. Describe a "normal" elf to me. You prolly won't like this... and I'm unsure if I like it myself really... but they're doing away with statistical differences between elven subraces in 4th Ed FR. All the differences will now be cosmetic/societal now. Anyway, a normal elf is the Elf in the Monster Manual - which is the Elf in the Player's Handbook... Which means that the Elf in the Monster Manual = Moon Elf (given that elves are no different). You could follow the logic that all the other Elven races (except Drow) are based on the PHB Elf, which is the Elf described in the MM... In which case, Sun Elves would be Usually Chaotic Good, since alignment is not an exception listed in FRCS. The other thing to bear in mind is that going right back to AD&D, there were two elven subraces... High Elves (upon whom the Moon Elves are based), and Grey Elves (confusing, yes, but Sun Elves are based on them).. In the 2nd Ed MM that I have on my shelf, there's no separate listing of stats for the subraces, and the differences between them are said to be cosmetic, the alignment listed in the Elf entry is Chaotic Good... But I suppose it's worth it to note that Grey Elves have always been written as "more serious minded" than their other Elven kin, even if their alignment isn't different). Now we can argue this back and forth forever probably, and not come to any agreement. It's all good, though. There is a definite trend towards Lawful in the way Sun Elves have been portrayed in fiction. I just wish they'd sit down and say Elves are Usually Neutral Good once and for all, like they did changing Drow from Chaotic Evil to Neutral Evil... It would make more sense, IMHO, and would better explain Corellon's acceptance of LG clerics in 2nd Ed, and allow LG clerics once again in 3rd Ed. (They would probably need to change all the Seldarine to NG as well, with the exception of those who aren't CG to start with.) |
| Lord Karsus08-20-07, 10:00 AM | You prolly won't like this... and I'm unsure if I like it myself really... but they're doing away with statistical differences between elven subraces in 4th Ed FR. All the differences will now be cosmetic/societal now. -Really? That's more than halfway retarded...:nonono: Anyway, a normal elf is the Elf in the Monster Manual - which is the Elf in the Player's Handbook... Which means that the Elf in the Monster Manual = Moon Elf (given that elves are no different). -That's pure conjecture on your part. While you see Moon Elves as "normal PHB/MM Elves", others might see Wood Elves, or something else. And, of course, the PHB/MM Elves are completely different from Moon Elves, Wood Elves, Sun Elves, and so on, so drawing parallels is a very shakey thing, anyway. like they did changing Drow from Chaotic Evil to Neutral Evil... -They changed Drow from Chaotic Evil to Neutral Evil? |
| Derren S.08-20-07, 11:16 AM | There's no such thing as a "normal" elf. Describe a "normal" elf to me. And Evermeet may well be Chaotic, you're right. The majority of its population is made up of non-Nobles. It's the AVERAGE alignment (most common); there are more Moon Elves, Wood Elves, Lythari, and non-Lawful Sun Elves around than Sun Elves. But both statistics (NPCs), Corellon's allowed Priest alignments, and novel depictions have shown that Sun Elves prefer Law far more often than Moon Elves. A normal elf is an elf as portrayed in the MM. And according to the FRCS those default elves are called moon elves in teh FR as they are exactly the same. Sun elves have a different stat array but otherwise are not different and that includes the alignment. A normal Sun Elf is chaotic. The FRCs doesn't say that Sun Elf alignment is different from the default elf alignment and the Evermeet alignment is CG. When Sun elves would not be CG this would not be possible as they make up 50% of the population of Evermeet. So whenever you see a LG Sun Elf you see a oddball Elf which is totally out of touch with the rest of elvenkind and in no way a representation of the typical member of his (sub)race. |
| Lord Karsus08-20-07, 12:34 PM | A normal elf is an elf as portrayed in the MM. And according to the FRCS those default elves are called moon elves in teh FR as they are exactly the same. Sun elves have a different stat array but otherwise are not different and that includes the alignment. -Again, to call a "Normal" (Sylvan?) Elf a Moon Elf is incorrect, no matter what the FRCS, MM, or any other sourcebooks say. That is akin to saying that Cavemen are Humans. Yes, they are both mammals, they both are bipeds, they both create(d) and use(d) tools, and a bunch of other similarities. But, as we all know, Cavemen are not Humans. "Normal" (Sylvan?) Elves can have a whole host of similarities with Moon Elves, but they are not Moon Elves- not biologically, not culturally, not physiologically, and so on... |
| GothicDan08-20-07, 05:59 PM | Zandilar, thanks for at least trying to view things with an open mind as to various canon facts from different sources... I forgot I was "discussing" with Derren, and my 'logic' center failed. I'll try not to make that mistake again. |
| Derren S.08-20-07, 06:06 PM | Are you already out of arguments Dan so that you have to result to insults? Do you actually have any source which does even remotly say that Sun Elves as a race are lawful? I bet you don't have one, but your argue that anyway because the few dozens Sun Elves detailed in novels behaved lawfully and it can't be that the novel authors make a mistake. No the game rules are wrong.... You seem to think that somehow the "nobles" are a sub race to normal sun elves but that is not the case. And according to your answer about Evermeets population you also seem to know very well that the non noble sun elves (= the majority) are chaotic and mostly only the nobles are lawful. But those few nobles do not have any effect on the alignment of the subrace. When most of the sun elves are CG it is likely that the race is drawn towards CG behavior and that those foew nobles are exceptions to that (oddballs). It also makes sense that most (all) so called nobles are lawful as a highly chaotic person wouldn't give much about inherited nobility. |
| Zandilar08-20-07, 06:22 PM | Heya, -Really? That's more than halfway retarded...:nonono: Apparently, though, there will be racial feats you can take that will differentiate them... I'm reserving judgment until I see it on paper. -That's pure conjecture on your part. While you see Moon Elves as "normal PHB/MM Elves", others might see Wood Elves, or something else. And, of course, the PHB/MM Elves are completely different from Moon Elves, Wood Elves, Sun Elves, and so on, so drawing parallels is a very shakey thing, anyway. For the Moon Elf entry in the FRCS, it says "As Player's Handboook, except". The exception listed are languages, not alignment. The Player's Handbook Elves are the same Elves in the Monster Manual. The Elves in the Monster Manual have a "Usually Chaotic Good" alignment. But my argument comes unhinged when we look at Drow in the FRCS. The Drow entry in the FRCS also says "As Player's Handbook, except...". ;) -They changed Drow from Chaotic Evil to Neutral Evil? They did. A change that was a long time coming, but much needed IMHO. See it in the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm). |
| GothicDan08-20-07, 07:17 PM | Derren, you haven't responded to any of the arguments I've made in the context they were given. You cited completely different things, many of which are nonapplicable to the Realms. There's no point in discussing anything with you if you refuse to use actual evidence as given in FR products, as opposed to core. |
| MarkusTay6308-20-07, 07:40 PM | Actually, I think I'm 99.99% certain that FR is the new 'core', going by statements made and questions answered. There will be NO setting-specific rules concerning FR - if it's in FR you will find it in the PH or DMG (they've said that). So things like 'Mythals' will either appear in the core books, or be gone for good. I guess I was right - FR will be the new core setting. ;) Sometimes I hate being right. :( Anyhow, their will only be a single elven race, just as Zandilar says. Even Drow and 'Sea' will be rolled into that single race, with either Feats (Moon, Sun, Grugach, etc) or templates (Drow, Sea, Avariel) applied. That means no more attribute differences. I'm actually all for this - if something is THAT different, then they are no longer the same race. The whole 'sub-race' cr@p really needed an overhaul. Humans don't have 'sub-races' - you don't see blacks, whites, and Orientals with different attributes in the books. An inuit (Eskimo) has an extra layer of fat, making them different from other humans, but no-one calls them a 'sub-race'. I'm starting to like this new edition, if only for the simplifications it seems to offer. Also, it's supposed to be lore-heavy, the rules will only be in the core books - so our FR books will only contain fluff (and perhaps a couple of 37-page stat blocks). ;) |
| GothicDan08-20-07, 09:06 PM | I'm pretty much neutral on the standardization of subraces. However, I wish they'd bring back Min and Max ability scores for all races and subraces. |
| Poison_Dusk08-20-07, 11:53 PM | Those little bastards that make toys! I hate those guys! |
| Lord Karsus08-21-07, 08:50 AM | Those little bastards that make toys! I hate those guys! -I guess you don't like toys, then? :confused: There will be NO setting-specific rules concerning FR - if it's in FR you will find it in the PH or DMG (they've said that). So things like 'Mythals' will either appear in the core books, or be gone for good. -No, sir, I don't like it. I guess I was right - FR will be the new core setting. ;) -I don't like it one bit. Anyhow, their will only be a single elven race, just as Zandilar says. Even Drow and 'Sea' will be rolled into that single race, with either Feats (Moon, Sun, Grugach, etc) or templates (Drow, Sea, Avariel) applied. That means no more attribute differences. -Amazing...:nonono: Humans don't have 'sub-races' - you don't see blacks, whites, and Orientals with different attributes in the books. An inuit (Eskimo) has an extra layer of fat, making them different from other humans, but no-one calls them a 'sub-race'. -You could easily do all of that, but then that sparks atual controversey. Sun Elves are more intelligent than Moon Elves? Fine. No one really cares. Writing that Humans of one color/race are more intelligent than Humans of another color/race? That causes problems. For the Moon Elf entry in the FRCS, it says "As Player's Handboook, except". The exception listed are languages, not alignment. The Player's Handbook Elves are the same Elves in the Monster Manual. The Elves in the Monster Manual have a "Usually Chaotic Good" alignment. But my argument comes unhinged when we look at Drow in the FRCS. The Drow entry in the FRCS also says "As Player's Handbook, except...". ;) -Asides for it saying, "As Player's Handbook, except...", see what I said in response to Derren. That is really the crux of my argument, if it can even be called an argument. |
| Karsus the Mad08-21-07, 09:36 AM | For the Moon Elf entry in the FRCS, it says "As Player's Handboook, except". The exception listed are languages, not alignment. The Player's Handbook Elves are the same Elves in the Monster Manual. The Elves in the Monster Manual have a "Usually Chaotic Good" alignment. But my argument comes unhinged when we look at Drow in the FRCS. The Drow entry in the FRCS also says "As Player's Handbook, except...". Well, at least page 104 of the PHB, under table 1-6: Creature, Race, and Class Alignment, drow are listed under Neutral Evil, while Elves are listed under Chaotic Good. |
| DarkSongKnight08-21-07, 02:11 PM | Those little bastards that make toys! I hate those guys! I think he was referring to Santa's elves. ;) |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 06:29 PM | -Amazing...:nonono:Actually, I've heard a new rumor that the Drow 'may' become their own seperate race. Thats TOO funny, because I hinted at that months ago in my Elven Netbook articles. :D However, that is just a rumor, and no-one official has commented on it, so take it with a grain of salt. |
| Lord Karsus08-21-07, 09:10 PM | -I think I might just have to ignore basically everything that happens in the post-4e era. |
| MarkusTay6308-21-07, 10:49 PM | You're a pessimist, I take it? :P Me? My glass is half-full. ;) |
| Karsus the Mad08-21-07, 10:51 PM | Nah. He's a realist... |
| Lord Karsus08-21-07, 11:26 PM | -Heed my warnings...:whatsthis |