Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bitter thorn 12-21-06, 04:44 AM	I'm playing a Ranger 10/ Barbarian 2/ Fighter 2/King of the Mountain 1 from Dagger Dale whose personal goal is te total eradication of Zhents from Dagger Dale. I've been playing him for some time (with a long break). He's got a lot of HP and his maxed spot and listen as well as evasion and uncanny dodge have served his well in terms of survivability. However, at we reach increasingly high levels we are more likely to have to fight truely dangerous arcane and divine casters. I'm looking for input on improving his survivability against said highish level casters. He has very little in the way of unspent GP as his short swords, bow, arrows, armor and consumables have consumed the bulk of said wealth, so an item of SR is probably right on out of there. TIA
Lord Karsus 12-21-06, 05:29 PM	-Anything that nullifies magic will do. -Invest in a Beholder. ;)
bitter thorn 12-22-06, 10:41 AM	-Anything that nullifies magic will do. -Invest in a Beholder. ;) :rofl: :doh:
Lord Karsus 12-22-06, 11:45 AM	-Hey, no matter how silly it sounds, it does work.
ShadezofDis 12-22-06, 11:50 AM	Find yourself a wizard or priest, your there to take out the sword swingers :) That said, try and take them on the trail from ambush, or hit them when they're having answering nature when encamped. Try and hit them when they are camped and looking at their spellbook.
primemover003 12-22-06, 08:32 PM	How about detailing the rest of your adventuring group? Usually your fellow party members can help a Warrior type against Evil spellcasters. Remember Adventuring is a TEAM sport.
Rell 12-26-06, 09:28 AM	My other concern would be to find the Zhent. I mean, despite the number of megalomaniac wizards they have, aren't they supposed to be a secret society ?
bitter thorn 12-26-06, 10:18 AM	Find yourself a wizard or priest, your there to take out the sword swingers :) That said, try and take them on the trail from ambush, or hit them when they're having answering nature when encamped. Try and hit them when they are camped and looking at their spellbook. He does excell at stealthy forced march situations and is an effective ambush fighter, but it gets increasingly difficult to sneak up on mid to high level wizard types. His cohort is a Dwarven Rager/Rogue so they synergize well in this role. I could probably benifit from potions (or some such) of non-detection.
bitter thorn 12-26-06, 10:37 AM	How about detailing the rest of your adventuring group? Usually your fellow party members can help a Warrior type against Evil spellcasters. Remember Adventuring is a TEAM sport. Excellent point. This is something of a challange, however. We are mixing and matching two similar level parties in the same broad region (Cormyr and Dagger Dale) so party composition is a bit up in the air. To further complicate matters some of the players are a bit hit and miss due to adult commitments IRL. Historically we had a moon elven mage, but we've lost that player peranently, alas. We have an excellent halfling druid who is a great all around caster, but she can only do so much in a given round. We might have a brutal War Wizard sorc, but she's more of a blaster than a swiss army knife. It's her first arcanist, and she makes things go boom with authority!;) We may also have a psycho rouge/sorc halfling, but again she more of a dual wand blaster. This is also this players first caster. By some quirck of player availability we are kind of heavy on the rogue ranger fighter/archer side of things for possabilities with one extra druid option. This may also be influenced by the fact that 3 of the players are pretty new and shied away from the complexity of casters. It's a fun group, but we do feel the absence of the versitile arcanist. Hopefully that was a little helpful.:gah:
bitter thorn 12-26-06, 10:45 AM	My other concern would be to find the Zhent. I mean, despite the number of megalomaniac wizards they have, aren't they supposed to be a secret society ? I have a little exalted help there. ;) In addition to his formidable skill set his goddess Chauntea has blessed him with the feat Nemisis from BoED. I can detect them as a supernatural ability. I've invested a few feats into my PCs somewhat obsessive character hook. He's not as flexable or optimized as some characters, but he's fun, and he can put the hurt on his various favored enemies especially Zhents. :cool:
ShadezofDis 12-26-06, 02:43 PM	He does excell at stealthy forced march situations and is an effective ambush fighter, but it gets increasingly difficult to sneak up on mid to high level wizard types. His cohort is a Dwarven Rager/Rogue so they synergize well in this role. I could probably benifit from potions (or some such) of non-detection. Indeed, any item that allows for "non-detection" would be a must. That and a whole lot of patience/"willing to be frustrated when they teleport somewhere else before you can spring your trap" is a must. :) But the basic point is to take them out when they are at the most vulnerable, any sort of "dispel magic" item would be excellent as well.
primemover003 12-26-06, 05:50 PM	Yeah it looks like your group is a set of skirmishers. You should probably stick to hit and run tactics on the numerically superior Zhent regulars. You certainly seem to have ranged superiority!!! Against high powered Arcane or Divine casters you need to boost saves, protect against energy drain/ability damage, and find ways to negotiate battlefield control spells (black tentacles, blade barrier, wall spells, ice storms, etc). You should also get some form of See Invisibility items (Onyx dog or Hand of glory) for the fighter types.
bitter thorn 12-26-06, 10:23 PM	Indeed, any item that allows for "non-detection" would be a must. That and a whole lot of patience/"willing to be frustrated when they teleport somewhere else before you can spring your trap" is a must. :) But the basic point is to take them out when they are at the most vulnerable, any sort of "dispel magic" item would be excellent as well. Enemy spell casters being able to teleport away is always a challenge. Almost all the party spell casters know the value of having at least one dispel magic on hand, but at this level it often takes a greater dispel to get the job done. The duration on nondetection and not being able to do the whole party is sometimes an issue when the enemy has good divination/skrying capability. I'd love to hear some counters for this issue.
bitter thorn 12-26-06, 10:48 PM	Yeah it looks like your group is a set of skirmishers. You should probably stick to hit and run tactics on the numerically superior Zhent regulars. You certainly seem to have ranged superiority!!! Against high powered Arcane or Divine casters you need to boost saves, protect against energy drain/ability damage, and find ways to negotiate battlefield control spells (black tentacles, blade barrier, wall spells, ice storms, etc). You should also get some form of See Invisibility items (Onyx dog or Hand of glory) for the fighter types. Depending on the grouping of PCs this party rocks as a commando force. We used to have a party composition like so: Ranger w/ Ranger/Rogue cohort Deepwood Sniper Druid Rogue/PDK w/ Cleric cohort Elven Mage Monk The entire party was mobile, fairly stealthy, and lightly armored. It was a great wilderness party. We weren't optimized for dungeon crawl slugfests, but it was a cool team with great skills. Currently, if we have the War Wizard we've got permanant Arcane sight and see invis covered. If not, we rely on the maxed out spot and listen of several of the party members. Battle field control spells can be a challange, but we usually have strong enough ranged capability to make the enemy pay a price for that tactic. There is a definate tendancy to multiclass in our group so saves tend to be on the strong side,but enchantment type spells can be an issue. We've had to have the Paladin or Cleric drop what they arer doing more than once to counter a dominate spell or some such with Protection from evil to keep one of our own fighter types from eating our own party's metaphorical lunch. Arcane power (that multiclassing taking its toll) and versatility really seems to be our soft underbelly tactically. We try to use scrolls and other consumables to compensate for it, but that tends to get pricey. To further complicate the issue we need to invest a lot in consumables for the upcoming assault on Tethyamar. This promises to be a long brutal slog that will consume a gods aweful lot of scrolls, wands, potions, and so forth. We will have prep time and local support, but this is bound to draw the attention of the Zhents at very high levels. Our games are never dull!;)
primemover003 12-27-06, 04:04 PM	All I can say is you need to hunt the head. If you are stealthy sneak into town and take out the casters ASAP. Granted you have to slug your way out through the grunts, but the treasure you gain killing their masters may just tip the scales for you! Of course any sane DM will try to thwart such a bold move... but a fair one will give you a shot at success! Arcane versitility is paramount! Currently I'm playing in a campaign set in the Silver Marches at 10th level. Our party includes a Dragonborn Warmage, a shield dwarf Cleric of Clangeddin Silverbeard, a 1/2 orc Barbarian, a shield dwarf Fighter, and a jotunbrud illuskan Psychic Warrior (me). Needless to say we're built for battlefields, especially Horde breaking! However the lack of a real wizard hurts a lot. With the cleric busy keeping the fighter and BBn healed he's got little time for utility spells or debuffs. The warmage blows things up with aplomb and I control the battlefield with Expansion, Combat reflexes and my 20' reach (I'm a tripper) but we're pretty straightforward in our tactics, no stealth to speak of, no quick escape either... We're a Greataxe. Your group seems like a Rapier.
bitter thorn 12-31-06, 02:11 AM	Bad news and good news. The bad news is that we are losing two of our players to a Ft Bragg transfer in a couple of months. That will cost us a Dragon Slayer heavy hitter, a Druid, and an archer. The good news is that we should be picking up an experienced player who will be playing a heavy hitter Dwarf and a wizard. I don't think he'll be averse to playing a generalist/swiss army knife wizard type with a little coaxing.
dragonheart 01-01-07, 06:27 PM	THink outside the box a bit for a while. depending on just when yourcampaign is occuring one very real possibility to help yourselves out would be a series of hit and run midnite assualts on Zhentish centers in Teshendale with a few careful ploys to Hillsfar (as long as your time is pre1374 anyway) take out commanders and as many troops as you can in the garrisons in Teshwave, Voonlar and Yulash and drop dead commanders into Hillsfar adn see if you can't get the Hillsfar forces to make a bigger push into Teshendale and occupy the Zhentish forces there making it easier to erradicate tehm in Dagger dale and then make it easier to deal with Tethyamar.
bitter thorn 01-02-07, 10:34 PM	We are in mid to late '73, but with a great many divination spells at thier disposal I'm not sure such a ploy would be very usefull. I apriciate the idea though.
dragonheart 01-07-07, 08:48 PM	its what I did but I do havwe to admit my characters had the advantage of being complete unknowns having come from a alternate prime material and taken a year to locate each other, get together, learn about the world and plan for the attack far away before moving in for the "kill". Still with a little counter divination magic to block scrying while you plan and staying outside the area (or moving to new ands unexpected digs and staying low) you should be able to avoid being fouind until after its too late to do the Zhents any good. At least half their scrying has to be done internally to keep track of the "real" threats, then they have to keep track of the Hillsfar forces, shadowdale, cormyr, Anaroch, Shade and other moonsea concerns as well as Zhentish activities outside the moonsea area and suddenly your talking about having very limited scrying ability for a single party. they clearly do not have enough scrying ability to actually locate most of the members and "lairs" of the group of "freedom fighters" that opposes them so far so why should they have the excess scrying ability to keep track of you all the time - especially if you seem to fall off the face of the earth or move elsewhere out of their way? Granted its possible that yoru DM will seem ot be focusing all their scrying on you but you might remind him/her when they do it of all these other more important uses and maybe they will back off of knowing all your plans all the time.
bitter thorn 01-07-07, 09:26 PM	Good counters! BTW I still have my 15th level feat open. I'm pondering two weapon rend or mercurial strike, but if there is anything that helps defend against favored enemies or magic I'd be quite interested.;)
dragonheart 01-10-07, 08:58 PM	I forget which book (I think complete mage but not sure) but there is an alternate ability you might consider - replace evasion with reflect spell. If you still want evasion you would have to take analternate class that also grants evasion and then take reflect spell in its place. OR - talk to your DM about possible alternatives he will allow that are noncanon. THere are also a number of items (like the ring of spell turning) taht are effective agasint many spells and taht you should look into and talk to your DM about including in upcoming treasures.
BrianCritchley 01-11-07, 11:28 PM	the 3 most important individuals to kill, and not nesscarily in this order, are the preists of bane, the wizards and any spymaster types operating in the region. the leadership is whats important to remove
bitter thorn 01-12-07, 12:09 AM	the 3 most important individuals to kill, and not nesscarily in this order, are the preists of bane, the wizards and any spymaster types operating in the region. the leadership is whats important to remove Agreed. In our campaign the Zhents are broken as an organized military presense in Daggerdale. I'm certain that they will oppose the recapture of Tethyamar by the Dwarves (with the support of Daggerdale and Cormyr). I'm confident about my PC's ability to deal with assasins, but I'm concerned about the threat of high level mages and clerics. My maxed spot and listen and general parinoia make my PC a hard target for coventional assasins. The Zents have tried that tactic and failed on several occasions. He matches up against evil outsiders and undead pretty well, and we usually have good divine caster support. My main tactical concern is high level casters and our parties (and Daggerdales in general) vulnerability to highish level casters. Our party is highly skilled and reasonably well balanced, but I think a highish level mage, say 15th to 18th level, is most likely our most dangerous match up. I'm trying to do my part to cover that shortcoming. I'm just not having a lot of luck thinking of counter tactics. At lower levels our archers have proven very effective at taking enemy arcanist out of the fight, and we used to have a highly versitile wizard played by an experienced player. We are losing our archer, and our War Wizard is a blaster build. This is her first arcanist character also. The best counter currently in the group that is likely to assault Tethyamar is a ~15th level Druid run by an experienced player. I just don't want her to have to do all the heavy lifting, so to speak. Personally, I have almost no experience playing arcanists, and the game mechanics tend to favor high level casters IMO, so I'm diligently trying to pick the brains of folks with better content expertise than me. I apreciate all of the input! Much thanks!:tiphat:
dragonheart 01-15-07, 11:42 AM	the 3 most important individuals to kill, and not nesscarily in this order, are the preists of bane, the wizards and any spymaster types operating in the region. the leadership is whats important to remove If I had it to do I would take out the spymaster first - yes the preists and wizards have scrying spells etc but the spymaster is probably more dangerous since his resources are much less limited. After he/she is gone (and their network broken up some) then you can go after the otehrs - there I think the preists are probably more dangerous as they are more likely towork as agroup and so you want them out of the way before you start picking off individual mages.
Stigger 01-15-07, 04:17 PM	Recruit a retired War Wizard of Cormyr with good counterspelling abilities... see if you can hit up the Harpers for a Harper Mage you can borrow the services of... best thing to shut down a caster is another caster I find. Barring that, take a look at the Occult Slayer PrC from Complete Warrior and consider taking a level or two in it at some point soon. Could try to let them ambush you at your camp to, after picking out the places they would most likely set up from and booby-trapping the hell out of them. Oil soaked field + flame arrow could make quite a difference, particularly since it doesn't seem likely that they'd protect overly much from flame if you're light on arcane firepower. Or figure out where their troop movements are taking them, get ahead of them, and pulling that sort of trick on a likely campsite they might make use of. Maybe figure out where they're going to set up their casters and put big bags of flour to drop on them as they start casting off fire spells, could make for some nice big booms right on top of their heads... dunno really, got a lot of options you could make use of.
bitter thorn 01-20-07, 01:18 PM	This is the PCs current list of feats. I'm still trying to pick one for 15th level. I'm considering Merurial strike and two weapon rend, but I'm open to suggestions.;) Two Weapon Fighting*- When in light or no armor, character fights with two weapons as if he had this feat. (R2) Blooded- +2 to Initiative and +2 to Spot. (1) Combat Reflexes- Can make DEX+1 attacks of opportunity/round. (F2) Dodge- Choose an opponent per round, get +1 to AC vs. him. (1) Endurance*- +4 to Fortitude saves or checks to resist non-lethal damage, CON checks to keep running, CON checks to hold your breath, Fort saves to resist suffocation damage, and may sleep in light or medium armor w/o becoming fatigued. (R3) Extra Favored Enemy- Evil Outsiders (Wish) Heroic Surge- May take an extra Move or Attack action 4/day. (6) Improved Critical: Shortsword- Doubles threat range. (9) Improved Two Weapon Fighting- When in light or no armor and fighting with two weapons, you can make an additional off-hand attack at a -5 penalty. (R6) Improved Favored Enemy-+3 damage against Favored Enemy Leadership: 15th level base (12) Nemesis- Can detect favored enemy (Zhent) when within 60', even through barriers; +1d6 damage. (Flaw) Quick Burning Rage- Rage lasts only for CON mod. (Flaw) Quick Draw- Can draw a weapon as a free action. (F1) Track*- With a Wilderness Lore roll, character can spot tracks and follow them. See p. 85 of PHB. (R1) Weapon Focus: Shortsword- +1 to attacks.(3)
oracle71 01-20-07, 01:45 PM	You could get a few spellcasters who can cast summonings, find the Zhents, then wait for nightfall. Every couple of hours, send a force of very loud summoned creatures into their camp. They don't have to be particularly powerful creatures, just loud. Even if they can't do much damage to the Zhent forces, they can prevent the Zhent casters from resting and recharging their spells. Harass them during the day with ambushes and traps (think the Colonial militia v. the British redcoats after Lexington and Concord). Hit them with more powerful summoned cretures, such as the larger elementals. The Zhent wizards will then be left with a choice, teleport away to recharge their spells, which would leave the warriors relatively unprotected from anti-Zhent magic, or stay around with few spells while fatigued/exhausted. Finally, when they're weak enough, and tired enough, Sneak your main force behind the Zhents, while sending the most powerful summoned creature you can get to attack their front as a diversion. The casters will surely stay behind the warriors, which is exactly where you can hit them the hardest.
bitter thorn 01-20-07, 03:18 PM	You could get a few spellcasters who can cast summonings, find the Zhents, then wait for nightfall. Every couple of hours, send a force of very loud summoned creatures into their camp. They don't have to be particularly powerful creatures, just loud. Even if they can't do much damage to the Zhent forces, they can prevent the Zhent casters from resting and recharging their spells. Harass them during the day with ambushes and traps (think the Colonial militia v. the British redcoats after Lexington and Concord). Hit them with more powerful summoned cretures, such as the larger elementals. The Zhent wizards will then be left with a choice, teleport away to recharge their spells, which would leave the warriors relatively unprotected from anti-Zhent magic, or stay around with few spells while fatigued/exhausted. Finally, when they're weak enough, and tired enough, Sneak your main force behind the Zhents, while sending the most powerful summoned creature you can get to attack their front as a diversion. The casters will surely stay behind the warriors, which is exactly where you can hit them the hardest. I like the way you think!:evillaugh :schemes:
Stigger 01-20-07, 04:53 PM	Wow... good plan there. Gonna steal that one for something else... :D
dragonheart 01-21-07, 03:57 PM	Ity is a good plan but there ar a couple of things to keep in mind: 1, if your summoners are going to be casting everyday and moving then they are likely to get tired and worn out too. 2. the Zhentarim are going to figure out that someone is nearby pretty quickly and start looking for them before they are too worn down. 3. you actually want strong enough summoned creatures so that they do some real damage each time - just noise is not goign to be enough. 4. Scalping and mutiliating the Zhentarim warriors on guard will do as much or more to everyone - morale checks are wonderful ways of beating folks over time. 5: try summon poisonous snake - right inside each mage's bedroll in the middle of the night - odds are at least a few will get bit and injured/killed and this would be right up the druid's (and ranger's) alley for actions. 6. If you don't have it yet get improved initiative for that 15th level slot - being able to fire first with a bow and often hitting the mages should go a long way to stopping thier spell slinging. 7. Have that druid get natural casting so he can caste spells while wildshaped - then sit inthe trees as an owl and cast summoning spells as above while no one is looking up.
bitter thorn 01-21-07, 10:09 PM	Improved init is definately worth considering, but my Ranger is primarily a two weapon fighter. He has a +15 BAB and a good bow with the Hunter enhancement on it so he would get at least +12 damage per arrow for his FE bonus. However he doesn't have any archery feats. On the bright side, 3.5 has done away with the 30' range limit for the FE bonus to ranged weapon damage, so the classic snipe at fairly long range and fade tactic is always a good option for the Ranger.
bitter thorn 01-21-07, 10:10 PM	Improved init is definately worth considering, but my Ranger is primarily a two weapon fighter. He has a +15 BAB and a good bow with the Hunter enhancement on it so he would get at least +12 damage per arrow for his FE bonus. However he doesn't have any archery feats. On the bright side, 3.5 has done away with the 30' range limit for the FE bonus to ranged weapon damage, so the classic snipe at fairly long range and fade tactic is always a good option for the Ranger. Ity is a good plan but there ar a couple of things to keep in mind: 1, if your summoners are going to be casting everyday and moving then they are likely to get tired and worn out too. 2. the Zhentarim are going to figure out that someone is nearby pretty quickly and start looking for them before they are too worn down. 3. you actually want strong enough summoned creatures so that they do some real damage each time - just noise is not goign to be enough. 4. Scalping and mutiliating the Zhentarim warriors on guard will do as much or more to everyone - morale checks are wonderful ways of beating folks over time. 5: try summon poisonous snake - right inside each mage's bedroll in the middle of the night - odds are at least a few will get bit and injured/killed and this would be right up the druid's (and ranger's) alley for actions. 6. If you don't have it yet get improved initiative for that 15th level slot - being able to fire first with a bow and often hitting the mages should go a long way to stopping thier spell slinging. 7. Have that druid get natural casting so he can caste spells while wildshaped - then sit inthe trees as an owl and cast summoning spells as above while no one is looking up.
oracle71 01-22-07, 11:14 AM	Ity is a good plan but there ar a couple of things to keep in mind: 1, if your summoners are going to be casting everyday and moving then they are likely to get tired and worn out too. 2. the Zhentarim are going to figure out that someone is nearby pretty quickly and start looking for them before they are too worn down. 3. you actually want strong enough summoned creatures so that they do some real damage each time - just noise is not goign to be enough. 4. Scalping and mutiliating the Zhentarim warriors on guard will do as much or more to everyone - morale checks are wonderful ways of beating folks over time. 5: try summon poisonous snake - right inside each mage's bedroll in the middle of the night - odds are at least a few will get bit and injured/killed and this would be right up the druid's (and ranger's) alley for actions. 6. If you don't have it yet get improved initiative for that 15th level slot - being able to fire first with a bow and often hitting the mages should go a long way to stopping thier spell slinging. 7. Have that druid get natural casting so he can caste spells while wildshaped - then sit inthe trees as an owl and cast summoning spells as above while no one is looking up. I agree that it's not perfect, but my strategy is based on the idea that if a spellcaster can't rest, they can't effectively recharge their spells. You don't neccessarily need to hurt them, just prevent them from resting. You can cast a summoning spell from behind cover and then move away from the battle. If you have some casters (whether they are sorcerers, wizards, clerics, or druids) working together in shifts, you only need one or two active at any one time. If you summoned something like an elemental with DR, you can leech away some of the zhents spells (unless all of the zhent warriors have magical weapons). Wildshaped druids with with natural casting would be wonderful in this situation, especially at night. The daytime attacks are designed to hurt the zhent troops, and force the zhent wizards to use their spells. The zhents will surely get wise eventually, and use a larger number of scouts. But they have a large area to scout. The heroes can still ambush some of these scouts, thus weakening the zhent forces. Granted, the zhents may eventually respond with a large army, which my tactics won't work against effectively, but taking out a smaller force may buy the citizens enough time to organize a proper defense. And a few traps.
bitter thorn 01-22-07, 11:32 AM	I think it's a sound strategy, and the druid would excel at it too. I agree that it's not perfect, but my strategy is based on the idea that if a spellcaster can't rest, they can't effectively recharge their spells. You don't neccessarily need to hurt them, just prevent them from resting. You can cast a summoning spell from behind cover and then move away from the battle. If you have some casters (whether they are sorcerers, wizards, clerics, or druids) working together in shifts, you only need one or two active at any one time. If you summoned something like an elemental with DR, you can leech away some of the zhents spells (unless all of the zhent warriors have magical weapons). Wildshaped druids with with natural casting would be wonderful in this situation, especially at night. The daytime attacks are designed to hurt the zhent troops, and force the zhent wizards to use their spells. The zhents will surely get wise eventually, and use a larger number of scouts. But they have a large area to scout. The heroes can still ambush some of these scouts, thus weakening the zhent forces. Granted, the zhents may eventually respond with a large army, which my tactics won't work against effectively, but taking out a smaller force may buy the citizens enough time to organize a proper defense. And a few traps.
dragonheart 01-26-07, 06:54 PM	no plan is perfect and once in action no plan goes wihtout modification along the way. The plan was good I was only pointing out problems a good planner should spot and start looking for ways they can tighten up and/or start creating fallbacks for whenthe enevitable does occur - remember the 7 Ps (Proper Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance)
bitter thorn 01-27-07, 10:18 AM	no plan is perfect and once in action no plan goes wihtout modification along the way. The plan was good I was only pointing out problems a good planner should spot and start looking for ways they can tighten up and/or start creating fallbacks for whenthe enevitable does occur - remember the 7 Ps (Proper Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance) LOL! You sound like a fellow US Army vet!;)
dragonheart 01-27-07, 10:33 PM	nope just a guy who barely missed viet nam and has an interst in military technology, strategy and tactics. He has a +15 BAB and a good bow with the Hunter enhancement on it so he would get at least +12 damage per arrow for his FE bonus. However he doesn't have any archery feats. Now why is it that everyone seems to think you have to have a bunch of feats in something before you can do anything with it? if your getting +12 damage on each arrow hit your doing fine - that is a +13-18 to the mage's concentration check to caste a spell each round you hit. even if you only hit every other round that is going to bust up somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of his spells making a lot weaker as an apponent. I don't know what equipment you have but getting a ring of spell storing with dimension door is another way to bypass much of his defenses and get close enough to take him into melee combat where he sucks and your 2 weapon fighting will be really useful. This is why I think improved initiative and spells like Kauper's skittish nerves are so important - going first and being able to hold an action whetehr its firing an arrow just as he is casting or DDooring next to him and taking a swipe or three with your weapons and forcing into defensive mode can change the whole tenor of an incedent. I have a monk-ranger with the ascetic ranger feat and he is often more deadly barehanded thatn wiht a weapon - confuses foes when a guy starts popping up next to you doing a real flurry of blows (4 main attacks plus 3 offhand attacks for a total of 7 attacks doing 2D10 + strength damage - tends to take a mage right out of a fight.
bitter thorn 01-28-07, 12:03 AM	nope just a guy who barely missed viet nam and has an interst in military technology, strategy and tactics. Now why is it that everyone seems to think you have to have a bunch of feats in something before you can do anything with it? if your getting +12 damage on each arrow hit your doing fine - that is a +13-18 to the mage's concentration check to caste a spell each round you hit. even if you only hit every other round that is going to bust up somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of his spells making a lot weaker as an apponent. I don't know what equipment you have but getting a ring of spell storing with dimension door is another way to bypass much of his defenses and get close enough to take him into melee combat where he sucks and your 2 weapon fighting will be really useful. This is why I think improved initiative and spells like Kauper's skittish nerves are so important - going first and being able to hold an action whetehr its firing an arrow just as he is casting or DDooring next to him and taking a swipe or three with your weapons and forcing into defensive mode can change the whole tenor of an incedent. I have a monk-ranger with the ascetic ranger feat and he is often more deadly barehanded thatn wiht a weapon - confuses foes when a guy starts popping up next to you doing a real flurry of blows (4 main attacks plus 3 offhand attacks for a total of 7 attacks doing 2D10 + strength damage - tends to take a mage right out of a fight. He has always been a competent archer, but that was always his brothers area of expertise. The challenge of not having invested any feats into it is the lach of things like precise shot or improved precise shot for dealing with cover/concealment etc. It's not a crippling short coming by any means. He is a Daleman after all. ;) Note to self: Get seeking arrows.:plotting: Improved init is looking like the feat of choice. I ruled out two weapon rend because it has to overcome DR again and it doesn't seem to get Sneak attack or favored enemy bonuses (according to the DM, I'm not certain I agree.) and Mercurial Strike gets cool points but it's certainly not worth a feat mechanically as I have no rogue levels. I like the Dimension door idea. I've seen a Drow Judicator use it to devastating effect, but I can't afford the Ring of spell storing route. I could go with potions for 1,400GP a piece or an item of once a day use for 10,080GP. I don't think I can afford the latter though.:thinks:
bitter thorn 01-30-07, 11:49 AM	Are ther any feats that give a ranger SR or save bonuses for favored enemies?
Empirate 02-12-07, 12:43 PM	With Blooded and ImpIni, you should stand a very good chance of going first - I assume your Dex isn't bad either! Going first is always the most important thing against casters, as others have pointed out. The hit and fade approach seems to get points for feasibility, and against casters, it's surprisingly easy to trick them out of spell slots. I've seen this when DMing: The PCs were resting and researching at a small stronghold of clerics and paladins of Tyr (around 25 each) for a few weeks. They had been followed by a strong Zhent taskforce - one 30 man squad of Bugbear elite soldiers (3 fighter levels each); around 250 regulars(2nd level humans); a dozen clerics of Bane, most of them around level 3-6, with their leader being 11th level; three 7th and one 15th level wizards. They were also accompanied by an Old White Dragon and four Frost Giants. The stronghold was in a mountainside, and there was absolutely no easy access to it; the defenders were mostly higher level than the attackers, had set a lot of traps, collapsed the only tunnel entrances, had a few war engines to fire and lots of healing and even resurrecting power (obviously). The Zhents still managed to wear them down: They had brought lots and lots of summoning options. The summoned earth elementals and a Dao to open the mountainside; they sent in summoned Demons; they sent in the Frost Giants and later animated the bodies (as 10 HD Shadows, no less...); they sent in a lot of the regulars and animated the bodies. All this was part of the Zhents' preparatory stockpile of scrolls, they didn't use one of their own spell slots, but the PCs didn't know that. When the defenders sallied forth, the Zhent clerics lashed out with their most powerful spells, finally driving the good guys back with the help of the dragon. At last, the PCs thought all the Zhent casters must be out of spell slots. Some little spell power was remaining to the group, although even the Sorcerer was running low on unused slots. The 15th level wizard had infiltrated the castle polymorphed, but had been discovered and forced to use his highest-level spell slots just to get away. The PCs decided to take the field once again, in the hope that finally the Banite Clerics must be out of spells, they thought that they finally had the advantage. It was shortly after midnight. This had all been part of the Zhents' ploy, though. You see, Banite clerics pray for spells at midnight, while Tyrrans pray at dawn... and the PCs had to face a Zhent army freshly invigorated by "full" clerics! So, it is very important to know the exact nature of enemy spellcaster you are facing. Clerics work differently from arcanists!
bitter thorn 02-13-07, 01:14 AM	Excellent observations! I appreciate the input!
rolig 02-14-07, 02:23 PM	Go for the prestishe class moonsea skysentinel, from the champions of valor book. You'd be amazed:D
Mirashira 02-14-07, 02:39 PM	gotta write some of those tactics down for later - great work folks :) if you have some reputation in the dalelands - try to find a cleric with the protection/magic domain ...(f.e. Chauntea,Deneir, Eldath, Helm, Kelemvor, Lathander etc.) for 6th level domain spell slot is antimagic field -.- funniest thing my 14th level cleric ever did was charging into that 20th level sorceror and casting antimagic field....damn my dm was p****d :) other way would be to just stay back with your archers with your cleric casting antimagic field centered on him - magic arrows will gain their bonus back after leaving that field - and booya no summoned monsters in your field - no magic at all to worry about - ah did i mention that antimagic field lasts 10min/level ? ok its only 10ft radius but that should be enough ... so thats just an idea if you can get your hands on a decent cleric ^^
bitter thorn 02-15-07, 05:26 PM	gotta write some of those tactics down for later - great work folks :) if you have some reputation in the dalelands - try to find a cleric with the protection/magic domain ...(f.e. Chauntea,Deneir, Eldath, Helm, Kelemvor, Lathander etc.) for 6th level domain spell slot is antimagic field -.- funniest thing my 14th level cleric ever did was charging into that 20th level sorceror and casting antimagic field....damn my dm was p****d :) other way would be to just stay back with your archers with your cleric casting antimagic field centered on him - magic arrows will gain their bonus back after leaving that field - and booya no summoned monsters in your field - no magic at all to worry about - ah did i mention that antimagic field lasts 10min/level ? ok its only 10ft radius but that should be enough ... so thats just an idea if you can get your hands on a decent cleric ^^ Cool idea, but I didn't think AMF effected summoned creatures?
rolig 02-15-07, 05:33 PM	In case of a summoned or incorperal undead, the creature winks out as long as insidede the field. Read closer on the spell for further discription. its pgae 200 players:P AMF im talking about;) Anyhow, it's not mutch range on it, quite easy to run from. But heck you can't tutch the cleric:D quite good input there Mirashira:D What is great about the moonsea skysentinel, is you could easy make an epic progression for it to(id say increase all class abileties+feat evry 4 lvl).And even you have 10 non skysentinel lvl's with no increasement on your mount. It is still dangerous:)
Mirashira 02-17-07, 03:50 PM	This had all been part of the Zhents' ploy, though. You see, Banite clerics pray for spells at midnight, while Tyrrans pray at dawn... and the PCs had to face a Zhent army freshly invigorated by "full" clerics! So, it is very important to know the exact nature of enemy spellcaster you are facing. Clerics work differently from arcanists! Afaik - and i just had a discussion about that with my DM (and as far as the players handbook says) - you need 8 hours of "rest" after you casted your last spell - before you can gain new spells in that spellslot f.e. if you did cast a level 6 spell less than eight hours before your prayertime - you cannot regain this spell for the next day ?
bitter thorn 02-19-07, 04:32 AM	Afaik - and i just had a discussion about that with my DM (and as far as the players handbook says) - you need 8 hours of "rest" after you casted your last spell - before you can gain new spells in that spellslot f.e. if you did cast a level 6 spell less than eight hours before your prayertime - you cannot regain this spell for the next day ? Preparing Divine Spells Time of Day A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells. Recent Casting Limit As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#preparingDivineSpells
Mirashira 02-19-07, 02:03 PM	so that regaining spells during a battle should not be possible, should it ?
deldyrra 02-19-07, 03:57 PM	My suggestions: See if your DM will let shortswords count as Chanteau's favored weapon, take True Believer, and dip into Pious Templar for a level. It will give you Mettle, and level of good will saves, and first level paladin spells. Mettle can be pretty invaluable against casters at higher levels. My next suggestion would be to use the Non-Casting Ranger variant from Complete Warrior, and start with Mage Slayer line of feats... those are pretty brutal. Occult Slayer is a good class and wont make you sacrifice your ranger casting. I second the idea about trying to find allied groups to lend you casters. try to get them to do a chained non-detections for all you, it'll prove invaluable. To help with your sneaking, the Dark template is prettty awesome (from Tome of Magic) or a Collar of Umbral Metamorphis(does the same thing). Hide in Plain Sight, the bonus to sneaking and speed could concievably help you out alot. The Shadow Walker template would give you dimension door 3/day, along with slew of other spell like abilities. The Darkstalker feat would help you hide from alot of creatures you normally couldnt. In addition, there's an item in Magic of Faerun that makes you immune to Darkvision, which seems pretty sweet. Oh yeah, one more thing... if you choose to keep yr ranger casting, their spell list is pretty versatile these days... getting some good scrolls and wands of ranger spells could be really handy. I hope some of this helps. BTW, I heard you mention Fort Bragg. You live in Fayettville?
bitter thorn 02-20-07, 12:56 AM	so that regaining spells during a battle should not be possible, should it ? Nope; the rule seems designed to preclude exactly that.
Mirashira 02-20-07, 04:30 AM	rod of silence (clr/brd 2) will do some good, BUT don't use it on those spellcasters right away, better cast it on their surroundings ^^(will save negates) rod of Blindness/Deafness (brd/sor/wiz 2 clr 3) is also nice, fortitude saves *chuckles* ever seen a blind wizard throw spells around ^^ and the effect is permanent until dispelled you can also do the power word thingy - but that would be an expensive rod ^^ (power word stun (150 hp target, no saves, SR yes, CL8), blind(200 hp target, no saves, SR yes, CL7))
bitter thorn 02-20-07, 04:48 AM	rod of silence (clr/brd 2) will do some good, BUT don't use it on those spellcasters right away, better cast it on their surroundings ^^(will save negates) rod of Blindness/Deafness (brd/sor/wiz 2 clr 3) is also nice, fortitude saves *chuckles* ever seen a blind wizard throw spells around ^^ and the effect is permanent until dispelled you can also do the power word thingy - but that would be an expensive rod ^^ (power word stun (150 hp target, no saves, SR yes, CL8), blind(200 hp target, no saves, SR yes, CL7)) Silence; you have to love a 2nd level spell that gives spell casters fits.:devil:
bitter thorn 02-21-07, 11:14 AM	My suggestions: See if your DM will let shortswords count as Chanteau's favored weapon, take True Believer, and dip into Pious Templar for a level. It will give you Mettle, and level of good will saves, and first level paladin spells. Mettle can be pretty invaluable against casters at higher levels. It's a temping thought, but the favored weapon change won't fly. My next suggestion would be to use the Non-Casting Ranger variant from Complete Warrior, and start with Mage Slayer line of feats... those are pretty brutal. I'm not willing to part with my Ranger spells.;) Occult Slayer is a good class and wont make you sacrifice your ranger casting. I'll have to take a look at this but I'm not sure it's a good fit. I second the idea about trying to find allied groups to lend you casters. try to get them to do a chained non-detections for all you, it'll prove invaluable. I like this.:cool: To help with your sneaking, the Dark template is prettty awesome (from Tome of Magic) or a Collar of Umbral Metamorphis(does the same thing). Hide in Plain Sight, the bonus to sneaking and speed could concievably help you out alot. The Shadow Walker template would give you dimension door 3/day, along with slew of other spell like abilities. The Darkstalker feat would help you hide from alot of creatures you normally couldnt. In addition, there's an item in Magic of Faerun that makes you immune to Darkvision, which seems pretty sweet. I don't have ToM, but I'm definately going to have to look at this. Although with maxed hide and move silent skills and +5 from boots and cloack of Elvenkind I've got this covered pretty well. Oh yeah, one more thing... if you choose to keep yr ranger casting, their spell list is pretty versatile these days... getting some good scrolls and wands of ranger spells could be really handy. I've got a wand of Hunters mercy that comes in quite handy! I hope some of this helps. BTW, I heard you mention Fort Bragg. You live in Fayettville? No. I live in Colorado Springs. A friend of mine in 10th SF group is being transfered to Bragg. We just got him back from Iraq too.:weep: Thanks for the input and good ideas.:ayyyy!:
bitter thorn 02-22-07, 09:08 AM	Well, I'll most likely go with Improved Init. I plan on taking ranger 11 for 16th level then marshal in all likelyhood. I would consider Foe Hunter: Zhent, but the stackable SR is clearly broken, so I'm doubtful.:mad: Another level in King of the Mountain looks good too, though.
Mirashira 02-22-07, 07:00 PM	don't know if you have the spell compendium, so i will give you some ranger spells out of it you might find useful 1st level guided shot - ignores distance, cover, concealment penalties with a ranged attack for 1 round. Hunter's Mercy - next hit with a bow is automatically a critical hit. sniper's shot - no range limit on next ranged sneak attack 2nd level Haste, Swift - move faster, +1 on attacks, AC, Reflex saves (nice before charging with Lion's Charge : you can make a full attack on a charge for 1 round -.- 3rd level Phantasmal Decoy - creates illusory enemy for foe to chase - woo yeah while they attack your dupe, you can sneak up and - well yes your sword looks very nice in that zhent's ribs... 4th level Foebane - your weapon becomes +5 and deals +2d6 damage there are certainly more spells in the book, but those should be the most useful against casters - those clerics would still be a problem to you with those spells ^^ another - really funny spell is Buzzing Bee (that is Sor/Wiz 1) you create a bee that distracts a subject (takes -10 on Move Silently checks) and best of all - DC of Concentration checks to cast spells or maintain concentraition while distracted is equal to this spell's DC + the level ot the spell being cast. just get a high level mage that creates a rod of those filthy little buggers ^^
bitter thorn 02-27-07, 12:37 AM	I love the swift spells for rangers, and I'm a big fan of Hunters mercy too. My rangers dwarven cohort is a Ranger/rogue build, so sniper shot is a great spell for him. don't know if you have the spell compendium, so i will give you some ranger spells out of it you might find useful 1st level guided shot - ignores distance, cover, concealment penalties with a ranged attack for 1 round. Hunter's Mercy - next hit with a bow is automatically a critical hit. sniper's shot - no range limit on next ranged sneak attack 2nd level Haste, Swift - move faster, +1 on attacks, AC, Reflex saves (nice before charging with Lion's Charge : you can make a full attack on a charge for 1 round -.- 3rd level Phantasmal Decoy - creates illusory enemy for foe to chase - woo yeah while they attack your dupe, you can sneak up and - well yes your sword looks very nice in that zhent's ribs... 4th level Foebane - your weapon becomes +5 and deals +2d6 damage there are certainly more spells in the book, but those should be the most useful against casters - those clerics would still be a problem to you with those spells ^^ another - really funny spell is Buzzing Bee (that is Sor/Wiz 1) you create a bee that distracts a subject (takes -10 on Move Silently checks) and best of all - DC of Concentration checks to cast spells or maintain concentraition while distracted is equal to this spell's DC + the level ot the spell being cast. just get a high level mage that creates a rod of those filthy little buggers ^^
Empirate 03-01-07, 10:09 AM	People were absolutely right about the eight hour thing. I had nerfed this in my game so long ago that I completely forgot it existed. IMO, it makes everybody's life much easier without this. Otherwise, you'll NEVER see the group picking a fight after dark... Silence, 15' Radius was mentioned before. However, I have a particularly nasty suggestion: Cast it on a Tanglefoot Bag, throw at every caster to show his spellbook. Just gotta love that combo. Works with Darkness, too, but aiming is a little difficult then. Can AMF be cast on an object? Blindness/Deafness is a great option. I now have a Necromancer in the group who casts this all the time. Even at higher levels, it's still very very good if you push your save DC somewhat. Also, don't underestimate Major Images or even lower-level variants. Keep the enemy on their toes and make them waste spells on illusions. Under cover of night, it's not that easy to even get a saving throw to disbelieve the things!
Mirashira 03-02-07, 07:17 AM	Antimagic Field (Clr8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6) Components: V,S,M/DF Casting Time: 1 standart action Range : 10 ft Area : 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you Duration: 10 min./level (D) just one question : Can you counterdispel an Antimagic Field ? Text descriptions says that dispel magic does not remove the field, and two or more antimagic fields sharing the same space have no effect on each other...
bitter thorn 03-03-07, 11:56 AM	Antimagic Field (Clr8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6) Components: V,S,M/DF Casting Time: 1 standart action Range : 10 ft Area : 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you Duration: 10 min./level (D) just one question : Can you counterdispel an Antimagic Field ? Text descriptions says that dispel magic does not remove the field, and two or more antimagic fields sharing the same space have no effect on each other... I don't believe so. It requires a dispell check which would not be possable against AMF: Counterspell When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm
bitter thorn 03-04-07, 09:02 PM	Good stuff! I like the tanglefoot and silence combo!:evillaugh People were absolutely right about the eight hour thing. I had nerfed this in my game so long ago that I completely forgot it existed. IMO, it makes everybody's life much easier without this. Otherwise, you'll NEVER see the group picking a fight after dark... Silence, 15' Radius was mentioned before. However, I have a particularly nasty suggestion: Cast it on a Tanglefoot Bag, throw at every caster to show his spellbook. Just gotta love that combo. Works with Darkness, too, but aiming is a little difficult then. Can AMF be cast on an object? Blindness/Deafness is a great option. I now have a Necromancer in the group who casts this all the time. Even at higher levels, it's still very very good if you push your save DC somewhat. Also, don't underestimate Major Images or even lower-level variants. Keep the enemy on their toes and make them waste spells on illusions. Under cover of night, it's not that easy to even get a saving throw to disbelieve the things!