Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lunar190 06-24-07, 04:07 AM	Well, it's really hard for me, because i want to create paladin who's worshipper of Broken God Ilmater. And there's nature of my problem. Paladin as you know, is fighting class and Ilmater's favourite weapon is open hand [unarmed attack]. Did you ever saw paladin in plate armour fighting with his own fists? It looks nice, but in mechanic/D&D rules it just sux with 1d3 dmg (even if using smite evil) :/ help :rolleyes:
Borris 06-24-07, 04:43 AM	There's no problem with the idea of a paladin of Ilmater. His church even has not one but two paladin orders: The Order of the Golden Cup is decicated to healing and defending the young, weak, sick, or anyone who can't do it himself. They're not opposed to seeking and destroying evil, but they would rather stay home and protect those who need it. The Companions of the Noble Heart are more aggresive. They're the ones who seek and fight those who would make innocents suffer. They especially despise the church of Loviatar. As for the favored weapon, even a cleric has no compulsion to use a deity's favored weapon in battle, though it might guide his choice. As a martial servant of his deity, a paladin is trained with much better weapons than his unarmed strike. If it helps him accomplish his duty, he should be using the weapon his most effective with. He could honor Ilmater's favored weapon in different ways, such as by wileding a warhammer with the head shaped like a large steel fist.
MerrikCale 06-24-07, 08:03 AM	what borris said. Info on the two orders can be found in Champions of Valor, but Borris covered it admirably
Lunar190 06-24-07, 11:04 AM	Ok I understand and thanks for help but I want later take exalted feats and prestige class which requires Weapon Focus on deity's favourite weapon. The only contingency when cleric doesn't uses his deity's favourite weapon is Talontar Blightlord where cleric uses scythe, not his fists. So I ask for options. Maybe Cleric/Monk? Maybe feats to unarmed attack finghting? Maybe prestige class Sacred Fist? Is martyred champion of ilmater good choice for paladin? It gives on first level very fun buckup for characters dmg. But resurrected saint isn't my choice for martyred paladin who fights his own hands. First, character must be interesting adn climatic. Later i fit rules - and there is just my problem. Any options/ideas? I really want to keep unarmed strike, but I need some benefits to make these strikes more powerfull and deadly :) Ilmater himself has just 20 level of Monk and 20 level of Paladin, right...
Diffan 06-24-07, 02:19 PM	I'd stay with the paladin, and take maybe a Flaw (if your DM allows it) or use up your human feat to take Improved Unarmed Strike. You could also specialize in fighting with gauntlets, grappling, and the other things in that feat tree. I don't have the books with me, so I don't know exactly what the Martyred Champion class features are, but if it has a good BAB, extends your spellcasting ability, and helps with smiting, then it might be good. There's a paladin of Ilmater known at King Gareth, and he uses a Holy Avenger, and if I'm not mistaken, his class is Paladin 20/Cleric 5 of Illmater. Multiclassing between paladins and clerics isn't bad because of the good Will saves, spells, and early Turn undead ability. Just some thoughts. Hope some of them help. -Diffan
Lunar190 06-24-07, 02:55 PM	BAB of Martyred Champion is 3/4 of char level (like clerics). Improved Unarmed Strike is ok. Martyred Champion gains this feat for free and also gains +1k6, later +1k8 and +1k10 dmg like Monk class feature o_o I'm not sure that I can paste here any text or scanned image about Martyred Champion from Players Guide to Faerun. What is Holy Avenger? It's a sword? To plan Divine Champion i must have required Weapon Focus on favored deity weapon, so [unarmed strike].
Dielzen 06-24-07, 02:59 PM	Tome of Battle has the Superior Unarmed Strike feat which progresses almost as good as a Monk's IuS, but without requiring any class levels. ToB also has a couple of other nifty unarmed-based feats. While the book itself might get turned down by a restrictive DM (if you have one) the unarmed strike feats are in no way connected to martial fighting styles and all the other stuff in ToB, so might have a decent chance of being allowed.
Lunar190 06-24-07, 04:53 PM	Wow, they are good. Thanks Dielzen. So now I can make paladin of Ilmater in same way as creating other paladins. Other often take feats which warrior has as bonus feats. Ilmaters paladin can get so on, but unarmed fighting. I'm wondering how about my enemies, when they'll see man in plate armour who fights on naked fists! :D
Diffan 06-24-07, 08:25 PM	What is Holy Avenger? It's a sword? Yea, Holy Avenger is a +5 holy axiomatic longsword with various properities when wielded by a paladin. It's in the magic weapons section in the DMG. I'm wondering how about my enemies, when they'll see man in plate armour who fights on naked fists! Why not try wounding spiked gauntlets? each successful hit takes -1 Con point away. Very nice.
Mad Mage 06-24-07, 11:03 PM	Yea, Holy Avenger is a +5 holy axiomatic longsword with various properities when wielded by a paladin. It's in the magic weapons section in the DMG. Correction: At least according to the 3.5 Edition DMG, page 226 bottom right corner, a Holy Avenger functions as a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin. Why not try wounding spiked gauntlets? each successful hit takes -1 Con point away. Very nice. I highly doubt Ilmater would appreciate his servants inflicting such suffering even on his worshippers enemies. He'd rather his fighting servants give them the most merciful end possible, possibly even offering enemies to yield and seek redemption.
Diffan 06-25-07, 07:42 AM	Correction: At least according to the 3.5 Edition DMG, page 226 bottom right corner, a Holy Avenger functions as a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin. Ah, I stand corrected. I was thinking of the weapon Carsomyr, from the Baldur's Gate game. I highly doubt Ilmater would appreciate his servants inflicting such suffering even on his worshippers enemies. He'd rather his fighting servants give them the most merciful end possible, possibly even offering enemies to yield and seek redemption. I was speaking from a completly character optimization stand point. Illmater probably would't allow that or things that might, say, drain levels either. You could always tell your enemies to take a time out and then give them candy and fruit punch with a promise to be have themselves. :P
Lunar190 06-25-07, 11:56 AM	Even if Ilmater allows Torment Domain to his worshippers, still razored gauntlets are rather a weapon of Ilmaters worst enemy - Loviatar. Well, paladin of Ilmater can use even a sword. Concept with plate covered paladin fighting for naked fists is also possible :)
Diffan 06-25-07, 02:28 PM	Well, paladin of Ilmater can use even a sword. Concept with plate covered paladin fighting for naked fists is also possible :) I'd still look into investing something that will give your Unarmed Strikes the ability to bypass magical DR at the very least.
Mad Mage 06-25-07, 04:00 PM	How about a manufactured weapon with the Merciful property (DMG pg. 225) on it? That makes it so you can deal nonlethal damage with no penalty and does an extra 1d6 nonlethal, and is surpressable by command.
Diffan 06-26-07, 04:01 AM	How about a manufactured weapon with the Merciful property (DMG pg. 225) on it? That makes it so you can deal nonlethal damage with no penalty and does an extra 1d6 nonlethal, and is surpressable by command. Honestly though, is 1d6 really all that great. I understand that the player wants to make a extreamly realm-like character that follows Illmater's code to a "T", but at least consider some helpful builds that will allow your character to actually DO somthing in the party. If your going straight Paladin, then the unarmed technique really isn't for you. If you really, really want to go that route, then Multiclass cleric/monk with the Destruction Domain for the smite ability, or if Illmater doesn't have that domain (which I'm pretty sure he doesn't) then go to a PrC that allows your char to smite. What I really want to know is what you looking to get out of this character? What is the concept your striving for? Are you absolutly certain that you want the unarmed strike ability/feat tree? Also, who else is in your party? If you already have the healing and up-front fighting covered, then this build would suit you better. -Diffan
SmartPaladin 06-26-07, 06:12 AM	You could always see about taking the Ascetic Knight feat from Complete Adventurer. Let's you cross-class between paladin and monk, as well as let your paladin and monk classes stack to see how damage your unarmed strike and your smite evil do.
Dielzen 06-26-07, 07:02 AM	Honestly though, is 1d6 really all that great. No, 1d6 sucks, which is why I pointed him to the Superior Unarmed Strike feat in Tome of Battle which scales based on character level instead of Monk level.
Penknight 06-29-07, 06:32 PM	Ah, I stand corrected. I was thinking of the weapon Carsomyr, from the Baldur's Gate game.Isn't/Wasn't there a weapon named Crysomer from 2nd Edition that was a Holy Avenger (Encyclopedia of Magica)? Also, has it been updated for 3.5?
DojiHoturi 06-29-07, 09:17 PM	Or you could take a few levels (or even one) of Monk... The 'superior unarmed strike' feat is your best bet if you really want to avoid that route. And it does scaled damage based on character level, so it does get better. And, no, 1d6 damage is not that great, but lets face it, a long sword is only 1d8. There are also plenty of things that can give your strikes 'magic' properties. Also, the mace/hammer is probably the closest thing in regards to standard weapons that would fit the idea of 'unarmed'. 2 pennies, Doji
Lunar190 06-30-07, 11:53 AM	And additionaly I can take 1 level of cleric, because domain of Torment grants nice power to unarmed attack.
Diffan 07-01-07, 01:28 AM	Isn't/Wasn't there a weapon named Crysomer from 2nd Edition that was a Holy Avenger (Encyclopedia of Magica)? Also, has it been updated for 3.5? From what I remember, it was a sword you recieved in the Baldur's Gate PC games. It acted like a Holy Avenger, but was a greatsword and did some other things as well like cast Dispel Magic 1/day I think. I don't know if they ever put it into print or in the books of 2nd E. I found this online, so it might bring something to bear of this great sword. "Carsomyr" +5 Carsomyr is a weapon of legend, perhaps one of the most powerful blades ever forged on Faerun, though its origin and history is thought purposefully forgotten, such that the sword itself never overshadow the importance of the struggles that must be fought today. It is infused with the very essence of virtue, and requires as much from any paladin that would hope to wield it. The evils of the Realms must truly stand aside when this weapon is brought to bear, their magic dispelled with a word, steadfastly resisted with ease. Carsomyr also harbors a special distaste for the forces of evil and chaos, and such creatures must fear additional damage from its touch in battle. STATISTICS Equipped Abilities: 50% Magic Resistance, (or maybe SR equal to character level +5 to every ally within 10' radius)? Dispel magic 3/per day Combat Abilities: +5 axiomatic holy cold iron greatsword Dispels magic whenever the sword strikes an opponent Attack: +5 Damage: 2d6 +5 Damage type: slashing Weight: 7 Type: 2-handed Usable By: Paladins and for a history of the blade.... "This sword was made with one purpose: to destroy evil. Though a powerful weapon, Pale Justice has humble beginnings. The plain sword was crafted by a devout worshipper of Tyr named Renold. Renold spent thirty years of his life perfecting the metalworking techniques that allowed him to craft an almost flawless blade. As soon as Renold had completed the unadorned weapon, he turned it over to the church of Tyr. The priest who received it placed the naked blade on his monastery’s altar. He asked his brothers to join him in praying to Tyr to ask their god to bless the weapon with holy power. The brothers never touched the blade, nor did they speak of it. After ten years, despite the fact that all of the other brothers lost faith in the blade ever becoming enchanted, the original priest, Edan, continued his prayers in silence. Another twenty years passed, and there was still no sign from Tyr. Visiting priests of Helm scoffed at Edan’s blind devotion to the blade. It was then that, without warning, Edan walked up to the altar and gently removed the dust-covered blade from the altar. The priest of Helm asked Edan if he had finally come to his senses. Edan replied that he had, that he had been expecting the wrong thing from Tyr the entire time. He stated that Tyr had done his work long ago. The priest of Helm laughed out loud at Edan’s claim and asked his bodyguard to draw his sword. The magnificent weapon in the hand of the Helmite had a gilded guard set with pearls. Runes were etched along the blade, with a small cluster of fine rubies set in the ricasso. The priest of Helm laughed again and spoke. “This is truly a sword blessed by the gods. Your weapon looks like an ordinary soldier’s blade. It pales in comparison.” Edan calmly grabbed the blade by the tang and swatted at the guard’s weapon. The priest of Helm’s laughter cut off quickly as he stared down at his retainer’s broken weapon. He stood there speechless as Edan set the blade down and began to reply. “Justice always pales in comparison to vanity and ostentatious displays of power. I expected Tyr to manifest his divine will in this blade with lightning and fire. I should have remembered how the blade was given to me… with simple charity and humility. Justice is the right of every man, no matter how rich or poor, no matter how educated or ignorant. It should be found as often in the fields of farmers as it is in the fields of battle.” Edan took the blade to a local weapon smith and had him put a wooden, leather wrapped grip on it. He then gave it to a fledgling paladin and asked him to always remember the potential for charity and kindness in the human race."
Lunar190 07-01-07, 12:27 PM	hohohooho This is very.. very epic weapon :) As I remember, all paladins take warrior's feats for fighting (disarming, charge, powerfull attack, focus weapon etc.) so Ilamters Paladin in this place could take feats like supreme unarmed attack and others. Any more ideas what more bonuses grants unarmed attack? Any items? Feats? Spells?
Diffan 07-02-07, 08:57 AM	hohohooho This is very.. very epic weapon :) As I remember, all paladins take warrior's feats for fighting (disarming, charge, powerfull attack, focus weapon etc.) so Ilamters Paladin in this place could take feats like supreme unarmed attack and others. Any more ideas what more bonuses grants unarmed attack? Any items? Feats? Spells? Found this Feat in the Tome of Battle: Snapkick Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, BAB +6. Benefit: When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack is an an unarmed attack that deals damage equal to your base unarmed attack damage +1/2 your Str bonus. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls you make this round.
ClobberinTime 07-02-07, 05:30 PM	Honestly, I would let you choose another weapon as ilmater's favored weapons as a Paladin, you didn't really want to be a monk did you and you were forced into it by your choice of Ilmater as your deity. Why not worship Torm the True (two handed sword) or Tyr (longsword).
The_Shaman 07-03-07, 04:58 AM	A paladin can wield any weapon. S/he might decide to honor the deity further by becoming a master of their chosen weapon, but afaik are in no way forced by the class itself. Ilmater will not afaik withhold his blessing if you use a longsword, halberd, or even a spiked chain to do his bidding, as long as you only resort to using it for purposes he would approve of. Divine champions or Pious Templars are a different thing entirely. If you insist on going unarmed, points for style - my best bet would be SUS + a gauntlet (which afaik does the same damage as your unarmed strike), or taking a level or two in the Shou Disciple PrC. In fact, you can multiclass with monk (2 to 4 levels are a good choice imo) and take the Ascetic Knight feat to stack unarmed damage. By the way, do keep in mind that paladins are not required to be in heavy armors. They tend to, as they are proficient and suffer from a bad case of MAD, but there is no problem with a paladin going in light or no armor.
Zanan 07-03-07, 07:30 AM	Well, I once had an aasimar Paladin of Ilmater and she fairly soon multi-classed as a cleric. Oh these fine saves :D. Was one of the more militant types and for them, I can only suggest going the same direction. The lass ended up Pal 3 / Clr 13 / Hie 1 and once she had Divine Favor, Divine Power and somesuch on ... Of course, fate would have it that she got a sunblade late in the campaign and dual-wielding that with a +4 adamantine shortsword was ... well, heroic. As for a more defensive approach, shield bash / shield of bashing and Improved Unarmed Strike (for delivering touch spells too or just kick someone) are quite helpful.
Zevox 07-03-07, 03:24 PM	As others have said, nothing forces you to use your Deity's favored weapon. Some Priests see it as a point of honor to do so, but even they aren't forced to, and Paladins have less stringent requirements from their faith than they do. Heck, even Ilmater's most famous Paladin, Gareth Dragonsbane, uses a sword as his principle weapon. Its only logical for a holy warrior to use a weapon well-suited to combating his faith's foes, so if the Deity's favored weapon isn't, theres no reason for him to use it. Zevox
Lunar190 07-11-07, 12:02 PM	So abour Armor Class. 1 level in Monk class, grants me that wisdom gives me AC mod. So what is the best atribute build for paladin/monk of ilmater? If I will force into no armor - I will be focused to mass into Wisdom for AC. As others have said, nothing forces you to use your Deity's favored weapon. I hope to take a Divine Champion. It require Weapon Focus [favored deity's weapon] so it can be weapon focus on unarmed strike. And gauntlets are not unarmed strike are they?
The_Shaman 07-12-07, 03:30 AM	I think gauntlets basically just augment your unarmed strike, tbh. I might be wrong - afaik there are deities with gauntlets and unarmed strike as favored weapons - but I think for the sake of expediency, you can rule them to be the same. It would be like expecting a boxer to have a WF boxing glove ;) As for a paladin/monk... ugh, I hope you are not playing a low point-buy, because there isn't any attribute you will not need. Okay, maybe except intelligence, but a good intelligence is always nice anyway.
Zanan 07-12-07, 04:25 AM	There was a Dragon featuring various Un-/Holy Sowrds of the Realms, one was named "Captor". Essentially, it could never deal a killing blow, so that would be a fine Ilmaterian (the pacifist sort of) weapon.
Diffan 07-12-07, 07:54 AM	I hope to take a Divine Champion. It require Weapon Focus [favored deity's weapon] so it can be weapon focus on unarmed strike. Ug, in all honestly, that PrC wouldn't do you well for game mechanics. I suggest Sacred Fist (CDiv), Initiate of Pistis Sophia (BoED), or Martyred Champion of Ilmater (PGtF). Any of those PrC's make the monk better and have a holy aspect that fits well with Ilmater's style.
Swiftblade 07-12-07, 10:39 PM	I say good for you, trying to work a roleplay based character into rollplay based. Big time KUDOS. As for the unarmed strike and gauntlets, it never says you can't use them, but either way, the unarmed feat is a need for this character. As for what else you do, just think of it this way, it is your character, and paladins do not need to be sword wielding idiots, especially speaking since it is my favorite class. Wield the weapon you most desire, and if that is Ilmater's weapon of choice, good for you. Monk would not be a bad idea for the augment to damage and the ability to increase AC without armor. But if you want to wear armor and are worried about how your paladin in plate would look bare handed, easy, wear chain gloves, either steel, mithril or adamantine. Will really help protect your hands and will lend you the ability to make you not seem so weak. And if you go with the gloves, you can augment them with magic to help your unarmed attacks work like a magic weapon. There is your loophole for your unarmed attacks without using feats. As for whatever you decide though, let not the opinions of other influence you to think that you are in the wrong for making your character the way you want it if it doesn't match their ideals. Only a character you play is in the wrong if you did not willingly want to play it and were forced to.
Diffan 07-13-07, 07:33 AM	As for whatever you decide though, let not the opinions of other influence you to think that you are in the wrong for making your character the way you want it if it doesn't match their ideals. Only a character you play is in the wrong if you did not willingly want to play it and were forced to. This is true. This is your character and whatever feats, PrC, weapons you use it totally up to you. I only make suggestions that I think will help your character be the best it can be while still holding onto that role playing aspect. Espically the Martyred Champion of Ilmater PrC. That right there is taken right out of a FR suppliment. No choice is right or wrong, I'm just throwing out ideas that maybe you've not thought of yet.