Post/Author/DateTime	Post
waytoomuchcoffee 03-11-08, 10:28 PM	...even after that "spokesgnome for fey rights" bit on the flash movie, we have this from the new Dragon Feature today: "Still other fomorians seek advancement by overthrowing a power base in the Feywild -- perhaps an eladrin city or a gnome warren -- and claiming its magic and riches as their own."
Dark Wizard 03-11-08, 10:49 PM	Funny. The designers for Paizo's Pathfinder setting hinted that their gnomes were heavily fey related months ago. Is there some underlying collective consciousness compelling people to emphasize the link between fey and gnomes.
MarkusTay63 03-12-08, 12:40 AM	There actually is NO Gnome race in 4e... You basically just use a Midget with the Fey-touched template. :P And remember kiddies, if you're ever fey-touched... run and tell an adult. ;)
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 10:46 AM	Forest Gnomes were always fey-ish, imo. Svirfneblin were just amusing!
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 11:32 AM	-I don't know...I always saw Gnomes as eldrich, but never Fey.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 01:25 PM	The burning question is, Do they taste good? Hmm. Okay, I never saw gnomes as fey, either, but I can see the rationale behind it I suppose.
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 01:27 PM	i always thought they were more fey-like, hiding in forests and being wee and talking to badgers and all that.
MarkusTay63 03-12-08, 01:30 PM	I always though of Gnomes as a Halfling-Dwarf crossbreed, myself, and never really saw a niche for them IMG. I guess the designers felt the same way. They 'grew' the Hin, to make them more 'realistic' - too bad no one a WoTC read any scientific journals, or they'd know that the REAL HOBBITS (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6346939/) were only 3' tall! Anyhow, considering that they made the Halflings the same size as Dwarves, it really leaves Gnomes as the only 'tiny' race. I think now that they are going full-bore Fey with them, we'll see various breeds, like the Brownie, Quickling, Redcaps, Killmoulis(?), etc... along with the newer lawn and garden varieties. http://423smith.com/wp-content/gnomes.jpg Going back to basics with these guys, I suppose, and re-building them from scratch - probably why they are waiting to see how the new take is received in the MM before going to town with a PC race.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 01:43 PM	It's David the Gnome!
Kiioro 03-12-08, 02:18 PM	This is going to be quite tragic for my DM, he loved gnomes the way they were. I couldn't care less about gnomes. ===EDIT=== EHM. Hit the button before time. Will this mean that their abilities will change drastically too? ==/EDIT===
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 02:23 PM	I think now that they are going full-bore Fey with them, we'll see various breeds, like the Brownie, Quickling, Redcaps, Killmoulis(?), etc... along with the newer lawn and garden varieties. -Is that confirmed, that Brownies, Quicklines, and so on, are Gnomish subraces? It's David the Gnome! -I remember that guy.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 07:54 PM	-I remember that guy. *laughs* Great show.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 07:54 PM	-Is that confirmed, that Brownies, Quicklines, and so on, are Gnomish subraces? Having read the article (which was really all about fomorians), my answer is no. :)
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 11:00 PM	Will this mean that their abilities will change drastically too? -Drastically? Hopefully not. But, in all likelihood, their abilities will change, to reflect the 4e system. *laughs* Great show.:) -I have mostly vague recollections of it. That, and Eureka's Castle. Having read the article (which was really all about fomorians), my answer is no. :) -Mm, that's good.
MarkusTay63 03-13-08, 02:51 AM	No, nothing official, but my logic is this - they 'grew' the halflings, and moved Gnomes over to the MM (for now), which tells me that Gnomes are now "one of the little people", to quote the Irish description of fairies (Fey). I think we may see more then Giants and Dragons getting an 'Elemental treatment' in 4e... it looks like a theme. If you take the race of 'wee folk', and slap an Elemental sub-type on each (Gnome = Earth), you end up with an endless variety of creatures for the Feywild (well, at least 16 versions of Brownie, anyway, counting the Para-Elemental and Psuedo-Elemental types). Bear in mind that they said they want people adventuring in the Elemental Maelstrom, so once again we have that 'Elemental theme' going on. They even mentioned bringing back 1e's 'Elemental Evils' for adventuring purposes. Also, you know what the new 'scientific' term for Fairies is? Elementals! The people involved in Wicca and other 'mystical' phenomena don't want to sound like idiots, so they don't refer to the 'nature spitits' as fairies anymore. Just watch Ghosthunters... they've caught a few on thermal imaging. :D I remember something else that made Wicca come to mnd in 4e, but I forget what that was. Anyway, I think maybe they are getting back to basics with this new magic system (and cosmology), and basing it on some RW stuff, like the four basic elements of Alchemy.
Jiggawha 03-13-08, 07:49 AM	don't like this at all everything has to be categorized into fey, shadow or elemental, why gnomes should be way they are, rock gnomes, with their silent ghettos, dealing in alchemy, urban agriculture, illusion, and other crafts forest gnomes, just give them a different name
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 10:35 AM	I think we may see more then Giants and Dragons getting an 'Elemental treatment' in 4e... it looks like a theme. If you take the race of 'wee folk', and slap an Elemnetal sub-type on each (Gnome = Earth), you end up with an endless variety of creatures for the Feywild (well, at least 16 versions of Brownie, anyway, counting the Para-Elemental and Psuedo-Elemental types). -Hmm, that's a good point. Isn't one of their design mantras to stop doing stuff like that, though? They supposedly don't want fifteen of the same type of creature, only with different elements or whatever.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-13-08, 10:38 AM	-Hmm, that's a good point. Isn't one of their design mantras to stop doing stuff like that, though? They supposedly don't want fifteen of the same type of creature, only with different elements or whatever. Yes--although, time will tell if they actually stick to that.
Storm_Silverhand 03-13-08, 05:38 PM	Heya, Also, you know what the new 'scientific' term for Fairies is? Elementals! The people involved in Wicca and other 'mystical' phenomena don't want to sound like idiots, so they don't refer to the 'nature spitits' as fairies anymore. I'd be very wary of making gross generalizations about Wicca. There's so many different forms of it, and so many different people and covens practicing it, and no true formal structure behind it... Some Witches might refer to them as elementals, but be assured there are probably more who still call them faeries. :) Disclaimer: I am not a Wiccan myself, so anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt.
MarkusTay63 03-13-08, 06:42 PM	True - Its just that I hear the term 'Elemental' used much more often now, in regards to scientific research into the paranormal (Like Ghosthunters). I'm sure there are plenty of 'garden Variety' Wiccans that still say 'Fairies'. ;) -Hmm, that's a good point. Isn't one of their design mantras to stop doing stuff like that, though? They supposedly don't want fifteen of the same type of creature, only with different elements or whatever.But don't you see, this actually works right into that concept. Instead of 16 DIFFERENT types of 'little people', you have just one, with an elemental template slapped on. You can do the same throughout D&D - An Azer becomes a Dwarf with the Fire Template slapped on, an Urdunnir becomes a Dwarf with the Earth Template, and so on, and so on... For Elves (Eladrin?), I can see them slapping the Air Template on one for the Avariel, or the Earth template for a Rockseer. Less Monster and PC races, but more flexibilty by adding templates to them, giving us back all those numerous 'sub-races' they have ditched. Like Shades would just be humans (or whatever) with the Shadow template, and another would be a Lich with the the 'Undeath' template. ;) It seems a much simpler way to give us the myriad racial sub-types, and also provide a easily definable set of rules for them. They did this with monsters in 3e - we knew exactly what effected a creature by its Type and Sub-type. I thought it was one of their better concepts, and I can see them taking it forward into 4e with all this talk of Elemental Giants and Dragons. Thread re-direct: I didn't want to start a whole new one, so I thought I could just broaden this ones purpose. What kind of Gnomes does everyone like? The designers (as Rich B. has stated) have no clue as of right now as to which direction to go with the Gnome race. They want to come up with a cool 'concept' for them, before they go balls to the wall with them. So, would you rather see a race of small forest folk, a group of Urban middlemen, or just a slighter built race of small dwarves (like they are now), with perhaps something 'screwy' thrown in to define them, like Gully Dwarves from DL, that live in the Hills? Or maybe go full-bore DL and use the Tinker-Gnomes, like they did for Spelljammer? There are a lot of choices here; I suggested the Frost Gnomes from UA in the Designers thread (I just love the pic) - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ArcticGnome.jpg But now I'm thinking I like the way they were done in Arcanum: They came off as helpful little Urban businessmen, but they were in fact secretly a group of cut-throat merchants who's competition would often 'just dissappear'. They were also not above immoral 'experimentaion' on other races, and even bread Half-Ogres as a sort-of 'slave-race' (they called them servants, but they were treated like garbage). They also failed to let Humans know that many human women died in childbirth during the process of creating a viable, self-sustaining race. I remember discovering the secret lab on a hidden island, and reading the log-books of the 'mad scientists' - Very cool stuff. So, what would everyone like to see for the Gnomes? Cutesy little 'Travelocity' style Garden Gnomes, or 'dark' little manipulators, who are really the ones pulling the strings behind many sinister Cartels? Should they take over Sossal in 4e, or should they find a home on the Tropical Island of Lantan? Whats everyone's take on this?
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 06:50 PM	But don't you see, this actually works right into that concept. Instead of 16 DIFFERENT types of 'little people', you have just one, with an elemental template slapped on. -Well, I didn't mean it as literal as that. I meant that one of the design mantras is that they want to get away from the idea of there being a subrace, family or whatever you want to call it of every creature to reflect every element/alignment. Like a 'Red Meanie', a 'Blue Meanie', a 'Green Meanie', a 'Law Meanie', and so on. What kind of Gnomes do everyone like? -In my own setting, I use 'traditional' Gnomes, but the setting has been influenced by Tinker Gnomes. I like Tinker Gnomes, but, at times, the concept, and the way they are portrayed, seems a little silly and goofy. The problem, I think, with 'traditional' Gnomes is that they haven't found their exact niche. I tend to portray them more or less as Dwarven-Human hybrids. They espouse Dwarven values and tendencies, but are more cosmopolitan and aloof, like Humans. EDIT: Oh, and of course, they love their alchemy!
Khaelieth 03-13-08, 06:54 PM	i RP my gnomes as more fey-styled creatures that live in forests/rocks. Always thought they were better as that than just Human mk. Ewok.
Another Gnome 03-14-08, 03:13 AM	I use a mixture of nature-loving magic-infused fey folk, and hardcore steampunk scientists. And when asked about the two aspects being rather contradictive, the gnomes will give you a long, blank stare as though you had just said something incredibly stupid, then shrug and get back to work. In other words, Step 1: Talk to furry animal Step 2: Build steam engine Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit
Khaelieth 03-14-08, 08:14 AM	I use a mixture of nature-loving magic-infused fey folk, and hardcore steampunk scientists. And when asked about the two aspects being rather contradictive, the gnomes will give you a long, blank stare as though you had just said something incredibly stupid, then shrug and get back to work. In other words, Step 1: Talk to furry animal Step 2: Build steam engine Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit Nonono... Step 1: Take socks Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-14-08, 11:22 AM	So, what would everyone like to see for the Gnomes? Cutesy little 'Travelocity' style Garden Gnomes, or 'dark' little manipulators, who are really the ones pulling the strings behind many sinister Cartels? I'm not picky.:) I like gnomes of all types--forest gnomes, urban gnomes, the occasional evil gnome. Heck, I even enjoy the much-maligned tinker gnomes, as long as it's in small doses.
Another Gnome 03-15-08, 04:30 AM	So... I like them deep gnomes I like them rock gnomes I like them Vaasan gnomes I like them mixed race gnomes I like them Sembian gnomes I like them Amnian gnomes I like the Lantanese gnomes And I like Waterdhavian gnomes I like them tall gnomes I like them short gnomes I like them brown hair gnomes I like them blonde hair gnomes I like them big gnomes I like them skinny gnomes I like them carrying a little bitty weight gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes (With apologies to Calvin Harris)
Lord Karsus 03-15-08, 11:19 AM	I like all the gnomes I like all the gnomes -I bet you would...;)
GothicDan 03-15-08, 01:23 PM	Another Gnome is bi. That being said, I've always loved gnomes. In one of my settings, I deleted Halflings and promoted Gnomes. I treated my Gnomes as masters of illusions, engineering, intrigue, trade, and travel. They were actually some of the most worldwide influential races in the world - more so than the Elves, who were more powerful pound for pound, but with little external influence. I also strapped gnomes to the bellies of giant bats and gave them mighty steam engine-esque crossbows. They protected the giant, floating mountain in which they lived.
Green Elven Vampire 03-15-08, 05:23 PM	Gnomes are about as Fey as a microwave oven!
Khaelieth 03-15-08, 06:23 PM	Gnomes are about as Fey as a microwave oven! Nah, always saw them as just as fey as elves
GothicDan 03-15-08, 06:25 PM	I never saw them as that fey, largely because we've never had any real connections between Gnomes or the Gnomish pantheon and the Seelie Court. The Spriggan Gnomes are another story.
Khaelieth 03-15-08, 06:28 PM	I never saw them as that fey, largely because we've never had any real connections between Gnomes or the Gnomish pantheon and the Seelie Court. The Spriggan Gnomes are another story. it's more of a personal view. "The Forgotten Folk" are just very fey, imo. Running around forests etc.
Another Gnome 03-16-08, 11:26 AM	Another Gnome is bi. :ahem: I prefer the term metrophilgnomopic, thank you very much!
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 07:15 AM	-As I said earlier, I never say Gnomes as Fey, either. Eldrich and magical, yes. Fey, no. Sylvan, no.
MarkusTay63 03-18-08, 11:54 AM	D&D Gnomes were never Fey before, but since they've decided to go back to their 'folklore roots' with D&D Fairy stuff, then it does make some sense. The Cartoon Gnomes definately had a 'Fey' bent to them, and were based on the ones from that book (the cover of which I already posted). However, that book wasn't really based on any of the myths - AFAIK, Gnomes were never said to live in forests. In folklore, Gnome were more like Dwarves, and most likely another name for them. They lived underground and spent most of their time mining. However, if we go back even further to the Elder Eddas, Dwarves and Elves were the same race, and since Elves later became associated with the Fey (when the Norse invaded Brittany and possibly Gaul), we have our round-about folklore connection - Gnomes = Dwarves = Elves = Fey Which is just plain ridiculous in D&D terms. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-18-08, 11:57 AM	The Cartoon Gnomes definately had a 'Fey' bent to them, and were based on the ones from that book (the cover of which I already posted). However, that book wasn't really based on any of the myths - AFAIK, Gnomes were never said to live in forests. The thing about myths is that there are often different variations of them. A recent variation is as legitimate as any other.:)
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 12:22 PM	Gnomes = Dwarves = Elves = Fey -Where do Warforged fit in there? ;)
MarkusTay63 03-18-08, 01:57 PM	Toaster = Golems = Automatons = Bloodforged = Thalluds = Warforged. :D Plus, I think those Forest Gnomes all eventually wandered to close to a Cerullean Node, causing them all to turn blue and leaving only one female left alive. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Smurfette_then_and_now.jpg
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 02:08 PM	Toaster = Golems = Automatons = Bloodforged = Thalluds = Warforged. :D -Makes sense...So, next time I toast a bagel, I should probably leave my toaster tribute, eh?
Khaelieth 03-18-08, 03:35 PM	Once had a quite light-hearted campaign, was my second one (my first campaign ever introduced velociraptors to Cormyr. Adventurers never left their horses unsupervised after that) where someone was playing a gnome. Everyone had a fear of worgs after an incident which left them sleeping in trees. After a dungeon haul, they got a cart to carry all the gold back to the town. After trekking back, the gnome said he wanted to do some fixing on it. He placed a ballista on the cart. Said it was to scare worgs. Was very, very amusing when they got attacked by a worg pack. They were ecstatic they could fire a ballista! Therefore, i find gnomes quite amusing. Those who play them tend to come up with some exceptionally amusing ideas!
Valgard 03-19-08, 04:17 AM	Well, just to present my humble knowledge of myths, if we wanted the original folklore myth of gnomes, they should be elementals. Air Elementals: Sylphs. Earth Elementals: Gnomes. Fire Elementals: Salamanders. Water Elementals: Nymphs. But... who argues that nymphs aren't fey but elementals? Same with gnomes? :D
Rauric 03-19-08, 09:40 AM	Nah, always saw them as just as fey as elves Yep.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-19-08, 11:22 AM	-Makes sense...So, next time I toast a bagel, I should probably leave my toaster tribute, eh? Remember that all toasters toast toast!
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 02:15 PM	Air Elemental: Sylphid Earth Elemental: Gnome Fire Elemental: Salamando Water Elemental: Undine -That's how it should be. :) Remember that all toasters toast toast! -Ah, that's right. I run into the bagel predicament again...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-19-08, 08:38 PM	-Ah, that's right. I run into the bagel predicament again... Check out the enclosed instruction book.
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 09:52 PM	Check out the enclosed instruction book. -Yeah, I didn't heed that advice from last time...
MarkusTay63 03-19-08, 11:47 PM	A Nymph is a generic term for a female nature spirit; if you want the Nymph to be about water, then she would be a Naiad. ;) Undine, I will admit, is a much better fit. And just because I found it while looking for a Gnome pic, I thought I'd post this - REAL life Gnome/Fey encounters. (http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa021703a.htm) Pretty interesting - on last season of Ghosthunters, the team caught a group of 'little people' moving through the woods on Infrared in Ireland. They went looking for ghosts, and found Fairies! (They called them 'Elementals' though, except for right at the very end) The truth is out there. :incog:
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 11:56 PM	A Nymph is a generic term for a female nature spirit; if you want the Nymph to be about water, then she would be a Naiad. ;) Undine, I will admit, is a much better fit. -That's all from a video game. REAL life Gnome/Fey encounters. (http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa021703a.htm) :: Best Hick Voice :: -This one time, after 'ah drank gran-pap's moonshine, 'ah saw a ghost, I did! Real'y!
Another Gnome 03-20-08, 02:47 AM	-That's all from a video game. Secret of Mana? One of my fave SNES games. :)
Lord Karsus 03-20-08, 02:56 AM	Secret of Mana? One of my fave SNES games. :) -Hells yeah! :cool: -If there was a High-Five emoticon, I would have used it.
Valgard 03-20-08, 04:02 AM	-That's how it should be. :)A Nymph is a generic term for a female nature spirit; if you want the Nymph to be about water, then she would be a Naiad. ;) Undine, I will admit, is a much better fit. Thanks for the clarification, but what I said is still true. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-20-08, 10:56 AM	Pretty interesting - on last season of Ghosthunters, the team caught a group of 'little people' moving through the woods on Infrared in Ireland. They went looking for ghosts, and found Fairies! (They called them 'Elementals' though, except for right at the very end) The truth is out there. :incog: Suuuuuuuuuure!:P
MarkusTay63 03-20-08, 10:59 PM	I have had at least four 'unexplained' phenomena happen to me, so I'm a little more open-minded, I suppose. And NO, I do not count the time I saw Satan while on Mescaline. :P