Knight of the Eternal Order question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Knight of the Eternal Order question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mel Ann Cholly
07-08-07, 02:37 AM Champions of Valor (and a couple other places) states that paladins of Kelemvor's order of knights can freely multiclass as clerics and doomguides. But doomguides have to be LN. How can a character do both? You'd have to ignore the alignment restriction of one of the two classes to be able to do both.

Has this been errataed anywhere?

Thanks.
mcJoker
07-08-07, 08:28 AM I'm not seeing the problem since unearthed arcana undoes most of the LG requirements for a Paladin.

Something I've always seen as questionable to begin with, since, imho, one could be a paladin of an evil cause...and no, that's not a blackguard...at least not initially.

A Paladin in the typically known sense is limited to LG, however I would think LN and LE can be good representations of paladins for the Neutral and Evil alignments...who is to say that they could not have similar abilities? The changes that I've done in home-brew are as follows.

LN Paladins:
Smite Evil to Smite Chaos (or keep it at Smite Evil...depends on the deity)

Aura of Good to Aura of Neutrality (this would identify someone who is willing to hear both sides and tends not to favor one or the other)

Turn Undead to Rebuke Undead (or keep it at TU, dependant on the deity)

Detect Evil to Detect Chaos (though Neutral, there is the Lawful aspect...can also be kept at DE dependant on the deity)

Lawful Evil Paladins
Smite Evil to Smite Good

Aura of Good to Aura of Evil

Turn Undead to Rebuke or Command Undead (dependant on the deity)

Detect Evil to Detect Good

Lay on Hands to Disruptive or Painful Touch (basically changing the heal wounds property to inflict wounds)
Valgard
07-08-07, 04:14 PM I don't think that's a solution... when these FR sources mention paladins they refer to lawful good paladins, and they are saying that LG paladins can multiclass with LN doomguide. There's no official errata concerning this, and when this matter was posted before there was some ideas, mainly to permit both LG and LN characters with such combination.

In my very personal opinion, I would allows LG doomguides but not LN paladins of Kelemvor. I am of the opinion that, althought other variant paladin classes look interesting, they are not paladins... Paladins are the LG ones!
ClobberinTime
07-08-07, 07:46 PM I agree, if I were going to loosen the alignment restrictions I would do it on the Doomguide, and not the paladin. Paladin's in FR have a pretty long history of LG.

Also the rules in Unearthed Arcana are optional and not officially part of the RAW.
Diffan
07-08-07, 09:21 PM I'd probably change the requirements for the Doomguide, but the problem with it is that you have to be able to cast speak with dead, which is a 3rd level cleric spell. I did create this Initiate Feat to some what help a paladin become one:

Initiate of Kelemvore
Your are inducted into the deepest secrets of Kelemvore's church
Prerequisites: Paladin 4th level, Chosen Deity: Kelemvore
Power Granted: May turn undead as a cleric of the same level.
Bonus Spells:
1st- Hide from Undead
3rd- Speak with Undead
Valgard
07-09-07, 06:27 AM I'd probably change the requirements for the Doomguide, but the problem with it is that you have to be able to cast speak with dead, which is a 3rd level cleric spell. I did create this Initiate Feat to some what help a paladin become one:

Initiate of Kelemvore
Your are inducted into the deepest secrets of Kelemvore's church
Prerequisites: Paladin 4th level, Chosen Deity: Kelemvore
Power Granted: May turn undead as a cleric of the same level.
Bonus Spells:
1st- Hide from Undead
3rd- Speak with UndeadIt's not a bad idea. Personally I would change the name of the feat such as Initiate of the Eternal Order because maybe there should be another Initiate feat for clerics... but it's not a bad idea.
Diffan
07-09-07, 08:13 AM It's not a bad idea. Personally I would change the name of the feat such as Initiate of the Eternal Order because maybe there should be another Initiate feat for clerics... but it's not a bad idea.

Thanks! I was just kinda going with the flow naming it after Kelemvore, since there are alot of Initiate feats that follow other deities. Initiate of the Eternal Order isn't a bad idea either, thanks for the suggestion. Also, the only other problem I have with it is that you don't recieve a 3rd level paladin spell until 11th level. Which means that you can only take 9 levels of the PrC. I don't know what the 10 lvl ability is, but it's usually the best out of a PrC.
SmartPaladin
07-09-07, 11:41 AM At level 10 for Doomguide's, you get a bonus feat, and Kelemvor's Grace. Which grants you immunity to energy drain and death effects. As well as granting your allies within 10ft a +4 saving throw bonus against death effects and negative levels.
Mad Mage
07-09-07, 01:36 PM Just asked Richard Baker about the whole Doomguide conundrum, and he said this:

I would say that the specific indulgence granted in the web enhancement overrides the normal alignment restriction. Let the multiclassed paladin play a Lawful Good doomguide, I think it would be fine.
Diffan
07-09-07, 04:28 PM At level 10 for Doomguide's, you get a bonus feat, and Kelemvor's Grace. Which grants you immunity to energy drain and death effects. As well as granting your allies within 10ft a +4 saving throw bonus against death effects and negative levels.

that's a pretty good ability. I guess if the character went paladin 11/doomguide 9, there's no reason his 21st level couldn't be 1 more level in doomguide.
Mel Ann Cholly
07-09-07, 04:41 PM Just asked Richard Baker about the whole Doomguide conundrum, and he said this:

Awesome, thanks.

And thanks everyone else for helping out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mel Ann Cholly 07-08-07, 02:37 AM	Champions of Valor (and a couple other places) states that paladins of Kelemvor's order of knights can freely multiclass as clerics and doomguides. But doomguides have to be LN. How can a character do both? You'd have to ignore the alignment restriction of one of the two classes to be able to do both. Has this been errataed anywhere? Thanks.
mcJoker 07-08-07, 08:28 AM	I'm not seeing the problem since unearthed arcana undoes most of the LG requirements for a Paladin. Something I've always seen as questionable to begin with, since, imho, one could be a paladin of an evil cause...and no, that's not a blackguard...at least not initially. A Paladin in the typically known sense is limited to LG, however I would think LN and LE can be good representations of paladins for the Neutral and Evil alignments...who is to say that they could not have similar abilities? The changes that I've done in home-brew are as follows. LN Paladins: Smite Evil to Smite Chaos (or keep it at Smite Evil...depends on the deity) Aura of Good to Aura of Neutrality (this would identify someone who is willing to hear both sides and tends not to favor one or the other) Turn Undead to Rebuke Undead (or keep it at TU, dependant on the deity) Detect Evil to Detect Chaos (though Neutral, there is the Lawful aspect...can also be kept at DE dependant on the deity) Lawful Evil Paladins Smite Evil to Smite Good Aura of Good to Aura of Evil Turn Undead to Rebuke or Command Undead (dependant on the deity) Detect Evil to Detect Good Lay on Hands to Disruptive or Painful Touch (basically changing the heal wounds property to inflict wounds)
Valgard 07-08-07, 04:14 PM	I don't think that's a solution... when these FR sources mention paladins they refer to lawful good paladins, and they are saying that LG paladins can multiclass with LN doomguide. There's no official errata concerning this, and when this matter was posted before there was some ideas, mainly to permit both LG and LN characters with such combination. In my very personal opinion, I would allows LG doomguides but not LN paladins of Kelemvor. I am of the opinion that, althought other variant paladin classes look interesting, they are not paladins... Paladins are the LG ones!
ClobberinTime 07-08-07, 07:46 PM	I agree, if I were going to loosen the alignment restrictions I would do it on the Doomguide, and not the paladin. Paladin's in FR have a pretty long history of LG. Also the rules in Unearthed Arcana are optional and not officially part of the RAW.
Diffan 07-08-07, 09:21 PM	I'd probably change the requirements for the Doomguide, but the problem with it is that you have to be able to cast speak with dead, which is a 3rd level cleric spell. I did create this Initiate Feat to some what help a paladin become one: Initiate of Kelemvore Your are inducted into the deepest secrets of Kelemvore's church Prerequisites: Paladin 4th level, Chosen Deity: Kelemvore Power Granted: May turn undead as a cleric of the same level. Bonus Spells: 1st- Hide from Undead 3rd- Speak with Undead
Valgard 07-09-07, 06:27 AM	I'd probably change the requirements for the Doomguide, but the problem with it is that you have to be able to cast speak with dead, which is a 3rd level cleric spell. I did create this Initiate Feat to some what help a paladin become one: Initiate of Kelemvore Your are inducted into the deepest secrets of Kelemvore's church Prerequisites: Paladin 4th level, Chosen Deity: Kelemvore Power Granted: May turn undead as a cleric of the same level. Bonus Spells: 1st- Hide from Undead 3rd- Speak with UndeadIt's not a bad idea. Personally I would change the name of the feat such as Initiate of the Eternal Order because maybe there should be another Initiate feat for clerics... but it's not a bad idea.
Diffan 07-09-07, 08:13 AM	It's not a bad idea. Personally I would change the name of the feat such as Initiate of the Eternal Order because maybe there should be another Initiate feat for clerics... but it's not a bad idea. Thanks! I was just kinda going with the flow naming it after Kelemvore, since there are alot of Initiate feats that follow other deities. Initiate of the Eternal Order isn't a bad idea either, thanks for the suggestion. Also, the only other problem I have with it is that you don't recieve a 3rd level paladin spell until 11th level. Which means that you can only take 9 levels of the PrC. I don't know what the 10 lvl ability is, but it's usually the best out of a PrC.
SmartPaladin 07-09-07, 11:41 AM	At level 10 for Doomguide's, you get a bonus feat, and Kelemvor's Grace. Which grants you immunity to energy drain and death effects. As well as granting your allies within 10ft a +4 saving throw bonus against death effects and negative levels.
Mad Mage 07-09-07, 01:36 PM	Just asked Richard Baker about the whole Doomguide conundrum, and he said this: I would say that the specific indulgence granted in the web enhancement overrides the normal alignment restriction. Let the multiclassed paladin play a Lawful Good doomguide, I think it would be fine.
Diffan 07-09-07, 04:28 PM	At level 10 for Doomguide's, you get a bonus feat, and Kelemvor's Grace. Which grants you immunity to energy drain and death effects. As well as granting your allies within 10ft a +4 saving throw bonus against death effects and negative levels. that's a pretty good ability. I guess if the character went paladin 11/doomguide 9, there's no reason his 21st level couldn't be 1 more level in doomguide.
Mel Ann Cholly 07-09-07, 04:41 PM	Just asked Richard Baker about the whole Doomguide conundrum, and he said this: Awesome, thanks. And thanks everyone else for helping out.