Post/Author/DateTime	Post
meto30 10-17-07, 01:54 PM	I was going to implement Roman Legion style armies into Chessenta, and the question of stats for the ordinary legionnary soldier came into my focus. Originally, since RW legions had legionnaries as hard-hitter elite troops and used auxilliae, similar to a militia, for general purposes, I was thinking that Legion-style soldiers in FR would too be elite versions of ordinary soldiers. This came to the conclusion that Legionnaries will be 1st level fighters, with officers being ftr1/marshall1 and Centurions being a ftr2/marshall1. However, DMG gives me the expression that fighters are very hard to find in the world, it seems like the fighter class is reserved for adventurers and knights. Since legions are supposed to be citizen-based (although professional), fighter class might be unreasonable, maybe? The same problem exists with giving the class marshall to every single officer. But then the whole idea of my 'idealized' Rome is a seriously unbalanced super-army. I'm going to have legions ramapage through Chessenta and Unther in a colossal war of conquest. Tchazzar will be reimagined as a strategist/opportunist/politician dragon, much like Caesar of old. If anyone has ideas on how this play out, or suggestions on alternate methods of representing legions rules-wise, I'd like to hear them. EDIT: There's a reason my picture is that of Tchazzar... I am a fan of Caesar and I thought Tchazzar sounded an awful lot like the "Balding Womanizer". ;)
dragonheart 10-17-07, 09:53 PM	While the vast majority of "citizen warriors" would be warrior class in your case the legionaires should be fighters not warriors - these are professionals now not "citizen-warriors" they have had the additional training and practice and weeding out to rasie their status. I wouldn't use the marshal class/PRC for low level "officers" just as modern military units have a number of NCO ranks first before you get to the comissioned ranks - the marshal should be reserve for the "commissioned" officers - probably those commanding at least 20-30 troops. Generally in my campaign I use 1 L2 fighter as a corporal for each 5 troops, 1 L3 fighter as a sgt for ech set of 10 troops (+ 1 corporal) and then one F4/M1 as a Lt for each unit of 20 soldiers (+2 corporals and 2 sgts).
meto30 10-17-07, 10:24 PM	I wouldn't use the marshal class/PRC for low level "officers" just as modern military units have a number of NCO ranks first before you get to the comissioned ranks - the marshal should be reserve for the "commissioned" officers - probably those commanding at least 20-30 troops. Generally in my campaign I use 1 L2 fighter as a corporal for each 5 troops, 1 L3 fighter as a sgt for ech set of 10 troops (+ 1 corporal) and then one F4/M1 as a Lt for each unit of 20 soldiers (+2 corporals and 2 sgts). If I follow your recommendation, then Centurion, the lowest ranking 'commisoned officer', would be a marshal, and Optios and Signifers would be marshals as well (as they together commanded 100 men). I wasn't planning on giving Decurions and Cornicens marshall class anyway. Is there a serious stat difference between the warrior class and the fighter class? My rulebook mentions no difference except for the bonus feats fighters get. PS: Centurion commands a Centuria, which is 100 men. Optio is his second in command. Signifer holds the centuria banner, and is responsible for raising morale. Decurion commands the contubernium, a group of 10 men that shared the same tent. Cornicens is the guy holding the horn.
Dark Wizard 10-18-07, 12:06 AM	Is there a serious stat difference between the warrior class and the fighter class? My rulebook mentions no difference except for the bonus feats fighters get. I believe Warriors have a d8 hit die compared to the Fighter's d10. Coupled with the Fighter's bonus feat, the Fighter has significant advantages over Warrior. I believe their skills list is more limited as well. To further differentiate between the elite Fighter and the militia Warrior you can add gear and stat arrays (regular, enhanced and elite) into the equation.
meto30 10-18-07, 12:54 AM	I believe Warriors have a d8 hit die compared to the Fighter's d10. Coupled with the Fighter's bonus feat, the Fighter has significant advantages over Warrior. I believe their skills list is more limited as well. To further differentiate between the elite Fighter and the militia Warrior you can add gear and stat arrays (regular, enhanced and elite) into the equation. Thank you! :) That difference cleared a lot of questions for me. I've fleshed out stats for a legionnary as follows Legionnary of Tchazzar Male human fighter 1 LN Medium Humanoid Init 1; Senses Listen +0, Spot+0 Languages Chessentan, Common AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+1 Dex, +5 armor, +4 shield) hp 8(1 HD) Fort +3, Ref +1, Will+0 ------------------------------------------ Speed 20ft. (4 squares) Melee mwk short sword (1d6/19-20,x2) Ranged pilum (1d8/19-20,x2) Base Atk +1; Grp +2; Atk Options Tower Shield Cover Combat Gear none ------------------------------------------ Abilities Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 10 Feats Weapon Specialization (short sword), Endurance, Diehard Skills Climb +2, Jump+2, Intimidate+2, Swim+2 Posessions breastplate, mwk short sword, dagger, tower shield, 3 pila .... 20 AC. Must be nearly invincible from blows made by militiamen...
meto30 10-18-07, 01:42 AM	Even more stats Decurion of Tchazzar (Infantry) Male human fighter 2 LN Medium Humanoid Init 1; Senses Listen +0, Spot+1 Languages Chessentan, Common AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+1 Dex, +5 armor, +4 shield) hp 15(2 HD) Fort +4, Ref +1, Will+0 ------------------------------------------ Speed 20ft. (4 squares) Melee mwk short sword (1d6/19-20,x2) Ranged pilum (1d8/19-20,x2) Base Atk +2; Grp +3; Atk Options Tower Shield Cover Combat Gear none ------------------------------------------ Abilities Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 10 Feats Weapon Specialization (short sword), Endurance, Diehard Weapon Specialization (pilum) Skills Climb+2, Jump+2, Intimidate+2, Swim+2, Spot+1 Posessions breastplate, mwk short sword, dagger, tower shield, 3 pila Centurion of Tchazzar (Infantry) Male human fighter 4, marshall 1 LN Medium Humanoid Init 1; Senses Listen +3, Spot+5 Languages Chessentan, Common, Draconic AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+1 Dex, +5 armor, +4 shield) hp 40 (5 HD) Fort +7, Ref +2, Will+4 ------------------------------------------ Speed 20ft. (4 squares) Melee mwk short sword +1 (1d6+2/19-20,x2) Ranged pilum (1d8/19-20,x2) Base Atk +4; Grp +5; Atk Options Tower Shield Cover Combat Gear potion of cure minor wounds 2 ------------------------------------------ Abilities Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12 Feats Weapon Specialization (short sword), Endurance, Diehard Weapon Specialization (pilum), Weapon Focus (short sword) Skills Climb +2, Jump+2, Intimidate+8, Swim+2, Diplomacy+4, Knowledge(Chessenta)+2, Knowledge(Royalty)+2, Knowledge(Engin.)+2 Listen+2, Perform(Oratory)+6, SenseMotive+2, Spot+4 Posessions combat gear, chainmail, mwk short sword +1, dagger, tower shield +1, 3 pila Optia of Tchazzar (Infantry) Male human fighter 3, marshall 1 LN Medium Humanoid Init 1; Senses Listen +3, Spot+4 Languages Chessentan, Common AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+1 Dex, +5 armor, +4 shield) hp 32 (4 HD) Fort +6, Ref +2, Will+3 ------------------------------------------ Speed 20ft. (4 squares) Melee mwk short sword +1 (1d6/19-20,x2) Ranged pilum (1d8/19-20,x2) Base Atk +4; Grp +5; Atk Options Tower Shield Cover Combat Gear potion of cure minor wounds 1 ------------------------------------------ Abilities Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10 Feats Weapon Specialization (short sword), Endurance, Diehard Weapon Specialization (pilum), Skills Climb +2, Jump+2, Intimidate+7, Swim+2, Diplomacy+4, Knowledge(Chessenta)+2, Knowledge(Engin.)+2 Listen+3, Perform(Oratory)+4, SenseMotive+2, Spot+4 Posessions combat gear, breastplate, mwk short sword +1, dagger, tower shield +1, 3 pila Signifer of Tchazzar (Infantry) Male human fighter 3, marshall 1 LN Medium Humanoid Init 1; Senses Listen +3, Spot+4 Languages Chessentan, Common AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 15 (+1 Dex, +5 armor) hp 32 (4 HD) Fort +6, Ref +2, Will+3 ------------------------------------------ Speed 20ft. (4 squares) Melee mwk short sword +1 (1d6/19-20,x2) Ranged pilum (1d8/19-20,x2) Base Atk +4; Grp +5; Atk Options Combat Expertise Combat Gear potion of cure minor wounds 1 ------------------------------------------ Abilities Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10 Feats Weapon Specialization (short sword), Endurance, Diehard Weapon Specialization (pilum), Skills Climb +2, Jump+2, Intimidate+7, Swim+2, Diplomacy+4, Knowledge(Chessenta)+2, Knowledge(Engin.)+2 Listen+3, Perform(Oratory)+4, SenseMotive+2, Spot+4 Posessions combat gear, breastplate, mwk short sword +1, dagger, centuria banner, 3 pila I don't know what I'll give the Cornicens, though. He plays the centuria horn and the marching drum, but giving him the bard class won't work because I need him to be Lawful just like everyone else. And I'm not giving him the marshal class (there already are three marshals in a centuria) More senior Centuriones and Optiae will have additional levels in marshall. The Primus Pilus, who is the most senior centurion in an entire legion, would be a ftr4/marshall4. He would be stronger than the Legatus, who is the general in charge of the legion.
Another Gnome 10-18-07, 07:14 AM	Your sample legionnaires are missing feats; fighters get shield and tower shield proficiency for free. As for pilum, I think 1d8/x3 (both melee and 20' ranged attacks) would seem more appropriate for a thrown weapon whose damage depends on penetration. Either way, since you're turning both javelin and shortspear obsolete, make it an exotic weapon. Alternatively, if you're primarily using pilums for throwing and don't mind missing the option to use them with a shield in melee, simply use the regular spear.
Suin Bahhar 10-18-07, 09:37 AM	Here ya go, add a Nurse of Tchazzar! Curator of Tchazzar (Infantry) Female human expert 1 LN Medium Humanoid Init +1; Senses Listen +0, Spot+0 Languages Chessentan, Common AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex) hp 4 (1 HD) Fort +0, Ref +1, Will+2 ------------------------------------------ Speed 30ft. (6 squares) Melee +0 mwk scalpel (1d2/19-20,x2) or +0 dagger (1d4(19-20),x2) Ranged +1 light crosbow (1d8/19-20,x2) Base Atk +0; Grp +0; Atk Options None Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds 3 ------------------------------------------ Abilities Str 10, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12 Feats Skillfocus(surgeon) Skillfocus(heal) Skills Diplomacy+4, Heal+6, Knowledge(nobility)+5, Knowledge(nature)+5, Knowledge(alchemy)+5, Profession(Surgeon)+6, SenseMotive+4, Search+4 ------------------------------------------ Posessions healers garb, mwk healer kit, mwk scalpel, dagger Quote: "That will leave a mark" or "This will hurt a bit" Crrrunchhh
meto30 10-18-07, 03:58 PM	EDIT: Thanks, Another Gnome! I have changed the shield proficiencies to Endurance and Diehard. Signifer's Expertise and Dodge has been changed to Endurance and Diehard, too. Now my legionnaries will be able to force march longer distances! @Another Gnome: The new pilum, based on the spear, is as follows. Tchazzarian Pilum Martial Ranged Weapon (thrown) price 2 gp per piece damage 1d8/x3 piercing range 20ft, weight 6lb ----------------------------------------- Special On hit, apply ArmChckPnlt-4, AtkPnlt-4 This spear is designed to bend upon impact. The pilum would pentrate a shield, bend, and render the shield effectively useless because of the unwieldy bulk of the pilum's shaft. The pilum is embedded in armor if the attack roll was higher than 7+Defender's touch AC. Removing Pulling the bent pilum from a shield or armor is a full-round action. The strengh check DC is 13. One can attempt to remove the pilum as a standard action, which strength check DC is 20. Failing the standard action DC but meeting the full-round action DC allows one to pull it out as a standard action. Melee Use The Pilum bends on impact. Thus, this weapon is nearly useless for melee. ----------------------------------------- @Suin Bahhar: Thanks a lot for the new stats! Although I have trouble imagining a female in the legions... and their roles overlap a bit with the large number of clerics of Tiamat and Tchazzar who would march along with the legions... Perhaps non-combattant support troops who heal troops after the battle! Clerics would run out of spells quickly if they had to heal every single soldier... The clerics would concern themselves with abjuration and buffs, while the curators heal. Field Curators will be a help, too. Curators in standard legionary armor who heal soldiers and can stand for herself if she finds herself in melee.
Turin71 10-18-07, 04:59 PM	After the reforms made by....drawing blank here... The Roman army became the first professional army in history. The legionnary were well trained soldiers. I would defenately say Fighter. As you said, at the time, the roman soldier was a class above everyone else.
meto30 10-18-07, 05:11 PM	After the reforms made by....drawing blank here... The Roman army became the first professional army in history. The legionnary were well trained soldiers. I would defenately say Fighter. As you said, at the time, the roman soldier was a class above everyone else. That would be Gaius Marius, the head of the Populares Faction at the time.
Suin Bahhar 10-18-07, 05:21 PM	Remember in the realms women are just as able to be legionnaires as any man. Unless I forgot about an exception for Chessentan people... The Curators are back line support, and are there to help with injuries that require limited surgery such as broken bones, severe bloodloss and lacerations and such. Your legionnaires are from a citystate? As Akanax seems a good candidate. Or are they formed from deserters from the citystates raised under the banner of the Hidden Flame Temple in the Mearth mountains of southern Chessenta. Nice having the edge of a surprize invasion at the wrong moment, say a Dracorage? :D
meto30 10-18-07, 05:35 PM	Remember in the realms women are just as able to be legionnaires as any man. Unless I forgot about an exception for Chessentan people... Sorry if I gave that expression. I was just saying I had trouble imagining it ;) Your legionnaires are from a citystate? As Akanax seems a good candidate. Or are they formed from deserters from the citystates raised under the banner of the Hidden Flame Temple in the Mearth mountains of southern Chessenta. Nice having the edge of a surprize invasion at the wrong moment, say a Dracorage? I haven't decided yet... Yes, Akanax is a good choice, and I thank you for the advice. But I was thinking of giving Akanax a Spartan look, with red robes and hoplon shields, so legions will have to come from elsewhere... The main theme of the legions in my musings was that they are the 'chosen warriors' of Tchazzar. But Cimbar is very Athens-like, right? If the legions came from Cimbar, after the return of the father of Chessenta, then it would mean the entire legionnary system would be only an year old (My campaign began in Tarsakh 1374, two years after the Year of Rogue Dragons). To allow for training, the legionnaires would have to be older than that. Hm. I need to work on this. @Suin Bahhar: Can you give me more information about that temple you mentioned? I don't see it in my FRCS.
Suin Bahhar 10-18-07, 06:28 PM	I dont have anything official on that so I made something up for you. In my campaign the Flame Below is located underneath Cimbar, in the former hoard of Tchazzar located deep underneath the Pyramid in the middle of the city. The 2ed Old Empires book contain nice info on all the cities and its NPC's. Akanax is more likely to favor Assuran (Hoar) over Tchazzar so Cimbar makes more sense for your amy. The city is mostly LG and its people adhere Lathander mostly though. Thats why I proposed the deserter idea. The Temple of the Flame Below can be placed anywhere you want as Tchazzar must have had mutliple hoards during his life.
meto30 10-18-07, 07:05 PM	I dont have anything official on that so I made something up for you. In my campaign the Flame Below is located underneath Cimbar, in the former hoard of Tchazzar located deep underneath the Pyramid in the middle of the city. Ah. So that's why I couldn't find it. Since I'm using the setting from the Dragons of Faerun, in my campaign Tchazzar is alive and well, and is plotting in his Grand Palace of the Sceptnar. Cimbar will be his base of operations as he plots to conquer all Chessenta, again. I"m deliberately modelling my pseudohistory after the Latin Wars, and I'm giving Tchazzar 'Caesarian' traits. Thus, I don't think I'll be able to use that idea. Thanks a lot, though. The 2ed Old Empires book contain nice info on all the cities and its NPC's. Akanax is more likely to favor Assuran (Hoar) over Tchazzar so Cimbar makes more sense for your amy. The city is mostly LG and its people adhere Lathander mostly though. Thats why I proposed the deserter idea. The Temple of the Flame Below can be placed anywhere you want as Tchazzar must have had mutliple hoards during his life. Dragons of Faerun shows Tchazzar returning to Cimbar in the ending days of the Year of Rogue Dragons and taking the city by force. He is now the undesputed ruler of Cimbar. The Church of Tchazzar is a major force in this setting, and I'm planning on using this, albeit with the alignment slighly shifted to Neutral. As for the campaign plot, Tchazzar is planning on uniting all Chessenta and forming a grand army. The legions will be its centerpiece, its hardest-hitting element. The army will include the mighty hoplites of Akanax, the wizards of Cimbar, the warriors of Airspur, and the mercenaries of Soorenar. With this military engine and aid from the Tiamatan-dominted Unther he plans to conquer Mulhorrand, Thay, Chondath, and eventually the world. Now, the problem remains. How do I explain the appearance of the legions?
Suin Bahhar 10-18-07, 07:39 PM	Really nice. I am totally gonna steal some of that. So Tchazzar returns as a human or dragon? As a human he would have needed a considerable force to defeat the standing army of 15.000 men and the mercs of the Society of the Sword with 1000 men strong. Persuasion seems much easier for him as his clerics already reside in the city. Converting (or corrupting) this army could be the source of your Legionaires of Tchazzar. Furthermore there is a considerably strong alliance against Cimbar which has to be quelled or persuaded to join. The rival Akanax might resist too. War!
meto30 10-18-07, 08:20 PM	Thanks for the idea, Suin Bahhar! So, priests of Tchazzar scheme endlessly to convert the army of Cimbar into legionnaires... In Dragons of Faerun, Tchazzar returns in dragon form. I suppose the actual stat block is protected under copyrights, but he is a fiendish great wyrm red dragon, with 12 levels in the Dragon Ascendant class featured in the Draconomicon. He is a Chosen of Tiamat. Dragons of Faerun depict the other cities forming a secret alliance against Cimbar and its dragon warlord. However, when the house of Karanok was presiding over a public execution of a priest of Tchazzar, the dragon led his personal army of elite warriors (Blades of Tchazzar) into Luthcheq and killed nearly the entire Karanok family before retreating back to Cimbar. After this, most cities have temporarly stopped outright protests, but the anti-Cimbar league is still intact. In my campaign, Tchazzar will try to absorb the Chessentan cities by peaceful means. He will need the populace intact if he is going to succeed in his world conquest. I'm going to have Akanax march against Cimbar alone, and after a terrible battle Akanax will fall under the might of Tchazzar. By the time my party arrives in the area Tchazzar would be laying siege to Luthcheq. EDIT: I did some further reading on Tchazzar. It seems that his church is going to extreme lengths to stay on friendly terms with other churches in Chessenta, especially the hero cults. It says that The church of Tchazzar has a good relationship with the faiths of Azuth, Red Knight, Kossuth, and Tempus. I presume the church is on at least neutral grounds with Lathander. It is also noted that Tchazzar is 'keeping the church of Tiamat at arm's length' 'does not want to be directly associated with the Church of Tiamat, fearing he will be seen as acting in his mistress' whim'. While this does not imply any enmity nor estrangement between the Chromatic Dragon and her chosen, it can easily be twisted to mean that Tchazzar is dreaming of one day becoming free of his mistress and become the unchallenged ruler of Faerun. Imagine the schemes within schemes, plots within plots, as the two draconic churches vie for power. EDIT 2: Tchazzar can grant spells to clerics! The setting book says that Tchazzar is the only such dragon quasi-diety active in Faerun.
Bullet06320 10-24-07, 08:12 PM	Signifer holds the centuria banner, and is responsible for raising morale. Cornicens is the guy holding the horn. For theese positions consider a Bard with a martial bent As well as the the Primus Pilus, The senor most enlisted man in any Roman command. Basically a Sgt Major in Modern terms. An expierenced soldier and vetern of many battles. Adding on a few extra levels for this guys possition would be appropriate. Don't forget that Romans fought in a Phalanx, there is Phalanx fighting feat, I don't recall where or the benifits. So instead of die hard, that would be a better feat The Romans also had excellent Surgeons as well as excellent Enigeers. Some experts with the right skills would fill theese roles. Ballista and catapults were common as well as Archers and Cavalry for support
meto30 10-25-07, 03:17 PM	For theese positions consider a Bard with a martial bent As well as the the Primus Pilus, The senor most enlisted man in any Roman command. Basically a Sgt Major in Modern terms. An expierenced soldier and vetern of many battles. Adding on a few extra levels for this guys possition would be appropriate. Don't forget that Romans fought in a Phalanx, there is Phalanx fighting feat, I don't recall where or the benifits. So instead of die hard, that would be a better feat The Romans also had excellent Surgeons as well as excellent Enigeers. Some experts with the right skills would fill theese roles. Ballista and catapults were common as well as Archers and Cavalry for support I considerd the bard class as inappropriate because of the non-lawful restriction. This topic has been moved to another thread in the Faerunian Peoples and Places forum, by the way. The Phalanx feat has been applied there, in place of weapon focuses. I'm going to add more entries to that thread once' I'm done sorting through all the feats
Suin Bahhar 10-25-07, 06:36 PM	Thanks for the idea, Suin Bahhar! So, priests of Tchazzar scheme endlessly to convert the army of Cimbar into legionnaires... The clerics have been screaming from the top of their lungs that Tchazzar would come back and bring the Golden Age for about 20 years! In Dragons of Faerun, Tchazzar returns in dragon form. I suppose the actual stat block is protected under copyrights, but he is a fiendish great wyrm red dragon, with 12 levels in the Dragon Ascendant class featured in the Draconomicon. He is a Chosen of Tiamat.CR44 was it not :eek: Dragons of Faerun depict the other cities forming a secret alliance against Cimbar and its dragon warlord. However, when the house of Karanok was presiding over a public execution of a priest of Tchazzar, the dragon led his personal army of elite warriors (Blades of Tchazzar) into Luthcheq and killed nearly the entire Karanok family before retreating back to Cimbar. After this, most cities have temporarly stopped outright protests, but the anti-Cimbar league is still intact.The Karanoks had them coming. Go Blades! In my campaign, Tchazzar will try to absorb the Chessentan cities by peaceful means. He will need the populace intact if he is going to succeed in his world conquest. I'm going to have Akanax march against Cimbar alone, and after a terrible battle Akanax will fall under the might of Tchazzar. By the time my party arrives in the area Tchazzar would be laying siege to Luthcheq.These ideas are so good, you've been a great help for my personal campaign! I think my players are gonna love doing the dirty work for Tchazzar... EDIT: I did some further reading on Tchazzar. It seems that his church is going to extreme lengths to stay on friendly terms with other churches in Chessenta, especially the hero cults. It says that The church of Tchazzar has a good relationship with the faiths of Azuth, Red Knight, Kossuth, and Tempus. I presume the church is on at least neutral grounds with Lathander.Lathanders church has had some mayor follies with the Dawn Cataclysm preachers and the Hands of Blinding Light (a corrupted sect of Gargauth). Also do you know who was behind the failed shadowweave experiments in the Sceptanar palace? It is also noted that Tchazzar is 'keeping the church of Tiamat at arm's length' 'does not want to be directly associated with the Church of Tiamat, fearing he will be seen as acting in his mistress' whim'. While this does not imply any enmity nor estrangement between the Chromatic Dragon and her chosen, it can easily be twisted to mean that Tchazzar is dreaming of one day becoming free of his mistress and become the unchallenged ruler of Faerun. Imagine the schemes within schemes, plots within plots, as the two draconic churches vie for power.This is so stolen.:embarrass They are about to stumble in to the hands of a cleric of Tchazzar on the outskirts of Cimbar. EDIT 2: Tchazzar can grant spells to clerics! The setting book says that Tchazzar is the only such dragon quasi-diety active in Faerun.He was on the Dragon Aeries for about 350 years and has learned quite a bit about divinity I guess.
MarkusTay63 10-25-07, 07:28 PM	After the reforms made by....drawing blank here... The Roman army became the first professional army in history. The legionnary were well trained soldiers. I would defenately say Fighter. As you said, at the time, the roman soldier was a class above everyone else.At the Battle of Watling Street, some 10-11 thousand professional Roman Soldiers DEFEATED an enemy force that estimates claim anywhere from 100,000 to a ¼ million strong. 80,000 Celts died that day, and only 400 Romans. Thats the difference betwen fighters and warrriors. ;) Also, I would suggest using the 'War Bard' from the Iron Kingdoms rules for the Cornicens. He looks like this - http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/thumbs/lrg-156-41015_rupert_carvolo_piper_of_ord_bliste r.jpg Too bad pics are disabled in this forum. Anyhow, War-bards differ from the standard Bard class presented in the PHB as follows: Alignment: War-bards cannot be chaotic neutral or chaotic evil. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft (small arms), Creature Lore, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Jump, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spot, and Use Magic Device. Weapon Proficiences: War-bards are proficient in all simple and martial weapons. Thats it, thats all you have to do - no crazy new rules for a new PrC or anything. Also, the official 2e Pilum in tGoR did only 1d6 dmg. ;)
BadCatMan 10-25-07, 08:14 PM	Tchazzar's statted out here for anyone who's interested: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802b&page=2 CR 40. He's not the only Dragon Ascendant in the Realms either. The blue dragon Maldraedior runs a small cult in Dalath in Unther, except he's not all the way through the PrC yet. I don't think Tchazzar was on the Dragon Aerie all that time. I was under the impression he was hiding out somewhere in Chessenta, possibly manipulating the growth of his cult from the shadows. Then he was slain after being transformed into the avatar of Tiamat following the Time of Troubles, and was only returned to life at the end of the Dracorage. I'm loving this Caesar view of him, though in my own game I'm sticking with the Alexander type. If you want to make the Legions older than a year or so, perhaps Tchazzar created them in the ToT, as himself or disguised as one of his priests, or one of his clerics created them in a later war, like the 1368/9 one. We've only seen pictures of Chessentan hoplite warriors in Old Empires, prior to the ToT, so they could have upgraded after that.
meto30 10-25-07, 09:21 PM	Also, I would suggest using the 'War Bard' from the Iron Kingdoms rules for the Cornicens. He looks like this - http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMAC..._bliste r.jpg Too bad pics are disabled in this forum. Anyhow, War-bards differ from the standard Bard class presented in the PHB as follows: Alignment: War-bards cannot be chaotic neutral or chaotic evil. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft (small arms), Creature Lore, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Jump, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spot, and Use Magic Device. Weapon Proficiences: War-bards are proficient in all simple and martial weapons. Thats it, thats all you have to do - no crazy new rules for a new PrC or anything. Thanks a lot! Please allow me to call you by 'sir'. :bow: Also, the official 2e Pilum in tGoR did only 1d6 dmg. Alas, the official pilum is weak. :weep: I'll go with my custom pilum in my own campaign, makes legionnaires tougher challenges if my PCs ever decide to confront the legions. :smirk: I'm loving this Caesar view of him, though in my own game I'm sticking with the Alexander type. I think he really was FR Alexander when he was in human form in the ancient days. I'm going to say that Tchazzar has turned into Caesar after all those years plotting behind curtains to transform Cimbar into a war engine for his world domination.
MarkusTay63 10-25-07, 09:23 PM	Now all we need is a Mulhorandi dragon ascendent named Cleopadragus and we have us a love story. :love: :D :P
meto30 10-25-07, 10:50 PM	Following is my pseudohistory for my campaign. They differ greatly from official history, but to fit legionnaires I needed more active warfare. Rise of the Legions and the Return of the Father of Chessenta Decades ago rumors of the upcoming return of the father of Chessenta grew in the streets of Cimbar. The rumor spread like wildfire through the middle class, and with it tales of the ancient spendour of the Iron Legions spread about. Spies of Luthcheq and Soorenar noted this movement long before the Sceptnar of Cimbar did, and worked to stem this cult before it influenced Cimbar further into the war path. However, unknown to them, the Church of Tiamat already had its claws buried deep into the two cities, and their efforts to sabotage the growing cult failed. A new church of Tchazzar was born, one that did not have priests and temples, but rather war-clerics and barracks. The reborn Cult of Tchazzar went about in its creation of a new army following 'holy instructions' left behind by the great red dragon. For centuries the might of Chessenta lay in its citizen soldiers, mighty hoplites wielding large round shields and spears, moving with speed and dexterity. However, after the invention of the Phalanx in Akanax, the hoplite warrior was slowly transformed into the phalangite soldier. Massed in a square formation, wielding massive longspears 18 feet long, the Akanax' phalanx proved near invincible in the field. If it was not for the internal strife that burst in the City of Warriors, Akanax might have unified Chessenta. But in the brief halt, the other cities were quick to adopt this new way of war, and soon large armies of phalanx hoplites were commonplace. But what the church of Tchazzar proposed was too new to be accepted by Cimbar. No one could image the short sword defeating the sarissa pikes, much less even reach the soldier wielding it. Amidst the jokes and slander thrown its way, the Cult of the Red Dragon continued on, and from mercenaries, deserters, and its own clerics, formed the first Legion of Tchazzar. The Sceptnar sent a force of hoplites to dispatch the 'rabble cowarding behind shields', but when the outnumbered legions routed the hoplites, Cimbar had no choice but to accept the army into the city gates. As rumor of Tchazzar's return grew, so did the legion, and what was once a small force of seven hundred became a three thousand strong army. The Legatus of the Legion became an important political power. Seeing this as a threat, the skulking spies of Luthcheq pursuaded the sceptnar to destroy the Church of Tchazzar before it wrecked more damage to the 'tradition'. The plan would have worked but for one thing. Night grew old, and as the sun set at Midwinter, armies of Cimbar, summoned from the outlying colonies of the city, gathered in the city streets. As a great horn sounded in the rooftops, 14 thousand soldiers marched towards the Temple-Fortress of Tchazzar located in the port district. Sceptnar's messengers sped through the city, calling the church traitors and ursurpers of the ancient ways, and promoted a city-wide crusade against the Legion, which was, according to the messengers, plotting to take over the city and become tyrants of Cimbar. The navy was docked as well, and marines marched alongside their overland brothers, united in a single front against the power the legion had become. Within the hour the Temple Complex was completely surrounded. Legionnaires were determined to hold the enemy at bay, and manned the walls of the temple-barracks. Sages and historians disagree on which sided loosed the first arrow, but it is generally agreed that upon the third hour after sunset, the tension between the two armies broke loose, and the skies of Cimbar filled with arrows. Two columns advanced towards the east wall, and mighty catapults were assembled facing the north. The temple's guardians stood firm. Rock flew into the complex, and a mighty battering ram sped across the avenue and smashed upon the wooden gate. Shield were interlocked as oil and arrows were loosed upon the besiegers, but the gate was already sabotaged by a Soorenar infiltrator, and with the fourth blow it blew usunder, and spears marched into the temple cloister. Pila was thrown, and as the hoplites were confused by the embedded shafts, the legionnaires presented a single line of shields. However it was a street battle. The phalanx could not be flanked because of the buildings, and the formation is said to be undefeatable from the front. But the legionnaires held firm. Along the three breached streets were three cohorts, and they drew the hoplites slowly into the complex, each centuria retreating after a few minutes behind a fresh centuria. Unable to pursue retreating men because of their rigid formation, the hoplites had no choice but to face rested soldiers every ten minutes. Siege weaponry lined upon the defensive perimeter opened fire. Ballistae and Scorpione threw its giant arrows into the Cimbar catapults. As shots were exchanged, the enchanted rocks burst into flames upon impact, and the Temple of Tchazzar started burning. Legionnaires ran to and fro to extinguish the flames, but new fire kept springing up whenever a shot fell upon the temple grounds. The skies were orange from the great flame that rose from the complex. Wives and children were terrified by the sound of battle, and men watched with wariness, fearing that the legions might survive the night. But messengers of the Sceptnar tirelessly ran through the city streets, calling out songs of victory whenever the hoplites gained control of a street. Time slugged slowly as the hoplites drove the centuriae back feet by feet into the main temple. But the clerics of Tchazzar have not been idle. Seven hours after sunset, multiple delayed fireball spells activated across the temple grounds, incinerating the hoplites drawn into the complex. Amongst this chaos, a special fighting force of the legions known as the Blades of Tchazzar ran towards the east gate and shut it closed. The trapped phalangites were surrounded, and one by one they fell to pilum and sword while legionnaires used their tower shields to protect themselves. But the battle was already lost. Careless of the losses they sustained, the grand army of Cimbar threw war ladders up every wall section they could reach. The entire perimeter was about to be breached, and the Legatus ordered the final stand. Three thousand legionnaires lined up around the burning central temple. As the last hour of the night came and dawn approached, the sky slowly turned blood red. At last, eight thousand spears surrounded the legionnary soldiers. Both sides prepared for the final lunge, in a brief session of quiet. It was at that moment, admist the eirie quiet, that a crazed cleric of Tchazzar ran away from the legion's formation and stood atop a destroyed pedestal. He cried, "Father has come to embrace us! Father has come to embrace us all!" Both armies stared in wonder as the cleric kneeled and repeated his announcement. But still nothing happened. The shout echoed through the city, bewildering citizens and soldiers alike. Still nothing happened. Tired by the madness of the balding man, a captain of the hoplites, who was under employment of Soorenar, walked up to the pedestal, and pierced the screaming man in the gut. As the shouting ended, the city grew silent again, and the captain turned to face the soldiers. "What do you wait for here?" asked he. "Is it not the place of us soldiers to face death when it comes, not deny it like this fool has done? Or are all legionnaires such cowards?" The hoplites laughed, and the legionnaires stared in anger. Weapons were raised. The battle was about to recommence. But the fumbling man was not dead. He slowly rised, the spearhead embedded in his flesh, and cried out once again. "The Father has come! And you, captain, shall be the first to meet his wrath." The captain pulled his sword from the scabbard, and grasped the dieing cleric in his left arm. As the two bewildered sides watched, the captain dragged the man towards the wall, and raised his sword to deliver the blow that would signal the end of the Church of Tchazzar. This blow never fell. Choking under the presure of the captain's hand, the cleric let out a single laughter that was more like a scream. As the entire city was focused on the shrill voice, sun rose atop the mountains; a beam of light shown upon the captain and the cleric, and to the wonder of the watchers the cleric seemed to shine in his own light. And moments later, shadow fell. And it was no normal shadow. The entire city looked up in terror as a great red dragon dived through the skies and snatched up the captain and tore him apart with his claws. The captain's blood showered upon the hoplites. The hoplites were already shook by the night's grueling battle and the large number of casualties, and could not take it any longer. The front ranks were pinned by fear, and the rear ranks fled as fast as they could, throwing down their spears and shields. Many fell to the ground, tripped by their own comrades, and were crushed beneath the rampage. The dragon raised its head and roared. The sun's light reflected upon his bright red scales, glossy like a newly hatched wyrmling, but bright and magnificent like an ornamental armor of some anicent Emperor. And Emperor he was. The legionnaires cheered. The citizens watched in awe. The Sceptnar of Cimbar, who was watching the battle from her hilltop palace, could not believe her eyes. The red dragon standard was raised high in greeting to the Dragon King. The dragon turned to his loyal servants, and smiled. Legionnaires, happy beyond measure, kneeled as one, with tears in their eyes. The dragon then turned towards the Sceptnar's palace. With a fiercesome gaze that could be felt by the Sceptnar although she could not see the dragon's eyes from such a distance, the Father of Chessenta anounced to his would be subjects. "Let all who shook their heads in disbelief now shake their head in terror. Let all who spoke against me scream against their pain. Let all who denied the return be evidence of it. The long wait has ended. The Father of Chessenta is reunited with his children. And the Grand War has begun."
meto30 10-25-07, 11:04 PM	Now all we need is a Mulhorandi dragon ascendent named Cleopadragus and we have us a love story. What about the rest of the Caesar's fanclub? He wasn't called 'the balding wifehunter' for no reason. :D Ah, humanoid lovers of a great red dragon. Half dragon children become consuls and magistrates while the father rules from his Obsidian Throne...
Suin Bahhar 10-26-07, 09:06 AM	I think he really was FR Alexander when he was in human form in the ancient days. I'm going to say that Tchazzar has turned into Caesar after all those years plotting behind curtains to transform Cimbar into a war engine for his world domination.Tchazzar returned in a more fiendish form i.e. Alexander with a touch of fiend is like Caesar. He better watch his back, his undead "brother" Alasklerbanbastos (backed by the cult of the dragon) might put a poison dagger in his back! E tu, Alasklerbanbastae!
MarkusTay63 10-26-07, 09:39 AM	I thought he had an Orcish half-dragon concierge named 'Brutusk'. ;) We could always say that Cleopadragus is how Tiamet is known amongst the Mulhorandi. :D I don't know why, but having RW personages show up in FR as Dragons just tickles my fancy. :P
Zanan 10-26-07, 05:40 PM	A few points by the historian ... - As has been said, the legionary was an elite fighter at his time, a professional at that. So in essence, the fighter class suits them best. Leaders were more often than not Roman "nobility", so in that respect, they could have started as aristocrats (even if they are not exactly of "noble" blood). Most soldiers served for long periods, i.e. 20 years, so feel free to up the level - most of them are indeed "veterans" in D&D terms. On top of that, add the expert NPC class here and there, for many a Roman soldier was steeling his muscle building roads, forts, castles, walls and the like, and regularly enough to warrant some special recognition. - Ancient reports on the numbers of people slaughtered are more often than not exaggerations - either to talk up the victory, show the thread posed by the enemy and somesuch. What is true is that not all enemies theRomans encountered were warriors or even professional warriors. They knew the bloody game, no doubt, but every other day they were hunters, cattle-breeders and the like. Lacking decent tactics and training, they did not pose a real threat to the legionaries ... nor the veterans amongst the auxilliaries in a pitch battle on equal grounds. A note by the gamer ... Why have these characters above oh-so woeful ability scores? What's that, PB 15? Why is the curator a female? Unless I am mistaken, all medicine folk in a legion was male too ... though there's no need to use that in Realmslore. That said, you could be default change the "male" to "male or female" anyway, as there is no difference in D&D.
meto30 10-26-07, 08:35 PM	- As has been said, the legionary was an elite fighter at his time, a professional at that. So in essence, the fighter class suits them best. Leaders were more often than not Roman "nobility", so in that respect, they could have started as aristocrats (even if they are not exactly of "noble" blood). Most soldiers served for long periods, i.e. 20 years, so feel free to up the level - most of them are indeed "veterans" in D&D terms. On top of that, add the expert NPC class here and there, for many a Roman soldier was steeling his muscle building roads, forts, castles, walls and the like, and regularly enough to warrant some special recognition. Thank you for your guidance. Since the pseudo legions in my campaign are only about five years in service and is yet to see any true foreign campaign, I think I'll go with fighter1, but in the future we might have legionnaires with CL 4 or 5. Why have these characters above oh-so woeful ability scores? What's that, PB 15? There's a new stat block over in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=941236) if you'd like to see it. They have higher average scores.
18DELTA 10-27-07, 12:33 AM	I thought he had an Orcish half-dragon concierge named 'Brutusk'.:rofl: The thought of "Fiendish half Dragons", made me have an evilgasm!!! Big T to his kids... go get them!!!:D
MarkusTay63 10-27-07, 01:26 PM	My point was, that a PROFESSIONAL soldier should be a fighter, hence my brief and probably somewhat inaccurate (do to falibility of records) history lesson. I'm well aware that the Romans 'doctored' their history - history is ALWAYS written by the winners. :smirk: The two Legionaires in Rome that the main story was about were older then most - probably around 35-40 by the end of the series. The one scene where the guy basically walks through Nero's house and easily takes out all of his gaurds is probably spot-on. The man was a trained killing machine, much like a modern-day Commando or Navy Seal, whereas the gaurds were probably just some local thugs. There are several other scenes where the two friends fight off MUCH greater odds and win, and I would say that in every case that is probably what would have happened in RL, given their age and training (you don't survive a dozen or more campaigns unless you are VERY good). Why is the curator a female? Unless I am mistaken, all medicine folk in a legion was male too ... though there's no need to use that in Realmslore. That said, you could be default change the "male" to "male or female" anyway, as there is no difference in D&D.I was wondering when a 'chick' would pick up on that. :P Just kidding (about the 'chick' part)... when I read that, I thought the whole 'Florence Nightingale' thing was a bit anachronistic myself. Then again, this IS a fantasy setting, so the DM is free to create whatever he wants. ;)
DarthVicious074 10-27-07, 10:44 PM	I always thought that Chessenta, being a nation of city-states would be more like the Ancient Greeks. But then again, the Roman Empire was mostly city-states until just before the fall of the Empires (Holy Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire much later). in the Arms and Equipment Guide, the pilum was another name for javelin. And since when could you not use a thrown weapon like a javelin as a melee weapon? I mean, I don't remember any rule stating you couldn't, or even one stating that you would take a penalty for doing so.
meto30 10-28-07, 10:18 AM	I always thought that Chessenta, being a nation of city-states would be more like the Ancient Greeks. But then again, the Roman Empire was mostly city-states until just before the fall of the Empires (Holy Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire much later). in the Arms and Equipment Guide, the pilum was another name for javelin. And since when could you not use a thrown weapon like a javelin as a melee weapon? I mean, I don't remember any rule stating you couldn't, or even one stating that you would take a penalty for doing so. The pilum in the original post is a custom version I'm using in my campaign. It is based on the popular myth that pila bent on impact, and thus in melee it would be a one-use weapon, and more of a cumbersome staff than a bladed weapon. And I do akcnowledge the fact that Chessenta is ancient Greek. With the event in the pseudohistory I provided, Cimbar in my campaign just went through a forced transition from an Athens-style city-state to a Rome-style imperial capital.