Post/Author/DateTime	Post
VexalUntil 05-03-07, 08:28 PM	I have not found any passages in the current books specifically restricting Eilistraee's clerics to females only. Why I am asking is that i have two guys in my group playing clerics of Eilistraee. well specifically an Aasimar cleric (long story) and a half drow favored soul. I know I am able to mold the Realms to my own views of the setting, but I really want to keep it as true as possible. Also any ideas for PrCs for the Aasimar cleric would be helpful. he's wants to stay as a pure cleric and not focus on melee. so that really limits his options (not to mention ignores parts of Eilistraee's dogma). he's new to DnD so I'm trying to work with him.
Old Sage 05-03-07, 09:30 PM	As Ed has clearly explained, Eilistraee does have male divine casters and male lay worshipers. See his lengthy Nov. 5th '06 reply.
VexalUntil 05-03-07, 09:44 PM	I already read the post a couple down from this one and if I remember correctly he didn't like Divine Disciple or Champion, or Sword Dancer. Since he wants to stay cleric he can't qualify for Dervish or pretty much any of the feat heavy PrCs. it's entirely possible he'll just have to be a vanilla cleric
Terraneaux 05-04-07, 04:00 AM	Go Hierophant, pick up some caster level boosts and slas, maybe divine reach. Straight cleric is awesome anyway. it's entirely possible he'll just have to be a vanilla cleric No such thing. If anyone says differently cast Slime Wave at them.
Diffan 05-04-07, 12:41 PM	Just thumbing through the Complete Divine and there are a few PrC's that might work: Comtemplative: 1 extra Domain, Divine Health, Slippery Mind (reroll SV against enchantment), Divine Wholness (heal himself equal to 4 x his comtemplative lvl in HP/day), Divine Body (Immune to poison), Divine Soul (gains SR lvl +15), Eternal Body (cannot age magically nor suffer any aging penalties), Mystic Union (becomes magical creature, native (outsider), and DR 10/magic). Divine Oracle- might be usefull, helps with scrying and Divination spells and gains the Oracle Domain. Holy Liberator- not bad melee class, gain detect evil and smite feature, strictly chaotic class and cannot be lawful (right up Eilistraee's alley), gain a celestial compainon though no progression in cleric spells. Those are some suggestions from that book. I'd also suggest the Book of Exalted Deeds and possibly the new book coming out this month, Complete Champion.
lars 05-04-07, 03:47 PM	Males can be cleric to Eilistraee. No problems there. The specific prestigeclass to Eilistraee however is an intirely different matter. She(Eilistraee) choses those special individuals amung females. As for a fitting prestigeclass I would suggest Hierophant at at high level.
Zanan 05-04-07, 06:25 PM	Up to the ascent of D&D 3E, Eilistraee did not have any male clergy - as can be re-read in Demihuman Deities. By default and what has so far been published (sic!), nothing forbids male clerics of Eilistraee. Her prestige class Sworddancers have to be female though, in accordance to the namesake specialty priest kit as described in the book mentioned above. That said, all books out so far describing the faith, AD&D and 3E, haven't had any male cleric of Eilistraee anywhere and the females are very determined that no male watches or observes their dances. Methinks that is a tradition taken from the Diana background of Eilistraee too. Do note that divine caster does not equate with cleric (priestess). You may very well have male rangers, druids, paladins (of freedom) or the like of Eilistraee, all divine casters. In that respect, Underdark has specifically said that e.g. Lolth does not have any male divine casters (not just clerics) and those who expose themself as somesuch (not that Lolth would approve in any case), are off to the altar for sacrifice. So much for canon as written so far. Out of tradition, I do not allow male clerics of Eilistraee and see no reason why to change that. There are enough deities to chose from, no need to bow to more uniformity.
Avrandar 05-04-07, 08:55 PM	I distinctly remember a very lengthy thread similar to this one from a while back. Can anyone put up a link to it?:D
Diffan 05-06-07, 01:29 PM	e.g. Lolth does not have any male divine casters (not just clerics) and those who expose themself as somesuch (not that Lolth would approve in any case), are off to the altar for sacrifice. Wasn't it a male cleric of Lolth who healed Drizzt after he and Artemis had they're battle in Crenshinabon(sp?) and he was suprised that the spell worked, Drizzt being a renegade and all?
Zandilar 05-06-07, 07:25 PM	Heya, So much for canon as written so far. Err... Well, as far as I know, Ed Greenwood's words are canon (unless contradicted by something that's printed), and his latest words on the matter (which are from Nov 2006) are as follows: It is true that for some decades in the Realms (the time covered by the Realms boxed sets of both the 1st and 2nd Edition) there were apparently no male clerics of Lolth and no male clerics of Eilistraee, and no non-drow clergy of either goddess. However, matters have changed. Some (not all!) priestesses of Eilistraee believe the Dancer is worried about something dark she’s foreseen. Others disagree - - but all admit the Goddess has, for reasons she’s not divulged, changed the directives she gives her clergy and lay worshippers, to become far more inclusive. For one thing, the “dream visions” she’s sent to senior established clergy have begun to direct them to accept both males and individuals of many races into the ranks of her clergy. (So, yes, Kentinal, a goblin priestess, gnome priestess, silver dragon, hill giants, and male priests of all stripes now ARE possible. We still don’t know [not being able to personally quiz Eilistraee] if there are any races that remain unacceptable as her clergy, but whereas before the answer was: all of them except drow, and female drow at that, the answer now is: possibly; all certainty is gone.) There are even apparently lycanthropes and shapechanging races among the clergy of Eilistraee. Yes, you heard me right: there now ARE a few males among her church, but to enter it they have all “Danced The Changedance” and spent time as female, just as Mystra caused Elminster to spend time as Elmara - - and for the same reasons: greater understanding and sensitivity of “the life of the other gender.” One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female, and so her (still very rare, few, and generally secretive about it) male priests must spend some time as a female (not just for the duration of a ritual, but they must do some everyday living as a female). The most accomplished drow, elf, half-elf, and human male priests seem to feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to “cleave more fully to the Goddess” and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form. Not all female priests of the Goddess fully trust the males, and they don’t tend to rise much in the church hierarchy (no matter what character levels they achieve). More than that, many drow priestesses of Eilistraee are unhappy about this, and may prove hostile (not to the point of violence or refusal to accept or aid, but with a coldness in manner and a wary “always watching over” any males, until they achieve acceptance on a personal level [e.g. “I still don’t hold with allowing males - - males! - - to join the dances, but Elorand can be trusted; he’s proven himself over and over, and don’t think we haven’t tested him. Other males, I still don’t trust!”). Eilistraee has always had enough personal contact with her clergy that none of them would think of disbelieving that she truly means this “new way” to occur and to be followed - - and no established priestess of Eilistraee will renounce this new order, either. (“Reluctantly accepting and unhappily coping” is a good description of their state; “defying the goddess and rejecting males or trying to trick or lead them into fatal mishaps so we can be rid of them” would NOT be an accurate characterization.) There wasn’t a single date or clear moment when the acceptance of males and non-drow began; it seems to have been slowly and almost secretively occurring over a decade or so. However, as of 1373 DR, “everyone” among the clergy of Eilistraee now seems to be aware of it. You're free to accept that as canon or not, but technically it is. (No, I don't really like it much either - but it, unfortunately, makes sense.)
Zanan 05-07-07, 03:08 AM	Wasn't it a male cleric of Lolth who healed Drizzt after he and Artemis had they're battle in Crenshinabon(sp?) and he was suprised that the spell worked, Drizzt being a renegade and all? Yes, that was a male cleric, of Lolth. A non-entity in AD&D (as there was no option for for mage/clerics; and Lolth didn't allow males to rise above 7th (which he must have exceeded given his arcane spellcasting powers)) nor in 3E (no male clerics of Lolth), going by the name of Rai-guy.
Zanan 05-07-07, 03:13 AM	Heya, Err... Well, as far as I know, Ed Greenwood's words are canon (unless contradicted by something that's printed), and his latest words on the matter (which are from Nov 2006) are as follows: That is the saying among those who believe it. And nothing wrong here - you see, I stick to it (mostly) myself. You can go by that or stick to the general rule that written / publsihed stuff is what counts ... hence I wrote: By default and what has so far been published (sic!), nothing forbids male clerics of Eilistraee. "My" Realms will stick by what is said in DD for the time being. ... But one simply has to like the "change the gender bit", don't you? (BTW, males with in the church does not exactly mean clerics. The church consists of more divine casters than clerics and AFAIK, males were never barred from becoming rangers et al of Eilsitraee.)
Fillow 05-07-07, 03:44 AM	See his lengthy Nov. 5th '06 reply I'm sure it's a stupid question fot all of you but... What does it mean ? I understood the date you quoted but which reply did you write about ?
Zanan 05-07-07, 06:03 AM	I'm sure it's a stupid question fot all of you but... What does it mean ? I understood the date you quoted but which reply did you write about ? The Hooded One's.
Diffan 05-07-07, 07:41 AM	Yes, that was a male cleric, of Lolth. A non-entity in AD&D (as there was no option for for mage/clerics; and Lolth didn't allow males to rise above 7th (which he must have exceeded given his arcane spellcasting powers)) nor in 3E (no male clerics of Lolth), going by the name of Rai-guy. You see, I only use 2nd ed. for any lore about people and/or places in the realms and throw out all game mechanics, rules, restrictions, etc... because we've gone above and beyond that edition (thank the Gods!!). So I don't see how that would apply ie..males rising above 7th level and no mage/cleric classes in the 3.5 setting. I know it was written during the earlier editions but now we DO have male clerics receiving prayers from female drow deities and the like. I do applaude your consistancy with your realms and if it works for you, thats awesome. Play On! :)
Zandilar 05-07-07, 08:17 AM	Heya, I'm sure it's a stupid question fot all of you but... What does it mean ? I understood the date you quoted but which reply did you write about ? On the Candlekeep forums, Ed Greenwood answers questions via a friend (The Hooded One). (Candlekeep (http://www.candlekeep.com)) The post that was refered to by Old Sage was the one I quoted in my earlier post.
The_Shaman 05-07-07, 08:26 AM	I'd expect clerics of Eilistraee to be at least 90% females, at least... but perhaps the goddess could have slightly more male favored souls? Aasimars are quite well suited for either, and favored souls are more likely to be outside of the typical church structure.
Zandilar 05-07-07, 08:29 AM	Heya, "My" Realms will stick by what is said in DD for the time being. ... But one simply has to like the "change the gender bit", don't you? (BTW, males with in the church does not exactly mean clerics. The church consists of more divine casters than clerics and AFAIK, males were never barred from becoming rangers et al of Eilsitraee.) I was quite tickled by that myself. :) One of the reasons why I'm not overly happy with male clerics of Eilistraee was because there was just something... so feminine about her. Of all the moon deities of the Realms, Eilistraee resonated the strongest with me as regards to "feminine mysteries" (which, to explain for those who don't understand what I mean, are innately linked to the cycles of female biology - the monthly bleeding, and the cycle of female fertility... Neither Sehanine nor Selune really seem to have that kind of vibe to them... Eilistraee does because somewhere in my primal mythological mind, she's intrinsicly linked to the Artemis (no, not the assassin, the Greek virgin Goddess who had a Roman counterpart, Diana, and was rather vicious towards men*)). The idea that a male must take the form of a female for some period of time in order to become a part of her clergy, or to advance within the clergy, makes a heck of a lot of sense to me, and makes the whole idea marginally more acceptable. * This is the goddess who turned a male hunter (Actaeon) into a stag, and had him hunted down and killed by his own pack of dogs for seeing her and her nymphs naked - and staring.
GothicDan 05-07-07, 11:13 AM	I'll never understand the feminist need for both equality and idiosyncrasy...
Fillow 05-07-07, 11:27 AM	Thanks to Zanan, even if I didn't understand her answer ! : The Hooded One's And thanks a lot to Zandilar... who made me understand what Zanan said ! Fillow, French Faerūnian Rock Gnome Ranger... you understand where does the matter come from now ? :D
Zanan 05-07-07, 01:05 PM	You see, I only use 2nd ed. for any lore about people and/or places in the realms and throw out all game mechanics, rules, restrictions, etc... because we've gone above and beyond that edition (thank the Gods!!). So I don't see how that would apply ie..males rising above 7th level and no mage/cleric classes in the 3.5 setting. I know it was written during the earlier editions but now we DO have male clerics receiving prayers from female drow deities and the like. I do applaude your consistancy with your realms and if it works for you, thats awesome. Play On! :) Read more careful ;) . Lolth does not grant any males any spells, as has been canonized for 3RE in Underdark (for the Realms) and The Drow of the Underdark (for the rest). The chap you spoke of would not have worked in AD&d nor 3E. Eilistraee is another matter. @Zandilar ... what's your daily charge for lengthy explanations on my behalf?
Diffan 05-07-07, 03:08 PM	Read more careful ;) . Lolth does not grant any males any spells, as has been canonized for 3RE in Underdark (for the Realms) and The Drow of the Underdark (for the rest). The chap you spoke of would not have worked in AD&d nor 3E. Eilistraee is another matter. Ah, you see, I've never read those supplements nor had any clue. Thanks for the info!
The_Shaman 05-07-07, 06:52 PM	Heya, I was quite tickled by that myself. :) One of the reasons why I'm not overly happy with male clerics of Eilistraee was because there was just something... so feminine about her. Of all the moon deities of the Realms, Eilistraee resonated the strongest with me as regards to "feminine mysteries" (which, to explain for those who don't understand what I mean, are innately linked to the cycles of female biology - the monthly bleeding, and the cycle of female fertility... Neither Sehanine nor Selune really seem to have that kind of vibe to them... Eilistraee does because somewhere in my primal mythological mind, she's intrinsicly linked to the Artemis (no, not the assassin, the Greek virgin Goddess who had a Roman counterpart, Diana, and was rather vicious towards men*)). The idea that a male must take the form of a female for some period of time in order to become a part of her clergy, or to advance within the clergy, makes a heck of a lot of sense to me, and makes the whole idea marginally more acceptable. I might have to respectfully disagree. Eilistraee might be a good "maiden" goddess as far as they come, but Sylune seems to more resonate with the maid-mother-crone mythos which I would associate the basis of femininity in general, as well as the general cyclical activity. I agree that the "spend at least some time as a female" makes perfect sense (heck, the RL has seen no less weird restrictions of spiritual leaders) in a world where gender change can be relatively easy. Furthermore, it could easily be extended to several other deities (Sylune, Sehanine, any number of other fertility etc deities) in order to allow a better understanding of their perspective and thus teachings. It is telling enough that a deity of Magic - Mystra - transformed one of her chosen so that s/he can better feel the kinship She has to the Weave. BTW, as for Artemis, I always wondered if she didn't have a thing for her brother (Apollo) as well/instead. Considering that his love for Hyacinth (given as a model for homosexual relationships) was given in similar terms to the love between him and his sister, I can't quite rule some element of sexuality out.
msatran 05-07-07, 11:52 PM	Well...let's have a look at this. You can't be a male sword dancer because the PRC requirement says Female. But there's bupkis in the rules about saying that they can be anything else. Quite frankly, I don't have a problem with it, as long as you have the restrictions that Ed laid down.
Selvarin 05-08-07, 03:11 AM	Think of it this way. Gender politics has been a big undercurrent within the drow pantheon. Lolth accepts only females within her church not just because of gender superiority but because it limits the ability of Vhaerun's ilk to infiltrate. Likewise, Vhaerun limits clergy to males except for the occasional traitor-priestesses, even though he preaches the idea of equality between the sexes. Eilistraee, for the most part, seemed to limit hers to females only. And why? (Again from a personal standpoint, not looking at book editions and page numbers.) Perhaps it would be harder to induce former Lolth worshippers into the fold by daring to let men join their ranks as equals. Cultural prejudices run deeply enough among the drow without that being crossed. And yet it's hypocritical as she's the one CG deity among the drow pantheon. What a fine line to tread, especially when Eilistraee wants to bring drow males into the moonlight as well. The idea of Eilistraee allowing male 'divine casters' into one's campaign world (as opposed to allowing full clerics) is a nuanced approach to the whole issue. Limited integration but full participation, as it were. It also, however, encourages male drow PCs wishing to be clerics to serve another deity entirely---Mystra (for the magically inclined), for example, or some fey being like Erevan Ilesere. The idea of a male drow cleric of Eilistraee is a bit alien to me, however the idea of having to become female in order to understand that side better as part of the pass to become one is even moreso. As for that one drow character (A cleric/wizard?) from the Drizzt series, remember that a novel isn't the same as a gamebook. Expect a few anomalies. In any case they killed him off, removing him as a beacon of contradiction to the rules---or at least I thought they did. I don't have the book on that one.
Zanan 05-08-07, 06:57 AM	Regarding Eilistraee's liking for "females only" ... I would hazard a guess that this has been simply adopted from her role model Diana, the Roman goddess. Just look her up in any decent sourcebook with regard to habits, faith, and clergy and you will spot too many likenesses to disregard the notion. Nothing to do with the "general drow's" gender politics, methinks.
Lord_Steve 05-08-07, 12:14 PM	Them Drow and their "Gender Problems" Seriously......Vhaerun should rule!!!!
Diffan 05-08-07, 01:02 PM	As for that one drow character (A cleric/wizard?) from the Drizzt series, remember that a novel isn't the same as a gamebook. Expect a few anomalies. In any case they killed him off, removing him as a beacon of contradiction to the rules---or at least I thought they did. I don't have the book on that one. I honestly can't remember if RA killed that character or not, but it's been pretty much known in the FR world that when a FR novel is produced it's usually considered cannon, ie..Return of the Archwizards, Death of the Dragon, and Baldur's Gate I, II, and III. (no matter how silly!)
Selvarin 05-08-07, 01:43 PM	I honestly can't remember if RA killed that character or not, but it's been pretty much known in the FR world that when a FR novel is produced it's usually considered cannon, ie..Return of the Archwizards, Death of the Dragon, and Baldur's Gate I, II, and III. (no matter how silly!) Usually but not 100%, in fact I've noticed when things later happened in a series to 'correct' something that was too out of place with the game rules, or to play off a new set of rules coming in. And if a game designer can come up with a new feat or PRC based on what's in there it'll probably happen. It depends on a few things, can't imagine game designers being saddled with something they OK, since this discussion begs the question---when did Eilistraee get created and for what real purpose? I was under the impression Ed created her because TSR wanted a non-standard (i.e., good) drow deity. I kinda liked one of the dedications in Drow of the Underdark (1e): To Karen Boomgarden: Eilistraee is for you, with love and respect. But anyhow. Zanan --- I do see some resemblance to Diana but still if one is going to borrow or derive from a real-world mythology you're not going to smack it into a fantasy pantheon without creating some context. And part of the context here is a treacherous, chauvanistic pantheon of rival siblings and interlopers, ruled/threatened by a powerful queen. In a way, though, Lolth did have male clerics through Selvetarm. He is/was a kind of divine buffer between she and the male riff-raff. In the end they served her through him.
Faraer 05-08-07, 06:08 PM	Usually but not 100%, in fact I've noticed when things later happened in a series to 'correct' something that was too out of place with the game rules, or to play off a new set of rules coming in.Right, and this finessing and reinterpretation (and less often, needless retconning) applies to every other source as well.OK, since this discussion begs the question---when did Eilistraee get created and for what real purpose? I was under the impression Ed created her because TSR wanted a non-standard (i.e., good) drow deity.Right again. Exactly what the guidelines for her were, we don't know. (To beg a question is to presuppose its answer.)
Zandilar 05-08-07, 07:05 PM	Heya, I'll never understand the feminist need for both equality and idiosyncrasy... For what it's worth, Dan, I do believe in equal opportunity idosyncracy. :) Men are just as in need of their own spaces as women are.
Faraer 05-08-07, 07:14 PM	As a feminist, I certainly expect to be able to be both equal and idiosyncratic.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 12:44 AM	I would hope so, too. However, when one side starts drawing upon some vague need for idiosyncrasy to the point that it actively antagonizes the 'other side,' I think sometimes it's best to swallow one's pride (at least for a time), and try to be more diplomatic about things until something resembling a moral/intellectual consensus has been reached. I know I have my personal tastes and preferences, but they're just that. They're not ethical demands that offend me if they're not sufficiently appeased.