Post/Author/DateTime	Post
18DELTA 12-21-07, 12:45 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221 I've been trying to decide what glimpse into the D&D 4th Edition process I could share with you this month. I wanted something cool, something big, something that said "Happy holidays" to everyone in the D&D community. So I looked around at what the team and I are working on during these last few days of the work year. James Wyatt, Mike Mearls, and I are reviewing every playtest comment, every monster entry, and every rules element, but nothing in that process seems exactly right for what I'm imagining. I'm busy putting the finishing touches on the skills chapter, paragon paths, epic destinies, and magic items, but that stuff still needs to go through the editors before it's ready for prime time viewing. Michele Carter, Jeremy Crawford, and Kim Mohan -- excellent editors all -- are neck-deep in the Player's Handbook, scrubbing classes and powers so that they really shine and making sure that everything synchs up from one chapter to the next. One place where they feel pretty much done (at least until James, Mike, and I come back with an adjustment based on the feedback we're reviewing) is the races chapter. Maybe something in there will satisfy my holiday spirit I just stepped over to talk to Andy Collins, my mechanical design and development manager (he oversees all of the mechanical game designers and developers that work on my team) to see what he thinks would make a good present. After a brief conversation, and a courtesy call to Scott Rouse to get his buy off, we're all in agreement. I'm going to share with you the first look at a D&D 4th Edition race entry. And, since it is the holiday season, what better place to start than with the elf. In the current 4th Edition preview book, Races and Classes, we talked a bit about our approach to races. Let me add to that before you skim down to look at the elf. One of the changes that we decided on early for player character races was that we would only provide ability score bonuses. Penalties based on your choice of race are a thing of the past. We wanted to make sure each race had powers and abilities that set it apart and helped make it feel more like the race in question. We also worked on some size issues to make better sense of the various characters and their place in the world. Finally, we looked at the flavor and back story to make sure that each race had a unique role that didn't impinge on any of the other races in the game. OK, enough with the chit-chat. Let's unwrap your present! Elf Quick, wary archers who freely roam the forests and wilds. Racial Traits Average Height: 5' 7"-6' 0" Average Weight: 100-130 lb. Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom Size: Medium Speed: 7 squares Vision: Low-light Languages: Common, Elven Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception Elven Accuracy Elf Racial Power With an instant of focus, you take careful aim at your foe and strike with the legendary accuracy of the elves. Encounter Free Action Personal Effect: Reroll an attack roll. Use the second roll, even if it's lower. Elven Weapon Training: You gain proficiency with the longbow and the shortbow. Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift (even if you have a power that allows you to shift multiple squares). Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks. Elven Accuracy: You can use elven accuracy as an encounter power. Wild and free, elves guard their forested lands using stealth and deadly arrows from the trees. They build their homes in close harmony with the forest, so perfectly joined that travelers often fail to notice that they have entered an elven community until it is too late. Play an elf if you want to be quick, quiet, and wild; to lead your companions through the deep woods and pepper your enemies with arrows; to play a ranger, a rogue, or a cleric. Physical Qualities Elves are slender, athletic folk about as tall as humans. They have the same range of complexions as humans, tending more toward tan or brown hues. A typical elf's hair color is dark brown, autumn orange, mossy green, or deep gold. Elves' ears are long and pointed, and their eyes are vibrant blue, violet, or green. Elves have little body hair, but males often grow long sideburns. They favor a wild look to their hair, which is often a shaggy mass of braids. Elves mature at about the same rate as humans but show few effects of age past adulthood. The first sign of an elf's advancing age is typically a change in hair color -- sometimes graying but usually darkening or taking on more autumnal hues. Most elves live to be well over 200 years old and remain vigorous almost to the end. Playing an Elf Elves are a people of deeply felt but short-lived passions. They are easily moved to delighted laughter, blinding wrath, or mournful tears. They are inclined to impulsive behavior, and members of other races sometimes see elves as flighty or impetuous, but elves do not shirk responsibility or forget commitments. Thanks in part to their long life span, elves sometimes have difficulty taking certain matters as seriously as other races do, but when genuine threats arise, elves are fierce and reliable allies. Elves revere the natural world. Their connection to their surroundings enables them to perceive much. They never cut living trees, and when they create permanent communities, they do so by carefully growing or weaving arbors, tree houses, and catwalks from living branches. They prefer the primal power of the natural world to the arcane magic their eladrin cousins employ. Elves love to explore new forests and new lands, and it's not unusual for individuals or small bands to wander hundreds of miles from their homelands. Elves are loyal and merry friends. They love simple pleasures -- dancing, singing, footraces, and contests of balance and skill -- and rarely see a reason to tie themselves down to dull or disagreeable tasks. Despite how unpleasant war can be, a threat to their homes, families, or friends can make elves grimly serious and prompt them to take up arms. At the dawn of creation, elves and eladrin were a single race dwelling both in the Feywild and in the world, and passing freely between the two. When the drow rebelled against their kin, under the leadership of the god Lolth, the resulting battles tore the fey kingdoms asunder. Ties between the peoples of the Feywild and the world grew tenuous, and eventually the elves and eladrin grew into two distinct races. Elves are descended from those who lived primarily in the world, and they no longer dream of the Feywild. They love the forests and wilds of the world that they have made their home. Elf Characteristics: Agile, friendly, intuitive, joyful, perceptive, quick, tempestuous, wild. Male Names: Adran, Beiro, Carric, Erdan, Gennal, Heian, Lucan, Peren, Rollen, Soveliss, Therren, Varis. Female Names: Adrie, Birel, Chaedi, Dara, Ennia, Farall, Harrel, Iriann, Lia, Mialee, Shava, Thia, Valenae. Elf Adventurers Three sample elf adventurers are described below. Varis is an elf ranger and a devout worshiper of Melora, the god of the wilds. When a goblin army forced his people from their woodland village, the elves took refuge in the nearest human town, walled and guarded by soldiers. Varis now leads other elves and some human townsfolk in raids against the goblins. Although he maintains a cheerful disposition, he frequently stares into the distance, listening, expecting at any moment to hear signs of approaching foes. Lia is an elf rogue whose ancestral forest burned to the ground decades ago. Lia grew up on the wasteland's fringes in a large human city, unable to quite fit in. Her dreams called her to the forests, while her waking hours were spent in the dirtiest parts of civilization. She joined a group of adventurers after trying to cut a warlock's purse, and she fell in love with the wide world beyond the city. Heian is an elf cleric of Sehanine, the god of the moon. The elven settlement where he was born still thrives in a forest untouched by the darkness spreading through the world, but he left home years ago, in search of new horizons and adventures. His travels lately have brought rumors to his ears that danger might be brewing in the ancient forest, and he is torn between a desire to seek his own way in the world and a sense of duty to his homeland. Well, there you have it. The first unveiling of a full race entry from the 4th Edition Player's Handbook. Oh, what the heck. I'm feeling generous this morning. It must be the season. Here's a racial feat you can peek at, too. Elven Precision [Elf] Prerequisites: Elf, elven accuracy racial power, heroic tier Benefit: When you use the elven accuracy power, you gain a +2 bonus to the new attack roll. OK, I better stop here or I'll be tempted to show you the entire class chapter. Hmmm maybe next time? Anyway, have a great holiday season and remember to Keep playing! --Bill Slavicsek About the Author Bill Slavicsek is the R&D Director for Roleplaying Games, Miniatures, and Book Publishing at Wizards of the Coast. All of the game designers, developers, editors, book editors, and D&D Insider content managers working on Dungeons & Dragons, Star Wars, and the WotC Publishing Group report into Bill's R&D team. :D
Fingoldfin 12-21-07, 01:09 AM	I just got something new that I can put in my home game. Listen and spot will now be a skill called perception. I think I will be doing a lot of stuff like this. I really like many of the little changes, but I hate the big changes. Thanks for the new info Delta and happy holidays. :)
GreenKnight 12-21-07, 01:11 AM	In the current 4th Edition preview book, Races and Classes, we talked a bit about our approach to races. Let me add to that before you skim down to look at the elf. One of the changes that we decided on early for player character races was that we would only provide ability score bonuses. Penalties based on your choice of race are a thing of the past. Glad to hear this. No longer will races like Half-Orcs be gimped when they want to play a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Paladin, and likewise for a Dwarf when wanting to play a Paladin, Sorcerer, or Bard. Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom I like. Elves are gonna make kickass Druids. I just hope the Druid class is in the initial PHB. I'd hate to have to wait a year before a character like that can see some action. Incidentally, anyone want to bet that Eladrin will have +2 Dex, +2 Int? Speed: 7 squares 35 foot base movement for elves? Nice. Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception Good. Elven Accuracy Elf Racial Power With an instant of focus, you take careful aim at your foe and strike with the legendary accuracy of the elves. Encounter Free Action Personal Effect: Reroll an attack roll. Use the second roll, even if it's lower. It's alright. I'd prefer if it was limited to ranged weapons, but otherwise I'm fine with it. Elven Weapon Training: You gain proficiency with the longbow and the shortbow. Glad to see they dropped longswords. Swordmaking doesn't seem like something that Wood Elves would be doing a lot of. I expect it'll be Eladrin who'll have the Longsword Proficiency (Although personally, I hope they get a unique Elven sword instead of just the plain old Longsword). Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift (even if you have a power that allows you to shift multiple squares). Hmm. So what's a shift? Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks. Hmm. Only part I don't quite get. How do they grant nearby allies a Perception bonus? Elves mature at about the same rate as humans Now this I'm glad to see. I've never cared for fifty year old elf children. Glad to see that they made elves mature a bit more quickly. Most elves live to be well over 200 years old and remain vigorous almost to the end. 200 year lifespan? Ouch. Guess it's the Eladrin who're the more long-lived ones. Elf Characteristics: Agile, friendly, intuitive, joyful, perceptive, quick, tempestuous, wild. I wonder what this is about? Heian is an elf cleric of Sehanine, the god of the moon. Elven Precision [Elf] Prerequisites: Elf, elven accuracy racial power, heroic tier Benefit: When you use the elven accuracy power, you gain a +2 bonus to the new attack roll. Not a very good Feat, but from all reports, we'll be getting a whole lot more of them, so no problem.
18DELTA 12-21-07, 01:16 AM	Hmm. Only part I don't quite get. How do they grant nearby allies a Perception bonus? Checkout Star Wars Saga Edition. Some classes/feats/talents give those kinda bonuses.:D
Bluenose 12-21-07, 04:24 AM	I like. Elves are gonna make kickass Druids. I just hope the Druid class is in the initial PHB. I'd hate to have to wait a year before a character like that can see some action. I wouldn't hold your breath on this. PHB2 at the earliest is my guess. Incidentally, anyone want to bet that Eladrin will have +2 Dex, +2 Int? I'll take that bet, and raise you +2 Int, +2 Cha. :) Hmm. So what's a shift? The new name for a 5' step, is my guess. Hmm. Only part I don't quite get. How do they grant nearby allies a Perception bonus? "Look, Soveliss is staring at those bushes, somethings must be in there." Generally, I like. But then I've never had a problem with the rules changes, just some of the fluff.
GreenKnight 12-21-07, 06:10 AM	I wouldn't hold your breath on this. PHB2 at the earliest is my guess. Bear in mind that things have changed since they announced there were only going to be 8 classes in the PHB (Those 8 likely being Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin, Ranger, Warlock, and Warlord). For one, the page count of the PHB was increased since then. Most importantly, though, the Warlock, who was originally going to be a Controller, ended up becoming a Striker, instead. That leaves only the Wizard in the role of the Controller. I doubt they're gonna leave it that way, with only one class filling the role of a Controller. So if the Druid is a Controller, then it may very well be making its appearance in the initial PHB. I'll take that bet, and raise you +2 Int, +2 Cha. :) We'll see who comes out on top of this one, then. :D "Look, Soveliss is staring at those bushes, somethings must be in there." Good call. I really like the elf, though. From maturing at the same rate as a human (although being much more longlived), to having a faster base speed, a bonus to Dex AND Wis, etc. It sounds pretty damn sweet. I'm really looking forward to seeing this race in play, as well as seeing what the other races can do. Generally, I like. But then I've never had a problem with the rules changes, just some of the fluff. Same here. I'm really looking forward to seeing D&D 4E. I'm not to keen on the changes to the Realms, but the changes to the rules set? Loving it, so far. Hell, the only thing I don't like is the idea of epic characters being able to kill Greater Gods (Which goes beyond just the Realms). But that's only the barest smudge on what, to me, is looking like a pretty damn good package, so far.
Derren S. 12-21-07, 07:12 AM	*Waits till the first person complains about the short lifespan of elves and how it breaks FR.....* It does look quite nice even as I don't completely agree with what I heard from the skill system so far. And my money is on +2 Dex/+2 Int. Imo the +2 Physical / +2 Mental is no coincidence but a template which every race (except probably humans) will follow.
Stigger 12-21-07, 07:19 AM	Feh, for all the other things they're breaking about FR, the lifespan of elves seems pretty insignificant. But... on the whole I like the sound of the new elf.
Storm_Silverhand 12-21-07, 07:39 AM	Heya, *claps hands in glee* At last, tall elves are making it into the core rules! The only thing I don't really like is the much shortened lifespan, but as life span is not a significant consideration for most campaigns, bumping it back up by about 800 or so years won't break the game. This has confirmed something for me though, there are no Elves in either of my homebrews, they're all Eladrin. :)
Alediran 12-21-07, 09:12 AM	Yea, the lifespan isn't that bad, just change a 2 for an 8 and increase the maturity rate and we have the fluff the same as ever. Which with the new goodies the elf wins it's easier to justify the longer maturity range (you need a long time to become so good at shooting arrows :P)
GothicDan 12-21-07, 11:21 AM	Yeah, I would just change the lifespans altogether, anyway. The culture of a 1,000 year old race vs. that of a 200 year old one would be SIGNIFICANTLY different.
Fabius Maximus 12-21-07, 12:41 PM	Let's not forget that they are wood elves. The eladrin will probably the long lived ones.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-21-07, 01:12 PM	Same here. I'm really looking forward to seeing D&D 4E. I'm not to keen on the changes to the Realms, but the changes to the rules set? Loving it, so far. Agreed, I think all these new concepts are fine, although as I've said before I'd rather use them in a custom setting than in the FR setting.:)
johnkretzer 12-21-07, 01:52 PM	A minor complaint....a skilled called nature? Good what a lousy name. I agree with rolling spot and liosten into perception and probably Move silently and hide into stealth(I have been doing that for years) but Nature? What is wrong with Survival or Wilderness Lore. Also these aren't much like any of wild elves, wood elves or whatever elves they used to be much. Also I still think they should have just made the based elves high elves...you know the race that didn't specialize in magic or nature but had a culture that didn't pifoen hole them. Sure call the gold elves(or grey elves) Eldaring...and call the Wild elves types Grugach. I dislike haveing a ton abilities that grants fellow party members bonus as a way to encourage 'teamwork'. I start to think I am going have to do alot of work to make 4th edition 'D&D' to be like D&D.
Green Elven Vampire 12-21-07, 01:56 PM	So now all the elves in our game are different as well? Ohh sorry mate, you've been an Eladrin for the past 300 years, oops! 4ED sucks! Period!!
Derren S. 12-21-07, 02:43 PM	Looks like you lost Bluenose. From the new Elf/Eladrin/Drow article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221 Eladrin share the grace and agility of their elf cousins but place more value on the developed intellect than on intuition and emotion. Sounds like +2 Dex +2 Int The Eladrin description fits the Sun Elves much better than the current elven lore. Moon Elves are not so clear cut. Could be either Eladrin or Elves but someone with more FR elf knowledge will know better than me. And Drow are Drow. Nuff said.
Another Gnome 12-21-07, 04:16 PM	The Eladrin description fits the Sun Elves much better than the current elven lore. Moon Elves are not so clear cut. Could be either Eladrin or Elves but someone with more FR elf knowledge will know better than me. Perfect excuse to dust off this quote... :D Well, to be clear, we'd say something like this: "Eladrins in Faerun come in three kindreds: sun elves (or gold elves, or Ar-tel'quessir), moon elves (or silver elves, or Teu-tel'quessir), and star elves (or mithral elves, or ???-tel'quessir)." Differences between them are just cosmetic, although they might be based in different regions and have slightly different starting background options.
GreenKnight 12-21-07, 04:20 PM	Looks like you lost Bluenose. From the new Elf/Eladrin/Drow article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221 Sounds like +2 Dex +2 Int The Eladrin description fits the Sun Elves much better than the current elven lore. Moon Elves are not so clear cut. Could be either Eladrin or Elves but someone with more FR elf knowledge will know better than me. And Drow are Drow. Nuff said. Ah ha! I win! :D Anyway, from the article, this is what it looks like. Elves: +2 Dex, +2 Wis Eladrin: +2 Dex, +2 Int Drow: +2 Dex, +2 Cha
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 08:33 PM	-Here's what I had to say in another thread: Are you sure about this? Because they posted THIS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221) article last night, where they say the following. -That's Core, not the Forgotten Realms. Rich Baker has stated, multiple times, that many of the Demihuman deities were going to be "retconned" to be Human deities "in disguise", and he specifically mentioned Sehanine Moonbow. However, another way of looking at that would be that while we know the truth, the individuals on Faerūn do not, with the exception of a limited few- the "usual bunch". I think Bill Slaviscek just ruined my Christmas. Quote: Elves are a people of deeply felt but short-lived passions. They are easily moved to delighted laughter, blinding wrath, or mournful tears. They are inclined to impulsive behavior, and members of other races sometimes see elves as flighty or impetuous, but elves do not shirk responsibility or forget commitments. Thanks in part to their long life span, elves sometimes have difficulty taking certain matters as seriously as other races do, but when genuine threats arise, elves are fierce and reliable allies. -Don't forget: At the dawn of creation, elves and eladrin were a single race dwelling both in the Feywild and in the world, and passing freely between the two. -Last time I checked, Eladrin were a form of Celestial...:rolleyes: Elves mature at about the same rate as humans but show few effects of age past adulthood -Um, no. Just no. :rolleyes: Play an elf if you want to play a ranger, a rogue, or a cleric. -Kinda funny that wizard isn't included on this list. Yeah...:rolleyes: -Well, the only thing I can say is that since this is Core, it really can't be applied to the Forgotten Realms, like above. Just like Core Elves today don't apply to the Forgotten Realms.
MerrikCale 12-21-07, 11:24 PM	--Last time I checked, Eladrin were a form of Celestial...:rolleyes: perhaps that has changed
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 11:25 PM	perhaps that has changed -Well, obviously. Makes you wonder what happened to all of the Celestial Eladrin. Maybe they were included in the genetic goo that was given to the Halflings that made 'em taller, and Dwarven women more womanly.
MerrikCale 12-21-07, 11:27 PM	-Well, obviously. Makes you wonder what happened to all of the Celestial Eladrin. Maybe they were included in the genetic goo that was given to the Halflings that made 'em taller, and Dwarven women more womanly. not only are halflings taller but they've thrown them into the swamps
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 11:29 PM	-The canabal, desert Halflings from Athas probably wouldn't like that. Did you open your present yet?
MerrikCale 12-21-07, 11:31 PM	- Did you open your present yet? huh?
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 11:37 PM	huh? -In another thread, you complained about not getting any love, so I left you a present to open. Go look.
MerrikCale 12-21-07, 11:43 PM	nice
MarkusTay63 12-21-07, 11:51 PM	-Well, obviously. Makes you wonder what happened to all of the Celestial Eladrin.In 4e designer parlance - "The Gold Elves KILLED the Eladrin and took their stuff." :P
Green Elven Vampire 12-22-07, 12:14 AM	Wooo Hooo!!! I just got D20 Faeries and City of Splendors for $30.00 online! 4ED blows chunks of retarded monkey drool. 3.5ED is dirt cheap now baby!
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 01:25 AM	In 4e designer parlance - "The Gold Elves KILLED the Eladrin and took their stuff." :P -Yes, yes, because Sun Elves are so deviously evil. I bet if they willed themselves to grow facial hair (which, I think, is dumb. They don't have hair folicles on the face, period), they'd grow handlebar moustaches that they could twist and twirl menacingly.
AskaniPsion 12-22-07, 01:47 AM	Yeah but Sehanine is now Lolth's SISTER???!! :confused:
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:12 AM	Yeah but Sehanine is now Lolth's SISTER???!! :confused: -Sure, why not. Destiny and Divination are somewhat related.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 02:25 AM	-Last time I checked, Eladrin were a form of Celestial...:rolleyes: They've tied elves and eladrin together into one race. Noble Eladrin The lords and ladies that rule the eladrin are powerful fey who embody the character of the race. Their magic is tied to seasons and emotions. A ghaele might lash out with a blast of wintry cold, while a coure sows strife among her enemies. They are enigmatic and aloof and can be very capricious, especially when mortals venture into their domains. Sounds like Bralani, Ghaele, Tulani, and others are more powerful Eladrin. So they still exist, but they're just more closely related to standard D&D elves.
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 02:39 AM	Wooo Hooo!!! I just got D20 Faeries and City of Splendors for $30.00 online! 4ED blows chunks of retarded monkey drool. 3.5ED is dirt cheap now baby! reported
ORC_Chaos 12-22-07, 02:50 AM	I've brought this thread to the attention of the Community Management team.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 03:00 AM	They've tied elves and eladrin together into one race. Sounds like Bralani, Ghaele, Tulani, and others are more powerful Eladrin. So they still exist, but they're just more closely related to standard D&D elves. -I know. The point was, Eladrin and Elves have never been related in any way, except for the fact that both are Chaotic, often Good, and that many members of the Seldarine used their services in Arvandor. Suddenly, "BAMF', they are. It's Silly.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 03:11 AM	I like it, myself. You've got the more powerful Eladrin nobility, who seem to be more then just your average Eladrin bear, the Eladrin, the Drow, and finally the Elves occupying the lowest point on the totem pole.
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 03:21 AM	-I know. The point was, Eladrin and Elves have never been related in any way, except for the fact that both are Chaotic, often Good, and that many members of the Seldarine used their services in Arvandor. Suddenly, "BAMF', they are. It's Silly. The problem you seems to have is to understand it's two distinct beasts; to male a comparaison.. It's like the elves of Lodoss War VS the (common) elves of Harry Potter. The same word is not used for the same things, albeit they draw (distantly) on a same base idea. The Eladrin player race of PoL is not the Outsiders group. Variations.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 03:25 AM	The problem you seems to have is to understand it's two distinct beasts; to male a comparaison.. It's like the elves of Lodoss War VS the (common) elves of Harry Potter. The same word is not used for the same things, albeit they draw (distantly) on a same base idea. The Eladrin player race of PoL is not the Outsiders group. Variations. -There is no continuity between the Elves of Lodoss War and the Elves of Harry Potter. There is continuity between Elves and Eladrin, however. -Is it that hard to think of a word that avoids the confusion, and is more original? Isn't that what many of the WotC people are paid to do? On a completely side note, man, that would be an awesome job. Basically, you just do what we all do, but get paid for it...
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 03:31 AM	ACtually, it seems hard indeed. There is no actual continuity. The Pol default small world is a distinct world than the FR ones. Different 'settings'. And you know how distinct D&D worlds can be. They just reinterpreted the concept. The WOTC workers don't do all they want - they have to obey the bosses's - and also the base's - wishes. The industry is very ingrate between the demanding bosses and fandom; it's not a job i would do, at all.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 03:37 AM	ACtually, it seems hard indeed. There is no actual continuity. The Pol default small world is a distinct world than the FR ones. Different 'settings'. And you know how distinct D&D worlds can be. They just reinterpreted the concept. -We know that the changes to Elves and Eladrin will be implemented in the Realms.
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 03:40 AM	-We know that the changes to Elves and Eladrin will be implemented in the Realms. "if" - because the books are not printed yet. With reflavoring and perhaps mechanical change (like in DL, where the elves have also Darkvision). It won't be the eladrins of PoL, for sure. Setting fluff override core fluff.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 04:05 AM	"if" - because the books are not printed yet. With reflavoring and perhaps mechanical change (like in DL, where the elves have also Darkvision). It won't be the eladrins of PoL, for sure. Setting fluff override core fluff. -Rich Baker specifically said that at least Sun Elves would be given the stats of Eladrin, and would be Eladrin (rules-wise), but still be Sun Elves/Gold Elves/Ar'Tel'Quessir (lore-wise).
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 04:26 AM	Well since they are changing the alignment system to good, evil, and unaligned(read license to be evil) they had to get rid and mashed together the celestrial races since they is now no difference between chaotic celestials and lawful celestials. So that is why Eldarins don't exisat as outsiders anymore. I am not saying this with any hint of judgement(will except a little on the 'new alignment system'). Just guessing at their thought process of the designers.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 04:31 AM	Well since they are changing the alignment system to good, evil, and unaligned Do you have anything to back this up? Alignment What changes are in store for alignment? "In the end, there's still alignment. There will be some changes though. There'll be some tweaks... Even non-gamers know what a 12th level lawful good paladin is." Will alignment be a factor in the new edition? "It’s not going to be what it is now. Alignment is part of the story, part of the character. It is a useful shorthand, but too many books and too many players mistake it for limitation. We want to treat alignment as something bigger than that. We won’t get rid of it, but we don’t want it to be a replacement for character and personality." (source). One major change to this system in 4E is the fact characters can choose to be “unaligned,” having no significant impulses towards good or evil. Characters can still choose to be good or evil (law and chaos are not mentioned), but most characters and monsters will be unaligned. Unsurprisingly, most spells and powers that revolve around alignment are now gone. The bolded part is the only thing I can find that implies what you suggest, but that doesn't mean that Lawful and Chaos have been removed. Just that they weren't mentioned. The discussion was about Unaligned, so the book mentions good and evil in passing. That doesn't mean that Law and Chaos have been removed. Here's another quote in relation to Paladins. "Yes, the question was considered, but ultimately it boils down to this: We want one class in the job of "holy warrior", not nine...Currently the text in the Player's Handbook says something to this effect: Paladins are almost always lawful or good. Chaotic or evil paladins do exist in the world, but they're almost never heroes; go see the DM if you want to play one." It wouldn't say that if Lawful and Chaotic were gone.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 04:31 AM	-No lawful? No chaotic? Oh-kay. -Neutral was pretty much 'unaliagned', so there's no big difference there.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 04:42 AM	-No lawful? No chaotic? Oh-kay. Read my post above. They're not gone. -Neutral was pretty much 'unaliagned', so there's no big difference there. Yeah, only difference is that it doesn't come with the strings that Neutral came attached with. I've known more then a few players who thought that Neutral could ONLY mean that they had to strive to keep a perfect balance (One player, for instance, refused to fight if the PC's looked to have the advantage in a fight). It can mean that, but it doesn't just mean that. Bringing in Unaligned cuts those strings.
Bluenose 12-22-07, 09:04 AM	Ah ha! I win! :D Anyway, from the article, this is what it looks like. Elves: +2 Dex, +2 Wis Eladrin: +2 Dex, +2 Int Drow: +2 Dex, +2 Cha They could still be Int and Cha... but I suspect that I'm wrong. :( I would commit sepukku in shame, but that's a different game.:D On 'unaligned', I think it might be a way to move away from the druid concept of neutrality, which was treated as a desire for balance between the alignments. Someone who's unaligned probably doesn't care whether there's a balance, so long as things aren't going too badly for them personally and the people they care about. If anything they're more likely to help fight against evil, which is perhaps more likely to interfere with their lives, than good, which probably leaves them alone most of the time. I'd prefer a different name for the 'new Eladrin' myself. Though looking at the elf racial article, I think they are less like the elves from 3.x and earlier editions than the name suggests. It's possible they need renaming, and the Eladrin should be what used to be normal elves. FR elves have always been different from core ones anyway.
Derren S. 12-22-07, 09:33 AM	I got the impression that "unaligned" is the official "chaotic psycho" alignment for players which play CN as CE and want to be able to do everything they want.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 10:21 AM	I got the impression that "unaligned" is the official "chaotic psycho" alignment for players which play CN as CE and want to be able to do everything they want. Then I guess most Commoners are psychotics, as Unaligned is supposed to apply to most common folk.
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 12:12 PM	Do you have anything to back this up? The bolded part is the only thing I can find that implies what you suggest, but that doesn't mean that Lawful and Chaos have been removed. Just that they weren't mentioned. The discussion was about Unaligned, so the book mentions good and evil in passing. That doesn't mean that Law and Chaos have been removed. Here's another quote in relation to Paladins. It wouldn't say that if Lawful and Chaotic were gone. The fact it wasn't mentioned made think so...but you are right I guess we will just how have to wait and see.
Derren S. 12-22-07, 12:24 PM	Then I guess most Commoners are psychotics, as Unaligned is supposed to apply to most common folk. Well when you look a the creation myth of elves they do apparently represent "unaligned" unlike the other races which are good or evil. And they don't really behave like commoners in the story.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:16 PM	I got the impression that "unaligned" is the official "chaotic psycho" alignment for players which play CN as CE and want to be able to do everything they want. -I'm sure that's not exactly how WotC is intending it, but I'm sure that by the time 5e rolls around, there is going to have been plenty of those.
Green Elven Vampire 12-22-07, 03:49 PM	reported Why are you attacking me? You have been flaming me for the past few days just cause you don't like the fact that I'm against 4ED. Saying I'm spamming and trolling and calling my thread "Idle speculation" when Rich Baker himself has mentioned several times the changes to Demi-Human deities in 4ED. There is no "Idle speculation" when you get the quote from the man himself. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to report you to the Moderators, cause I can just choose to put you on my ignore list. You on the other hand have been reporting me like wildfire in several different threads over my opinions and views. I have had email communication with Moderators who suggest I just place you on Ignore because your unwarranted Reporting and your replies to me are on the border of, if not down right Flaming. I can't help that you find vomiting monkey drool offensive, but I posted this here so everyone can see my public suggestion that you calm down and lay off the Flaming. In loving respect, GEV
Rauric 12-22-07, 06:40 PM	He is not flaming you, that would mean he would have to start name calling or something. He reported you most likely because he thought you were doing something agaisnt the COC. Big difference.
Green Elven Vampire 12-22-07, 07:05 PM	He is not flaming you, that would mean he would have to start name calling or something. He reported you most likely because he thought you were doing something agaisnt the COC. Big difference. Ohh really? So you know and have read all his posts to me in the past week? I don't think so Rauric. You're sooooo sure he's not flaming me? You act like you know all his posts to me in every forum, in every thread. I'm beginning to think you and Ubber are really the same person. Doesn't matter as I've already communicated with Moderators about the situation.
Rauric 12-22-07, 07:44 PM	Ok. I am not moderating all of your guys posts. I just notice that you do post the same negative thing over and over and it can be viewed as spamming. I am not fond of spamming but I wouldn't report anyone on it personally. I do think it is the responsibility of posters to watch their behavior on the boards. If went over the top and was reported I would look at my posts and try and see if I really deserved it. Name calling is a bigger problem than spamming though. Let's try and be more civil if possible. I do like your Specialty Priests PRCs though btw. That creative, positive thinking is always good times.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:56 AM	He is not flaming you, that would mean he would have to start name calling or something. -Harassment, which GEV seems to be getting at, at least to me, is also against the CoC, and could also be considered flaming. Flaming essentially is just attacking someone, and I think harassment is a form of attack- so long as it is not warranted, anyway.
The Ubbergeek 12-23-07, 01:44 AM	GE, you flammes and harass the pro-4thers, and flammes the company and the workers. Hence why I reported. Also, getting a bit parano?
GothicDan 12-23-07, 11:00 AM	I'm still wondering why they needed to use the name Eladrin - which some of us are very familiar with, and has in-game lore connected to the term - rather than simply keep the subraces of Elves, since that's what they're doing, mechanically speaking.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 11:22 AM	I'm still wondering why they needed to use the name Eladrin - which some of us are very familiar with, and has in-game lore connected to the term - rather than simply keep the subraces of Elves, since that's what they're doing, mechanically speaking. -Agreed. When do I not agree with Dan? :)
GothicDan 12-23-07, 11:23 AM	Religion. Well, if we were in FR, we'd be the same religion, probably, or at least worship the same gods, but in real life? Atheist with agnostic potential, here.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 11:35 AM	-Meh, that's not that big of a deal. I'm not overtly religious. I believe in what I believe in, but that doesn't override my sense of logic- Evolution is fact, that there is no intelligent life anywhere else in the universe defies logic, the Bible was not written by G-d, etc.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 11:39 AM	Well, you'd be allowed into my space station city state of Neo-Athens: Hopefully To Last Longer than the First, Damn those Pesky Spartans, even though you have a religion.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 11:45 AM	-I'll take that as a compliment. -Will it look like Asteroid M much?
GothicDan 12-23-07, 11:49 AM	Yes, but with better decorating. PS: I just bought and read Warsong! Mmm, Phoenix.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:01 PM	Yes, but with better decorating. -Well, with a team consisting of Magneto, Toad, Quicksilver, Mastermind, and the Scarlet Witch, of course it's going to look like crap. -And, of course, the Acolytes from Avalon (Asteroid M, part II) weren't much better. Of them, only Exodus was cool. The threeway battle between him, X-Man and Cable was awesome. Some was the battle between him and Holocaust.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:05 PM	Mmm, X-man. Hotness AND insane power.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:11 PM	-Recently, Dark Beast alluded to the possibility of bringing him back from the dead...
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:13 PM	Where?! I want to buy the Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire next, since I think there's more Vulcan in it.
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:16 PM	I will just always use green, moon and sun elves even if it states otherwise.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:19 PM	I will use Sun Elves. .... Only.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:21 PM	Where?! -One of the issues of either Uncanny X-Men, or X-Men, in the Endangered Species sidestory. I want to buy the Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire next, since I think there's more Vulcan in it. -Yes, it does, indeed, have more Vulcan in it. The story centers around him, so...;) -You'd like it, but not like it at the same time. It does suffer from a few plot hiccups, and a few "what!?" moments. But, what story- especially comic books- doesn't suffer from that? -That plotline even spawned a mini-series. I'm not going to mention the title, as it gives away a major point of the Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire storyline. -Both have Rachel in a prominent role, so I'm good. :)
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:24 PM	Endangered Species. Will remember. And Rise and Fall is definitely on my list of things to buy with Borders/Barnes and Nobles gift cards, now.
MerrikCale 12-23-07, 12:24 PM	I miss Chris Claremont. The X-Men have really hit the skids
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:27 PM	Shut up! Vulcan rocks!
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 12:30 PM	I'm still wondering why they needed to use the name Eladrin - which some of us are very familiar with, and has in-game lore connected to the term - rather than simply keep the subraces of Elves, since that's what they're doing, mechanically speaking. It's a ludicrous retcon indeed.
MerrikCale 12-23-07, 12:31 PM	Shut up! Vulcan rocks! Nah. Mr Sinister rocks
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:31 PM	X-men can be fixed. If they only made a minimum of 2 x-books ever. That's it, 2. All the multitude of X has diluted the Muntant schtick since the early 90's. Chris was good but hie left too many plot hooks dangling at one point.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:32 PM	Mr. Sinister is also cool. Mmm, X-man.
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:34 PM	I also believe that FR will not call elves Elardin, some elves will have the stats but be considered Sun/Moon elves. Others will be considered statted as elves. No serious retcon will be invovled I figure.
MerrikCale 12-23-07, 12:36 PM	X-men can be fixed. If they only made a minimum of 2 x-books ever. That's it, 2. All the multitude of X has diluted the Muntant schtick since the early 90's. Chris was good but hie left too many plot hooks dangling at one point. Perhaps. But I could always count on a good story with him
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:39 PM	Endsong = awesome. Love it. Warsong wasn't as good, but good nonetheless. That being said, I think that Rich already said that the Suns and Moons would continue to be called Elves. Though I see this causing no end of confusion for new players.
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:41 PM	Sinister is cool because he can be used as a realistic villain who is about the evolution of his people, not World Domination, mwahahaha! If used properly that is. Magneto should have been used this way better as well. I am ticked they took away Genosha. That was a great concept. Prof X's twin killing them all was lame. I wanted to see X-man be used as a traditional superhero. He had the look and cool powers to be excepted by the masses and could have fit on the Avengers.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:42 PM	But the Avengers folk don't seem to like the X-men ones much.
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:43 PM	Endsong = awesome. Love it. Warsong wasn't as good, but good nonetheless. That being said, I think that Rich already said that the Suns and Moons would continue to be called Elves. Though I see this causing no end of confusion for new players. Nah, new players will be fine with it. Hopefully a little sidebar that wil explain it all and it will be fine.
MerrikCale 12-23-07, 12:43 PM	But the Avengers folk don't seem to like the X-men ones much. I love the Avengers
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:44 PM	Merrik, you're not a person, you don't count.
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:44 PM	But the Avengers folk don't seem to like the X-men ones much. Not true. Beast was an Avenger and a very prominent one. In the 80's Beast was considered an Avenger 1st and X-dude second IMO.
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:45 PM	Storm could be an Avenger. She atteactive and her powers are useful and could be use to avert natural disasters. Perfect Avenger candidate. Same with Colosus.
Derren S. 12-23-07, 12:46 PM	rather than simply keep the subraces of Elves, since that's what they're doing, mechanically speaking. Probably because subraces are hated by many and WotC tries to remove them with 4E. No more wizard elves, babarian elves, fighter elves, sorcerer elves but eladrin, elves and drow each with several cultures within the race.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:47 PM	Storm was always one of my favorites, along with Jean Grey, Cyclops, and Prof. X. I always hated Wolverine. "I'M SO ANGRY!"
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:52 PM	Wolvie done by Byrne and Chris was the best. The *** smaurai thing was a little off. The Origin comic that is put out now is pretty decent. Wolvie is a solo guy. He kills, X-men really don't. Well, most of the time.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:53 PM	Storm could be an Avenger. She atteactive and her powers are useful and could be use to avert natural disasters. Perfect Avenger candidate. Same with Colosus. -Storm's one of the Fantastic Four, believe it or not, last time I checked. No more wizard elves, babarian elves, fighter elves, sorcerer elves... -You should know from arguing so much, that it's not at all like that.
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 12:57 PM	I also believe that FR will not call elves Elardin, some elves will have the stats but be considered Sun/Moon elves. Others will be considered statted as elves. No serious retcon will be invovled I figure. Yeah, Rich Baker said as much. My guess is that the race entries in the upcoming FRCS will probably be basically the same as they are now, except that they'll say something like this. Racial Abilities: Sun elves have all the Eladrin racial traits listed on page X of the Player's Handbook. In short... Sun Elves = Use the rules for Eladrin. Moon Elves = Use the rules for Eladrin. Wild Elves = Use the rules for Elves. Wood Elves = Use the rules for Elves. Drow = Drow, of course.
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 12:58 PM	Where's Msatran when you need him? lol. Elves as Eladrin completely destroys 30,000 years of elven history. And now I assume Eladrins are going to be something else as well. "Hey for the past 300 years your Moon elf Cleric of Sehanine has really been a Eladrin worshiping a human goddess, and all those celestials you summoned over the years to defend the People weren't really Eladrins, because you're an Eladrin. Soooo, have a nice day!" :rolleyes:
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:58 PM	Right, but she could have always fit into the Avengers also I believe. There are several "clean cut looking " muties that would fit in. Oddly that the blue beast was so loved as an Avenger with his odd look. Guess he was more cuddley than Nightcrawler. Side note, I love NIghtcrawler. I dislike the new superreligious version of him though. When he led Excalibur that was the best version of Kurt ever. Lots of soul, humanity and swashbuckling self assuredness.
Rauric 12-23-07, 01:01 PM	The Eladrin/Elf situation will just be used for stats. Eladrins will techniquely be Sun/Moon elves and Elves will be Green and other versions I believe. Not sure 100% though till the book is released.
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 01:01 PM	Elves as Eladrin completely destroys 30,000 years of elven history. No it doesn't, as they'll still refer to themselves as Sun Elves, Moon Elves, etc. They probably called themselves Eladrin at some point in the distant past, but does it really matter if they stopped referring to themselves as Eladrin 40,000 years ago? That doesn't change their history in the slightest, much less destroy it.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:01 PM	I was never a big fan of Nightcrawler, either. Or Gambit.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:02 PM	No it doesn't, as they'll still refer to themselves as Sun Elves, Moon Elves, etc. They probably called themselves Eladrin at some point in the distant past, but does it really matter if they stopped referring to themselves as Eladrin 40,000 years ago? That doesn't change their history in the slightest, much less destroy it. The question is, why did they have to be called Eladrin at all, when Eladrin were already well established as not-Elves? I, for one, love Elves and Eladrin both, and hated when people tried to convolute the two into being basically the "same thing," so this change is particularly annoying to me. One of my favorite, long-time online RPs was actually dealing with an Eladrin who was trying to find a way to become an Elven High Mage, and he couldn't because he wasn't a true Elf, and so on. So this sort of undermines a lot of my personal play, at least.
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 01:06 PM	But why even make a difference between the races? They don't need it by any means. And GK... how could've elves called themselves Eladrin when Eladrins are celestials?? It makes no sense.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:07 PM	Where's Msatran when you need him? lol. Elves as Eladrin completely destroys 30,000 years of elven history. And now I assume Eladrins are going to be something else as well. "Hey for the past 300 years your Moon elf Cleric of Sehanine has really been a Eladrin worshiping a human goddess, and all those celestials you summoned over the years to defend the People weren't really Eladrins, because you're an Eladrin. Soooo, have a nice day!" :rolleyes: -Eh, yes and no. The use of 'Eladrin' is purely for stats reasons. In the Realms, they are still Sun/Moon/Star Elves. That isn't going to change. The fact that they suddenly have new powers/abilities/stats whatever is a point of contention, though. -As for the religion situation, as we are speculating now, that definitley screws things up a bit, on both sides- from the Human deity point of view, and the Elven deity point of view.
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 01:07 PM	The question is, why did they have to be called Eladrin at all, when Eladrin were already well established as not-Elves? Precisely my point GD!!
Rauric 12-23-07, 01:09 PM	Not sure why they changed the Eladrin thing. Most gamers I know, even old school ones never really used the cellestial version of them ever. Maybe a few Plansecapers did that I know, but I really don't think so. Maybe the celesial versions will be the same or get a slightly different name. If it breaks your game don't use the name change and keep the celletial version and just make the two types of elves as elves but with different stats. Problem solved right? ;)
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:11 PM	It really gets tiresome hearing people try to apologize for 4E by telling people to have to ignore things/change things/etc. I don't understand that mindset.
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 01:14 PM	And GK... how could've elves called themselves Eladrin when Eladrins are celestials?? It makes no sense. They're still pretty much the same. They're immensely powerful beings who live in an otherworldly realm. Does it really matter if they're not listed under the header of "Outsider" in the Monster Manual? The only difference now is that they're related to elves. And considering that Eladrin have always been really tough elves, is it really such a big deal? I, for one, love Elves and Eladrin both, and hated when people tried to convolute the two into being basically the "same thing," so this change is particularly annoying to me. Guess you're gonna hate this post ;), as they always seemed to be the same thing, to me. Which is why I like this change. I much prefer the idea of Elves, Eladrin, and Drow being on the bottom rung of the greater Eladrin totem pole, rather then having Elves on the one hand, and then super-powered Outsider Elves on the other hand.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:14 PM	Most gamers I know, even old school ones never really used the cellestial version of them ever. -Hey, hey, speak for yourself, there! In my homebrew setting, in the past, Eldarin have had a prominent role, as they were instrumental in aiding a particular Elven empire in defeating another Elven empire that had come under the fell influence of a deity-like entity. -And, hell, an Eladrin was even featured in the Last Mythal Trilogy. If it breaks your game don't use the name change and keep the celletial version and just make the two types of elves as elves but with different stats. Problem solved right? ;) -Of course, but the point is...We're wondering what the point was! :) Does it really matter if they're not listed under the header of "Outsider" in the Monster Manual? The only difference now is that they're related to elves. And considering that Eladrin have always been really tough elves, is is really such a big deal? -Perceptions aside, Eladrin and Elves were never related, though. Similar, yes. Related? No.
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 01:17 PM	Not sure why they changed the Eladrin thing. Most gamers I know, even old school ones never really used the cellestial version of them ever. Maybe a few Plansecapers did that I know, but I really don't think so. Maybe the celesial versions will be the same or get a slightly different name. If it breaks your game don't use the name change and keep the celletial version and just make the two types of elves as elves but with different stats. Problem solved right? ;) But don't you see, if they keep the same stats as Eladrin then the Eladrins have nothing special to separate them from mortal elves. It's a poorly thought out change. A ridiculous retcon.
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 01:18 PM	It really gets tiresome hearing people try to apologize for 4E by telling people to have to ignore things/change things/etc. I don't understand that mindset. I'm with you on that GD.
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 01:22 PM	They're still pretty much the same. They're immensely powerful beings who live in an otherworldly realm. Does it really matter if they're not listed under the header of "Outsider" in the Monster Manual? The only difference now is that they're related to elves. And considering that Eladrin have always been really tough elves, is it really such a big deal? Guess you're gonna hate this post ;), as they always seemed to be the same thing, to me. Which is why I like this change. I much prefer the idea of Elves, Eladrin, and Drow being on the bottom rung of the greater Eladrin totem pole, rather then having Elves on the one hand, and then super-powered Outsider Elves on the other hand. Yeah, ummm... Elves and Eladrin were never related. One is mortal and the other is celestial. One has celestial powers and the other has mortal, racial limits.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:22 PM	Guess you're gonna hate this post , as they always seemed to be the same thing, to me. Which is why I like this change. I much prefer the idea of Elves, Eladrin, and Drow being on the bottom rung of the greater Eladrin totem pole, rather then having Elves on the one hand, and then super-powered Outsider Elves on the other hand. So, you understand why some of us ARE upset, and why it IS a big deal to some of us. Just because YOU don't think it's a big deal (general 'you') doesn't mean it's for the best, or acceptable to everyone. It IS A BIG DEAL to us. :)
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 01:27 PM	Yeah, ummm... Elves and Eladrin were never related. One is mortal and the other is celestial. One has celestial powers and the other has mortal, racial limits. Yes, but why can't they be related? You've already got various degrees of powers among Eladrin, with Tulani vastly more powerful than Coures. Is it really world shattering to take elves and make them another couple of rungs on the totem pole?
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 01:31 PM	So, you understand why some of us ARE upset, and why it IS a big deal to some of us. Just because YOU don't think it's a big deal (general 'you') doesn't mean it's for the best, or acceptable to everyone. It IS A BIG DEAL to us. :) Not really, no. I think it's a whole lot of hubbubaloo over something pretty insignificant. :P It really gets tiresome hearing people try to apologize for 4E by telling people to have to ignore things/change things/etc. I don't understand that mindset. It's a message board. Get used to it. :P I'm with you on that GD. I don't mean to sound like I'm flaming you, GEV, but don't you think you're being a bit hypocritical, here? Look at post 95. Now how many times have you made that post practically verbatim? Seriously, if we're talking tiresome, I'm getting whiplash from the sense of deja vu I get from reading your posts. Is it really necessary to make almost the exact same argument repeatedly?
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:31 PM	Trying to marginalize others' opinions isn't likely to actually win anyone over, you know. ;) I think almost every decision WotC has made has been a bunch of hullabaloo about something insignificant. And.. As to getting used to it? One could say the same about your response to our dislike of the term Eladrin. We don't like it - "get used to it." Not very conducive to actually opening lines of communication, is it? There's so much bloody hypocrisy it's leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
Derren S. 12-23-07, 01:33 PM	-You should know from arguing so much, that it's not at all like that. So? Are you disputing that most elven subraces had a stat array which was nearly perfect for one or two classes (which was likely their favored class anyway)? Elves and Dwarfs having so much subraces never made any sense. They were only invented to sell more splatbooks to elf/dwarf lovers who buy books when a elf/dwarf race is statted in there. All those subraces should be different cultures of the same race with the same physical and mental characteristic than anyone else, just with a different way of living. And thankfully 4E seems to make this right. No more dozends of subraces but only a few races with lots of different cultures.
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 01:33 PM	Hey, you don't understand my mindset, and I don't understand yours. That makes us even. :P
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:34 PM	Yes, but why can't they be related? -It's not that they can't be related, but there is no need for them being reated. Or, support to show that there is a need.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:36 PM	I guess that's our side: necessity. The other side is the "Why not?" side. I hate asking "Why not?"
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 01:37 PM	-It's not that they can't be related, but there is no need for them being reated. Or, support to show that there is a need. Let's turn that around. Is there any real need for them to not be related? As for being related, I think it brings up several advantages, as it makes elves more standout from most other races. Combining the two into one elevates elves as a whole, giving them the otherworldly feel that (IMO, of course) I feel they should possess. Combining them with the Eladrin makes them more fantastical overall.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:37 PM	Elves and Dwarfs having so much subraces never made any sense. They were only invented to sell more splatbooks to elf/dwarf lovers who buy books when a elf/dwarf race is statted in there. You do realize a lot of these stat modifiers were made in previous editions, before these 'splatbooks' ever came out, right? Elves and Dwarves had these stat modifiers for decades.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:39 PM	Let's turn that around. Is there any real need for them to not be related? As for being related, I think it brings up several advantages, as it makes elves more standout from most other races. Combining the two into one elevates elves as a whole, giving them the otherworldly feel that (IMO, of course) I feel they should possess. Combining them with the Eladrin makes them more fantastical overall. There is a need: to be continuous with older lore. Elves aren't more standalone - they're smashed together with Eladrin. It doesn't elevate the Elves - it CHANGES the Elves. Elves were never stated in lore to have any sort of Celestial heritage. Fantastical? What, immortal Elves with natural abilities of communion and High Magic wasn't fantastical enough before?
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:41 PM	So? Are you disputing that most elven subraces had a stat array which was nearly perfect for one or two classes (which was likely their favored class anyway)? -Yes, yes I am. -Let's just take Sun Elves, for instance. They have a history of being Clerics, Fighters, and Wizards. Prestige classes run the gamut, from Bladesingers to Elven High Magi, to Champions of Corellon Larethian, and everything in-between. -Moon Elves have an even more storied history. Among them are Bards, Clerics, Fighters, Rogues, Wizards. Again, Prestige Classes run the entire gamut. -Wood Elves? Barbarians, Druids, Fighters, Rogues, Wizards... -Avariel, Clerics, Fighters, Wizards... -Blah, blah, blah. Elves and Dwarfs having so much subraces never made any sense. -Sure they do. The fact that you don't like them doesn't mean that they don't make sense. They were only invented to sell more splatbooks to elf/dwarf lovers who buy books when a elf/dwarf race is statted in there. -It sure would be awesome if you had that memo by that dastardly WotC to back that up. All those subraces should be different cultures of the same race with the same physical and mental characteristic than anyone else, just with a different way of living. And thankfully 4E seems to make this right. No more dozends of subraces but only a few races with lots of different cultures. -Moon Elves =/= Sun Elves =/= Wood Elves =/= Avariel =/=Lythari, etc. -Racially and culturally.
Rauric 12-23-07, 01:42 PM	Yea, but it is not a change that cannot be fixed. Not sure why they did it, maybe there will be some other form of Eladrins. "It really gets tiresome hearing people try to apologize for 4E by telling people to have to ignore things/change things/etc. I don't understand that mindset." This goes for me about the anti-change folks. I am not affected by games much. I deal with Real life change so much that a game changing things on me will never bother me and I really do not understand why folks cannot deal. I am not saying you are "bad" for not dealing with it like I do. I just post my opinions. There are many people that post here that hate the changes are most likely very smart people who can fix things they dislike very easily. Being smart and being reasonable may be two different things I guess. I don't mean to irritate with my whole "Just fix it" comments. Perhaps I am falling into a funk, or a routine similar to those that I think "whine" about the changes. (Whiners and gripers are two different beings IMO folks. No offense meant).
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:43 PM	Let's turn that around. Is there any real need for them to not be related? -The fact that they are two seperate races. The fact that they were never the same thing, and that lore has reflected this notion. -Bah, I'm getting dizzy with all of these posts all over the place!
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:44 PM	This goes for me about the anti-change folks. Who are these anti-change folks you're talking about? I deal with Real life change so much that a game changing things on me will never bother me and I really do not understand why folks cannot deal. Terrible argument. My life is probably one of the most regularly dynamic ones on these boards. I haven't even had a stable home, bar college, for the past 2 1/2 years. Some people deal with unwanted change by clinging onto who they are. I've only survived by focusing all the more on what I want, who I am, and getting where I am going - not by stupidly going with the flow and losing sight of my goals and desires.
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 01:44 PM	There is a need: to be continuous with older lore. That seems more like a blank space to me. There's nothing to state that they couldn't have been related at one time. That some elves haven't moved so far away from their Eladrin ancestors, while others still live among them. Elves aren't more standalone - they're smashed together with Eladrin. I mean in comparison to other races. It doesn't elevate the Elves - it CHANGES the Elves. Elves were never stated in lore to have any sort of Celestial heritage. "Celestial" heritage. Does the clumsy mechanical term for it really matter? Fantastical? What, immortal Elves with natural abilities of communion and High Magic wasn't fantastical enough before? For a good long while, they've felt like humans with pointy ears. Especially since they didn't have those "natural abilities of communion and high magic". That sort of stuff came through class level, not race.
Rauric 12-23-07, 01:47 PM	There are people that don't mind the change and there those that don't. Simple enough. There are others mixed in between. Some people sem bothered about the changes even though they can change them back to whatever they wish with Houserules.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:48 PM	For a good long while, they've felt like humans with pointy ears. Especially since they didn't have those "natural abilities of communion and high magic". That sort of stuff came through class level, not race. I guess that's why I stuck with 2E, eh?
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:48 PM	That seems more like a blank space to me. There's nothing to state that they couldn't have been related at one time. -There is the fact that Corellon Larethian created Elves (Ie, Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Wood Elves- the "3e version" of Elves, not 4e) from a mixture of his blood and Sehanine Moonbow's tears. Not Eladrin, whom the Elves slowly evolved from. Hell, Elves don't even evolve.
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 01:48 PM	Not really, no. I think it's a whole lot of hubbubaloo over something pretty insignificant. :P It's a message board. Get used to it. :P I don't mean to sound like I'm flaming you, GEV, but don't you think you're being a bit hypocritical, here? Look at post 95. Now how many times have you made that post practically verbatim? Seriously, if we're talking tiresome, I'm getting whiplash from the sense of deja vu I get from reading your posts. Is it really necessary to make almost the exact same argument repeatedly? My point on post 95 is a darn good one GK. If I tend to use it on completely separate threads, then it's to get a point across to members who may not read every single thread posted on the boards. And I don't think you're flaming me. And what's tiresome is the endless excuses for the lame, drastic changes to 4ED by posters and senior designers alike. It's obvious the designers aren't playing FR games, or else they'd see how ludicrous these changes are. Seriously, rolling some dice and playing a hour long game isn't sufficient enough to say you play FR and know what changes it needs as a senior designer.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:50 PM	There are people that don't mind the change and there those that don't. Simple enough. There are others mixed in between. Some people sem bothered about the changes even though they can change them back to whatever they wish with Houserules. Yes. Some people are bothered by changes to something they love, and are willing to pay money for, despite the fact that we could all do whatever the heck we wanted. I don't understand why that's a bad thing. I'm actually a little sad that people feel the way you do, Rauric.
Derren S. 12-23-07, 01:54 PM	Hell, Elves don't even evolve. If they don't they wouldn't have dozends of subraces....
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 01:56 PM	I don't understand why that's a bad thing. It's not a bad thing, at all. But disagreement doesn't mean that someone's saying it's a bad thing, though.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:58 PM	If they don't they wouldn't have dozends of subraces.... -It is a canon fact that Elves in the Forgotten Realms do not evolve. Elven subraces appear when they are created by the Seldarine. Leave a Wood Elf and his family for hundreds of generations, and they're not going to grow webbings and gills. They'll just be very wet, unhappy Wood Elves.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:59 PM	Derren obviously hasn't read enough about Elves to even know the basics about them, LK. Why bother? In fact, why am I bothering with this thread at all? Hm... Darn the masochism. If GK wasn't an intelligent fellow, I'd have left already. But I can disagree with intelligent people without seeing red. ;)
Stigger 12-23-07, 02:03 PM	Well, I do think there is some justification for the Elves as Eladrin thing really if you look at things carefully. Eladrin were hinted at being essentially planar fey back in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendixes, and we all know that elves originally migrated to Toril from Faerie, so who's to say that the ancestral link isn't there? Its fairly reasonable to conclude that there may very well be that link in there really, however distant. Its not entirely unreasonable really if you just connect a few disparate dots together. Beyond that, I could even see the Gold Elves claiming that eladrin ancestry if only to distance themselves from their lesser cousins... :P :D ;)
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 02:03 PM	Derren obviously hasn't read enough about Elves to even know the basics about them, LK. Why bother? -Probation. ;) If GK wasn't an intelligent fellow, I'd have left already. But I can disagree with intelligent people without seeing red. ;) -I know, I know. I'm just happy we're on the same page, usually.
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 02:05 PM	-There is the fact that Corellon Larethian created Elves (Ie, Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Wood Elves- the "3e version" of Elves, not 4e) from a mixture of his blood and Sehanine Moonbow's tears. Not Eladrin, whom the Elves slowly evolved from. Hell, Elves don't even evolve. True, but is there an origin for the Eladrin? If not, then there's no contradiction. So if you combine Elves/Eladrin, then that origin becomes their origin. If GK wasn't an intelligent fellow, I'd have left already. But I can disagree with intelligent people without seeing red. Stop it, you're making me blush. :D
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 02:06 PM	If they don't they wouldn't have dozends of subraces.... The separate sub-races of elves had nothing to do with evolution among the species for the most part. You're looking at it as human evolution on planet earth, which you shouldn't. There are separate sub-races of elves to reflect the diversity of elven deities.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 02:07 PM	Well, I do think there is some justification for the Elves as Eladrin thing really if you look at things carefully. Eladrin were hinted at being essentially planar fey back in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendixes, and we all know that elves originally migrated to Toril from Faerie, so who's to say that the ancestral link isn't there? Its fairly reasonable to conclude that there may very well be that link in there really, however distant. Its not entirely unreasonable really if you just connect a few disparate dots together. There were a lot of planar Fey around. And that being said, the Elven creation myth makes it pretty clear how the Elves came about, and Planescape reiterates (in Warriors of Heaven, I believe - so technically, CORE) that the Eladrin are in no way intrinsically connected to the Elves or the Seldarine.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 02:09 PM	Eladrin were hinted at being essentially planar fey back in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendixes, and we all know that elves originally migrated to Toril from Faerie, so who's to say that the ancestral link isn't there? -Because, again, the Elven creation mythos says that Elves (current and past incarnation, not their 4e incarnation) were created by the Seladarine. If we accept the commonly told creation myth of Abeir-Toril to be true, let us consider this true as well. As is, since Elves do not evolve. Sun Elves back in the time of Durothil are biologically the same as of today. The first Avariel were biologically the same as the Avariel of today. Culturally different, in many respects, however. But, culture =/= biology/physiology/anatomy. Thus, there cannot be some kind of "missing link" thing that connects Eladrin and Elves. Beyond that, I could even see the Gold Elves claiming that eladrin ancestry if only to distance themselves from their lesser cousins... :P :D ;) -That I can believe, although Sun Elves aren't exactly that condescending towards other Elves, in my estimation.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 02:11 PM	True, but is there an origin for the Eladrin? If not, then there's no contradiction. So if you combine Elves/Eladrin, then that origin becomes their origin. -I'm not sure if there is an Eladrin creation myth. But, again, Elves do not evolve, so you cannot say that, at one point, Elves and Eladrin were once one, but one group evolved one way, and the other evolved another way. Is there some other way the two groups could have split? As they are now, and have been, the two groups have been seperste, but similar things. Randomly linking them, I could randomly link Wooly Mammoths and Gorillas, since they are both mammals that have hair. Whereas there is a possible explanation via evolution, you cannot use that for Elves.
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 02:11 PM	-It is a canon fact that Elves in the Forgotten Realms do not evolve. Elven subraces appear when they are created by the Seldarine. Precisely my point!
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 02:11 PM	and Planescape reiterates (in Warriors of Heaven, I believe - so technically, CORE) that the Eladrin are in no way intrinsically connected to the Elves or the Seldarine. Haven't bothered to read Warriors of Heaven. Guess now's a good time as any to read it. :)
GothicDan 12-23-07, 02:14 PM	The Eladrin are planar paragons...
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 02:16 PM	-I'm not sure if there is an Eladrin creation myth. But, again, Elves do not evolve, so you cannot say that, at one point, Elves and Eladrin were once one, but one group evolved one way, and the other evolved another way. Is there some other way the two groups could have split? Theoretically. Well, from the Dragon article, they say this. By the end of the rebellion, the elves, the eladrin, and the drow were three distinct races. Each was shaped by the nature of their home and the favor of their gods. It was the war instigated by Lolth that led to their differences. So we're not talking about just plain old evolution.
Stigger 12-23-07, 02:16 PM	Haven't read that either. Gotta go off to look for it at some point after the holidays I guess. Either way, I'm not sure I agree with the idea that elves don't evolve, even if it is canon. Seems it would take them too far outside of the natural cycles of life for me to really buy it... but that's a entirely different discussion that I don't really care to get into at length.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 02:18 PM	Well, from the Dragon article, they say this. -I'm talking about current (1e, 2e, 3e) canon, not future, not-set-in-stone 4e canon.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 02:19 PM	-Man, I gotta go now...Well, it was fun. I'll be back tonight, so try not to talk too much without me.
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 02:20 PM	-Man, I gotta go now...Well, it was fun. I'll be back tonight, so try not to talk too much without me. I'll save my theory on the development of Eladrin/Drow/Elfkind for later, then. :D
GothicDan 12-23-07, 02:21 PM	It was the war instigated by Lolth that led to their differences. So we're not talking about just plain old evolution. But, the Eladrin are Planar Paragons. They should predate the whole rebellion thing.
Rauric 12-23-07, 02:22 PM	Yes. Some people are bothered by changes to something they love, and are willing to pay money for, despite the fact that we could all do whatever the heck we wanted. I don't understand why that's a bad thing. I'm actually a little sad that people feel the way you do, Rauric. I feel like I do because change happens and that is life. I have a wife and twin boys and every month something else cahnges for me. I just adapt to it. If not I would be like I was when I was in my twenties. My interests have shanged alot since then. I would have on the Anti-FR 4E change bandwagon back then. I would have raged against WOTC and blah blah blah. Now I realize I will fix what I want. I was that guy who cared alot for the Realms I guess. Now I realize it is just a game that I can do whatever I want with and have fun either way. They change it, I fix it. I deal with it. I worry about Cancer, not RPGs. (My family has a history with the Big C that is why I put that in there, I don't mean to offend anyone).
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 02:29 PM	I feel like I do because change happens and that is life. I have a wife and twin boys and every month something else cahnges for me. I just adapt to it. If not I would be like I was when I was in my twenties. My interests have shanged alot since then. I would have on the Anti-FR 4E change bandwagon back then. I would have raged against WOTC and blah blah blah. Now I realize I will fix what I want. I was that guy who cared alot for the Realms I guess. Now I realize it is just a game that I can do whatever I want with and have fun either way. They change it, I fix it. I deal with it. I worry about Cancer, not RPGs. (My family has a history with the Big C that is why I put that in there, I don't mean to offend anyone). OMG!!! You worry about Cancer? You just offended me in ways that I doubt I'll ever recover from. ;)
GothicDan 12-23-07, 02:29 PM	That's sad, Rauric. I really hope I don't become like that. I never want my passions to die. Of course, I won't have those silly kids or a wife, so I can hopefully afford to be more egoistic. :)
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 02:32 PM	But, the Eladrin are Planar Paragons. They should predate the whole rebellion thing. I don't know about Planar Paragons (Still haven't read Warriors of Heaven :P), but predating the rebellion isn't a problem.
Rauric 12-23-07, 02:33 PM	That's sad, Rauric. I really hope I don't become like that. I never want my passions to die. Of course, I won't have those silly kids or a wife, so I can hopefully afford to be more egoistic. :) Yup, the kids and wife changed me from a selfish guy to a mildly selfish guy. :D Just kidding.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 02:39 PM	I don't know about Planar Paragons (Still haven't read Warriors of Heaven ), but predating the rebellion isn't a problem. Planar Paragons are beings of pure belief, spawned from the stuff of the Outer Planes. They include, definitely, the Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths, Gehreleths, Modrons, Slaadi, Archons, Eladrin, Aasimon (sort of), Guardinals, and Rilmani. They're sort of a different class of beings.
Stigger 12-23-07, 02:42 PM	I'm not sure its a case of passions dying, so much as passions changing... at least from every person with kids I've ever known. Still glad I don't have them though... I know I'm too selfish to ever treat them properly, and its just not cool to put a kid through that.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 02:45 PM	I'm gay. We're selfish by nature. It's the most we can do to keep meaningful relationships with partners. ;)
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 02:50 PM	I'm not sure its a case of passions dying, so much as passions changing... at least from every person with kids I've ever known. Still glad I don't have them though... I know I'm too selfish to ever treat them properly, and its just not cool to put a kid through that. I have two children and am just as amoral, debaucherous and hedonistic as I was in my teens and twenties. Hell, I'm even more amoral, debaucherous and hedonistic now than I ever was in the past (that's actually saying a lot).
Rauric 12-23-07, 03:19 PM	Realizing limitations and not having them is better than the people that think they "need" kids , then realize it was a mistake. Then they screw up the kids lives by making the kid just like the selfish SOB. Heh. I am curious about Vulcan. What is his deal Dan?
GothicDan 12-23-07, 03:21 PM	He's the third Summers brother, and an Omega level mutant. Also, hot. :)
Rauric 12-23-07, 03:25 PM	Heh, what about X-treme? Lol.
AskaniPsion 12-23-07, 04:00 PM	Where?! I want to buy the Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire next, since I think there's more Vulcan in it. Ugg Vulcan .....can't stand him....he is like a little brat with generic powers....hmm kinda sounds like Cyric I hope Rachel unleashes the Phoenix Force on him and kills him. "Rise & Fall of The Shiar Empire" was mostly a let-down...so is the continuation....the "What If" was especially bad with AWFUL Stroman artwork. I wonder if the 4E elven-kin (much easier than saying drow, Eladrin and Elves) will still get the 4-hour sleep benefit. I think all 3 should get it instead of 1.
AskaniPsion 12-23-07, 04:02 PM	I'm gay. We're selfish by nature. It's the most we can do to keep meaningful relationships with partners. ;) I am gay also but FAR from selfish...that may describe you but please don't stereotype that ALL gays are that way.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 04:06 PM	Hence the winking face at the end. And I always felt that gay people were a little more intelligent in accepting that they are selfish. It makes me sad that some of us are still trying to use society's foibles as covers. EVERYONE is innately selfish; if you trace back all root desires, it comes down do what YOU want. Good luck in finding yourself. PS: Of course, if you're happy as is, more power to you. I feel that ultimate happiness is the truest goal of life, and that we all just reach that goal via different paths. I guess ultimately I'm a Lliiran. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 04:10 PM	I'll repost most of what I wrote on Candlekeep: I've said it before and I'll say it again--all the new lore about elves (fey?) is wonderful for a custom, non-FR campaign setting. This part creeped me out though: The elves as a race were neither good nor evil -- they didn't think in those terms. They enjoyed beauty and pleasure, and many of them found pleasure in kindness and beauty in every facet of life, and so acted in good ways. Still, they might inflict pain or even death, not out of cruelty, but purely out of curiosity. Ick! :yuck: That just makes me think of something like "I stuck a knife in its heart just to see what would happen..." Sounds like something out of a horror movie (or a psychological thriller). Also, the drow are mentioned as having "blank white eyes", and the accompanying picture, while quite beautifully done, also shows orbs with no pupils. Are they saying drow won't have pupils?
GothicDan 12-23-07, 04:11 PM	Purely out of curiosity? That's not very Elven. They're an experienced enough race to KNOW what happens.
AskaniPsion 12-23-07, 04:11 PM	Good luck in finding yourself. I am quite happy with myself with caring & being there for others. No need to find myself...I already found myself and I quite like it. :D I believe in karma....what you give out you get back also and it makes the world better in the process.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 04:13 PM	You just reiterated my statement... what you give comes back to YOU. :) Rational selfishness should be acknowledged for what it is; ego shouldn't be stamped out by a sense of religious/moral altruism.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 04:15 PM	By the way: I thought the little "legend" in the Noble Eladrin section was great. I'd love to dive into all this new lore by way of a custom campaign setting that was based around it (such as the "core" setting).
GothicDan 12-23-07, 04:16 PM	I really do love the Eladrin. I've played a Tulani and a Shierre in online games. Wonderful.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 04:17 PM	Purely out of curiosity? That's not very Elven. They're an experienced enough race to KNOW what happens. Yeah. I figured that eventually an elf (or human, or dwarf, or...) would know what happens to most organisms if you cause them pain or death. Of course, the entry said nothing about context, either (such as scientific experiments with unknown creatures), so it just came off to me as incredibly creepy.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 04:19 PM	I could see a Drow doing it, of course... But they're hardly Elves. ;) Ah, I miss roleplaying online. I have an urge to play a Moon Elven Bladesinger, sort of a knight errant, a romantic champion who worships Sehanine and Hanali.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 04:28 PM	Nah, new players will be fine with it. Hopefully a little sidebar that wil explain it all and it will be fine. Those famous last words...
Alediran 12-23-07, 04:34 PM	Ah, I miss roleplaying online. I have an urge to play a Moon Elven Bladesinger, sort of a knight errant, a romantic champion who worships Sehanine and Hanali. I'm playing a Sun Elf Bladesinger (Elven Netbook version) who follows Tethrin Veraldč in a short campaign DM'd by one of my players. We are supposed to stop the return of a powerfull vampiress who could become divine if her plan succedes.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 04:52 PM	I could see a Drow doing it, of course... But they're hardly Elves. ;) And likely, they'd hurt a creature out of cruelty, not merely out of curiosity. Ah, I miss roleplaying online. I have an urge to play a Moon Elven Bladesinger, sort of a knight errant, a romantic champion who worships Sehanine and Hanali. I like the sound of that.:)
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 05:02 PM	Again, the 4ED elf is a joke!
Another Gnome 12-23-07, 05:17 PM	At least it's a good joke this time around!
Rauric 12-23-07, 05:33 PM	Zing. That gnome is like a ninja.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 07:02 PM	Tiny and shady.
Rauric 12-23-07, 07:18 PM	And like THAT...he's gone.
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 07:32 PM	At least it's a good joke this time around! I don't see much good in 4ED elves, sorry.
Stigger 12-23-07, 07:40 PM	Well, the lack of the -2 Con stat mod is a good thing in my mind...
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 07:48 PM	Well, the lack of the -2 Con stat mod is a good thing in my mind... I just don't like it. Why not just give your PC 18 ability stats across the board while we're at it.
Rauric 12-23-07, 07:56 PM	The lack of -stats seems like a good thing.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 08:18 PM	Eh, I was even a fan of min and max ability scores from 2E. It made demihumans less "humans in funny suits."
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 09:22 PM	I just don't like it. Why not just give your PC 18 ability stats across the board while we're at it. Great idea, why didn't I think of that?;) :P
Dark Wizard 12-24-07, 02:55 AM	Ah, I miss roleplaying online. I have an urge to play a Moon Elven Bladesinger, sort of a knight errant, a romantic champion who worships Sehanine and Hanali. I'm playing a Sun Elf Bladesinger (Elven Netbook version) who follows Tethrin Veraldč in a short campaign DM'd by one of my players. We are supposed to stop the return of a powerfull vampiress who could become divine if her plan succedes. I like the sound of that.:) I haven't played an FR game in so long. I used to participate in at least 1-2 online FR games for my FR fix, but I can't seem to find them anymore (well online D&D games in general) and the old ones scattered due to time and real life stuff. That's why I'm hoping the whole D&DI thing works out and I can have a new place to find games. Of course WotC's new setup no doubt uses the New Realms with all that new stuff. So we'll see.
GreenKnight 12-24-07, 04:57 AM	That's why I'm hoping the whole D&DI thing works out and I can have a new place to find games. I'm hoping the same. It's been ages since I've played in a regular Realms game, as my old gaming group has scattered to the four winds (some moving up state, others moving out of state). That online tabletop will make it possible to get the band back together, so to speak. Of course WotC's new setup no doubt uses the New Realms with all that new stuff. So we'll see. I don't think rules are hardwired into the thing, so it's something you probably don't need to worry about.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-24-07, 09:13 AM	I'd try out D&DI to play the 4E core setting, or the old Realms (if that's possible).
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 02:27 AM	I hope Rachel unleashes the Phoenix Force on him and kills him. -To quote Stone Cold: "Can I get a Hell yeah!?" :D Rachel is awesome. It's that simple. In the miniseries I alluded to earlier, she began breaking out some of her remnant Phoenix Force, to kick some ass. She was held back, but promised to open a can of whoop ass at a more opportune time. "Rise & Fall of The Shiar Empire" was mostly a let-down...so is the continuation....the "What If" was especially bad with AWFUL Stroman artwork. -It started out strong, and suffered a few hiccups. I would have prefered that entire storyline to have ocurred in it's own series. Sure, I'd have to shell out money to buy a fourth comic series every month (X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, Star Wars: Dark Times, and this theoretical one), but the story would have been done much more justice if it was rolled into an ongoing "Starjammers" comic. The main problem was that, at points, things seemed rushed. -Anyway, I'm back now. :D
Rauric 12-25-07, 06:32 AM	Too many X-titles has diluted the product and stories over the years. Instead of great stories left and right like we got in the 80's we had alot more hit and misses. Sad. There should only be 2 x-titles only IMO.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 07:35 AM	There should only be 2 x-titles only IMO. -Nah, no way. There are too many stories to tell for only two titles (presumably X-Men and Uncanny X-Men). I'd like a few X-titles, but they'd all have to have their own in-comic continuity. In otherwords, Wolverine can't be in every one! Sure, there can be crossovers every now and then, but you shouldn't have to read every single X-title to figure out what's going on.
Rauric 12-25-07, 08:51 AM	Ok, I thought so too when I was your age. I wanted as much as possible. Now I realize quality over quanitiy is the most improtant thing for me in comics. With a limited budget, I need good stories as much as possible instead of redundant ones with redundant characters, with redundant powers ect. I am 32 and have been reading comcis since like '82. I am kinda jaded too since I have read almost every type of story and concept at least 4 times now over the years. Basically comics do that alot. Sight. Anyway, IMO the stories were better when there were fewer Spider-man, X-titles, Superman books ect. There need to be one or two titles with TOP NOTCH writers each story ark.
AskaniPsion 12-25-07, 12:28 PM	-To quote Stone Cold: "Can I get a Hell yeah!?" :D Rachel is awesome. It's that simple. In the miniseries I alluded to earlier, she began breaking out some of her remnant Phoenix Force, to kick some ass. She was held back, but promised to open a can of whoop ass at a more opportune time. Rachel has always been my all time favorite comic book character - even got a Phoenix tattoo to honor her. I just wish she would get rid of the awful "Marvel Girl" codename as I see it as a step back for her. If she wanted to honor her mom, she should have taken the name "Phoenix" again as that is what Jean was using when she died AGAIN. I do like the new costume better than the awful green & yellow Marvel Girl one. Anyway back to the elves.....if Sehanine will be Goddess of the Moon in Core, I thought FR was CORE now? wasn't it? Love the art for the eladrin....can't wait to use one.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-25-07, 01:24 PM	Anyway back to the elves.....if Sehanine will be Goddess of the Moon in Core, I thought FR was CORE now? wasn't it? Hmm, I might be off, but...wasn't Sehanine already associated with the moon? It's not that FR = Core. There aren't too many details to go by, yet, but it does seem like the designers are trying to make the mechanics of the different settings as similar as possible (if not the same). And I'd expect all the core races to wind up up in the FR in some fashion (even if they have different names and different history--for example, gold elves will not be called "eladrin").
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 03:21 PM	Ok, I thought so too when I was your age. I wanted as much as possible. Now I realize quality over quanitiy is the most improtant thing for me in comics. With a limited budget, I need good stories as much as possible instead of redundant ones with redundant characters, with redundant powers ect. I am 32 and have been reading comcis since like '82. I am kinda jaded too since I have read almost every type of story and concept at least 4 times now over the years. Basically comics do that alot. Sight. Anyway, IMO the stories were better when there were fewer Spider-man, X-titles, Superman books ect. There need to be one or two titles with TOP NOTCH writers each story ark. -Eh, you see it one way, and I see it another. Having multiple titles running at once doesn't necessarily have an impact on the quality of the title. Theoretically, you could have multiple titles, all with good writing/artwork. -Theoretically. :) Rachel has always been my all time favorite comic book character - even got a Phoenix tattoo to honor her. -I never liked the 80s/90s version of her. But, when she returned in...the 00s, with X-Men comics looking more realistic and less cartoony in terms of artwork, I came to like her. And then, in one issue, when she pwned the White Queen, it was pretty good too. If she wanted to honor her mom, she should have taken the name "Phoenix" again as that is what Jean was using when she died AGAIN. I do like the new costume better than the awful green & yellow Marvel Girl one. -I'd like Rachel being called Phoenix, and inheriting the Phoenix Force back. I like her yellow/green costume, though. I can't stand that new one she has. Anyway back to the elves.....if Sehanine will be Goddess of the Moon in Core, I thought FR was CORE now? wasn't it? -Not necessarily. When there are changes in Core, all settings follow suit, in some form or another.
AskaniPsion 12-25-07, 11:49 PM	-I never liked the 80s/90s version of her. But, when she returned in...the 00s, with X-Men comics looking more realistic and less cartoony in terms of artwork, I came to like her. And then, in one issue, when she pwned the White Queen, it was pretty good too. Emma is another of my favorites. :D -I'd like Rachel being called Phoenix, and inheriting the Phoenix Force back. I like her yellow/green costume, though. I can't stand that new one she has. She doesn't need the full Phoenix Force but I hope she keeps the current blue "echo" of the Phoenix. But from the May previews, it looks like Rachel won't even be in any X-books. I like the current "Messiah" storyline, but I don't like the books that are coming out of it. Poor Psylocke & Sage stuck in "Exiles! Claremont used to be great but his writing is awful now - how many times can you keep rewriting the same stories over and over?! [/QUOTE] From the story, it doesn't look like Lolth was banished and turned into a spider -demon. It looks like she just decided to take the symbol of the Spider. Maybe for the female eating the male symbolism. hehe :D At least they finally made it official in "Grand History of the Realms (Forgotten Realms) " that Lolth became a Greater Goddess.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 12:46 AM	She doesn't need the full Phoenix Force but I hope she keeps the current blue "echo" of the Phoenix. -Meh, I don't like that. But, that's me. But from the May previews, it looks like Rachel won't even be in any X-books. -She, along with a couple of other X-Men and cosmic miscreants are involved in a mini-series that stems from Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire. However, it's only a five issue mini-series, and they are already up to issue 4. Presumably, assuming she and the other X-Men stay alive, they'll be written out, as were most of the X-Men from Clairmont's recent run with Uncanny X-Men I like the current "Messiah" storyline, but I don't like the books that are coming out of it. -It's all an extremely interesting story, but just don't like how, in order to get the "full scoop", you need to read every random X-title. Cable is my favorite X-Man, though (Heh, get it? Cable? X-Man? Heh...), so hopefully, he'll be kicking some major ass. And, hopefully he gets his actual powers back- no more of this "technonet" crap. Poor Psylocke & Sage stuck in "Exiles! Claremont used to be great but his writing is awful now - how many times can you keep rewriting the same stories over and over?! -Never liked Sage, but I like Psylocke. More the mid-to-late 90's incarnation of her, not really the current version "who can shatter mountains", or the original version.
AskaniPsion 12-26-07, 01:32 AM	-Meh, I don't like that. But, that's me. -She, along with a couple of other X-Men and cosmic miscreants are involved in a mini-series that stems from Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire. However, it's only a five issue mini-series, and they are already up to issue 4. Presumably, assuming she and the other X-Men stay alive, they'll be written out, as were most of the X-Men from Clairmont's recent run with Uncanny X-Men Yeah I am reading it too but it ends in 2 months and there is NO mention of Rachel after it.There will be only 3 X-team books and she isn't emntioned in any of them - the only one she "might" be in is "X-Men: Legacy" which is birthed from just regular "X-Men". -It's all an extremely interesting story, but just don't like how, in order to get the "full scoop", you need to read every random X-title. Cable is my favorite X-Man, though (Heh, get it? Cable? X-Man? Heh...), so hopefully, he'll be kicking some major ass. And, hopefully he gets his actual powers back- no more of this "technonet" crap. Yeah I always liked Cable but I wish they would give him his powers back and have him doing his Askani techniques. I loved when Ray used to hang with him. They made a great team. -Never liked Sage, but I like Psylocke. More the mid-to-late 90's incarnation of her, not really the current version "who can shatter mountains", or the original version. I loved Sage during X-Treme but don't like how Claremont writes her anymore. As for Psylocke, I like the TELEPATH Psylocke - I hate that she only has her TK powers now. I say give her telepathy & precognition back and just give her a telepathic psi-sword. Oh better get back to talking about elves....hehe...
MarkusTay63 12-26-07, 03:33 PM	Does Santa use Eladrin to make toys, now? :confused:
Derren S. 12-26-07, 03:40 PM	Nah, there are so many unemployed gnomes now that it is more economically to outsource the work and let gnomes work in sweat shops 24/7 for minimum pay.
AskaniPsion 12-26-07, 06:19 PM	Does Santa use Eladrin to make toys, now? :confused: Yeah that is why the gnomes are missing from the 4E PHB, Santa imprisoned them all :D Santa used Sigil to go to every world and kidnap all the little gnomes - just hope you don't get any of the toys made by the Dragonlance Tinker gnomes!
MarkusTay63 12-26-07, 09:27 PM	Must be the ebil Robot Santa, (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5a/Robotsanta.jpg) then. ;)
18DELTA 12-26-07, 10:00 PM	Nah, there are so many unemployed gnomes now that it is more economically to outsource the work and let gnomes work in sweat shops 24/7 for minimum pay. I heard that they are now working for "Kathy Lee Gifford"!!!;) :P The pay is:twocents: :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:00 AM	Nah, there are so many unemployed gnomes now that it is more economically to outsource the work and let gnomes work in sweat shops 24/7 for minimum pay. -And, it's not like anyone in those countries cares about child labor laws, anyway, so claiming to be kids wouldn't even save 'em. Must be the ebil Robot Santa, (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5a/Robotsanta.jpg) then. ;) -What about Kwanzaabot, or the Hanukkah Zombie?
Green Elven Vampire 12-27-07, 01:15 AM	That new Races and classes book tells of 11 new races of elves. And people were complaining about the addition of Star elves, sheesh!! :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:28 AM	That new Races and classes book tells of 11 new races of elves. And people were complaining about the addition of Star elves, sheesh!! :rolleyes: -What!? There are going to be 11 new races of Elves? And they are, do you know?
GreenKnight 12-27-07, 08:00 AM	That new Races and classes book tells of 11 new races of elves. And people were complaining about the addition of Star elves, sheesh!! :rolleyes: You misread that, GEV. What the new Races & Classes book says is that they counted up the available players races in 3E, and that there were 11 races of Elves. In 3E. It doesn't say that there'll be 11 races of Elves (new or otherwise) in 4E. Here's the quote. In the process of choosing what would become the Iconic Races, Rich Baker counted over 135 available PC races, from what was made available to players in WotC’s 3E products, including FR and Eberron (but excluding Dragon Magazine, Savage Spieces and all other monsters with a level adjustment). That includes, “...11 races of elves.” -- cue complaints about Star Elves here.
Stigger 12-27-07, 09:29 AM	There were 11 races of elves in 3e? Must have missed about half of them... oh well. Never liked elves much anyway, unless it was to use them as a punching bag of rhetoric and vitriol. Ebil Elveseses...
Rauric 12-27-07, 09:49 AM	Racheal in Excalibur was a good character. Too many titles has diluted the Franchise. Not just titles with the X in it, but anything mutant related should be in a core (1 or 2 X book) IMO. I have been reading them forever (except last 5 years) and have seen the same rehashed sotires since the 90's. This could have been fixed, but Corporate greed took over.
Green Elven Vampire 12-27-07, 01:54 PM	You misread that, GEV. What the new Races & Classes book says is that they counted up the available players races in 3E, and that there were 11 races of Elves. In 3E. It doesn't say that there'll be 11 races of Elves (new or otherwise) in 4E. Here's the quote. Ahhh I see, I see! Thanks you GK.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 02:37 PM	-Thanks for that scare, GEV. :mad:
Green Elven Vampire 12-27-07, 03:05 PM	-Thanks for that scare, GEV. :mad: LoL, sorry man. Though I don't remember there being 11 races of elves in 3.5ED. Let's see... Gold elves Moon elves Copper elves Green elves Star elves Lythari elves Avariel elves Dark elves The other three must come from Eberron.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 03:29 PM	-If you want to stretch things, you can also include Snow Elves in the Realms, since there is some circumstantial evidence to point to it.
Green Elven Vampire 12-27-07, 03:32 PM	-If you want to stretch things, you can also include Snow Elves in the Realms, since there is some circumstantial evidence to point to it. Have you mapped out a Snow Elf yet LK? stats, racial abilities and all that jazz?
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 03:45 PM	Have you mapped out a Snow Elf yet LK? stats, racial abilities and all that jazz? -There are already stats for Snow Elves in Frostburn. In my own homebrew setting, I've made seperate stats for Snow Elves. -However, since we know nothing of Faerūnian Snow Elves, there are no stats, and I would be extremely hesitant of making stats for them. They could have three heads, for all we know...
GreenKnight 12-27-07, 04:14 PM	LoL, sorry man. Though I don't remember there being 11 races of elves in 3.5ED. Let's see... Gold elves Moon elves Copper elves Green elves Star elves Lythari elves Avariel elves Dark elves The other three must come from Eberron. Sun Elves and Gray Elves from the Monster Manual could be counted separately, as they've got different racial stat bonus. The first having +2 Int, -2 Con, and the second having +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Con. So that's nine. Add in Aquatic Elves and you got 10. The Eberron Elves appear to be no different then PHB Elves, so I don't think they count. The 11th, then, may be Half-Elves, Fey'ri, or the aformentioned Snow Elves (Don't have Frostburn, so no clue).
Green Elven Vampire 12-27-07, 04:53 PM	Sun Elves and Gray Elves from the Monster Manual could be counted separately, as they've got different racial stat bonus. The first having +2 Int, -2 Con, and the second having +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Con. So that's nine. Add in Aquatic Elves and you got 10. The Eberron Elves appear to be no different then PHB Elves, so I don't think they count. The 11th, then, may be Half-Elves, Fey'ri, or the aformentioned Snow Elves (Don't have Frostburn, so no clue). OMG! How could I have forgotten Aquatic elves??? And aren't Grey elves the same as Moon elves? and High elves are Gold elves? That's what I always thought.
GreenKnight 12-27-07, 04:56 PM	Well, as far as Sun Elves and Gray Elves go, I'm just talking statwise. They're supposed to be the same, but they have different stat bonuses/penalties. Unlike Moon Elves and High Elves, who're supposed to be the same AND have the same stat bonuses/penalties. The stat difference is enough to class Gray Elves and Sun Elves as different Elf variants, though, IMO.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-27-07, 05:54 PM	LoL, sorry man. Though I don't remember there being 11 races of elves in 3.5ED. Let's see... Gold elves Moon elves Copper elves Green elves Star elves Lythari elves Avariel elves Dark elves The other three must come from Eberron. But Eberron doesn't have "subraces". All elves are just elves, as the creator of the setting prefers to consider elven differences cultural rather than racial.
Stigger 12-27-07, 06:58 PM	Weren't subterranean-but-not-drow elves mentioned somewhere at some point? Like Rockseer Elves or something... don't recall if that was for the Realms or not though... been a really long time since I looked at the books I think it was in. Could be hallucinating it for all I know. :D
Green Elven Vampire 12-27-07, 07:35 PM	Weren't subterranean-but-not-drow elves mentioned somewhere at some point? Like Rockseer Elves or something... don't recall if that was for the Realms or not though... been a really long time since I looked at the books I think it was in. Could be hallucinating it for all I know. :D Rockseer elves were in the 2ED boxed mega-adventure entitled Night Below. They were 7 feet tall, focused on earth elemental magic and were androgynous. Hope that helps.
Diffan 12-27-07, 07:44 PM	Sun Elves and Gray Elves from the Monster Manual could be counted separately, as they've got different racial stat bonus. The first having +2 Int, -2 Con, and the second having +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Con. So that's nine. Add in Aquatic Elves and you got 10. The Eberron Elves appear to be no different then PHB Elves, so I don't think they count. The 11th, then, may be Half-Elves, Fey'ri, or the aformentioned Snow Elves (Don't have Frostburn, so no clue). Snow Elves -Explorers into the farthest reaches of the ice sometimes return with stories of magnificent ice cities built atop remote mountaintops that are inhabited by snow elves, folk with eyes as white as snow and hair that coils like fragile wisps of cloud. They have no physical resistance to the cold but their cities are built to shield their citizens from the surrounding environment. As a result, snow elves tend to leave their cities only rarely, and have not had much contact with the outside world. -Snow elves are in most reguards similar to those described in the PHB, but with the following notable changes: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma: Snow elves remain as graceful and fluid in their motions as their warmer-dwelling kin. Although they are generally much hardier than other elves, their icy environs have made their emotions sharp and their attitude even more elitist and haughty than normal. That's the little blurb you get from Frostburn about the snow elves. Not sure if they're canon, though they are in mine.
GothicDan 12-27-07, 10:16 PM	Also, Shadow Elves. And Dirminesti, Dargonesti, Kagonesti, Qualinesti, and Silvanesti.
18DELTA 12-27-07, 11:20 PM	But Eberron doesn't have "subraces". All elves are just elves, as the creator of the setting prefers to consider elven differences cultural rather than racial. That's what it's starting to "look" like in the D&D now. See the 11 sub-races are a creation of TSR. WotC continued the pattern with 3E and 3.5E, now what if they(WotC) had decided to do all these lore changes with 3E? Maybe this is what Eric Mona was talking about on the Paizo Boards awhile back. Remember my "Your Fired Posts" from awhile back? Maybe this is WotC's way of firing players that dont like the lore changes that are going to happen with 4E? Remember that WotC owns the intellectual property to D&D and the FR, it's their game and setting they can do with it as they please. It doesn't mean that I will like it. Yet somebody will like it. Just my :twocents:
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 11:49 PM	Weren't subterranean-but-not-drow elves mentioned somewhere at some point? Like Rockseer Elves or something... don't recall if that was for the Realms or not though... been a really long time since I looked at the books I think it was in. Could be hallucinating it for all I know. :D -Those were indeed the Rockseer Elves from Night Below. While they aren't FR Specific, the article I did for them in Elves of Faerūn provides enough 'evidence' to allow a DM/player to include them/play them in the Realms, if he/she likes. Yet somebody will like it. -And, he's going to get his ass kicked. :D
Stigger 12-28-07, 06:35 AM	Twice...
MarkusTay63 12-29-07, 01:32 PM	Also, Green Elves can be further sub-divided into 'Sylvan' (Wood) and 'Grugach' (Wild). GH also had 'Valley Elves', which were just as tall as humans (way back before TSR bought FR), who were much more cosmopolitan and acted very human. They may also have said such things as "Oh my gawd!", "Gag me with a spoon", and "Fer Sure"! :P
Stigger 12-29-07, 02:09 PM	The ever-elusive Keebler-Tel'Quessir too... oh, House Elves too... and pixies and sprites, who as everyone knows are really just really, really short elves with wings...
Elbereth_Silverleaf 12-29-07, 11:56 PM	I read Bil Slobber...err whatever's explanation/sneekpeek as to elves and eladrins and could only scratch my head and think "Whaaaat"? This is the most horrible example of retconning (con being the operative word) that I have ever come across. Is the Coronal of Evermeet a Sun or Moon elf? Is the queen of Celine in Greyhawk a Grey or High elf? ..............When something (in this case the campaign settings) ain't broke, don't "fix" them just to increase profit revenue.............
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 07:36 AM	Is the Coronal of Evermeet a Sun or Moon elf? -The King and Queen of Evermeet, King Zoar and Queen Amlauril, are both Moon Elves. When something (in this case the campaign settings) ain't broke, don't "fix" them just to increase profit revenue............. -Agreed.
Rauric 12-30-07, 10:09 AM	In the end this (IMO) will only really bother DIE HARD Lore FR fans. Casual fans just won't care.
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 10:24 AM	In the end this (IMO) will only really bother DIE HARD Lore FR fans. Casual fans just won't care. -Eh? Of course they will. Steve: "Are you finished rewriting up your favorite character to 4e yet?" Arielle: "Yeah. Leah Elveswarrior is ready to go!" Steve: "Oh, by the way, your character isn't an Elf anymore. She's an Eladrin." Arielle: "...What?" Steve: "Yeah, she's an Eladrin now. Never was an Elf, actually." Arielle: "But...I'm a member of the 'Elveswarrior' family. Steve: "Yeah, but 'oh well'. The rules' the rules, what can I tell you?" Arielle: "That's dumb. The entire history of my character is messed up now!" Steve: "Don't look at me. I didn't do it".* *Note, this is actually partially based on a conversation I had with my sister when I was skimming Races and Classes the other day. She plays D&D, but is not into the Realms, and is nowhere as dedicated to it as me. -So, anyway, while it might not bother "casual fans" as much as "diehard fans", there's no doubt in my mind that it'll bother them, too.
MerrikCale 12-30-07, 04:41 PM	--So, anyway, while it might not bother "casual fans" as much as "diehard fans", there's no doubt in my mind that it'll bother them, too. Of course it will, they are missing with tradition.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 12:35 AM	Of course it will, they are missing with tradition. -Well, that's what differentiates 'casual fans' from 'hardcore fans'. Many 'casual fans' don't really care that tradition is being messed with, if they even realize at all.
Rauric 12-31-07, 09:32 AM	-Well, that's what differentiates 'casual fans' from 'hardcore fans'. Many 'casual fans' don't really care that tradition is being messed with, if they even realize at all. Yup. Most of my players are casual fans that found the Realms through me or through the campaign (3E) book. Only one is a novels guy and is a bit more than casual. They like the Realms but said it felt overwhelming for some of them till I ran them through it. I never brought Elminster into one session so they were happy. I asked them about elves and they were ok with it. This is just one select group of course but I found a lot of people in my gaming store to fit this bill, even old school Realmers were casual and just liked the setting since it was the only real world that was supported for so long. Plus it is a good setting overall.
GothicDan 12-31-07, 09:46 AM	Tiny people easily feel overwhelmed. ;)
Derren S. 12-31-07, 09:46 AM	-Eh? Of course they will. Steve: "Are you finished rewriting up your favorite character to 4e yet?" Arielle: "Yeah. Leah Elveswarrior is ready to go!" Steve: "Oh, by the way, your character isn't an Elf anymore. She's an Eladrin." Arielle: "...What?" Steve: "Yeah, she's an Eladrin now. Never was an Elf, actually." Arielle: "But...I'm a member of the 'Elveswarrior' family. Steve: "Yeah, but 'oh well'. The rules' the rules, what can I tell you?" Arielle: "That's dumb. The entire history of my character is messed up now!" Steve: "Don't look at me. I didn't do it".* *Note, this is actually partially based on a conversation I had with my sister when I was skimming Races and Classes the other day. She plays D&D, but is not into the Realms, and is nowhere as dedicated to it as me. -So, anyway, while it might not bother "casual fans" as much as "diehard fans", there's no doubt in my mind that it'll bother them, too. I haven't followed this whole discussion but you are aware that there are still elves in 4E and there is nothing which prevents you from converting a 3E elf into an 4E elf? Even if the 3E character is a Sun Elf, it will still be a Sun elf in 4E and just uses the Eladrin stats.m The name of the race is just an arbitrary label with no relevance at all.
GothicDan 12-31-07, 10:06 AM	Even if the 3E character is a Sun Elf, it will still be a Sun elf in 4E and just uses the Eladrin stats.m The name of the race is just an arbitrary label with no relevance at all. The relevance is that naming traditions in the game should be made to facilitate learning, not confusion. This is a reason why people tried to collect non-contradictory definitions into official dictionaries. Then again, this is long term psychology and education. I can't expect any game designers, or the majority of players, to even WANT to understand this sort of thing. Or care about it. I sure wish people cared more.
Derren S. 12-31-07, 10:20 AM	Considering that the FR Sun Elves (metropolitan, spellcasters, feudal society) always contradicted the general elven D&D and generic mythological lore (elves being forest dwellers, archers and chaotic) renaming them into Eladrins would actually support learning, not go against it.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 10:26 AM	I haven't followed this whole discussion but... -Well, follow it next time. Considering that the FR Sun Elves (metropolitan, spellcasters, feudal society) always contradicted the general elven D&D and generic mythological lore (elves being forest dwellers, archers and chaotic) renaming them into Eladrins would actually support learning, not go against it. -Simply leaving them be would have been best. Stat changes aside, using the term 'Eladrin' was a poor, poor choice, as 'Eladrin' is a term that already comes with meaning (meaning that is not Sun Elves).
Derren S. 12-31-07, 10:28 AM	-Simply leaving them be would have been best. Stat changes aside, using the term 'Eladrin' was a poor, poor choice, as 'Eladrin' is a term that already comes with meaning (meaning that is not Sun Elves). Well, then it is good that in FR lore Sun Elves will still be called Sun Elves. They just use a different stat block than Wild/Wood/Whatever Elves (thats not really different than in 3E). That the race which those stats are assigned to are called Eladrin in the core book doesn't really affects anything. At least that is how I understand the designers.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 10:30 AM	Well, then it is good that in FR lore Sun Elves will still be called Sun Elves. They just use a different stat block than Wild/Wood/Whatever Elves (thats not really different than in 3E). That the race which those stats are assigned to are called Eladrin in the core book doesn't really affects anything. At least that is how I understand the designers. -Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! We already know that Sun Elves will still be called Sun Elves, and their stats will reflect those of Eladrin. That doesn't change anything that I said above about the term, however.
Derren S. 12-31-07, 10:43 AM	Considering that this term will not even be used in 4E FR I don't see what your problem is. Are you sure you are not only searching for artificial reasons to complain about 4E?
18DELTA 12-31-07, 10:46 AM	Considering that this term will not even be used in 4E FR I don't see what your problem is. Are you sure you are not only searching for artificial reasons to complain about 4E? I think they will still be called Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Star Elf, whatever. They will use the Eladrin stats in game.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 10:48 AM	Considering that this term will not even be used in 4E FR I don't see what your problem is. Are you sure you are not only searching for artificial reasons to complain about 4E? -In the 4e FRCS, it will say (and I am paraphrasing), "Sun Elves will use the stats of Eladrin. For Eladrin stats, see page XX of the Player's Handbook..." -Do you even understand my underlying point? Apparently not. Using the term 'Eladrin' simply is a poor choice, as it already comes with a meaning that is not 'Magically inclined Elves'. If the Elven race needs to be seperated, I'd rather see 'Elves', and 'Schmees'. A 'Schmee' comes with no connotations, and there'd be no problem dropping the mold of the 'magically inclined Elf' in there.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-31-07, 10:49 AM	The relevance is that naming traditions in the game should be made to facilitate learning, not confusion. Especially considering that the name of the game for 4E is "streamlining" and making things more simple.
Derren S. 12-31-07, 10:54 AM	-In the 4e FRCS, it will say (and I am paraphrasing), "Sun Elves will use the stats of Eladrin. For Eladrin stats, see page XX of the Player's Handbook..." -Do you even understand my underlying point? Apparently not. Using the term 'Eladrin' simply is a poor choice, as it already comes with a meaning that is not 'Magically inclined Elves'. So one whole sentence in the FRCS. And that is a problem for you? Yes I do not understand your point. Yes, those Elves will be called Eladrin in core and yes Eladrin was until now used for a type of outsiders. But in core elves never had magic associated with them in the first place so 4E elves are still very similar to 3E core elves. And in FR nothing will change as the term Eladrin will not be used. Would you also complain if instead of saying "Sun Elves will use the stats of Eladrin." they would reprint the complete Eladrin statblock and just exchange the word "Eladrin" with "High Elf" or "Sun Elf" in the 4E FRCS?
Derren S. 12-31-07, 10:58 AM	-In the 4e FRCS, it will say (and I am paraphrasing), "Sun Elves will use the stats of Eladrin. For Eladrin stats, see page XX of the Player's Handbook..." -Do you even understand my underlying point? Apparently not. Using the term 'Eladrin' simply is a poor choice, as it already comes with a meaning that is not 'Magically inclined Elves'. So one whole sentence in the FRCS. And that is a problem for you? Yes I do not understand your point. Yes, those Elves will be called Eladrin in core and yes Eladrin was until now used for a type of outsiders. But in core elves never had magic associated with them in the first place so 4E elves are still very similar to 3E core elves. And in FR nothing will change as the term Eladrin will not be used. Would you also complain if instead of saying "Sun Elves will use the stats of Eladrin." they would reprint the complete Eladrin statblock and just exchange the word "Eladrin" with "High Elf" or "Sun Elf" in the 4E FRCS? Especially considering that the name of the game for 4E is "streamlining" and making things more simple. Having two entries for two races instead of making one race a subrace from the other doesn't sound to me as it would make things more complicated. Player: I play an elf GM: A wizard elf or a wood elf? Sounds more complicated than Player: I play an Eladrin GM: Ok. Of course this only applies to core as in FR you have Gold/Moon/Star elves and Wood/Wild elves.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-31-07, 11:05 AM	A "wizard elf"? Never heard of that subrace.:P
GreenKnight 12-31-07, 11:09 AM	You've never heard of the Smartypants Elf Subrace?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-31-07, 11:44 AM	Nope, can't say that I have.
GreenKnight 12-31-07, 12:17 PM	Then clearly you're not a Smartypants Elf, because they know everything.
msatran 12-31-07, 01:47 PM	The character history thing is the part that really offends me most, because it really is an across the board screwjob. If you're an elf, your entire family history can be wiped out. If you're a tiefling, your background can get summarily obliterated. I've already had players tell me "Mike, what am I going to do, I've played this character for 19 levels. Now he's going to vanish in a puff of logic?" If you're a half dragon, you pretty much explode in a cloud of backstory. God FORBID you should be a high level or epic level cleric! "Well, Yalyntha, Priestess of the Red Knight, who gave up your real name to join my church, I'm really Tempus!" BOINGGGGGGGGGGGG. Tempus appears in a chain bikini and a dress. "I decided to explore my feminine side, and..." If I were playing that cleric, I'd leave the faith and every cleric spell I ever cast. My world is BUILT around character relationships with their deities for divine casters. That's WHY they grant these people spells! These changes are outrageous. NO Cleric of those levels would take this even remotely well. It will ruin years of backstory, especially for divine casters of any sort. How do they even JUSTIFY the existence of Dragonborn in the realms. I would rather have had a bunch of Shekinester worshipping Lizard Men than this.
Rauric 12-31-07, 01:53 PM	The character history thing is the part that really offends me most, because it really is an across the board screwjob. If you're an elf, your entire family history can be wiped out. If you're a tiefling, your background can get summarily obliterated. I've already had players tell me "Mike, what am I going to do, I've played this character for 19 levels. Now he's going to vanish in a puff of logic?" If you're a half dragon, you pretty much explode in a cloud of backstory. God FORBID you should be a high level or epic level cleric! "Well, Yalyntha, Priestess of the Red Knight, who gave up your real name to join my church, I'm really Tempus!" BOINGGGGGGGGGGGG. Tempus appears in a chain bikini and a dress. "I decided to explore my feminine side, and..." If I were playing that cleric, I'd leave the faith and every cleric spell I ever cast. My world is BUILT around character relationships with their deities for divine casters. That's WHY they grant these people spells! These changes are outrageous. NO Cleric of those levels would take this even remotely well. It will ruin years of backstory, especially for divine casters of any sort. How do they even JUSTIFY the existence of Dragonborn in the realms. I would rather have had a bunch of Shekinester worshipping Lizard Men than this. You seem pretty smart, I am sure you can fix things and make them work.;) Orrrrr you can complain about things endlessly. :weep: Which one seems like the better solution?
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 01:57 PM	You seem pretty smart, I am sure you can fix things and make them work.;) Orrrrr you can complain about things endlessly. :weep: Which one seems like the better solution? -While msa does complain a little too much sometimes (but, he's entitled to do so), in an ideal world, there shouldn't be any mess left over for us to clean up, you know?
Derren S. 12-31-07, 02:11 PM	If you're an elf, your entire family history can be wiped out. Why? The only thing which changes are the stats, not the lore. If you're a tiefling, your background can get summarily obliterated. I've already had players tell me "Mike, what am I going to do, I've played this character for 19 levels. Now he's going to vanish in a puff of logic?" Tieflings are a bit tricky but not impossible. It depends on how they will be officially implemented which we don't know. If you're a half dragon, you pretty much explode in a cloud of backstory. Why? Dragonborn are not Half-Dragons (in core) so there is no problem (unless in FR they are the same which is unlikely). God FORBID you should be a high level or epic level cleric! "Well, Yalyntha, Priestess of the Red Knight, who gave up your real name to join my church, I'm really Tempus!" BOINGGGGGGGGGGGG. Tempus appears in a chain bikini and a dress. "I decided to explore my feminine side, and..." If I were playing that cleric, I'd leave the faith and every cleric spell I ever cast. My world is BUILT around character relationships with their deities for divine casters. That's WHY they grant these people spells! These changes are outrageous. NO Cleric of those levels would take this even remotely well. It will ruin years of backstory, especially for divine casters of any sort. Are you actually aware whats will happen in the FR? Gods won't simply change without a reason, they will go down with a RSE. Nothing which affects the backstory of an already existing character. How do they even JUSTIFY the existence of Dragonborn in the realms. I would rather have had a bunch of Shekinester worshipping Lizard Men than this. When there are Saurials in the Realms why shouldn't there be Dragonborn? Besides it did rain dragon eggs recently. Maybe those weren't real dragons but Dragonborn? And Bahamut did also create Dragonborn for some time already in the FR so technically they already exist.
Rauric 12-31-07, 02:29 PM	-While msa does complain a little too much sometimes (but, he's entitled to do so), in an ideal world, there shouldn't be any mess left over for us to clean up, you know? The world is not ideal in any fashion though. Change happens. In Real World events, in Media, in everything. It often changes against our wishes. That is life. He is entitled to complain all he wants of course. I am just saying he says his players are very samrt, so he must be very smart. So he must be able to fix all of these problems in the blink of the eye if he really wanted to fix them. ;) Plus we DO NOT KNOW what they will do in the campaign book. We don't know how they will fit 4E rules into FR lore entirely. We only have a glimmer of what is to come. So his rants are unproven until we know some real, concrete,facts on the matter. I am just suggesting that anything that ya don't like can be fixed with some simple nogginpower. ;)
GreenKnight 12-31-07, 02:58 PM	He is entitled to complain all he wants of course. I am just saying he says his players are very samrt, so he must be very smart. So he must be able to fix all of these problems in the blink of the eye if he really wanted to fix them. ;) Plus we DO NOT KNOW what they will do in the campaign book. We don't know how they will fit 4E rules into FR lore entirely. We only have a glimmer of what is to come. So his rants are unproven until we know some real, concrete,facts on the matter. I am just suggesting that anything that ya don't like can be fixed with some simple nogginpower. ;) Agreed. There's complaining about things which you know for a fact will happen, and complaining about assumptions made without any factual basis. For instance, no Half-Dragons. Has anything been said to support the idea that Half-Dragons will cease to be? Just because there's a race called Dragonborn, it doesn't mean that Half-Dragons will cease to exist. Also, just because Tieflings have one backstory in the core setting, it doesn't mean that they'll have an identical backstory in the Realms. And yeah, we are talking about fixes that would take only a few moments to make. Is it really that difficult, for instance, to say that your Tiefling doesn't look like this... http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2263718Tiefling2.jpg ...but rather looks like this? http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2263717Tiefling.jpg
18DELTA 12-31-07, 03:35 PM	You've never heard of the Smartypants Elf Subrace? Could of sworn they were also called Sun Elves. Oh those are the stuck up Elves. :hides:
18DELTA 12-31-07, 03:44 PM	"Well, Yalyntha, Priestess of the Red Knight, who gave up your real name to join my church, I'm really Tempus!" BOINGGGGGGGGGGGG. Tempus appears in a chain bikini and a dress. "I decided to explore my feminine side, and..." :eek: :twitch: :doh: :gah: :looloo: :OMG! :yuck: :uh-huh: :banghead: :rofl: I could see it now hairy-legs, in-grown toenails. Its the chain bikini that gets me!!!;) :P :D
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 04:38 PM	The world is not ideal in any fashion though. Change happens. In Real World events, in Media, in everything. It often changes against our wishes. That is life. He is entitled to complain all he wants of course. I am just saying he says his players are very samrt, so he must be very smart. So he must be able to fix all of these problems in the blink of the eye if he really wanted to fix them. ;) -All of that not withstanding, the setting shouldn't be designated as 'completed', 'a finished product', 'done' when multiple, and seemingly massive continuity holes from 3e to 4e exist. While we are all smart enough make up our own explanations, we shouldn't have to. The rough edges are supposed to be smoothed before it's in our hands.
Dark Wizard 12-31-07, 05:14 PM	Something along the lines of those neat little poster defined "fallacies" often repeated in the rules oriented sections of these forums (I think mostly in the Character Optimization boards) can apply here. Just because you can Rule 0 everything does not make it right. A game is not balanced by the existence of Rule 0. Also, just because you decide to roleplay does not mean you have to take a shot in the toe in terms of rules. Mechanics should support the lore and vice versa to some extent. Of course the DM and the players can Rule 0 everything. That is their right and all, they must do what they can to make their games work for them. However, that they have to is just the group solving the problem and the company delivered a product that has marginal utility to that group. So just because a game group can fix the retcons and RSEs of the setting does not make those changes to the setting perfect or logical or justified or whatever. Just like many feel the setting should change in the way prescribed by WotC, one can ask, why couldn't people just Rule 0 FR to how it is now from the old FR. People don't like the street going both ways, but it does.
Derren S. 12-31-07, 05:21 PM	And what exactly would need to be rule 0ed? Considering the few information available I don't see how anyone would be able to know that especially as the thing about elves doesn't need to be rule 0ed at all (and that was/is the main focus of this discussion).
GothicDan 12-31-07, 10:15 PM	You would have to rule 0 the mechanical statistics for Eladrin to be the same as older iterations of the elves, unless you wanted to do one of the following: - Rewrite history: Yes, the mechanical powers of races' powers, abilities, etc. shape their history. Even small changes can have a huge effect on the course of history. - Retcon: No further explanation. Otherwise, things wouldn't make sense, historically speaking. But then, again, no one here seems to want to see the actual inferred possible changes that could happen to history from seemingly innocuous logical hiccups (like rules changes). This is why, I think, that when there ARE drastic rules changes from one edition to the next, new settings should be made. There's a reason why Eberron makes more sense in terms of 3E mechanics specifically, whereas it wouldn't make any sense at all in terms of 2E mechanics.
Rauric 01-01-08, 09:05 AM	-All of that not withstanding, the setting shouldn't be designated as 'completed', 'a finished product', 'done' when multiple, and seemingly massive continuity holes from 3e to 4e exist. While we are all smart enough make up our own explanations, we shouldn't have to. The rough edges are supposed to be smoothed before it's in our hands. That would be nice. Hopefully 4E FR campaign book will give us answers.
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 12:14 PM	-What is Rule 0? "The DM is always right"? That would be nice. Hopefully 4E FR campaign book will give us answers. -So far, from what we've been given, it seems that 4e is making things worse, not better. Mind you, a lot of these problems existed in 3e as well. Now, it looks like we're adding more, on top of those, without necessarily answering/fixing those.
18DELTA 01-01-08, 12:35 PM	-What is Rule 0? "The DM is always right"? -So far, from what we've been given, it seems that 4e is making things worse, not better. Mind you, a lot of these problems existed in 3e as well. Now, it looks like we're adding more, on top of those, without necessarily answering/fixing those. Nope it means that you are always right!!! ;) :P :D
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 12:36 PM	Nope it means that you are always right!!! ;) :P :D -Really? A rule that says Lord Karsus is always right. We should use this rule a lot more, then.
MarkusTay63 01-01-08, 09:42 PM	This - http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2263718Tiefling2.jpg looks a lot like this - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Pirate_Queen_Skarre.jpg Or even - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Succubus.JPG/180px-Succubus.JPG I think they are trying too hard for that 'video game' feel.
Dark Wizard 01-01-08, 10:37 PM	Video Games do it better.
18DELTA 01-01-08, 11:23 PM	-Really? A rule that says Lord Karsus is always right. We should use this rule a lot more, then. :cool:
Jiggawha 01-09-08, 04:31 PM	so queen Morwel is now what? Amlaruil is tulani ? but I like this, I see some positive possibilities ...
Lord Karsus 01-10-08, 08:11 PM	so queen Morwel is now what? -Dead, perhaps. Amlaruil is tulani ? -Let's just hope she makes it through everything unscathed.
Mula 01-11-08, 04:35 AM	Player: I play an elf GM: A sun, moon, wood, wild, star, avariel, aquatic, half, or snow elf?FIFY
Jiggawha 01-11-08, 11:17 AM	I wonder if the name ''eladrin'' came from Tolkien's ''eldar'', just like balor - balrog unless they're somehow merging these two races naming elves eladrin and erasing old eladrins is ridiculous
MarkusTay63 01-11-08, 04:56 PM	Next you're going to say the Seldarine sound like the Sindarin, or that Arvandor sounds like Valinor. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 07:33 PM	FIFY -Fify cent, yo? Next you're going to say the Seldarine sound like the Sindarin, or that Arvandor sounds like Valinor. ;) -Great Scott! :eek:
Alediran 01-12-08, 09:12 AM	-Great Scott! :eek: That's heavy.
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 03:50 PM	That's heavy. -It sure is. ;)
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 02:19 AM	I was thinking Groovy, but heavy is good... http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/smiley-faces-71.gif
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 03:07 AM	-Do you have a website where you get all of these things from?
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 09:00 PM	I just type "<subject> smiley" and google them. For that one, all I did was google "Hippy Smiley", and I found this page. (http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/smiley-faces-4.html) Then I find the one I want, right click on it, click on 'properties', and then copy the url. To post it, I just place that betwen the [img] tags, like usual. That way, you can use ANY smiley, from ANY forum. :D Its VERY liberating.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 09:45 PM	-Oh, I thought you had like a massive database or something.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 02:14 AM	No, I'm just big on illustrating my points. :D There are a few I like that I keep on my Photobucket page, for ease-of-use.
Mula 01-16-08, 11:11 AM	-Fify cent, yo?It's Fixed It For You.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 02:36 PM	-Makes sense.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 09:20 PM	http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/images/smilies/howyoudoin.gif For no other reason except that I can - http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/smiley-faces-74.gifhttp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/cthulhudance.gif http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/cantinabandf.gif http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/mocantina.gif I call it the "Bruce Cordell 4e premier party". Watch think? :D
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 10:57 PM	-Cthulu's got some good moves... -The Cantina smiley (Can that be considered a smiley?) is fundamentally incorrect, however, as Duros' mouths don't work as that shows. That looks like a dolphin when it smiles.
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 03:19 AM	Thats not the Mos Eisley Cantina, silly (at least, not anymore) Thats a kickin' party in the Far Realms, YO! They're excited about Cth... Pandorym's 'coming out' party for the Realms, is all! Everybody Polka! http://www.funfilesandsmiles.com/smilies/133.gif http://www.funfilesandsmiles.com/smileys2/dancingfruits0nm.gif
Alediran 01-17-08, 11:57 AM	-The Cantina smiley (Can that be considered a smiley?) is fundamentally incorrect, however, as Duros' mouths don't work as that shows. That looks like a dolphin when it smiles. Except the cantina players aren't Duros but Bit.
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 12:07 PM	Except the cantina players aren't Duros but Bit. -Bith, and no, I was not referring to that one, I was referring to the to the right of it.
Alediran 01-17-08, 01:33 PM	-Bith, and no, I was not referring to that one, I was referring to the to the right of it. I was hungry and the h was the last letter :P You're right, I hadn't seen that picture.
DarkSongKnight 01-17-08, 01:43 PM	Here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dusg/20080110) is an article that contains a piece of artwork showing what the 4e Eladrin may look like. Its the second picture down. I like how it shows the eladrin (sun elf?) using a spellbook, the floating runes, and the whole glowing effect. It seems very surreal. Although to be a sun elf, I believe he'd have to have green, gold, or dark eyes. Then again, maybe he has some moon elven ancestry. ;)
Alediran 01-17-08, 02:38 PM	I have it on Races & Classes. And it's "almost" like a Sun Elf looks like. The colors of it's clothes are like Blood Elves from WoD. Overal it's a good picture, but the all-red collors don't go that well.
Storm_Silverhand 01-17-08, 04:59 PM	Heya, I have it on Races & Classes. And it's "almost" like a Sun Elf looks like. The colors of it's clothes are like Blood Elves from WoD. Overal it's a good picture, but the all-red collors don't go that well. You mean WoW. :) WoD is something else entirely. :)
Lord Karsus 01-18-08, 04:43 AM	I was hungry and the h was the last letter :P You're right, I hadn't seen that picture. -I don't know...'.' is awfully far away from the 'h'. :P
Alediran 01-18-08, 01:14 PM	Heya, You mean WoW. :) WoD is something else entirely. :) Yes, I meant WoW, I was so sleepy at work when I made that post that I didn't read it after posting.
Storm_Silverhand 01-18-08, 06:09 PM	Heya, -I don't know...'.' is awfully far away from the 'h'. :P It was all that remained after he ate it... the lone crumb, if you will.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 06:49 PM	Here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dusg/20080110) is an article that contains a piece of artwork showing what the 4e Eladrin may look like. Its the second picture down. I like how it shows the eladrin (sun elf?) using a spellbook, the floating runes, and the whole glowing effect. It seems very surreal. Although to be a sun elf, I believe he'd have to have green, gold, or dark eyes. Then again, maybe he has some moon elven ancestry. ;) He's not a sun elf or moon elf, he's just a "core eladrin".:) That picture reminds me of GothicDan, btw.:D
Mula 01-18-08, 11:33 PM	I like this (http://www.wowwiki.com/images/4/4a/BloodElvesSots.jpg) portrayal of eladrin.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 12:46 AM	Heya, It was all that remained after he ate it... the lone crumb, if you will. -Perhaps. He must've been pretty hungry to do that...
Dark Wizard 01-19-08, 02:10 AM	Damn, everything about that latest picture of an eladrin screams Blood Elf from WoW. WotC really needs to develop its own look.
Dark Wizard 01-19-08, 02:30 AM	He's not a sun elf or moon elf, he's just a "core eladrin".:) That picture reminds me of GothicDan, btw.:D Maybe something like this: http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6751/eladriner3.jpg
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:44 PM	Or like one of these- I call this guy "Eladrin a'la Manshoon" http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Blood_elf2_by_ZivCG.jpg Now here's a cutey - http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs9/i/2006/030/2/d/Blood_Elf_by_Cowkitty.jpg Welcome to the World of w... Faerūn!!! :D
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:48 PM	Or like one of these- I call this guy "Eladrin a'la Manshoon" http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Blood_elf2_by_ZivCG.jpg -I call him 'Rock Lobster'. Seriously, does he not look like a crustacean?
Dark Wizard 01-19-08, 08:09 PM	-I call him 'Rock Lobster'. Seriously, does he not look like a crustacean? Crustacean? My favorite is this Crab clan warrior's armor: http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1305/hidadaizuyf0.jpg http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5779/hidadaizuwjt0.jpg
MarkusTay63 01-20-08, 01:51 AM	Ohhhhh... CRUSTY! :P
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 02:12 AM	-Stupid Legend of the Five Rings, ruining 3e Oriental Adventures...:ahem: -Well, eh, it was alright, and had a few concepts that I am using for my own setting, but I would have rather had Kara-Tur.
Dark Wizard 01-20-08, 11:39 PM	Funny how AEG made 'OA' concepts viable (enough) for them as a franchise and even MtG touched 'OA' topics with the Kamigawa expansion, but D&D still will not touch 'OA' again with a ten foot pole.
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 02:53 AM	Funny how AEG made 'OA' concepts viable (enough) for them as a franchise and even MtG touched 'OA' topics with the Kamigawa expansion, but D&D still will not touch 'OA' again with a ten foot pole. -Same reason, I guess, why TSR/WotC will never (or so they claimed) make another Maztica/Zakhara/Kara-Tur product again- they did not reach enough of an audience to justify costs and whatever.
Dark Wizard 01-21-08, 10:32 PM	-Same reason, I guess, why TSR/WotC will never (or so they claimed) make another Maztica/Zakhara/Kara-Tur product again- they did not reach enough of an audience to justify costs and whatever. Yes, that's the reason they state. It just seems like OA is like the touch of death or something for D&D, none of the iterations they have worked.