Monk Tank [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Monk Tank [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Duedaine
08-29-07, 12:13 PM The title pretty much says it all. I want to make a monk that can serve as a main fighter. If anyone has any ideas as to how this can be accomplished or other insights, please tell. Thanks
Lord Karsus
08-30-07, 04:04 PM -Monks, to begin with, are already pretty good frontline fighters. Things to boost their AC, such as Mage Armor, or Rings of Protection, are definitley a must, as Monks don't wear much armor.
Jagaer
08-30-07, 04:27 PM Any stat modifers for WIS I believe are also good, since they add to a monks AC ( the WIS bonus that is, if i remember right. I don't have my books in front of me right now)
_Jarlaxle_
08-31-07, 06:55 AM Depends on what else you want. If you fight weaponsless you have to boost strength also.
But if you wanna use 2 Kamas for example Dex is your favorite Ability and you should max it. It will raise your AB and your AC. If you want you can put some points in WIS too, but not to many. With 2 Kamas 12 Strength will be ok, you dont do very much damage unless you get some Kamas with additional Damage on them, but you will get a lot of attacks.

Dont forgett that you need 11 Levels of monk to fully benefit from Flurry of Blows with 3.5E. After that you can take some fighter (or maybe barbarian) levels to boost your BAB and HP more.

When you plan to take 2 Weapons and more than 20 Levels Monk/Fighter/Weapon Master can be a good combination...
Kid SixXx
08-31-07, 08:50 AM Depends on what else you want. If you fight weaponsless you have to boost strength also.

Or make very liberal use of Magic Fang spells and / or potions.
Sosthenes
08-31-07, 10:42 AM Don't get your hopes too high. Monks generally make rather bad tanks, as they neither have the hit points nor the AC to just stand there and take it. Mobility is their forte, so concentrating on that is generally preferable.

Having said that, there are a few options. There's a variant in the Unearthed Arcana book that drops the fast movement, but gives the monk DR. Combine that with Improved Grapple, and you might get a decent Sumo monk...
Get proficiency in a reach weapon, take Combat Reflexes, look at Karmic Strike and related feats.

Mix with tougher classes, especially fighter. In the FR, you're not as restricted as in the default setting...
_Jarlaxle_
08-31-07, 11:02 AM Nah AC isn't a Problem as a monk. Depending on you race you can have over 20 AC at Level 1. But the Problem than are your low Hitpoints so that you get killed by one or two lucky hits and you probably have a low Level progression because of that race.

But if you are behind the starting problems (maybe with the help of your group) your monk can become an awsome fighter in all circumstances :)
Sosthenes
08-31-07, 11:29 AM Monks are okay at lower levels, but tend to fall behind at the higher ones. There the difference in hit points is really noticeable, as is the lack of good magical boosters for the monk. Their ability to "tank" is really lacking, compared to a Knight with decent equipment or anything similar.
Nowadays, I'd recommend going Swordsage all the way. Not particularly better at tanking, but straight-forward damage-dealing won't be such a problem.

And "low level progression"? Are we assuming anything different from the normal LA mechanism?
Vladhslavh
08-31-07, 04:18 PM I believe that a monk with vow of poverty (Book of exalted deed) can become a decent "tank" at least until mid to average high levels.

But I strongly recommend you to take a look at the character optimization boards, they may be of greater help for you. ;)
Xaean
08-31-07, 08:51 PM Yes, VOP makes monks great warriors. And talking about the BoED, their is a nice feat called holy ki strike - that gives your unarmed attacks an additional 2d6 damage against evil enemies. And intuitive attack is good if you want to focus on wisdom as your primary ability.

Also remember that improved natural attack works for monks unarmed attacks. Just as if you were a size category larger - that's 4d8 damage for a high level monk.

Improved Toughness is a good feat to gain some additional hp - which a melee character with d8 hit dice certainly needs.

And by the way, what order should he belong too - because that dictates what multiclass combinations and prestige classes are aloud. If you haven't already decided, here are some suggestions for PrCs:

If you want to play a cleric monk, Sacred Fist is incredibly powerful, and for sorcerer/monks, such as members of the Dark Moon order, Enlightend Fist is powerful, there is also a feat that lets you increase AC with charisma instead of wisdom and multiclass as sorcerer freely. If your monk as nature loving character, he might become a Fist of the Forest, in which case a high constitution score increases your AC in addition to wisdom. Although it's only a 3-level PrC it will help you reach a BAP of 16 at level 20 - which gives you an additional attack. Sun Soul Monk from the Waterdeep book is a fine PrC for Faerunian monks too.

Of course what I've written here are only mechnanical considerations, which should always be of secondary importance compared to the character's background.
godbeepit
08-31-07, 09:03 PM Also, you may want to look at the CharOp boards. (Man, I hate myself every time I say that) They do come up with some interesting concepts, even if every thread breaks down into "You should just play a cleric or wizard. They're more powerful than monks." Also, a look at the Monk Handbook can provide some interesting ideas that most people would not normally think up.

Obviously, while looking through that you will be able to waive some of the restrictions on multiclassing because of the Faerunian monk establishments.
Duedaine
08-31-07, 11:38 PM Is the monk handbook a book or an online supplement/enhancement?
dragonheart
09-01-07, 12:25 PM another good tanking route is the monk -ranger combo wiht the ascetic ranger feat - it allows you to count yoru ranger levels as monk levels for open hand damage. take the the two weapon line and you get extra attacks for lots of damage. I have a monk 3/ranger 17 doing 7 attacks a round for 2d10 damage with each attack. You can probably also talk your DM into changing the ranger evasion to improved evasion if you reach it before the monk version. this also grants you access to the ranger spell list with thigns like Magic fang and barkskin to help improve hitting and AC. Add improved natural attack for even more damage and your going to do fairly well.
I haven't seen the Fist of the Forest PrC - where is it?
Vladhslavh
09-01-07, 01:32 PM I haven't seen the Fist of the Forest PrC - where is it?

Complete champion.
Calmar
09-01-07, 01:33 PM Take the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) feat, as mentioned above. Also get yourself a monk's belt as soon as you can. This item improves your natural attacks and your AC bonus as if you were 5 levels higher.
If you also have a high Dex bonus (which *I* would definitely recommend) your AC gets even better and you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to determine your attack bonus. Therefore even with a Str bonus of just +0 or +1 you make good damage, because you hit often -- and your high AC enables you to survive longer. :)

If I was to make a monk based just on the elite array, I'd say:
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.
MarkusTay63
09-01-07, 01:40 PM Also, both the Duelist and Swashbucler add defense to a Monk - if you are a member of the Sun Soul order it won't stop you from progressing as a Monk. There is a Feat somewhere that allows you to use a light weapon as a monk weapon, which would allow you to use the other abilities of those classes as well.

Perhaps take a single level of Swash first, then multi between Monk and Duelist, and add a few levels of Shou diciple down the road. If you could use a rapier with your Monk skills, you're talking some major-league damage with finesse and other feats.
Suin Bahhar
09-03-07, 03:24 PM A monk with some way of getting damage reduction can work as a tank. Take some levels of swordsage and add stonedragon maneuvers and stances. These can give damage reduction/adamentine (5/10/15). Maybe be a dwarf and add some levels of dwarven defender for some strength, extra hitpoints and ac in its defensive stance.
godbeepit
09-05-07, 08:52 PM Is the monk handbook a book or an online supplement/enhancement?

The Monk Handbook is compiled information on the monk class on the CharOp boards. They list all feats from all books that would be beneficial to a monk and then a lot of times they add in builds that are handy.

Also, at higher levels AC is too hard to boost for what it gives. Often, your money is better spent on alternate modes of defense such as concealment.
Duedaine
09-05-07, 09:00 PM Do monk weapons take penalties for using two of them? If they don't take penalties for using two fists, then it make sense that they don't...:confused:
godbeepit
09-05-07, 09:04 PM As part of a flurry, they do not take penalties. However, if the monk would be attempting to attack normally with two weapons, instead of using the flurry, he would take the normal penalties associated with two-weapon fighting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duedaine 08-29-07, 12:13 PM	The title pretty much says it all. I want to make a monk that can serve as a main fighter. If anyone has any ideas as to how this can be accomplished or other insights, please tell. Thanks
Lord Karsus 08-30-07, 04:04 PM	-Monks, to begin with, are already pretty good frontline fighters. Things to boost their AC, such as Mage Armor, or Rings of Protection, are definitley a must, as Monks don't wear much armor.
Jagaer 08-30-07, 04:27 PM	Any stat modifers for WIS I believe are also good, since they add to a monks AC ( the WIS bonus that is, if i remember right. I don't have my books in front of me right now)
_Jarlaxle_ 08-31-07, 06:55 AM	Depends on what else you want. If you fight weaponsless you have to boost strength also. But if you wanna use 2 Kamas for example Dex is your favorite Ability and you should max it. It will raise your AB and your AC. If you want you can put some points in WIS too, but not to many. With 2 Kamas 12 Strength will be ok, you dont do very much damage unless you get some Kamas with additional Damage on them, but you will get a lot of attacks. Dont forgett that you need 11 Levels of monk to fully benefit from Flurry of Blows with 3.5E. After that you can take some fighter (or maybe barbarian) levels to boost your BAB and HP more. When you plan to take 2 Weapons and more than 20 Levels Monk/Fighter/Weapon Master can be a good combination...
Kid SixXx 08-31-07, 08:50 AM	Depends on what else you want. If you fight weaponsless you have to boost strength also. Or make very liberal use of Magic Fang spells and / or potions.
Sosthenes 08-31-07, 10:42 AM	Don't get your hopes too high. Monks generally make rather bad tanks, as they neither have the hit points nor the AC to just stand there and take it. Mobility is their forte, so concentrating on that is generally preferable. Having said that, there are a few options. There's a variant in the Unearthed Arcana book that drops the fast movement, but gives the monk DR. Combine that with Improved Grapple, and you might get a decent Sumo monk... Get proficiency in a reach weapon, take Combat Reflexes, look at Karmic Strike and related feats. Mix with tougher classes, especially fighter. In the FR, you're not as restricted as in the default setting...
_Jarlaxle_ 08-31-07, 11:02 AM	Nah AC isn't a Problem as a monk. Depending on you race you can have over 20 AC at Level 1. But the Problem than are your low Hitpoints so that you get killed by one or two lucky hits and you probably have a low Level progression because of that race. But if you are behind the starting problems (maybe with the help of your group) your monk can become an awsome fighter in all circumstances :)
Sosthenes 08-31-07, 11:29 AM	Monks are okay at lower levels, but tend to fall behind at the higher ones. There the difference in hit points is really noticeable, as is the lack of good magical boosters for the monk. Their ability to "tank" is really lacking, compared to a Knight with decent equipment or anything similar. Nowadays, I'd recommend going Swordsage all the way. Not particularly better at tanking, but straight-forward damage-dealing won't be such a problem. And "low level progression"? Are we assuming anything different from the normal LA mechanism?
Vladhslavh 08-31-07, 04:18 PM	I believe that a monk with vow of poverty (Book of exalted deed) can become a decent "tank" at least until mid to average high levels. But I strongly recommend you to take a look at the character optimization boards, they may be of greater help for you. ;)
Xaean 08-31-07, 08:51 PM	Yes, VOP makes monks great warriors. And talking about the BoED, their is a nice feat called holy ki strike - that gives your unarmed attacks an additional 2d6 damage against evil enemies. And intuitive attack is good if you want to focus on wisdom as your primary ability. Also remember that improved natural attack works for monks unarmed attacks. Just as if you were a size category larger - that's 4d8 damage for a high level monk. Improved Toughness is a good feat to gain some additional hp - which a melee character with d8 hit dice certainly needs. And by the way, what order should he belong too - because that dictates what multiclass combinations and prestige classes are aloud. If you haven't already decided, here are some suggestions for PrCs: If you want to play a cleric monk, Sacred Fist is incredibly powerful, and for sorcerer/monks, such as members of the Dark Moon order, Enlightend Fist is powerful, there is also a feat that lets you increase AC with charisma instead of wisdom and multiclass as sorcerer freely. If your monk as nature loving character, he might become a Fist of the Forest, in which case a high constitution score increases your AC in addition to wisdom. Although it's only a 3-level PrC it will help you reach a BAP of 16 at level 20 - which gives you an additional attack. Sun Soul Monk from the Waterdeep book is a fine PrC for Faerunian monks too. Of course what I've written here are only mechnanical considerations, which should always be of secondary importance compared to the character's background.
godbeepit 08-31-07, 09:03 PM	Also, you may want to look at the CharOp boards. (Man, I hate myself every time I say that) They do come up with some interesting concepts, even if every thread breaks down into "You should just play a cleric or wizard. They're more powerful than monks." Also, a look at the Monk Handbook can provide some interesting ideas that most people would not normally think up. Obviously, while looking through that you will be able to waive some of the restrictions on multiclassing because of the Faerunian monk establishments.
Duedaine 08-31-07, 11:38 PM	Is the monk handbook a book or an online supplement/enhancement?
dragonheart 09-01-07, 12:25 PM	another good tanking route is the monk -ranger combo wiht the ascetic ranger feat - it allows you to count yoru ranger levels as monk levels for open hand damage. take the the two weapon line and you get extra attacks for lots of damage. I have a monk 3/ranger 17 doing 7 attacks a round for 2d10 damage with each attack. You can probably also talk your DM into changing the ranger evasion to improved evasion if you reach it before the monk version. this also grants you access to the ranger spell list with thigns like Magic fang and barkskin to help improve hitting and AC. Add improved natural attack for even more damage and your going to do fairly well. I haven't seen the Fist of the Forest PrC - where is it?
Vladhslavh 09-01-07, 01:32 PM	I haven't seen the Fist of the Forest PrC - where is it? Complete champion.
Calmar 09-01-07, 01:33 PM	Take the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) feat, as mentioned above. Also get yourself a monk's belt as soon as you can. This item improves your natural attacks and your AC bonus as if you were 5 levels higher. If you also have a high Dex bonus (which I would definitely recommend) your AC gets even better and you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to determine your attack bonus. Therefore even with a Str bonus of just +0 or +1 you make good damage, because you hit often -- and your high AC enables you to survive longer. :) If I was to make a monk based just on the elite array, I'd say: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.
MarkusTay63 09-01-07, 01:40 PM	Also, both the Duelist and Swashbucler add defense to a Monk - if you are a member of the Sun Soul order it won't stop you from progressing as a Monk. There is a Feat somewhere that allows you to use a light weapon as a monk weapon, which would allow you to use the other abilities of those classes as well. Perhaps take a single level of Swash first, then multi between Monk and Duelist, and add a few levels of Shou diciple down the road. If you could use a rapier with your Monk skills, you're talking some major-league damage with finesse and other feats.
Suin Bahhar 09-03-07, 03:24 PM	A monk with some way of getting damage reduction can work as a tank. Take some levels of swordsage and add stonedragon maneuvers and stances. These can give damage reduction/adamentine (5/10/15). Maybe be a dwarf and add some levels of dwarven defender for some strength, extra hitpoints and ac in its defensive stance.
godbeepit 09-05-07, 08:52 PM	Is the monk handbook a book or an online supplement/enhancement? The Monk Handbook is compiled information on the monk class on the CharOp boards. They list all feats from all books that would be beneficial to a monk and then a lot of times they add in builds that are handy. Also, at higher levels AC is too hard to boost for what it gives. Often, your money is better spent on alternate modes of defense such as concealment.
Duedaine 09-05-07, 09:00 PM	Do monk weapons take penalties for using two of them? If they don't take penalties for using two fists, then it make sense that they don't...:confused:
godbeepit 09-05-07, 09:04 PM	As part of a flurry, they do not take penalties. However, if the monk would be attempting to attack normally with two weapons, instead of using the flurry, he would take the normal penalties associated with two-weapon fighting.