Most Powerful Dragon Ever?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Most Powerful Dragon Ever?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Outlaw8888
04-12-07, 01:55 AM Alright this is Dungeons and Dragons...so dragons should be the most powerful enemies right?

The Dragon with the highest stats I have seen is Inferno...something like 1,400hp and an attack of +70

I think his stats were higher than Bahamuts were in Deities and Demigods...which doesn't make much sense

So...can any Dragon take down Inferno?
Green Elven Vampire
04-12-07, 02:49 AM Tiamat and Bahamut should have no problem turning Inferno into a cave tapestry. There is also this rather nasty Black Dragon who's name eludes me at the moment who is a VERY good challenge to Inferno.
Derren S.
04-12-07, 02:56 AM It depends on what you mean as power. If you mean pure stats then Inferno is the most powerfull dragon (even if build horribly). If you also include prestige and influence then Tchezzar who is after all nearly a deity.
And depending on how you rule how much "FR deity lore" applies to ascendants like Tchezzar (for example "can't be killed unless the enemy is a deity/sponsored by a deity") he might be able to kill Inferno even with inferior stats.
Lord Karsus
04-12-07, 09:15 AM - I suggest getting your hands on Dragons of Faerūn, if possible.
GothicDan
04-12-07, 11:40 AM I thought it was even stated in F&P that a deity could not be killed by a non-deity, or someone without direct deific aid?
Outlaw8888
04-12-07, 03:14 PM Tchezzar had the same CR but his stats were lower than Inferno

I'll check out Dragons of Faerun
Grandmaster_Kane
04-12-07, 03:54 PM correct me if im wrong but isnt there a level like 20 wizards great wverm red draco lich or something that has a cr of like 70
Derren S.
04-12-07, 04:27 PM I thought it was even stated in F&P that a deity could not be killed by a non-deity, or someone without direct deific aid?

The question is if you count Tchezzar already as deity or not.
GothicDan
04-12-07, 04:37 PM Does he have a DvR? I thought the class he had (Dragon Ascendent, was it?) gave you DvR 0 at level 10.
Derren S.
04-12-07, 04:49 PM The PRC give you all abilities of a DvR 0 deity and the fluff says that the dragon becomes a quasi deity

A 12th level dragon ascendant is actually a quasi-deity...
But the class does not give you an actual DvR, probably to keep it seperate from Deities&Demigods.
Lord Karsus
04-12-07, 06:07 PM I'll check out Dragons of Faerun

-There is also a free web-enhancement that is basically just a large list of Dragons.

correct me if im wrong but isnt there a level like 20 wizards great wverm red draco lich or something that has a cr of like 70

-Tchazzar and Mauzzkyl Jaezred are the two most powerful Dragons, both with a whopping CR 40.
Grandmaster_Kane
04-12-07, 08:18 PM -There is also a free web-enhancement that is basically just a large list of Dragons.

-Tchazzar and Mauzzkyl Jaezred are the two most powerful Dragons, both with a whopping CR 40.

Hmm ill have to check that out

i could have sworn there was one in the index of some dragon book with a cr of like 70
Lord Karsus
04-12-07, 08:26 PM Hmm ill have to check that out

i could have sworn there was one in the index of some dragon book with a cr of like 70

-Aha! I missed him. Daurgothoth, "The Creeping Doom", is a CR 50 Dracolich Wizard 20 / Archmage 5.
Grandmaster_Kane
04-12-07, 08:42 PM -Aha! I missed him. Daurgothoth, "The Creeping Doom", is a CR 50 Dracolich Wizard 20 / Archmage 5.

ha i knew it lol i was only off by 20 lol
GothicDan
04-12-07, 11:02 PM Dargothoth is hawt (in a 'cool' kind of way, that is).
Derren S.
04-13-07, 02:49 AM But he suffers from a very overinflated CR as his classes have almost no synergies.
Dark_beebles
04-13-07, 03:36 AM Tchazzar is dead I thought...When Tiamat Consumed him after or during the time of trouble. The information i am referring to is Located in the LEoR "Ancient Gods" Section..just after the PrC's If i remember correctly. All I know for certain is that Tiamat Consumed some Red Dragon that was close to becoming a god..and after that happened She ate him other then that...if the name is differant...its really spelled close to the dragon i am thinking about in the empires book.

And aint Mauzzkyl Jaezred Part of Nimors clan? Like his Grandfather or something along those lines?

And Derren...Dude anyone or rather anything with a Int over 20, and 25 levels in Wiz/Archmage is nasty
And with that the dragon can cast over 100 spells a day...From his Sorc spell list as well as this 25 levels in wizard...not even counting items, or just its base stats.
Derren S.
04-13-07, 03:44 AM Yet Dargothoth would be much more powerfull if it had sorcerer instead wizard levels as those would stack with its natural spellcasting.

And Tchezzar is back. Tiamat ressurected him as quasi chosen and 12th level dragon ascendant (See Dragons of Faerun).
Lord Karsus
04-13-07, 11:33 AM Tchazzar is dead I thought...

-Nah, he's back now, in a semi-confusing manner.

And aint Mauzzkyl Jaezred Part of Nimors clan? Like his Grandfather or something along those lines?

-Yes, indeed.
Mirtek
04-13-07, 12:09 PM But he suffers from a very overinflated CR as his classes have almost no synergies.
Also from complete lack of epic abilities. His CR is just flat out wrong, it was calculated at a time before the current rules were etablished (and even back then it was already wrong).

If we would calculate his CR not it would be somewhere between 38-40 (and even that would still be high for his useless class levels).
The_Shaman
04-13-07, 12:21 PM Aww, I want Tchazzar to be free again... :weep: He-y, that's an interesting idea... Anyone for a new cult?
Derren S.
04-13-07, 01:24 PM Who says that Tchezzar is currently not free? Tiamat doesn't controll him, more likely he likes being a quasi deity.

Also that Tchezzar does not have epic abilities is correct. The PRCs in the Draconomicon do not follow the normal epic advancment rules so when taking them you will get the listet BAB and not epic BAB etc.
See the FAQ for that.
GothicDan
04-13-07, 01:26 PM Yet Dargothoth would be much more powerfull if it had sorcerer instead wizard levels as those would stack with its natural spellcasting.

And it also wouldn't fit with the lore that is statted in the Cult of the Dragon, in which Dargothoth is stated as basically being a master of research, spell creation, metamagic, and the like... Which the sorcerer class isn't particularly good for. I'd take actual characterization of optimization any day.
Derren S.
04-13-07, 01:32 PM Considering that there was no sorcerer in the 2nd edition this is not surprising.
Do the sorcerer levels the Simbul has match her lore? Probably more then it would for Dargothot but I bet that there are quite a few things in the lore which would make the Simbul a wizard.

Also spell research is no exclusive domain for wizards. Sorcerers can do it equally well. and metamagic is the domain of sorcerers.

(I know that you will not agree that sorcerers are as good as wizards in research, yet wizards gain the fruits of their research when they have a levelup while sorcerers can learn "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study". In the end it is the same).
GothicDan
04-13-07, 03:24 PM The Simbul was known first and foremost for her spell battle power... Which the Sorcerer is somewhat fitting for, at least. Dargothoth has not a lick of Sorcerer about him (and in 2E, Wizard was just the mechanics - fluff-wise, you could be a Sorcerer OR a Wizard, whatever you wanted to call it).

And Wizards can research new spells at any point. It's in the PHB.
BrennonGoldeye
04-13-07, 04:42 PM and metamagic is the domain of sorcerers.

Hmm, not so much. They get it on the fly, but at full round cost. Wiz's get quicken and such, with no extension in casting time for the others. Note that many of the new feats allow transgression upon these basic differences. Blur baby blur. :)
Dark_beebles
04-13-07, 04:45 PM -Nah, he's back now, in a semi-confusing manner.

-Yes, indeed.

I believe I am a little behind the times then :confused:

Thnx for the info guys.
Derren S.
04-13-07, 05:14 PM And Wizards can research new spells at any point. It's in the PHB.

Actually it doesn't say that. It only mentions that wizards can perform independant spell research but it does not say when those spells become availiable. Considering that the 2 bonus spells per level represent spell research the only thing which makes sense is to replace one of those spells with the new created spells.
But if you desperatly want to give wizards an advantage and thus rule that wizards can get any spell at any time then yes, they are better at spell research.
GothicDan
04-13-07, 06:09 PM I've really never seen anyone interpret the Wizardly research rules in the way you're speaking of...

In the SRD, they are in fact listed as two completely different things. "Spells Gained at a New Level" is not listed along with "Independent Research."
Lord Karsus
04-13-07, 06:10 PM Who says that Tchezzar is currently not free? Tiamat doesn't controll him, more likely he likes being a quasi deity.

-Well, considering that he is a Chosen of Tiamat, one would think that she exerts considerable influence over what he does.
BrennonGoldeye
04-13-07, 08:14 PM He just doesn't advertise it as a bumpersticker.;)
Amryll
04-15-07, 05:08 PM Ashardalon. -shudder-
Willis_G
04-16-07, 12:25 PM Has enyone else noticed that Inferno's caster level for his Sorcerer spells and spell-like abilities are incorrect?

Inferno is a 61HD advanced Great Wyrm Red Dragon, which according to Epic Level Handbook is an increase of seven effective age catagories. This is reflected in his abilities, except that his caster level has been increased by one for each hit dice over 40, instead of two per effective age catagory.
King_Neckchopper
04-16-07, 01:14 PM Alright this is Dungeons and Dragons...so dragons should be the most powerful enemies right?

The Dragon with the highest stats I have seen is Inferno...something like 1,400hp and an attack of +70

I think his stats were higher than Bahamuts were in Deities and Demigods...which doesn't make much sense

So...can any Dragon take down Inferno?

They Mighty King Neckchopper can take this dragon down no problemo!

Let them make them remember! That this is ZION and WE ARE NOT AFRAID!!!!!!!!~ Morpheous
BrennonGoldeye
04-16-07, 08:54 PM Yes, there are dragons that could defeat Imvaer. Daurgothoth and Tchazzar both have the skill. DoF also tells us that both Force and Prismatic dragons dwell in the Dragon Eyrie. A wyrm force or old prismatic would be fatal. He would be classified as a truly Epic threat, no doubt.:)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Outlaw8888 04-12-07, 01:55 AM	Alright this is Dungeons and Dragons...so dragons should be the most powerful enemies right? The Dragon with the highest stats I have seen is Inferno...something like 1,400hp and an attack of +70 I think his stats were higher than Bahamuts were in Deities and Demigods...which doesn't make much sense So...can any Dragon take down Inferno?
Green Elven Vampire 04-12-07, 02:49 AM	Tiamat and Bahamut should have no problem turning Inferno into a cave tapestry. There is also this rather nasty Black Dragon who's name eludes me at the moment who is a VERY good challenge to Inferno.
Derren S. 04-12-07, 02:56 AM	It depends on what you mean as power. If you mean pure stats then Inferno is the most powerfull dragon (even if build horribly). If you also include prestige and influence then Tchezzar who is after all nearly a deity. And depending on how you rule how much "FR deity lore" applies to ascendants like Tchezzar (for example "can't be killed unless the enemy is a deity/sponsored by a deity") he might be able to kill Inferno even with inferior stats.
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 09:15 AM	- I suggest getting your hands on Dragons of Faerūn, if possible.
GothicDan 04-12-07, 11:40 AM	I thought it was even stated in F&P that a deity could not be killed by a non-deity, or someone without direct deific aid?
Outlaw8888 04-12-07, 03:14 PM	Tchezzar had the same CR but his stats were lower than Inferno I'll check out Dragons of Faerun
Grandmaster_Kane 04-12-07, 03:54 PM	correct me if im wrong but isnt there a level like 20 wizards great wverm red draco lich or something that has a cr of like 70
Derren S. 04-12-07, 04:27 PM	I thought it was even stated in F&P that a deity could not be killed by a non-deity, or someone without direct deific aid? The question is if you count Tchezzar already as deity or not.
GothicDan 04-12-07, 04:37 PM	Does he have a DvR? I thought the class he had (Dragon Ascendent, was it?) gave you DvR 0 at level 10.
Derren S. 04-12-07, 04:49 PM	The PRC give you all abilities of a DvR 0 deity and the fluff says that the dragon becomes a quasi deity A 12th level dragon ascendant is actually a quasi-deity... But the class does not give you an actual DvR, probably to keep it seperate from Deities&Demigods.
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 06:07 PM	I'll check out Dragons of Faerun -There is also a free web-enhancement that is basically just a large list of Dragons. correct me if im wrong but isnt there a level like 20 wizards great wverm red draco lich or something that has a cr of like 70 -Tchazzar and Mauzzkyl Jaezred are the two most powerful Dragons, both with a whopping CR 40.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-12-07, 08:18 PM	-There is also a free web-enhancement that is basically just a large list of Dragons. -Tchazzar and Mauzzkyl Jaezred are the two most powerful Dragons, both with a whopping CR 40. Hmm ill have to check that out i could have sworn there was one in the index of some dragon book with a cr of like 70
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 08:26 PM	Hmm ill have to check that out i could have sworn there was one in the index of some dragon book with a cr of like 70 -Aha! I missed him. Daurgothoth, "The Creeping Doom", is a CR 50 Dracolich Wizard 20 / Archmage 5.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-12-07, 08:42 PM	-Aha! I missed him. Daurgothoth, "The Creeping Doom", is a CR 50 Dracolich Wizard 20 / Archmage 5. ha i knew it lol i was only off by 20 lol
GothicDan 04-12-07, 11:02 PM	Dargothoth is hawt (in a 'cool' kind of way, that is).
Derren S. 04-13-07, 02:49 AM	But he suffers from a very overinflated CR as his classes have almost no synergies.
Dark_beebles 04-13-07, 03:36 AM	Tchazzar is dead I thought...When Tiamat Consumed him after or during the time of trouble. The information i am referring to is Located in the LEoR "Ancient Gods" Section..just after the PrC's If i remember correctly. All I know for certain is that Tiamat Consumed some Red Dragon that was close to becoming a god..and after that happened She ate him other then that...if the name is differant...its really spelled close to the dragon i am thinking about in the empires book. And aint Mauzzkyl Jaezred Part of Nimors clan? Like his Grandfather or something along those lines? And Derren...Dude anyone or rather anything with a Int over 20, and 25 levels in Wiz/Archmage is nasty And with that the dragon can cast over 100 spells a day...From his Sorc spell list as well as this 25 levels in wizard...not even counting items, or just its base stats.
Derren S. 04-13-07, 03:44 AM	Yet Dargothoth would be much more powerfull if it had sorcerer instead wizard levels as those would stack with its natural spellcasting. And Tchezzar is back. Tiamat ressurected him as quasi chosen and 12th level dragon ascendant (See Dragons of Faerun).
Lord Karsus 04-13-07, 11:33 AM	Tchazzar is dead I thought... -Nah, he's back now, in a semi-confusing manner. And aint Mauzzkyl Jaezred Part of Nimors clan? Like his Grandfather or something along those lines? -Yes, indeed.
Mirtek 04-13-07, 12:09 PM	But he suffers from a very overinflated CR as his classes have almost no synergies. Also from complete lack of epic abilities. His CR is just flat out wrong, it was calculated at a time before the current rules were etablished (and even back then it was already wrong). If we would calculate his CR not it would be somewhere between 38-40 (and even that would still be high for his useless class levels).
The_Shaman 04-13-07, 12:21 PM	Aww, I want Tchazzar to be free again... :weep: He-y, that's an interesting idea... Anyone for a new cult?
Derren S. 04-13-07, 01:24 PM	Who says that Tchezzar is currently not free? Tiamat doesn't controll him, more likely he likes being a quasi deity. Also that Tchezzar does not have epic abilities is correct. The PRCs in the Draconomicon do not follow the normal epic advancment rules so when taking them you will get the listet BAB and not epic BAB etc. See the FAQ for that.
GothicDan 04-13-07, 01:26 PM	Yet Dargothoth would be much more powerfull if it had sorcerer instead wizard levels as those would stack with its natural spellcasting. And it also wouldn't fit with the lore that is statted in the Cult of the Dragon, in which Dargothoth is stated as basically being a master of research, spell creation, metamagic, and the like... Which the sorcerer class isn't particularly good for. I'd take actual characterization of optimization any day.
Derren S. 04-13-07, 01:32 PM	Considering that there was no sorcerer in the 2nd edition this is not surprising. Do the sorcerer levels the Simbul has match her lore? Probably more then it would for Dargothot but I bet that there are quite a few things in the lore which would make the Simbul a wizard. Also spell research is no exclusive domain for wizards. Sorcerers can do it equally well. and metamagic is the domain of sorcerers. (I know that you will not agree that sorcerers are as good as wizards in research, yet wizards gain the fruits of their research when they have a levelup while sorcerers can learn "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study". In the end it is the same).
GothicDan 04-13-07, 03:24 PM	The Simbul was known first and foremost for her spell battle power... Which the Sorcerer is somewhat fitting for, at least. Dargothoth has not a lick of Sorcerer about him (and in 2E, Wizard was just the mechanics - fluff-wise, you could be a Sorcerer OR a Wizard, whatever you wanted to call it). And Wizards can research new spells at any point. It's in the PHB.
BrennonGoldeye 04-13-07, 04:42 PM	and metamagic is the domain of sorcerers. Hmm, not so much. They get it on the fly, but at full round cost. Wiz's get quicken and such, with no extension in casting time for the others. Note that many of the new feats allow transgression upon these basic differences. Blur baby blur. :)
Dark_beebles 04-13-07, 04:45 PM	-Nah, he's back now, in a semi-confusing manner. -Yes, indeed. I believe I am a little behind the times then :confused: Thnx for the info guys.
Derren S. 04-13-07, 05:14 PM	And Wizards can research new spells at any point. It's in the PHB. Actually it doesn't say that. It only mentions that wizards can perform independant spell research but it does not say when those spells become availiable. Considering that the 2 bonus spells per level represent spell research the only thing which makes sense is to replace one of those spells with the new created spells. But if you desperatly want to give wizards an advantage and thus rule that wizards can get any spell at any time then yes, they are better at spell research.
GothicDan 04-13-07, 06:09 PM	I've really never seen anyone interpret the Wizardly research rules in the way you're speaking of... In the SRD, they are in fact listed as two completely different things. "Spells Gained at a New Level" is not listed along with "Independent Research."
Lord Karsus 04-13-07, 06:10 PM	Who says that Tchezzar is currently not free? Tiamat doesn't controll him, more likely he likes being a quasi deity. -Well, considering that he is a Chosen of Tiamat, one would think that she exerts considerable influence over what he does.
BrennonGoldeye 04-13-07, 08:14 PM	He just doesn't advertise it as a bumpersticker.;)
Amryll 04-15-07, 05:08 PM	Ashardalon. -shudder-
Willis_G 04-16-07, 12:25 PM	Has enyone else noticed that Inferno's caster level for his Sorcerer spells and spell-like abilities are incorrect? Inferno is a 61HD advanced Great Wyrm Red Dragon, which according to Epic Level Handbook is an increase of seven effective age catagories. This is reflected in his abilities, except that his caster level has been increased by one for each hit dice over 40, instead of two per effective age catagory.
King_Neckchopper 04-16-07, 01:14 PM	Alright this is Dungeons and Dragons...so dragons should be the most powerful enemies right? The Dragon with the highest stats I have seen is Inferno...something like 1,400hp and an attack of +70 I think his stats were higher than Bahamuts were in Deities and Demigods...which doesn't make much sense So...can any Dragon take down Inferno? They Mighty King Neckchopper can take this dragon down no problemo! Let them make them remember! That this is ZION and WE ARE NOT AFRAID!!!!!!!!~ Morpheous
BrennonGoldeye 04-16-07, 08:54 PM	Yes, there are dragons that could defeat Imvaer. Daurgothoth and Tchazzar both have the skill. DoF also tells us that both Force and Prismatic dragons dwell in the Dragon Eyrie. A wyrm force or old prismatic would be fatal. He would be classified as a truly Epic threat, no doubt.:)