Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spartanmax09 03-01-07, 11:00 PM	Would you say a rogue level 9 with a level adjustment of 1 doing this for a full attack be overpowered this is if all the attacks hit + the enemy is flat footed 6 d10 + 12d4 + 6 d6 + 5d6 = possibly doing a Max of 164 ( i think )
Dark Wizard 03-01-07, 11:45 PM	What do those numbers mean? Which of the extra dice are from sneak attack, which from weapon/feats, which are from other sources? It's not overpowered if factors other than personal skills gives you the extra damage (factors like equipment given by the DM or spell assistance from the party caster). It's also not overpowered if the rest of the characters can do the same and all the monsters as well, then you're just in a game using higher numbers.
Khaelieth 03-02-07, 06:41 AM	And then the rogue got caught flat-footed and died horribly.
Spartanmax09 03-02-07, 08:37 AM	d10 for bow, d4 for enchant d6 for add on and d6 for sneak attack the 6 is my 6 attacks 12 is because i get 2d4 per hit and 5 for sneak attack
Kid SixXx 03-02-07, 10:02 AM	And then the rogue got caught flat-footed and died horribly. Or had no one to occupy the foe directly, so couldn't flank & got no SA bonus.
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 01:25 PM	No, broken is a Human 2 Rogue/ 5 Necromancer/ 1 Shadow Adept/ 4 Raumatheri battle mage/ 7 Magelord/ 1 assassin, With the Shade Template, improved Invis, the Feat to make True strike a Special ability usable once per round (sacrificing a 9th level slot), the feat to allow Special abilities to be quickened, and Arcane Manipulation. Cast haste for good measure, and obliterate your foes at will :P
BrianCritchley 03-02-07, 05:51 PM	in my experiance, rogues who use sneak attack in a broken fashion soon end up fighting undead. so if suddenly the villan in every game is a vampire mage with an iron golem bodyguard then yes your rogue is proably broken. that really IS a good way to judge if a char is broken, does every encounter aim to minimize your effectiveness? if so then the GM probly thinks your a bit broken
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 06:03 PM	in my experiance, rogues who use sneak attack in a broken fashion soon end up fighting undead. so if suddenly the villan in every game is a vampire mage with an iron golem bodyguard then yes your rogue is proably broken. that really IS a good way to judge if a char is broken, does every encounter aim to minimize your effectiveness? if so then the GM probly thinks your a bit broken Yeah, but now you can add an item to be able to backstab undead, so you can break your rogue right back on the DM :P
The_Shaman 03-02-07, 06:07 PM	Okay, you got me: where do all the numbers come from? Rogue lvl 9 will make 2 attacks per full attack, 3 with rapid shot. 6? Only with either an insane GMS or a splitting weapon (which you would hardly have the money for, if your DM accepts it) and rapid shot. Each attack will do: 1d10 (greatbow) + str modifier (composite) + enhancement bonus + 5d6. Unless you critical, you're doing something like 22-3 damage on average, maybe more if you have a flaming/frost/etc. weapon (I don't know what does 2d4 on an attack, really). However, since you can't flank with a bow, you can only do it when the enemy is flat-footed. At that level, a fighter can do 1d10+ str + 4 (weapon spec, weapon mastery)+ enhanceement and will have a much higher attack bonus (not to mention being 1-2 BAB away from getting a 3rd/4th attack. So yes, when the enemy is flat-footed, you do an average of 10 damage more. Great. Of course, you will hit much less often. I can't really call that overpowered. Decent, especially in some cases, but not overpowered.
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 06:33 PM	The best Guess for me is as follows: 3d8 ( Rapid Shot + Improved Rapid Shot)(What bow is doing d10?) + 3d4 ( 1d4 per arrow, with whataver the unamed special ability is) + 6d6 (If there is something like the holy ability on the bow) + 5d6 (Sneak attack within 30') So Min 17, Max 92 If all bonuses allowed, or against no evil, non flanked foe Min 6, max 36...
Spartanmax09 03-02-07, 06:53 PM	Great bow is doing a d10
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 07:52 PM	Great bow is doing a d10 Ok, so 3d10, not 3d8....Making Min/Mx totals of 17/98 and 6/42
Critalondel 03-03-07, 04:22 AM	Great bow is doing a d10 Why don't you do us a favor, slow down, take a deep breath, type slowly, and explain in exacting detail to everyone exactly where these bonuses come from? How do you get so many attacks? What "enchant" gives the d4? What "add on" gives you the d6? What 2d4 per hit are you talking about? Etc, etc. Show your base attack bonus, your total enchantment modifiers, list the bow's special abilities and your appropriate feats, all very specifically as if we were GMing and you were introducing this character to a new game, okay? Right now you're just waltzing in and rattling off a dizzying array of numbers in half-legible internet-speak, and asking what we think.
Kouk 03-03-07, 09:20 AM	Why don't you do us a favor, slow down, take a deep breath, type slowly, and explain in exacting detail to everyone exactly where these bonuses come from? How do you get so many attacks? What "enchant" gives the d4? What "add on" gives you the d6? What 2d4 per hit are you talking about? Etc, etc. Show your base attack bonus, your total enchantment modifiers, list the bow's special abilities and your appropriate feats, all very specifically as if we were GMing and you were introducing this character to a new game, okay? Right now you're just waltzing in and rattling off a dizzying array of numbers in half-legible internet-speak, and asking what we think. Yes, I think most of us have no idea what all the dice mean. Also, I don't want to go through all my books and theorize about it. Please do explain each aspect of your attacks and your character.
Spartanmax09 03-03-07, 06:18 PM	alright im going to try to explain everything, this is my new updated attacks and this is all of it 2 base attacks +Rapid shot +Many shot that for me gives me 10 arrows shot for a FULL attack full attack = 10 shots standard = 5 shots 1 shot = 3 arrows + 2 (Many shot) +1 (Rapid) alright now for damage 10 d10 4 d10 = 2 base attack plus 2 many shot 4 d10 = 2 base attack plus 2 many shot 2 d10 = 2 rapid shots 20 d4 - Explosive enchant 2 d4 per arrow 2 x 10 arrows = 20 arrows 10 d6 - lightning arrows 1 d6 per arrow 5 d6 - Sneak Attack
Calmar 03-03-07, 06:37 PM	As far as I am informed, you cannot use Rapid Shot and Manyshot in the same round as Rapid Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rapidShot) itself requires a full round action to be used.
The_Shaman 03-03-07, 08:52 PM	See above. Also, Manyshot (hence GMS) requires a standard action; hence you can not use it in a round that you've made more than a move action.
boggler65 03-03-07, 11:07 PM	Level Adjustment +1... what is giving you the LA? Why is your rogue proficient with a greatbow? As far as I know you're not an Elf, because the only land elves with an LA are Avariel, and Drow, both are +3. So did you spend a feat on weapon proficiency ... greatbow? Ok... I have no idea, however, here is the maximum amount of damage that you ought to be able to do based on what you've listed above. With rapid shot you could make 3 attacks in a round at +4/+4/-1 assuming the use of your explosive arrows; you could potentially do no damage at all. The maximum that you could do (keeping in mind that you didn't give us your strength score, enchantment bonus to the actual bow etc.) 3d10 (bow)+6d4(explosive arrows)+5d6(sneak attack); 84 damage (this assumes no critical hits have been made). As far as I can remember an enemy is only considered flat footed for the first attack made against it that round meaning that more often than not you would not be adding your sneak attack damage, since a fighter would probably be attacking before you. Using manyshot you could attack with up to four arrows with the bonuses as follows; +2/-3 therefore 4d10(bow)+8d4(arrows)+5d6(sneak attack) maximum damage 102. In both cases the enemies that a 9th level rogue would be fighting would not likely be hit by more than half the attacks. Therefore uhh yeah your rogue is a bit powerful, but often would simply be wasting valuable enchanted arrows. If your GM has given you access to enough of these powerful enchanted items that you can simply use them with impunity you need to be a good player and tell him that you can't reasonably afford or have found that many. An explosive or lightning arrow shouldn't just grow on trees for you to waste with attacks like this. Since most CR 10 monsters have more than enough hit points to survive even the maximum amount of damage you can possibly do without making a critical attack and would most likely not be hit by even half of your attacks I don't personally think you're character is too powerful. I mean bottom line the actualy likelihood of you doing all that damage in a single round is about 1 in a billion.
Kouk 03-04-07, 02:59 AM	The problems I see are that 1: you are using Manyshot with Rapidshot, as stated rapidshot is a full round and won't work with manyshot. 2: Manyshot is a Standard Action, not an Attack Action. You can only use Manyshot once a round, for a total of 2 arrows + 1 for every 5 points BAB over 6. Only one of the arrows can give sneak attack, and only one can do critical damage. These following calculations assume you have no attack bonuses beyond your BAB for simplicity. You can apply the bonuses after: As a level 9 rogue, you by default have a full attack of 2 attacks at +6/+1. Total of 2 arrows fired per round. If you were to use Manyshot, you would still only be able to take 2 shots a round, though at +2/-3. The benefit would be that you could also take a move action while using the Manyshot. Only one arrow could get sneak damage and one critical damage(this could be the same arrow). Total of 2 arrows fired per round. If you use Rapidshot, you must use a Full Attack action to get a single extra shot at your highest attack bonus but all attacks take -2. This is basically like a non-scaling flurry of blows for ranged weapons. You would have base attacks of +4/+4/-1 using Rapidshot. All arrows could get criticals. All arrows can do sneak damage, if you somehow can count as flanking your opponent with a bow, or he is helpless/flat footed. Total of 3 arrows fired per round. I am not familiar with the explosive enchantment, but you have been shooting a lot more arrows than you should have been able to. Edit: Added flat footed to when your rapidshot could get sneak attack damages.
johnkretzer 03-04-07, 02:59 AM	As far as I can remember an enemy is only considered flat footed for the first attack made against it that round meaning that more often than not you would not be adding your sneak attack damage, since a fighter would probably be attacking before you. No a target is flat footed till he goes. All attacks against him would be sneak attacks. Also why would a fighter go before a rogue? But yes it is broken because you are not following the rules of Manyshot and Rapid Shot. Also the target gets a Ref. save vs the explosive damage.
Kouk 03-04-07, 03:27 AM	To get Manyshot takes Rapidshot which takes Point-blank Shot, and using a greatbow takes an exotic weapon proficiency feat, so all your feats are accounted for right?
Spartanmax09 03-04-07, 04:16 PM	first of all, i have a LA +1 because i am a Tiefling yes all of my feats are accounts for because i am level 10 and took a feat instead of a special ability 2nd i usually go first because of my high dex added for my initiative.... why would a fighter go before me.... 3rd....let me get this straight....Many shot shoots 2 arrows at the same time, but with one AR, but they would deal different damage, 2 d10 4th since i have 2 BAB does that not mean i have 4 attacks per round because 1 for a standard action for both BAB and then again for a FULL round? 5th it says Many shot is a standard action....it never says anything about only being able to use it once a round, it also does not say about not being able to use rapid shot after it
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 04:28 PM	A full round attack takes up the entire round, you don't have a standard action left to make attacks using Manyshot after you use Rapid Shot.
Spartanmax09 03-04-07, 04:34 PM	you use rapid shot after Manyshot at the end of your round....read it in the PH
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 04:53 PM	Okay, you got me, where does it say that in the PHB?
Spartanmax09 03-04-07, 04:59 PM	read the feat rapid shot, it says it goes at the end of your round
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 05:10 PM	I think you need to reread the feat yourself. I'm staring at the Rapid Shot feat entry in the 3.5e PHB and it says no such thing. Here is the full text: Rapid Shot [General] You can use ranged weapons with exceptional speed. Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot. Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat. Special: A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Rapid Shot, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
dragonheart 03-04-07, 05:44 PM	Also please remember that with feats like rapid shot and many shot if one is required for the other then the feats overlap not stack so you get the better feat not both.
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 06:08 PM	I'm pretty sure you can still use Rapid shot if you have Manyshot, just not both at once. Rapid shot is a full round attack, Manyshot is a standard action. There is an improvement feat for each of them.
Zanan 03-04-07, 06:35 PM	Main FAQ 19.07. 2006 (p. 20) has a sample which clarifies the usage of Manyshot and Rapid Shot: Question: One of the players in a campaign that I run took the Manyshot feat from the Epic Level Handbook. His character gets three attacks if he takes the full attack action, from a base attack bonus of +6/+1 and the Rapid Shot feat. He claims that with Manyshot he can fire six arrows as a fullround action. I say he can’t, since the feat applies only to standard actions. I think that the feat allows him to fire two shots during a standard action as opposed to the usual single shot that is allowed. Does Manyshot apply to full attack as well as standard actions? I would greatly appreciate it if you could shed some light on the situation. Reply: You’re right about Manyshot. It allows the character to shoot two or more arrows as a standard action. It does not allow the character to fire two or more arrows in place of a single attack. Standard actions can’t be combined with full attacks, nor are they part of a full attack. The example character has a base attack bonus of +6; with the Rapid Shot and Manyshot feats, the character has the following options: • Fire one arrow as a standard action (at +6). • Fire two arrows as a standard action (at +2—the second printing of the Epic Level Handbook says the penalty for Manyshot is –4, not –2 as stated in the first printing). • Fire two arrows as a full-round action (+6/+1). • Fire three arrows as a full-round action (+4/+4/–1, with Rapid Shot)
Critalondel 03-06-07, 02:18 AM	Spartanmax09 got awful quiet all of a sudden. ;) And for the record, people often assume a Fighter will go before most other characters because Fighters sleep soundly every night on a soft, comfortable, mattress made of feats, while everyone else scrapes by with one every three levels. That means Fighters can generally afford to toss a feat at something like Improved Initiative, which will generally more than make up for a Rogue's (for instance) higher than average Dex bonus. I think there's just a misunderstanding about how the feats involved work. Someone thought he got a hojillion shots a round instead of, y'know, three, and it led to some hard to believe damage output. It's still an impressive (if overly specialized) sounding character, and all that, but not nearly as bad as Spartanmax09's original posts (with their lack of clarity) made it sound.
boggler65 03-06-07, 07:30 PM	I usually just take the fact that fighters go first as common sense. I mean sure you may fire off a few arrows, or spells, but tactically you'd want to wait for that until your fighters had already begun to move into a position where they could prevent your rogues/wizards etc frm getting hammered. In my games players use strategy and work together to overcome combat enconters, they don't hold thier fighters back because thier rogue can so just as much damage but from a range.
Kouk 03-08-07, 03:37 AM	There is confusion on Standard Actions and Full Round Actions. The actions you can take in a round are: 1 Full Round Action OR 1 Standard Action AND 1 Move Action A full round action, which is what a full attack is, would take up your entire turn with the exception that you could take a single 5 foot step. A Standard Action can't be used in the same round as a Full Round action.
Tevin Kevlak 03-09-07, 02:09 AM	No, you're not overpowered, you're just using a confused version of the rules that is allowing your character to do things he cannot do. In a round a character has a few options he can do, he can take a full round action (something that takes the whole round to do such as casting a Summon Monster spell or making more than 1 attack due to a high base attack bonus or using a feat such as Rapid Shot), or he can take 1 move action (a move action is moving up to your characters base land speed, getting up from the prone position, drawing a weapon etc.) and a standard action (a standard action can be a number of things like drinking a potion, casting a Magic Missile spell or using Manyshot) or he can take 2 move actions. All abilities from feats, or classes, or spells will take one of these actions (or it will take a free action which can be done a number of times per round like speaking a command word to activate a magic item). Check out what feats and abilities you have and see what types of actions they take and you'll see that the actions you've described above aren't possible.
Tevin Kevlak 03-09-07, 02:16 AM	I usually just take the fact that fighters go first as common sense. I mean sure you may fire off a few arrows, or spells, but tactically you'd want to wait for that until your fighters had already begun to move into a position where they could prevent your rogues/wizards etc frm getting hammered. In my games players use strategy and work together to overcome combat enconters, they don't hold thier fighters back because thier rogue can so just as much damage but from a range. That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, if I happen to roll a higher initiative than the fighter and get to act early on, when enemies are denied their dex bonus to A.C. why would I hold my attacks, possibly losing my chance to deal ranged sneak attack damage in the only opportunity I'd have to deal ranged sneak attack damage the entire encounter without using items that grant invisibility or taking full-round actions to try and hide, when I could just shoot an arrow, apply sneak attack damage, and then move behind the fighter? I don't see how not having the fighter act first is bad group tactics...