Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mecha Zero 05-27-07, 09:41 PM	I have a player who would like to play a Artificer in the FRCS. What would be a good group/god/guild to make them an affiliation of? Short of maybe scraping the Elemental Binding feat... Or at least makeing it us something other then useing dragonshards. Thanks for reading this, and any help would be appreciated.:confused:
GothicDan 05-27-07, 09:45 PM	Artificers focus on magical item creation, when it comes down to it. You could make them a renegade or secretive faction of Thay (Wizard/Red Wizards/Artificers). The other possibilities that make the most sense to me are Azuth or Mystra. Gond really doesn't work, because he's not the god of creating magical items, per se, so much as tinkering and technology. They could also have a presence amongst the Imaskari (their title was 'The Artificers'; they were known for creating automatons and portal magic).
Dielzen 05-27-07, 10:26 PM	Finder Wyvernspur is also an excellent option, his portfolio dealing with renewal. What's more renewal than recycling magic items?
GothicDan 05-27-07, 10:42 PM	Artificers don't recycle the magical items. And it's more renewal of life (having inherited it, in a way, from Moander, the god of rot and decay of life, plants in particular).
Burningspear 05-27-07, 10:55 PM	Or: Vremyonni, aka "the Old Ones", Male artificers from Rashemen. not all ideas have to come form ancient settings or such. they can easily be from a current country :plotting:
GothicDan 05-27-07, 10:57 PM	Mind you, I wouldn't include Artificers at all. I actually would never use my suggestions for various reasons (nor the Vremyoni, since they were also described ALL as extremely powerful wizards who not only do magical item research, but spell research). I don't think Artificers are appropriate in Faerun. But I'm just trying to be helpful.
Dielzen 05-27-07, 11:21 PM	Artificers don't recycle the magical items. And it's more renewal of life (having inherited it, in a way, from Moander, the god of rot and decay of life, plants in particular). In a way it is recycle, as they're destroying an item, and using the XP required to make it to create another item. In essence they're recycling the magic of experince (granted an ambigiuous concept at best). Also, Finder deals with the "transformation of art" (according to Powers&Pantheons)....magic is "The Art." Also, another excerpt from said book "Finder works not only to spread his songs....but to encourage all artists and prod them to grow by changing, transforming, and recreating their medium."
GothicDan 05-27-07, 11:46 PM	Also, Finder deals with the "transformation of art" (according to Powers&Pantheons)....magic is "The Art." I guess you could make that connection. I wouldn't, because the Art is not the same as art. We don't call Wizards "Artists." There is beauty in magic, sure, and art, but it's also part science. You COULD pick Finder, but given where he's gotten his powers, and the fact that he's the "transformation of art" not "THE Art," if I was a DM, I'd probably not allow it. By the same token, you could say Sune (beauty in art) could make a good Artificer deity... I just think it's stretching things a little too far. But, hey, it's up to the OP. :)
GothWulf 05-28-07, 12:07 AM	How about Selune, the Everchanging one Herself? She's on good terms with Mystra <and Gond doesn't have a problem with Her, if Im remembering right>.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 12:17 AM	Waukeen would actually be really cool, too.
Valgard 05-28-07, 07:56 AM	I agree with Dan. One of my worst errors was to let a player take an artificer. When a dragon was appearing "I cast Weapon Augmentation to get the Dragon bane special ability", when a demon was appearing "I cast the Weapon Augmentation to get the holy and outsider (evil) bane special abilities" so you can get an idea.
Alac Luin 05-28-07, 10:10 AM	I agree with Dan. One of my worst errors was to let a player take an artificer. When a dragon was appearing "I cast Weapon Augmentation to get the Dragon bane special ability", when a demon was appearing "I cast the Weapon Augmentation to get the holy and outsider (evil) bane special abilities" so you can get an idea. If you see this as an issue, you have every right to not allow this series of infusions (think spells). Personally, I don't see it as that bad, they can only use it so many times per day. I'd say it's similar to the Energy Substitution feats, knowing the weakness of a foe and exploiting it. I'll admit, I haven't had this issue in any game I have ran, so it may be worse then I make it sound. When I do have an Artificer in my games I will keep Valgard's experience in mind. I'll either disallow these, disallow the bane quality, or play with monster types so to minimize the bane quality. This almost makes it look like the Bane quality is undervalued at +1 more then anything else. For the OP, forget the "dragonshards" altogether. In Eberron, dragonshards were intended to be required in the creation of EVERY magic item. Change it to gem of your choice of equal value. One option would be Chardalyn (from N: EoM), the use of these brittle stones would make elemental binding rather dangerous, and finding large enough specimens to use could be difficult. Personally, I'd not use elemental binding in Faerun as I don't see where this would be appropriate.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:21 PM	I'd say it's similar to the Energy Substitution feats, knowing the weakness of a foe and exploiting it. But that's only one type of energy you can pick, and it's permanent once chosen.
Alac Luin 05-28-07, 06:52 PM	But that's only one type of energy you can pick, and it's permanent once chosen. Really? I thought it was a little more flexible. I can't find my MoF so I'll just take your word for it. It does sound reasonable for a feat. My point was, more to the fact Weapon Augmentation is not a class feature, it is more like a spell. That spell (actually called infusion) does not need to be accepted. Issues can arise anytime you take a spell out of one setting and placing it another. Magic Weapon is already on the "infusion list" so it's not really necessary. Or just disallow the Bane quality from being used, I can see that becoming an issue with that "spell/infusion" regardless of setting. In other words, I am listening to what Valgard said, it's a valid point, pesky issue and available by the RAW as best as I can tell. I'll be house-ruling something (Bane considered +3 for this "spell" perhaps) This is hardly a "Artificers" are pointless fault, at least in my mind, it is an exploitable loop-hole the occur in the game.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:55 PM	I'm referring more to the thematic appropriateness of Faerun, myself, not so much the mechanics of the class. Mechanics can always be tweaked. Theme is more important to me.
Alac Luin 05-28-07, 07:38 PM	I'm referring more to the thematic appropriateness of Faerun, myself, not so much the mechanics of the class. Mechanics can always be tweaked. Theme is more important to me. We've had this discussion before, and I was flabbergasted to see your earlier post. :) Others have made connections to Immiscari, it is also known that some of the magic traditions of Immiscari made it to Rasheman. Yes, all those that carry the title Vremyonni are powerful spellcsters, but is illogical to think that every male that lives with them is a powerful spellcaster. That 10 year old kid that just got tested for magic ability is automatically a 16th level Wizard because he moved away from home? Anyway, lets say in years past, a few individuals left the Rasheman to find their own way, while staying loyal to thier homeland. These Artificers formed a loose alliance, watching the outside lands they now lived in. They called themselves the "Bricksmen", as many of them worked as engineers, and they also believed they were building the primary wall of defense of Rashiman. Over the years, the organization has grown little, due to the tradition of one master and typically only one apprentice to the craft. ("Bricksmen" is an established organization in the Realms, but there is nothing official about them, so I used this in the above non-canon idea.) On another hand, I still don't see why Artificers really need to be connected to an "organization". Whatever happened to adventurers starting as individuals?
GothicDan 05-28-07, 09:34 PM	Yes, all those that carry the title Vremyonni are powerful spellcsters, but is illogical to think that every male that lives with them is a powerful spellcaster. That 10 year old kid that just got tested for magic ability is automatically a 16th level Wizard because he moved away from home? Oddly enough, according to 2E Spellbound, any Vremyoni encountered outside of their caves will be an old man (60-70's+) of at least 16th level. Obviously the Witches don't let the young ones out, at all. Something like the addition of Artificers to your standard Faerunian setting would be huge. I think, at this point, the Red Wizards would exterminate them at all costs.
Alac Luin 05-28-07, 11:16 PM	Oddly enough, according to 2E Spellbound, any Vremyoni encountered outside of their caves will be an old man (60-70's+) of at least 16th level. Obviously the Witches don't let the young ones out, at all. More the reason for Artificers from thier ranks to not be well known;) Or to want to escape and become adventurers. ;) Something like the addition of Artificers to your standard Faerunian setting would be huge. I think, at this point, the Red Wizards would exterminate them at all costs. I agree with this completely if they are added wholesale into the setting. Adding a "House Canith" to Faerun would be huge. House Canith is the International Corporate Monopoly that is in control of the majority of Artificers in Eberron. I feel that the Artificer would work best in small numbers, loose affiliations at best. An individual Artificer would have little or no significant effect on a local magic item trade, any more then a single trade wizard. If one does not like trade wizards, then yes, the Artificer is more of a bad thing.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 11:29 PM	If one does not like trade wizards, then yes, the Artificer is more of a bad thing. More importantly... I wouldn't have any more than one secret group of them active. Faerun would be a very different place if Artificers had ever grown to prominence in recent history, magically, culturally, and economically. In Faerun, magic is not seen as scientifically as it's seen in Eberron, where the Artificer "feels" better (to me).
Alac Luin 05-29-07, 12:06 AM	I agree with this, one "Artificer organization" max. I would expand it with limited "individuals" or few members in larger organizations, treated as individuals. I really would personally push the taught by individual master, only apprentice route myself. Master ends up dead, apprentice on his own wondering who killed the teacher (in fact it was a red wizard looking for the teachers secrets, only written in a tome in the apprentice's rucksack). Sure it's an overused adventurer theme, but it works for me. :)
sleyvas 05-30-07, 09:19 AM	I agree that artificers would make great Vremyonni, but as a subset of the main... possibly whose numbers don't even stretch beyond a score of them. I've always liked the idea that not all Rashemi witches are the same (some may be spirit shamans, favored souls, druids, clerics of one of their three main goddesses... or possibly with some rules modifications a cleric serving all 3. I can see others that are wizards, sorcerors, warlocks in service to faerie, warmages, and possibly even wu-jen). The vremyonni should be just as mysterious to pin down what all they know as well. They would make perfect artificers, wizards, and even archivists.
MattBlacke 06-05-07, 12:33 AM	Well, Mystra does love those who make new magic items, blesing a few with the ability to create magical items and disseminate them would be in line with her dogma. The Thayans would indeed hate such people, and seek to control/eliminate them. Perhaps the Artificer is the 'new' Mystra's response to Thay's gambit of economic conquest? Just a couple of thoughts. Gond, though techincally a tinkerer of things, may work themewise too. Maybe Artificers don't use the Weave, they get their infusion straight from Gond?
GothicDan 06-05-07, 12:39 AM	Even Gond has to use the Weave while in Realmspace, though.
Alac Luin 06-05-07, 08:24 PM	Really, Artificers don't really follow Gond's Dogma enough to really fit in as a church/deity sponsored organization. I do believe Gond can be an appropriate patron deity for an individual Artificer, just as an expert craftsman can take Gond as a patron. I'll also agree with what Dan said, even the deities cannot bypass the Weave on Toril. (possibly the shadow weave, but Shar doesn't really feel right to sponsor Artificers as a whole).