Native Outsider help!?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Native Outsider help!?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Amoris Dendidorm
06-29-07, 07:13 AM Can someone help me?
While building a character with the native outsider discriptor and a level adjustment of 1 (aasimar, genasi, tiefling etc.) does it get the outsider traits (D8 HP, +2 to all saves, +1 BAB, 8 + int. mod. skill points)?
And if not why not?
The aasmar and tiefling from the MM 3.5 do not heve these traits in their stats, can someone please explain!?!

Mighty Thanks!
Adimarchus
06-29-07, 08:03 AM Those outsider features you have just described apply only to racial outsider HD and not to hit dice gained through classes (which is what a tiefling would advance with), a Tiefling has no racial hit dice and so will not benefit from them. They are for things like demons and devils who have lots of HD that are not class HD. I'm not sure but I think that any creature with the Outsider type will benefit from the other traits described in the Monster Manual (darkvision, weapon proficiency) though the (native) subtype removes some of these such as the need to breathe and eat. I'm not positive on this however.

On a side note: I have always wondered why gensai have the outsider and not elemental type.
Valgard
06-29-07, 09:04 AM Those outsider features you have just described apply only to racial outsider HD and not to hit dice gained through classes (which is what a tiefling would advance with), a Tiefling has no racial hit dice and so will not benefit from them. They are for things like demons and devils who have lots of HD that are not class HD. I'm not sure but I think that any creature with the Outsider type will benefit from the other traits described in the Monster Manual (darkvision, weapon proficiency) though the (native) subtype removes some of these such as the need to breathe and eat. I'm not positive on this however.

On a side note: I have always wondered why gensai have the outsider and not elemental type.You are right, those planetouched do not have racial Hit Dice and so they do not use the advancement rules for outsiders. Those rules listed in the Monster Manual show how to handle racial or monstrous HD as any other class, with their BAB, saves, proficiencies or any other feature they may have.

The reason why genasi (not gensai) are outsiders and not elementals is the same as why genies are outsiders and not elementals. Elementals, as the Monster Manual and the SRD say, are creatures made of one of the basic elements or a combination of those so, for example, a fire elemental is an elemental because it's fully made of fire, it has no internal organs, nor brain nor heart, it is all fire. That's why they are immune to sneak attacks and critical hits, it doesn't matter where you hit, they will take the same damage anywhere. On the other hand, an efreet or a fire genasi is a creature with some kind of connection to the elemental plane of fire. They tolerate fire and have powers based on fire, but they are not made of fire. They have flesh and organs, and digestive system, and blood and anything else needed to survive. Those may have imbued the power of fire in them, but they are not fire, they are flesh.
Shemeska the Marauder
06-29-07, 02:56 PM On a side note: I have always wondered why gensai have the outsider and not elemental type.

Because outsiders as a type is grossly too broad. Conceptually speaking the genie-kin have nothing in common with fiends and celestials, and come from opposite ends of the planes. Ideas versus substance, yet they're lumped together because game mechanics try not to get too deep about it.
Valgard
06-30-07, 09:23 AM Because outsiders as a type is grossly too broad. Conceptually speaking the genie-kin have nothing in common with fiends and celestials, and come from opposite ends of the planes. Ideas versus substance, yet they're lumped together because game mechanics try not to get too deep about it.Exactly. Althought in-game a genie would have more things in common with an elemental rather than with a celestial or fiend, its type definition is concerned from the point of view from the mechanics of the game. I think it should be made this way, but then the rules would be even more chaotic. (not in the alignment sense :D)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amoris Dendidorm 06-29-07, 07:13 AM	Can someone help me? While building a character with the native outsider discriptor and a level adjustment of 1 (aasimar, genasi, tiefling etc.) does it get the outsider traits (D8 HP, +2 to all saves, +1 BAB, 8 + int. mod. skill points)? And if not why not? The aasmar and tiefling from the MM 3.5 do not heve these traits in their stats, can someone please explain!?! Mighty Thanks!
Adimarchus 06-29-07, 08:03 AM	Those outsider features you have just described apply only to racial outsider HD and not to hit dice gained through classes (which is what a tiefling would advance with), a Tiefling has no racial hit dice and so will not benefit from them. They are for things like demons and devils who have lots of HD that are not class HD. I'm not sure but I think that any creature with the Outsider type will benefit from the other traits described in the Monster Manual (darkvision, weapon proficiency) though the (native) subtype removes some of these such as the need to breathe and eat. I'm not positive on this however. On a side note: I have always wondered why gensai have the outsider and not elemental type.
Valgard 06-29-07, 09:04 AM	Those outsider features you have just described apply only to racial outsider HD and not to hit dice gained through classes (which is what a tiefling would advance with), a Tiefling has no racial hit dice and so will not benefit from them. They are for things like demons and devils who have lots of HD that are not class HD. I'm not sure but I think that any creature with the Outsider type will benefit from the other traits described in the Monster Manual (darkvision, weapon proficiency) though the (native) subtype removes some of these such as the need to breathe and eat. I'm not positive on this however. On a side note: I have always wondered why gensai have the outsider and not elemental type.You are right, those planetouched do not have racial Hit Dice and so they do not use the advancement rules for outsiders. Those rules listed in the Monster Manual show how to handle racial or monstrous HD as any other class, with their BAB, saves, proficiencies or any other feature they may have. The reason why genasi (not gensai) are outsiders and not elementals is the same as why genies are outsiders and not elementals. Elementals, as the Monster Manual and the SRD say, are creatures made of one of the basic elements or a combination of those so, for example, a fire elemental is an elemental because it's fully made of fire, it has no internal organs, nor brain nor heart, it is all fire. That's why they are immune to sneak attacks and critical hits, it doesn't matter where you hit, they will take the same damage anywhere. On the other hand, an efreet or a fire genasi is a creature with some kind of connection to the elemental plane of fire. They tolerate fire and have powers based on fire, but they are not made of fire. They have flesh and organs, and digestive system, and blood and anything else needed to survive. Those may have imbued the power of fire in them, but they are not fire, they are flesh.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-29-07, 02:56 PM	On a side note: I have always wondered why gensai have the outsider and not elemental type. Because outsiders as a type is grossly too broad. Conceptually speaking the genie-kin have nothing in common with fiends and celestials, and come from opposite ends of the planes. Ideas versus substance, yet they're lumped together because game mechanics try not to get too deep about it.
Valgard 06-30-07, 09:23 AM	Because outsiders as a type is grossly too broad. Conceptually speaking the genie-kin have nothing in common with fiends and celestials, and come from opposite ends of the planes. Ideas versus substance, yet they're lumped together because game mechanics try not to get too deep about it.Exactly. Althought in-game a genie would have more things in common with an elemental rather than with a celestial or fiend, its type definition is concerned from the point of view from the mechanics of the game. I think it should be made this way, but then the rules would be even more chaotic. (not in the alignment sense :D)