Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suncapcd 06-25-07, 10:14 AM	I am playing a CG Minotaur paladin of Tempus in my game. Recently, I have rescued/purchased several minotaur slaves and have plans to mold them into a mercenary company. Now they were formerly gladitators so Im sure they were CE to CN at best. My goal is to have them CN. Also, is phalax fighting only a thing of law? I dont envision having a company of frenzied charging minotaurs that get cut down by ranged attacks before they ever make their target. My idea is for a heavily armored juggernaut. Is this feasible? If not, what do you think is best result?
Suncapcd 06-25-07, 06:06 PM	/bump for 18 views and not one reply!
bondious 06-26-07, 01:35 AM	First off, and maybe this is just a houserule in your game you're playing, but to be a paladin requires a Lawful Good alignment. You know, whatever. As for you group of minotaurs, a well organized military/mercenary group would tend to be on the lawful side, in my opinion, but I wouldn't say that it's strictly for a Lawful character. I mean, there's no alignment restriction for the Phalanx Fighting feat, so I don't imagine that there would be one for a character who is trained as such. I SUPPOSE that if they work together that way LONG ENOUGH, they might start becoming Lawful...who knows! Remember, too, that to be a paladin you can't really associate with evil characters without a REAL GOOD reason, or else you might break your code of conduct. Now you're trying to bring 'em "back from the dark side", which is cool, but you'd have to walk a pretty fine line with some of them (especially the Chaotic Evil ones) when they act up. Also, just because you freed them doesn't mean they "owe" you, so keep that in mind when you think about "molding" them to your will.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-26-07, 12:27 PM	I am playing a CG Minotaur paladin of Tempus in my game. Recently, I have rescued/purchased several minotaur slaves and have plans to mold them into a mercenary company. Now they were formerly gladitators so Im sure they were CE to CN at best. My goal is to have them CN. Also, is phalax fighting only a thing of law? I dont envision having a company of frenzied charging minotaurs that get cut down by ranged attacks before they ever make their target. My idea is for a heavily armored juggernaut. Is this feasible? If not, what do you think is best result? I'm assuming you used the paladin varriants from unearthed arcana. As for alignment changes, you cant force a creature to one side or another, but an atonement or a geas spell does, though both can be costly. A controlled minotaur hoard can be pretty devistating, your going with the phalanx approach? I always prefered the minotaur battering ram myself, I'm partial to their chaotic tendancies. Good old spiked fullplate; dwarven battlerager style. But the huge spears and towershields approach should work well.
Cryto 06-26-07, 08:43 PM	You're CG paladin?
Drew1369r 06-26-07, 08:57 PM	You're CG paladin? Let see how many others call him out on this... Being that a paladin states that he has to be LG in the PHB lets go ahead and assume its a house rule. Back on topic Just because something is Chaotic doesn't mean that it can't follow orders... when the cows are fighting you can assume that they will fight in the best way possible ESPECIALLY if you train them in the warrior arts!!!
Suncapcd 06-27-07, 12:41 PM	[QUOTE=Drew1369r;12870083]Let see how many others call him out on this... Being that a paladin states that he has to be LG in the PHB lets go ahead and assume its a house rule. Unearthed Arcana. There are CG, CE, and LE paladins now. Tempus is CN therefore he cant have a LG paladin yet it states he does have paladins.
Drew1369r 06-27-07, 04:45 PM	wow you seem to have not gotten my post... lets stop hijacking this thread
mittenninja 07-01-07, 03:58 AM	As a CG Paladin you would be very against slavery, so unless there is a really good reason for having slaves I don't see this working flavor wise at all.
bondious 07-01-07, 01:19 PM	As a CG Paladin you would be very against slavery, so unless there is a really good reason for having slaves I don't see this working flavor wise at all. Unless I'm mistaken, the minotaurs are FORMER slaves that the CG paladin recued/freed, and NOT the paladin's own personal slaves. That wouldn't fly for ANY kind of paladin, I'm thinking.
sleyvas 07-02-07, 04:56 PM	>>Unless I'm mistaken, the minotaurs are FORMER slaves that the CG paladin >>recued/freed, and NOT the paladin's own personal slaves. That wouldn't fly >>for ANY kind of paladin, I'm thinking. It would for a CE paladin of slaughter or a LE paladin of tyranny
Suncapcd 07-03-07, 05:44 PM	No, no. Completely lost here. They were Thayan slaves/gladiators. He rescued them from the Thayans and freed them. In the process, he gave them the option of going out on their own or joining him. They chose to join him. So no longer slaves.
bitter thorn 07-04-07, 01:35 AM	This might help. http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Shield_Wall,all http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Shield_and_Pike_Style,all
bondious 07-05-07, 01:44 PM	It would for a CE paladin of slaughter or a LE paladin of tyranny I meant for any "good" paladin, not realizing that there was an "evil" one. Thought those were called blackguards.
Drew1369r 07-05-07, 01:54 PM	I meant for any "good" paladin, not realizing that there was an "evil" one. Thought those were called blackguards. Unearthed Arcana contains variant rules for alot of classes... it contains as a base class, the extreme alignment variant palidins CG,LE,and CE.
Alac Luin 07-05-07, 03:04 PM	Tempus is CN therefore he cant have a LG paladin yet it states he does have paladins. Where? I'm not seeing this (I may just be overlooking it). On topic, and really what I want to say is that what you are suggesting is really going against the nature of the minotaurs and the spirit of Tempus. With 6 racial hit die and a +5 Natural armor they can pretty much stand up to a few archers initial assault. Give them each a chain shirt and they will have an AC of 18. They would be as good as a unit or armored knights. The idea of heavily armored, tower shield carrying minotaurs also may deny them their most powerful devastating attack. the powerful charge. (not positive about this rules wise). BTW: When you say "several", did you mean 3 or 200? This really does have an impact on suggestions, includeing what I wrote above.
Drew1369r 07-05-07, 06:21 PM	I minotaurs can still charge unless the armor says otherwise... (like mountain armor which even reduces the speed of dwarves) And how is it going against the spirit of Tempus? Last time I checked a unit made for war, going to war, and fighting in a war, is very much the spirit of Tempus.
Alac Luin 07-05-07, 06:59 PM	I minotaurs can still charge unless the armor says otherwise... (like mountain armor which even reduces the speed of dwarves) By charging they would be breaking ranks, which will destroy the phalanx fighting formations now wouldn't it? And how is it going against the spirit of Tempus? Last time I checked a unit made for war, going to war, and fighting in a war, is very much the spirit of Tempus. Read his dogma... "...[Tempus] helps the deserving warrior win battles." Tempus has more desire to see battle between individual warriors then seeing a phalanx like unit. That is something in the line of the Red Knight. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is an "insult" to Tempus, it is just that he is better represented by 5 barbarians swinging battle axes with abandon then a 20 people standing shoulder to shoulder behind 5 foot tall sheets of metal.
Drew1369r 07-05-07, 07:38 PM	By charging they would be breaking ranks, which will destroy the phalanx fighting formations now wouldn't it? Ok I missed what you wrote I thought you were talking specifically about armor impedeing their ability to charge. Read his dogma... "...[Tempus] helps the deserving warrior win battles." Tempus has more desire to see battle between individual warriors then seeing a phalanx like unit. That is something in the line of the Red Knight. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is an "insult" to Tempus, it is just that he is better represented by 5 barbarians swinging battle axes with abandon then a 20 people standing shoulder to shoulder behind 5 foot tall sheets of metal. Wow... ok, thats one of the most interesting interpretations of Tempus I have ever seen... thats just wow. Have you read all of the segment in F&P on Tempus... he is my most favorite of gods so to read what you wrote just blew me away... Battle axes with abandon... interesting.
Alac Luin 07-05-07, 11:40 PM	Wow... ok, thats one of the most interesting interpretations of Tempus I have ever seen... thats just wow. Have you read all of the segment in F&P on Tempus... he is my most favorite of gods so to read what you wrote just blew me away... Battle axes with abandon... interesting. Yes, and re reading it again only reinforces what I said. I might say "with abandon" may lead one to over read what my intent was. I have a feeling what you are thinking is more like what would be worthy of a Garagos worshiper. F&P is only one source of information on Tempus, so what my feelings about this deity does have a vast amount of other influences. like this little law on religion from Tethyr (Lands of Intrigue)... "Harmful activities countenanced by one’s religion cannot be practiced upon nonbelievers with impunity. For example, followers of Tempus cannot run amok in the highlands, wantonly attacking others simply to further the name of the god of battle. Such worship is often welcome in times of war, provided it is used against Tethyr’s foes." My point, if Tempus worship wasn't a bit on the "wild side", why would this analogy have been made? Tempus (aka Tempos among the tundra barbarians) is the primary deity of Uthgart barbarian warriors, and creditied as being the father of these peoples. Amongst these people "he is seen as the berserker’s patron, protector of those who succumb to berserk frenzy" (from The North") My point: berserker is now called barbarian (in game terms) is he didn't have this "wild side" why would barbarians consider him a protector? "Swinging a battle ax with abandon" among the ranks of your enemy is different then "Swinging a battle ax with abandon" among random people is different. The former more along the lines of Tempus, the latter along the lines of Garagos.
mcJoker 07-07-07, 05:54 PM	I'm still trying to figure out the paladin of Tempus part myself... Have read numerous entries and the closest to that which I can see is a divine champion...no mention of paladin in anything I have about Tempus. It's not my group though...so...guess that's one chalked up to house rules.
Red_Decker 07-07-07, 06:32 PM	Nothing says they can't form up as phalanx to close then break ranks to best use their natural reach and fight individually. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Alac Luin 07-07-07, 07:39 PM	Nothing says they can't form up as phalanx to close then break ranks to best use their natural reach and fight individually. Now, I'm for that :) On a tactical note, that will become a magnet for incoming magical effects. A pack of 20 (just using that number as the OP has not given a better number that I have seen) minotaurs will be seen as a serious threat by any opposing spellcasters. The minotaurs may have a better chance of surviving the incoming fireball much better then a squad of 1 HD humans, but spells like Black Tentacles and several other AoE effects would be better spent by mages to break the minotaurs' advance.
captaincarot 07-08-07, 07:10 AM	By charging they would be breaking ranks, which will destroy the phalanx fighting formations now wouldn't it? not if they all charge in a line. you could probably make a new feat out of it called stampede, it's also something which i would not like to be on the end of. as it would probably work out some thing like round 1 form up, round 2 stampede, round 3 sit down and start eating the mashed reamins and soup you have just made out of the opposing army. think stampeding heard of cows waving axes in both hands, not nice.
Alac Luin 07-08-07, 04:06 PM	It would be terrifying in the extreme, but such a feat should require some form of co-operative fighting feat first, so two feats in total to perform this maneuver. This depends on the Feats they already have, DM kindness, or advancing a few levels. A nice goal worth striving for though :)
Red_Decker 07-09-07, 01:16 AM	what's it called a Helmet of Alignment change... change them all to LG. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Passivearmada 07-11-07, 12:50 PM	i think CN mercenarys are the best cause CN is about doing whatever you want, right? no laws, just me, myself, i. so, a mercenary wants to help his clients, right? he'll help a client of any alignment and morals and religious beliefs wont get in the way. thats why CN is my favorite alignment.
Passivearmada 07-11-07, 12:52 PM	whenever i hear the word 'Tempus,' i cant not see Wulfgar with Aegis-Fang held high over his screaming "Tempus!" as he charges into battle. just a thought. has anyone ever played a worshipper of The Red Knight? or is he just an FR god, cause he seems interesting to me.
Alac Luin 07-11-07, 01:50 PM	whenever i hear the word 'Tempus,' i cant not see Wulfgar with Aegis-Fang held high over his screaming "Tempus!" Well, one reason is Wulfgar would more likely yell... "Tempos!" as he charges into battle. just a thought. has anyone ever played a worshipper of The Red Knight? or is he just an FR god, cause he seems interesting to me. I have not played a worshiper of the Red Knight, but SHE is a Realms specific deity.
Passivearmada 07-11-07, 05:41 PM	yeah i read she's like the daughter of tempus or something. and wulfgar was an alcoholic for a while- not a druggie, alac luin. ive never played as a minotaur, but i like the idea. where are the areas that theyre found at? mountains? forests?
Alac Luin 07-11-07, 08:01 PM	yeah i read she's like the daughter of tempus or something. Well, you did call her "he" Tempus did raise her to a deity, so he is kind of like a father figure to her. and wulfgar was an alcoholic for a while- not a druggie, alac luin. What does this have to do with Tempus? It's relatively well know that the Tundra Barbarians (the tribe Wulfgar is from were tundra barbarians) refer to Tempus as Tempos. ive never played as a minotaur, but i like the idea. where are the areas that theyre found at? mountains? forests? The largest concentration of Minotaurs on Faerun is in the underdark, north east of Waterdeep in an area refered to as the The Labyrinth. Though I'd imagine the can be found anywhere that use slaves for fighting ie. Thay, Drow city.
Passivearmada 07-11-07, 09:57 PM	oh. i thought you were referring to the drug tempos. sorry- i just thought you were another drizzt and friends critic- really sorry. and, ive never read wulfgar say "tempos", i always thought it was "tempus." anyways, thanks for the info alac, even though i though wulfgar was from the tribe of the elk.....
Alac Luin 07-11-07, 10:18 PM	No harm, and honestly, I don't remember Wulfgar calling out either name, not saying he didn't I just dont remember one way or the other. I was just using what would have been his native word for Tempus. Consider me old school, I've never even heard of a drug called Tempos :shrug: He is from the the Elk tribe, there is an Uthgardt tribe called Elk also. The tundra barbarian tribes are known as; Tribe of the Elk, the Tribe of the Wolf, the Tribe of the Bear, and the Tribe of the Tiger. Edit: as opposed to Grey Wolf, Blue Bear, Red Tiger. The Uthgardt tribes typically have an extra word like a color associated with the animal. This is most likely the reason the Silver Marches erroneously calls Wulfgar an Uthgardt.
Drew1369r 07-12-07, 02:17 AM	He said Tempos in the very first book...
Passivearmada 07-12-07, 09:48 AM	the crystal shard? hmmm... ill go check...... hmm- i cant find an instance where he says "tempus" or "tempos" i thought he did when he fought ingeloakastimizilian, and when in the giant lair... i read through these chapters, and not a single battlecry. oh, and tempo is just another one of those billions of drug combinations they have today, that they call different from all the rest. yes, i did call her "he" but that was before i read up on her. i didnt know that she didnt support CN, and thats me, so... i'll look elsewhere.
Red_Decker 07-12-07, 11:37 AM	It was in the original printing of "The Crystal Shard" new copies may have changed it but I remember seeing it there, and later in RAS's books he cried Tempus, not really sure why. As for the Minotaur formation, wasn't there a tactical feat that allowed formations like this, if not have them just ready and hold actions so the charge happens at the same time. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Alac Luin 07-12-07, 12:20 PM	As for the Minotaur formation, wasn't there a tactical feat that allowed formations like this, if not have them just ready and hold actions so the charge happens at the same time. This could work, I imagine it would.(talk to your local DM, that is who you need to OK it. ) I'm still not sure I'm for Tempus worshiping Minotaurs fighting in formation (just my take on Tempus worship).
Red_Decker 07-12-07, 01:58 PM	Oh yeah, I forgot about this part. Worshiping a deity doesn't depend on alignment... being a cleric does. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Alac Luin 07-12-07, 02:10 PM	Oh yeah, I forgot about this part. Worshiping a deity doesn't depend on alignment... being a cleric does. FRCS- pg 66, states all divine casters in the realms are subject to the one step rule, not just clerics (slightly better clarified in the FRCS FAQ). As the OP is useing a variant paladin, I think he qualifies as a divine caster (I'm not up on the variant paladins). As such, I'd also imagine he would want to emulate the deity's ideals which is why I stated my opinion that I do not feel Tempus is best served in this manner, never said he was not allowed to do it. For Passivearmada and the Red Knight, it may work, as long as he is not a divine caster.
Red_Decker 07-12-07, 02:31 PM	I thought he was talking about the Minotaurs... my bad. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Drew1369r 07-12-07, 03:33 PM	But your view on Tempus is... different then everyone I have talked to about it.
Soltares 07-12-07, 06:53 PM	Love the idea of armoring them up and teaching them to 'stampede' en masse. Improved Overrun, combined with a special custom Feat that allows your troops to take an attack on a person knocked prone by their overrun (a variation on Improved Trip that would require Improved Overrun as a prereq) could do the trick. Bull-men charge into enemy formation. Enemies scatter like tenpins, with the bull-men goring, trampling, shield-bashing and / or bludgeoning those thrown off-balance by their Overrun attack.
Swiftblade 07-12-07, 10:19 PM	Alright, I have to jump in on this forum being a recovering DragonLanceaholic. If you want to look at minotaurs as warriors, no better series for that. As for the whole who is better serving their diety. We all have to remember, we all attempt to exemplify that which we interpret, using this as a basis, remember we are all interpreting things as we either see it or want it. Also, if you want to have a phalanx that is fine, but a phalanx does not use tower shields, a phalanx would use round shield with spears, and each warrior would be like a greek hoplite. If you want to us tower shields like a roman, you are going with the turtle formation, I forget the specific name but it changes from the greek because they do not agree with anything made from a pagenistic society. The romans did not charge they marched, but they were horrifically successful because of their close ranks held those in front steady from the crush of bodies. If you want them to charge, it would take time to train them to run at the same speed with armor and shields or weapons that they are using. As for the idea, I personally like it. All you have to do is convert their alignments to CN or CG, either would work, and as for the whole fighting singularily, we must remember that heroes fight independently, but remember every warrior on the field of battle cries out in faith or other reasons and is not remembered even though they are fighting alone even if in rank. For although the romans and greeks perfected fighting in ranks each warrior had to fight their space alone and had to make up the slack of those who either fell or were pushed away, making them exemplify that which was stated earlier. And as far as it is concerned for these minotaurs fighting like juggernauts in their unit, look at it like this, each wields a sword or other sharp melee weapon, since it is proven that blunt weapons do not work well in formation because of the required motions and space for wielding it, and also a polearm of somesort whether a simple spear or glaive or guisimare they would fight best in a wedge or triangular formation that puts point first. This allows them to use space to their advantage. Plus this formation can still work very well as a turtle with the shields and as for the wizard issue, just get one of your own to protect your warriors.
Alac Luin 07-13-07, 10:34 PM	But your view on Tempus is... different then everyone I have talked to about it. Thats fine, I view Tempus the way I see him and his worshipers represented in all published material I have read. I have not read everything, so perhaps I'm missing something, or perhaps my interpretation just differs, or perhaps someone is mistaking Tempus for someone along the lines of Torm or Tyr. I do know, there are at least a few others on these boards that have a similar view of Tempus as I do. What really matters, is how Tempus is viewed by the OP's home game (read: DM). Even if I was the OP's DM, I wouldn't penalize him in Tempus' eyes, I expressed how I would do it. I also gave a concern about limiting the minotaurs' most powerful attack. (on a side note, DL minotaurs have a different, more lawful, society then the minotaurs of Faerun, so the nature of the creatures will differ to some extent)
Passivearmada 07-14-07, 11:17 AM	i havn't had much experience with minotaurs besides this on AWESOME fight scene in....Starless Night, i believe. and fairy tales. they appeal to me and my players shall feel warned that minotaurs will hinder their quest in one way or another. the MMv3.5 stats for a minotaur present no armor, and no weapons i believe. there are no weapon/armor proficiencies, so i assume they just take the proficiencies of whatever class they are. im thinkin warrior levels 1-5 throughout my campaign for the average troup, so they'd be CR 5-10, because they are originally a CR 4 with no class levels except for Monstrous Humanoid, but is it possible to lake levels in Monstrous Humanoid? cause that seems kinda weird to me. does anyone know an average of how many years they live? the description says that they are cunning, but their intelligence is only 7, so.... i guess theyre just cunning, but still unintelligent...hm.. oh, wait- i just saw they use a greataxe, or gore. so i guess minotaurs are automatically proficient with the greataxe... can someone kinda fill me in on some stuff, like why the minotaur has no class, but is still proficient with a greataxe.. thank you
Drew1369r 07-14-07, 01:12 PM	In the Minotaur as a caracter section MM 3.5 it gives you all those answers. It just runs off the myth of Mino's in the labrynth with an axe.
Passivearmada 07-14-07, 02:46 PM	oh! kinda funny that all the answers were right before me... i feel supid. anyways- it kinda bummed me out that the Natural Cunning ability prevents them from ever being caught flat-footed, it seems. so, you can't sneak up on them, but if theyre trying to balance, they are FF? thats what im getting from the text. i am usually always a rogue or some other scoundrel, and i like to get the best edge in battle that i can. i follow the "if the target is flat-footed, you can sneak attack them" rule, but im not sure if everybody goes by that. do creatures count as flat-footed if theyre asleep? cause id think so. then you'd be avle to coup-de-grace them. i remember in one encounter long ago, two of the PCs snuck into a guard barracks in the mountains, near where their rebel group was trying to make base, and they coup-de-graced almost all of the sleeping guards. it was pretty cool, i guess. anyways, if i were to add some minotaur troops into my campaign, should they be warriors, like the NPC class, or barbarians, making them quite a bit more difficult?
Alac Luin 07-14-07, 05:33 PM	from the SRD HELPLESS DEFENDERS A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy. Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him). Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace)
Passivearmada 07-15-07, 11:13 AM	thank you, alac... man, if you're asleep and hit by a rogue, you're screwed. can anyone (preferably an experienced DM) give me a good average CR for a soldier that would face against the party, and how large their group would be. the party is currently level 8, but i tend to buff up my encounters when theyre just breezing by, so you can expect them to be level 9, or even 10 soon.