New Prestige class - Small Weapons Master [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Prestige class - Small Weapons Master [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dragonheart
04-07-07, 11:53 PM I was working on a new character concept and was trying to combine the Invisble Blade and Master thrower Prestige classes when I ran into some confusion. the Invisible Blade (a basically melee dagger fighter as described) has requirements of point blank shot and precise shot? :confused: :confused: :confused:
is there an errata for this somewhere (COmplete warrior errata??)?

Anyway after looking over both 5 level classes (Invisible blade and Master thrower) I decded that with a bit or rewrite they would combine nicely into a single 10 level rogue centered prestige class so here goes another try for comment:

Small Weapons Master Prestige Class
Rogues, Both adventurers and others, are often forced to fight whether they want to or not. Many rogues take a few levels of fighter to improve their combat abilities. Similarly a few scouts, rangers and fighters take a few levels of rogue to expand their capacities for skills and adventuring. A few of these choose to master the use of small concealable and throw able weapons for use in defense during their careers, these are the Small Weapons Masters. Many Halfling and Gnome rogues chose this class since larger weapons are generally beyond their abilities.
A Small Weapons Master specializes in the use of one or more small light weapons that are capable of being wielded both as melee and missile weapons, Such weapons include (but are not limited to) Daggers/knives, slings, short swords, darts, shurikens, light hammers and picks, throwing axes and kukris. While weapon mastery is generally considered to be a martial attribute these deadly combatants are not fighters but rather still are primarily rogues. That is they choose to maintain their careers as skill, finesse and dexterity based adventurers not as forefront combatants.
Requirements:
To qualify to become a Small Weapons Master (normally known by the type of weapon mastered) a character must fulfill the following requirements:
Skills: Bluff 8, Sense Motive 8, Open Lock 8, Disable Device 8
Feats/Abilities: Acrobatic, Weapon Focus(selected small light weapon), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Uncanny Dodge.

Class Benefits:
Hit Dice: D6
Level BAB RS FS WS Special
1 +1 +2 +1 +0 2 Weapon Fighting, Unfettered Defense (Light/no armour)
2 +2 +3 +1 +1 2 Weapon Defense, Quickdraw
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 +1D6 Sneak Attack, Thrown Weapon Trick
4 +3 +4 +2 +1 Improved Evasion
5 +4 +4 +2 +2 Improved 2 Weapon Fighting
6 +5 +5 +2 +2 +2D6 Sneak Attack, Thrown Weapon Trick
7 +6 +5 +3 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge
8 +6 +6 +3 +3 Far Shot, Deflect Arrows
9 +7 +6 +3 +3 +3D6 Sneak Attack, Thrown Weapon Trick
10 +8 +7 +4 +3 Critical Throw, Greater 2 Weapon Fighting

(Feats and abilities are all either regular feats (PHB) or are from the Invisible Blade and Master Thrower Prestige Classes (CW). The only significant change to any of them is to extend the Unfettered Defense ability to include light armours.

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Disable device, Escape Artist, Gather Info, Hide, Intimidate, JUmp, LIsten, Move Silently, Open Locks, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope.

ANy comments on it?
kaor
04-08-07, 11:03 AM I like it.

I think I've read somewhere that the invisible blade and master thrower were split off from an original 10 level class, so in a way you've just reconstructed it.

A couple notes:

1) Your bab progression is a little different than most. Usually you get +5, +7, or +10. Did you really mean +8?
2) You list Reflex as the first save, usually they go F/R/W. Rewriting yours you get 4/7/3 for F/R/W. Did you really mean a +4 fort save?
3) Uncanny feint should be a swift action not a free one. I think the invisible blade had it errata'ed somehow. But you shouldn't be able to do it an infinite number of times a round.
4) How many skill points a level?
5) Change improved evasion to evasion. Or list evasion as a prereq. If they already have evasion it will become improved anyway if they get evasion from this class.

You may get comments about it being unbalanced or something. Other than having entrance requirements that make more sense than what was published, the biggest difference between your 10 level class and taking the IB and MT as separate 5 levels is the two weapon fighting feats you throw in.

No matter what you do, this class won't be as effective as an arcane trickster or other rogue/caster type combo.

While it may step on fighter toes to some extent, I'm sure there are other ways to get the features you have here with some of that char opt mojo.

Go with it, it has good flavor, and the sources of class imbalance are the full caster classes anyway. It won't make much difference in a game if this class is implemented, it isn't going to break anything.
dragonheart
04-08-07, 05:21 PM 1) Your bab progression is a little different than most. Usually you get +5, +7, or +10. Did you really mean +8?
2) You list Reflex as the first save, usually they go F/R/W. Rewriting yours you get 4/7/3 for F/R/W. Did you really mean a +4 fort save?
3) Uncanny feint should be a swift action not a free one. I think the invisible blade had it errata'ed somehow. But you shouldn't be able to do it an infinite number of times a round.
4) How many skill points a level?
5) Change improved evasion to evasion. Or list evasion as a prereq. If they already have evasion it will become improved anyway if they get evasion from this class.
#1 yes I meant it to be different. THe class is a combo of fighter and rogue capabilities so I wanted a BAB better than a rogue's but worse than a fighter's.
#2 Again yes I did for pretty much the same reason. THe PrC is a fighter/rogue combo but the emphasis is on rogue so I kept the rogue RS progression but improved the fighter FS and left the WS as the worst progression.
#3 Your probably right that it should be a swift action but as I haven't seen any errata I kept it as listed in CW.
#4 SKill points 6/level +IB Again this is a mix between the rogue and fighter to go with the class concept. Basically you give up a bit of rogue skill in terms of skills available and skill points anad the energy you would have spent on those goes into improving yoru fighting.
#5 Giventhat rogues are the only ones that get the prerequisite Uncanny dodge (at least at low levels) and they get evasion before uncanny dodge it doesn't make sense to effectively to do other than as I've done it - you have to reach rogue 4 to qualify so you already have evasion so the PrC should be giving you Improved evasion not evasion.

WHile the Arcane trickster is a nice class it is a caster combo class while this is entended to be a PrC for fighter/Rogues, Ranger/Rogues, Scout/Rogues, and perhaps Monk/ROgues not for casters. I chose to switch out some of the abilities of the Invisible Blade and put in hte 2 weapon progresson as the listed abilities seemed suboptimal to me and using 2 weapons when both are light and small is really what 2 weapon fighting was intended for (and what it is really good for in real life - there are very few folks able to weild 2 large weapons like long swords and not have them create more problems than they solve wihtout immense amounts of training.)
Give this Prc a good short sword and the gloves of initnite daggers fromthe magic item compendium and watch out :D
Sylock
04-10-07, 02:51 PM Holy crap is he high powered! That's like 18 feats worth of ... well feats and extra powers. If you took a fighter 10 / Rogue 10, yes a 20th level character, he would be so far below this guy (except from BAB and saves which are ok for a level 10) at level 10 that it would be sick. Just my opinion. Lets look at it this way.
Feats:
2Weapon Fighting
2Weapon Defense
Quickdraw
Improved Evasion
Deflect Arrows
Improved 2 Weapon Fighting
Feint Mastery
Far Shot
Critical Throw
Greater 2 Weapon Fighting (which technically he couldn't have for at least 3 more levels because you need a BAB of +11)
===========
10 Feats. A level 10fighter/10rogue only gets 12 feats total

+3D6 Sneak Attack vs the 10fighter/10 rogue +5d6 sneak attack

10 fighter/10 rogue gets
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
and one extra feat

Your level 10 gets those plus:
Unfettered Defense (Light/no armour)
3 x Thrown Weapon Trick
Uncanny Feint (Free Action)

Then +6 skill points too? This would be the end all and be all of a rogue. Lose 2 skill points a level and +2d6 SA over 10 levels, to have a better +1 BAB, +1 Fort, +7 feats, +5 extra abilities. Take off about 8 feats and given them the choice (like ranger) of either the thrown weapon tricks or the Uncanny Feints. *shrug*
dragonheart
04-10-07, 05:10 PM given how lousy feinting really is since your foe gets to add his BAB in when countering your bluff and you don't (scratch one skill point at least every level just to counter this so it has an ongoing cost forever) I may just remove the feints all together.

as for:Greater 2 Weapon Fighting (which technically he couldn't have for at least 3 more levels because you need a BAB of +11) remember the PC would already be at least a f2/r4 wiht a BAB of +4 before entering the PrC so his total BAB would be +12 at level 16 and he would qualify. Given the low damage done by light weapons having extra attacks helps but is not as great as it sounds given the -2 to all attacks and the decreasing BAB for additional attacks - most later attacks simply won't hit and any that do are not going to be doing much damage. on the otherhand the PC doesn't have to keep making dex checks to keep from knocking things over, making noise and setting off missed traps with the losse end of a scabbard.(having tried wearing swords for special occasions I regognize just how unweildy the things can be and it goes into my games at least). yes it is feat heavy and could possibly loose a few - but which? It shouldn't be a matter of thrown or two weapon like the ranger - with small weapons they get used for both regularly while bows and swords do not forcing you to focus on one or the other. (unless yoru robinhood who seems to have been a bow focused ranger who used his free feats to take weapon focus & weapon specialization: long sword.
Sylock
04-11-07, 11:00 AM Well for me, 10 levels should give at the most 5 feats and extra powers, so you should remove 13 of the others. You have _way_ to many feats and powers. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any other class or Prc with even 1/2 of the feats and powers you previously had listed.

Keep:
2Weapon Fighting
Improved 2 Weapon Fighting
Critical Throw
(add) Weapon Finesse
(add) Weapon Focus Dagger (or any dual melee/missile weapon)

Drop:
2Weapon Defense
Quickdraw
Improved Evasion
Deflect Arrows
Improved 2 Weapon Fighting
Feint Mastery
Far Shot
Critical Throw
Greater 2Weapon Fighting
Unfettered Defense (Light/no armour)
3 x Thrown Weapon Trick
Uncanny Feint (Free Action)

Maybe limit this to just +2d6 instead of +3D6 Sneak Attack
kaor
04-11-07, 11:11 AM Take a look at the Invisible Blade and Master Thrower from Complete Warrior.

Except for the two weapon feats it's not much different. (And his class has 2 less BAB to boot)

And to repeat something I posted earlier in this thread, it just won't make much of a difference.

All of the non-caster classes have real problems in this game as levels get higher.

And there are some damage reduction problems that are going to be 2x worse for this class, and 4x worse if the throwing aspect is used a lot.

Edit: I mean that as in requiring all sorts of alchemical metal thowing items and weapons for each hand in the golf bag instead of the one two handed fighters and sword and boarders need.

Someone already mentioned the feint mechanics as well.

If you want to throw things your best bet is that thrower PRC from the Book of 9 Swords.

Stronger than a straight rogue, but it won't unbalance the game. Still not as good as a druid or cleric.
dragonheart
04-11-07, 08:10 PM Exactly (more or less) Sylock please take a look at the two 5 level classes this is based off of - you get at least one feat/ability every level for 10 levels. Unfortuqantely some of them don't really make much sense and seem to be WotC throwing in somehting useless to make it seem powerful. I've revised or removed the feats that don't really work and substituted in worthwhile feats for someone that has turned to small throwable weapons for a defense/offense. I've edited and changed the class as shown in the first post so you might want to review it before adding any new comments.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dragonheart 04-07-07, 11:53 PM	I was working on a new character concept and was trying to combine the Invisble Blade and Master thrower Prestige classes when I ran into some confusion. the Invisible Blade (a basically melee dagger fighter as described) has requirements of point blank shot and precise shot? :confused: :confused: :confused: is there an errata for this somewhere (COmplete warrior errata??)? Anyway after looking over both 5 level classes (Invisible blade and Master thrower) I decded that with a bit or rewrite they would combine nicely into a single 10 level rogue centered prestige class so here goes another try for comment: Small Weapons Master Prestige Class Rogues, Both adventurers and others, are often forced to fight whether they want to or not. Many rogues take a few levels of fighter to improve their combat abilities. Similarly a few scouts, rangers and fighters take a few levels of rogue to expand their capacities for skills and adventuring. A few of these choose to master the use of small concealable and throw able weapons for use in defense during their careers, these are the Small Weapons Masters. Many Halfling and Gnome rogues chose this class since larger weapons are generally beyond their abilities. A Small Weapons Master specializes in the use of one or more small light weapons that are capable of being wielded both as melee and missile weapons, Such weapons include (but are not limited to) Daggers/knives, slings, short swords, darts, shurikens, light hammers and picks, throwing axes and kukris. While weapon mastery is generally considered to be a martial attribute these deadly combatants are not fighters but rather still are primarily rogues. That is they choose to maintain their careers as skill, finesse and dexterity based adventurers not as forefront combatants. Requirements: To qualify to become a Small Weapons Master (normally known by the type of weapon mastered) a character must fulfill the following requirements: Skills: Bluff 8, Sense Motive 8, Open Lock 8, Disable Device 8 Feats/Abilities: Acrobatic, Weapon Focus(selected small light weapon), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Uncanny Dodge. Class Benefits: Hit Dice: D6 Level BAB RS FS WS Special 1 +1 +2 +1 +0 2 Weapon Fighting, Unfettered Defense (Light/no armour) 2 +2 +3 +1 +1 2 Weapon Defense, Quickdraw 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 +1D6 Sneak Attack, Thrown Weapon Trick 4 +3 +4 +2 +1 Improved Evasion 5 +4 +4 +2 +2 Improved 2 Weapon Fighting 6 +5 +5 +2 +2 +2D6 Sneak Attack, Thrown Weapon Trick 7 +6 +5 +3 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge 8 +6 +6 +3 +3 Far Shot, Deflect Arrows 9 +7 +6 +3 +3 +3D6 Sneak Attack, Thrown Weapon Trick 10 +8 +7 +4 +3 Critical Throw, Greater 2 Weapon Fighting (Feats and abilities are all either regular feats (PHB) or are from the Invisible Blade and Master Thrower Prestige Classes (CW). The only significant change to any of them is to extend the Unfettered Defense ability to include light armours. Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Disable device, Escape Artist, Gather Info, Hide, Intimidate, JUmp, LIsten, Move Silently, Open Locks, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope. ANy comments on it?
kaor 04-08-07, 11:03 AM	I like it. I think I've read somewhere that the invisible blade and master thrower were split off from an original 10 level class, so in a way you've just reconstructed it. A couple notes: 1) Your bab progression is a little different than most. Usually you get +5, +7, or +10. Did you really mean +8? 2) You list Reflex as the first save, usually they go F/R/W. Rewriting yours you get 4/7/3 for F/R/W. Did you really mean a +4 fort save? 3) Uncanny feint should be a swift action not a free one. I think the invisible blade had it errata'ed somehow. But you shouldn't be able to do it an infinite number of times a round. 4) How many skill points a level? 5) Change improved evasion to evasion. Or list evasion as a prereq. If they already have evasion it will become improved anyway if they get evasion from this class. You may get comments about it being unbalanced or something. Other than having entrance requirements that make more sense than what was published, the biggest difference between your 10 level class and taking the IB and MT as separate 5 levels is the two weapon fighting feats you throw in. No matter what you do, this class won't be as effective as an arcane trickster or other rogue/caster type combo. While it may step on fighter toes to some extent, I'm sure there are other ways to get the features you have here with some of that char opt mojo. Go with it, it has good flavor, and the sources of class imbalance are the full caster classes anyway. It won't make much difference in a game if this class is implemented, it isn't going to break anything.
dragonheart 04-08-07, 05:21 PM	1) Your bab progression is a little different than most. Usually you get +5, +7, or +10. Did you really mean +8? 2) You list Reflex as the first save, usually they go F/R/W. Rewriting yours you get 4/7/3 for F/R/W. Did you really mean a +4 fort save? 3) Uncanny feint should be a swift action not a free one. I think the invisible blade had it errata'ed somehow. But you shouldn't be able to do it an infinite number of times a round. 4) How many skill points a level? 5) Change improved evasion to evasion. Or list evasion as a prereq. If they already have evasion it will become improved anyway if they get evasion from this class. #1 yes I meant it to be different. THe class is a combo of fighter and rogue capabilities so I wanted a BAB better than a rogue's but worse than a fighter's. #2 Again yes I did for pretty much the same reason. THe PrC is a fighter/rogue combo but the emphasis is on rogue so I kept the rogue RS progression but improved the fighter FS and left the WS as the worst progression. #3 Your probably right that it should be a swift action but as I haven't seen any errata I kept it as listed in CW. #4 SKill points 6/level +IB Again this is a mix between the rogue and fighter to go with the class concept. Basically you give up a bit of rogue skill in terms of skills available and skill points anad the energy you would have spent on those goes into improving yoru fighting. #5 Giventhat rogues are the only ones that get the prerequisite Uncanny dodge (at least at low levels) and they get evasion before uncanny dodge it doesn't make sense to effectively to do other than as I've done it - you have to reach rogue 4 to qualify so you already have evasion so the PrC should be giving you Improved evasion not evasion. WHile the Arcane trickster is a nice class it is a caster combo class while this is entended to be a PrC for fighter/Rogues, Ranger/Rogues, Scout/Rogues, and perhaps Monk/ROgues not for casters. I chose to switch out some of the abilities of the Invisible Blade and put in hte 2 weapon progresson as the listed abilities seemed suboptimal to me and using 2 weapons when both are light and small is really what 2 weapon fighting was intended for (and what it is really good for in real life - there are very few folks able to weild 2 large weapons like long swords and not have them create more problems than they solve wihtout immense amounts of training.) Give this Prc a good short sword and the gloves of initnite daggers fromthe magic item compendium and watch out :D
Sylock 04-10-07, 02:51 PM	Holy crap is he high powered! That's like 18 feats worth of ... well feats and extra powers. If you took a fighter 10 / Rogue 10, yes a 20th level character, he would be so far below this guy (except from BAB and saves which are ok for a level 10) at level 10 that it would be sick. Just my opinion. Lets look at it this way. Feats: 2Weapon Fighting 2Weapon Defense Quickdraw Improved Evasion Deflect Arrows Improved 2 Weapon Fighting Feint Mastery Far Shot Critical Throw Greater 2 Weapon Fighting (which technically he couldn't have for at least 3 more levels because you need a BAB of +11) =========== 10 Feats. A level 10fighter/10rogue only gets 12 feats total +3D6 Sneak Attack vs the 10fighter/10 rogue +5d6 sneak attack 10 fighter/10 rogue gets Improved Uncanny Dodge Evasion and one extra feat Your level 10 gets those plus: Unfettered Defense (Light/no armour) 3 x Thrown Weapon Trick Uncanny Feint (Free Action) Then +6 skill points too? This would be the end all and be all of a rogue. Lose 2 skill points a level and +2d6 SA over 10 levels, to have a better +1 BAB, +1 Fort, +7 feats, +5 extra abilities. Take off about 8 feats and given them the choice (like ranger) of either the thrown weapon tricks or the Uncanny Feints. shrug
dragonheart 04-10-07, 05:10 PM	given how lousy feinting really is since your foe gets to add his BAB in when countering your bluff and you don't (scratch one skill point at least every level just to counter this so it has an ongoing cost forever) I may just remove the feints all together. as for:Greater 2 Weapon Fighting (which technically he couldn't have for at least 3 more levels because you need a BAB of +11) remember the PC would already be at least a f2/r4 wiht a BAB of +4 before entering the PrC so his total BAB would be +12 at level 16 and he would qualify. Given the low damage done by light weapons having extra attacks helps but is not as great as it sounds given the -2 to all attacks and the decreasing BAB for additional attacks - most later attacks simply won't hit and any that do are not going to be doing much damage. on the otherhand the PC doesn't have to keep making dex checks to keep from knocking things over, making noise and setting off missed traps with the losse end of a scabbard.(having tried wearing swords for special occasions I regognize just how unweildy the things can be and it goes into my games at least). yes it is feat heavy and could possibly loose a few - but which? It shouldn't be a matter of thrown or two weapon like the ranger - with small weapons they get used for both regularly while bows and swords do not forcing you to focus on one or the other. (unless yoru robinhood who seems to have been a bow focused ranger who used his free feats to take weapon focus & weapon specialization: long sword.
Sylock 04-11-07, 11:00 AM	Well for me, 10 levels should give at the most 5 feats and extra powers, so you should remove 13 of the others. You have _way_ to many feats and powers. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any other class or Prc with even 1/2 of the feats and powers you previously had listed. Keep: 2Weapon Fighting Improved 2 Weapon Fighting Critical Throw (add) Weapon Finesse (add) Weapon Focus Dagger (or any dual melee/missile weapon) Drop: 2Weapon Defense Quickdraw Improved Evasion Deflect Arrows Improved 2 Weapon Fighting Feint Mastery Far Shot Critical Throw Greater 2Weapon Fighting Unfettered Defense (Light/no armour) 3 x Thrown Weapon Trick Uncanny Feint (Free Action) Maybe limit this to just +2d6 instead of +3D6 Sneak Attack
kaor 04-11-07, 11:11 AM	Take a look at the Invisible Blade and Master Thrower from Complete Warrior. Except for the two weapon feats it's not much different. (And his class has 2 less BAB to boot) And to repeat something I posted earlier in this thread, it just won't make much of a difference. All of the non-caster classes have real problems in this game as levels get higher. And there are some damage reduction problems that are going to be 2x worse for this class, and 4x worse if the throwing aspect is used a lot. Edit: I mean that as in requiring all sorts of alchemical metal thowing items and weapons for each hand in the golf bag instead of the one two handed fighters and sword and boarders need. Someone already mentioned the feint mechanics as well. If you want to throw things your best bet is that thrower PRC from the Book of 9 Swords. Stronger than a straight rogue, but it won't unbalance the game. Still not as good as a druid or cleric.
dragonheart 04-11-07, 08:10 PM	Exactly (more or less) Sylock please take a look at the two 5 level classes this is based off of - you get at least one feat/ability every level for 10 levels. Unfortuqantely some of them don't really make much sense and seem to be WotC throwing in somehting useless to make it seem powerful. I've revised or removed the feats that don't really work and substituted in worthwhile feats for someone that has turned to small throwable weapons for a defense/offense. I've edited and changed the class as shown in the first post so you might want to review it before adding any new comments.