Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StoneSinger 03-09-08, 06:25 PM	Does anyone know anything about the original Dark Elves before they became Drow? All I know is that they were warlike, had brown skin, white hair, and I think I heard something about them having blue eyes. Im not entirely sure.
Shiftkitty 03-09-08, 07:34 PM	The Illthyri were said to be warlike. The Miyeritari, while having a strong military arm, were equally focused on magical matters. Look up these two names and you should find plenty of information. In the free downloads section of the main website is an Arcane Age supplement about Cormanthyr that has plenty of info about the Crown Wars and the various nations of elves and what regions they lived in, etc. There are other books, as well, but my library funding is somewhat limited right now, so all I have is that one and the Grand History of the Realms for dark elf info.
Shiftkitty 03-09-08, 07:44 PM	PS: IMO, the dark elves got screwed. I don't blame them for how they turned out. The Dark Disaster was uncalled for, as was the judgement that got passed that created the drow in the first place.
The Ubbergeek 03-09-08, 07:47 PM	ACtually...they where still the bad guys. An evil done unto them don't remove the bigger evils they may have done. This was war... and regretable acts happened. The relations between the Creator and His Daughter show it well - Corelion is a god that can admit that he may have been wrong (and a GH myth speak of precisely that about a mortal elf). of course, again, the story was more complex than heroic elves vs evil proto-drow.
Lord Karsus 03-09-08, 08:10 PM	-More information about the Dark Elves before the Descent of the Drow, and their settlements, can be found in Elves of Faerûn. There are also a few threads in around here about what the Ilythiiri and the other Dark Elves were like.
StoneSinger 03-10-08, 12:43 AM	Might I get a link to the other threads about this?
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 09:52 AM	Might I get a link to the other threads about this? -Do a search of the boards. Some still exist, and others have been archived.
Shiftkitty 03-10-08, 03:19 PM	ACtually...they where still the bad guys. An evil done unto them don't remove the bigger evils they may have done. Going on the limited info I have, the only thing the Miyeritari did to invoke anyone's wrath was to not go along with the elves who wanted to annex them. Is a desire to remain independent such a bad thing? After annexation and occupation, they had a right and a duty to their people and to their culture to fight back with everything they had. As far as the Illthyrii go, I've left that question open in my game because the only info I have is from surface elf sources. Victors aren't know for telling the truth. I don't think that condemning every dark elf regardless of guilt or innocence is anything less than a crime against elvenkind. Had just the Illthyrii gone down, that would have been one thing. But to have allowed the innocent to suffer so horribly along with the guilty has me questioning the "G" part of Corellon's CG alignment. Even is he uses the cop-out that he only gave the surface elves the power and what they did with it was their business, it's still a horrendous act. But that's how things got translated in my game. I use illithids and githzerai as the main intelligent bad guys in my campaign. The tensions between the surface elven nations and the drow (who have learned what a wonderful poison peace can be) is the catalyst for a smaller part of the campaign, nothing that requires a major overhaul of too much.
The Ubbergeek 03-11-08, 12:06 AM	Good guys can do evil. That is life. And this was war... He seems to have regretted it sincerly - he would have kept Eilistraee around. SHE left by herself, to join the Drow in their fate. May have been the Chaos in him, too - the pulsion, the emotion.
Shiftkitty 03-11-08, 12:53 PM	As a god with his DR, you'd think he would have shown some of that regret by giving them a path to redeem themselves instead of leaving them to rot. If "It was war" is a good enough justification for the actions of the surface elves, why isn't it a good enough justification for the drow? Perhaps it's a matter of whether or not an individual DM believes the drow psyche is a result of nature or nurture. I play it as nurture. A drow child raised in a non-drow society will not turn evil.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 02:57 PM	As a god with his DR, you'd think he would have shown some of that regret by giving them a path to redeem themselves instead of leaving them to rot. -He did, in a roundabout way. Eilistraee. Perhaps it's a matter of whether or not an individual DM believes the drow psyche is a result of nature or nurture. I play it as nurture. A drow child raised in a non-drow society will not turn evil. -I agree. Lisa Smedman, in Storm of the Dead seemed to attempt to say it is nature, and not nurture, in some cases (to which I think the attempt failed, but...).
Khaelieth 03-11-08, 03:01 PM	Good guys can do evil. That is life. And this was war... He seems to have regretted it sincerly - he would have kept Eilistraee around. SHE left by herself, to join the Drow in their fate. May have been the Chaos in him, too - the pulsion, the emotion. She chose to do so herself, to help guide the 21% of the good dark elves. As for ilythiiri not being evil - Worshipping Ghaunadar, Lolth/Lloth and Vhaeraun qualifies in general. Attornash is an example of nasty dark elves. They also practiced ritual sacrifice. They didn't purposefully condemn all; it was a side-effect of the High Magic used to invoke it.
Shiftkitty 03-11-08, 03:11 PM	I'm not sure Eilistraee is an apporopriate apology. I admit I don't know much about her, and I hate to bring in a RW analogy, but it seems to me to be similar to Bin Laden apologizing for the WTC by allowing Americans to become Muslims. Especially with the case of the Miyeritar, they counted on the Seldarine for help but were apparently abandoned. Are the drow (Elistraee's or otherwise) even allowed in elf heaven? (I can't recall the name, Arvandor? Something like that?)
Shiftkitty 03-11-08, 03:21 PM	They didn't purposefully condemn all; it was a side-effect of the High Magic used to invoke it. And Corellon couldn't find it in his heart to help the innocent? Maybe reverse the effect? Or maybe one of the other elven deities? I just can't get it to click.
Khaelieth 03-11-08, 03:38 PM	I'm not sure Eilistraee is an apporopriate apology. I admit I don't know much about her, and I hate to bring in a RW analogy, but it seems to me to be similar to Bin Laden apologizing for the WTC by allowing Americans to become Muslims. Especially with the case of the Miyeritar, they counted on the Seldarine for help but were apparently abandoned. Are the drow (Elistraee's or otherwise) even allowed in elf heaven? (I can't recall the name, Arvandor? Something like that?) Eilistraee isn't an apology. She decided to go herself; she'd hit Corellon with an arrow, probably guilt tripping, and knew the Drow would need a light to guide them. The 21% good drow are Eilistraeeans, without her, they would be worshipping the evil drow gods. As far as i know, Eilistraee spends most her time in Arvandor, her Divine Realm being in the Demonweb Pits. Presume her souls go with her. As for undoing High Magic; it's not exactly easy. it was the Elves that decided to do it, not Corellon, he only had the final word. High Magic has the tendency to go awry, history's riddled with it; The Sundering, Jamdaath, King-Killer Star etc. Most of the Dark Elves were evil; that the good ones got hit was an accident. And when you've nuked someone and realise "damn, i hit some civilians," it's a bit too late to undo it. As for the Miyeritari, it's stated in LEoF that the ilythiiri were just using Aryvandaar's attack as an excuse to attack someone who had nothing to do with it; that book's impartial and not written by elves. Hope that makes sense but you're more than welcome to debate or correct me, i'm enjoying this=)
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 03:54 PM	And Corellon couldn't find it in his heart to help the innocent? Maybe reverse the effect? Or maybe one of the other elven deities? I just can't get it to click. -For all we know, it could have been 'all or nothing'. The 21% good drow are Eilistraeeans, without her, they would be worshipping the evil drow gods. -It's not that 21% of the Drow are good, per se, but that 21% are not necessarily evil. As far as i know, Eilistraee spends most her time in Arvandor, her Divine Realm being in the Demonweb Pits. Presume her souls go with her. -Yeah, her realm in the Demonweb Pits is really nothing more than an afterthought, and seems to be collapsing, or being 'corrupted' by Lolth's malevolent influence. High Magic has the tendency to go awry, history's riddled with it -It's not that Elven High Magic goes wrong often, but that the mentions of it being used with no signifigant effect (The creation of Moonstone Palace, for example) are few and far.
Khaelieth 03-11-08, 04:00 PM	-It's not that 21% of the Drow are good, per se, but that 21% are not necessarily evil. -It's not that Elven High Magic goes wrong often, but that the mentions of it being used with no signifigant effect (The creation of Moonstone Palace, for example) are few and far. Hmmm... Always thought it said 21% were good. Oh well. The most powerful High Magic spells don't usually work flawlessly is what i'm trying to get across. But as you said, could've been all or nothing, but we don't know that. For all we know, "Curse all dhaerow (traitor)" could've been "Curse all Dark Elves" by accident. Big difference. But can be applied to magic in general though, Karsus' Folly's called Folly for a reason.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 04:04 PM	The most powerful High Magic spells don't usually work flawlessly is what i'm trying to get across. -They work like any other Epic spell.
Khaelieth 03-11-08, 04:08 PM	Yes, but this is fluff, not game mechanics. And High Magic and Epic Magic was different, and still is, fluff wise, but same mechanics nowadays (aside from Mythals). You could probably devise a spell though. Not sure if "Turn all evil Sun Elves into drow" would work that well, as the alignment system's flawed. At least, i wouldn't allow it.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 04:13 PM	Yes, but this is fluff, not game mechanics. And High Magic and Epic Magic was different, and still is, fluff wise, but same mechanics nowadays (aside from Mythals). -'Fluff wise', only Elves can use it, is a blessing by Corellon Larethian, and the rest of the Seldarine, blah, blah, blah... You could probably devise a spell though. Not sure if "Turn all evil Sun Elves into drow" would work that well, as the alignment system's flawed. -Said spell exists, but it's on an individual basis. It turns an Elf into any other Elven subrace.
Khaelieth 03-11-08, 04:16 PM	You know i meant -the- spell that turned a whole subrace into something different. Changing race is easy; the rituals in Savage Species. Don't need epic magic for that. You strike me as too smart to misread that=)
Zanan 03-11-08, 08:17 PM	Regarding the initial request ... do check out Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves hereabouts: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads ... it gives you the most comprehensive (and free) rundown of the early Realms and Elves, including the Ilythiiri. BTW, while we can try time and again to analyze the drow or the dark elves and their (wrong-)doings, we should never loose the perspective here. Drow were created as an evil monster race and meant to be evil. The history that we have just gave us a few bits and pieces to settle them into the setting and its history. Much of it lies in the darkness and starting to hypothize on the truth of these few scrabs, not to mention to discern the true nature of the drow / dark elves may not be that worthwhile a venture. Especially if bring in these artificial judgements / values about good and evil deeds. But that'S just me.
Shiftkitty 03-11-08, 09:14 PM	Eilistraee isn't an apology. She decided to go herself; she'd hit Corellon with an arrow, probably guilt tripping, and knew the Drow would need a light to guide them. The 21% good drow are Eilistraeeans, without her, they would be worshipping the evil drow gods. As far as i know, Eilistraee spends most her time in Arvandor, her Divine Realm being in the Demonweb Pits. Presume her souls go with her. As for undoing High Magic; it's not exactly easy. it was the Elves that decided to do it, not Corellon, he only had the final word. High Magic has the tendency to go awry, history's riddled with it; The Sundering, Jamdaath, King-Killer Star etc. Most of the Dark Elves were evil; that the good ones got hit was an accident. And when you've nuked someone and realise "damn, i hit some civilians," it's a bit too late to undo it. As for the Miyeritari, it's stated in LEoF that the ilythiiri were just using Aryvandaar's attack as an excuse to attack someone who had nothing to do with it; that book's impartial and not written by elves. Hope that makes sense but you're more than welcome to debate or correct me, i'm enjoying this=) I'm enjoying it, as well! But what justification could there be for the Miyeritari (not the Illythiiri) to have suffered? And what of non-evil drow who do not want to worship Eilistraee? I still believe that as a diety of his level, Corellon could have, and should have, done a lot more for the innocent. (That's the problem with nukes; they're usually launched by mortals without divine help in any form :). ) Lord Karsus That would be one of the problems with the alignment deal, then, wouldn't it? An 'All or nothing' stunt that will hurt the innocent as well as the guilty doesn't seem in line with the 'Good' part of the alignment, regardless of the catalyst. They could have singled out the Illtythiiri, couldn't they? Instead of just "all dark elves"? Of course, a nagging group conscience and a shameful personal acknowledgement that nobody in the Crown Wars was acting any worse than anyone else is probably why the elves don't talk about it. After all these generations, I imagine there's way too much bad blood for either side to make the first step toward reconciliation.
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 10:43 PM	Doesn't help that out of guilt, both sides lie to themselves and to their children. Probably because more often then not, it's easier to live with a lie then it is to live with the truth. Probably why I can accept Drow and Wood Elf/Wild Elf pairings easier then Drow and anyother Elf. While they all are unlikely, outside of rape that is, A Half-Drow-Half-Wood/Wild Elf is easier to believe then Moon, Star, Sun, ect.
Zanan 03-12-08, 05:59 AM	Lord Karsus That would be one of the problems with the alignment deal, then, wouldn't it? An 'All or nothing' stunt that will hurt the innocent as well as the guilty doesn't seem in line with the 'Good' part of the alignment, regardless of the catalyst. They could have singled out the Illtythiiri, couldn't they? Instead of just "all dark elves"? The problem is, that according to lore, they actually intended only to hit the Ilythiiri (mark the spelling!) ... but much like the Sundering, the Dark Disaster, and the Jhaamdath (sp?) catastrophe, it went out of hand. Hence it did hit all dark elves, not just the mean ones. BTW, there is no reason to believe that all Ilythiiri were actually evil. But that is as useful a discussion as is debating whether orcs and drow are born "evil".
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 07:30 AM	I'm enjoying it, as well! But what justification could there be for the Miyeritari (not the Illythiiri) to have suffered? And what of non-evil drow who do not want to worship Eilistraee? I still believe that as a diety of his level, Corellon could have, and should have, done a lot more for the innocent. (That's the problem with nukes; they're usually launched by mortals without divine help in any form :). ) Lord Karsus That would be one of the problems with the alignment deal, then, wouldn't it? An 'All or nothing' stunt that will hurt the innocent as well as the guilty doesn't seem in line with the 'Good' part of the alignment, regardless of the catalyst. They could have singled out the Illtythiiri, couldn't they? Instead of just "all dark elves"? Of course, a nagging group conscience and a shameful personal acknowledgement that nobody in the Crown Wars was acting any worse than anyone else is probably why the elves don't talk about it. After all these generations, I imagine there's way too much bad blood for either side to make the first step toward reconciliation. Miyeritar wasn't the majority of Elves, it was Aryvandaar. The atrocities we're sure of happened were committed by Aryvandaar and ilythiir. We know: –11,700 The Second Crown War begins. Ilythiir launches surprise attacks against Orishaar, an ally of Aryvandaar. –11,600 The Ilythiiri burn Syòrpiir to the ground. –11,500 Thearnytaar and Eiellûr declare war on Ilythiir and attempt to prevent the Ilythiiri from advancing north. Lolth sends the balor lord Wendonai to seduce a high Ilythiiri clan into her service. The church of Lolth rises to prominence. –11,450 Thearnytaar and Eiellûr invade Ilythiir. More than half of their forces are slain by the corrupt, demongranted magic of the dark elves. –11,400 Eiellûr is razed by Ilythiiri dark elves and traitorous wild elves. –10,500 The Dark Disaster reduces Miyeritar to a dead wasteland. The Crown Wars halt for a time while the elves reassess what they have done. –10,450 The Fourth Crown War begins. The Ilythiiri openly begin worshiping evil gods such as Ghaunadaur and Lolth. –10,100 Ilythiir destroys Shantel Othreier. Meanwhile, supposedly in retaliation for Aryvandaar’s aggression against the Miyeritari, the dark elves of Ilythiir rose up and attacked their nearest enemies in the smaller kingdom of Orishaar. The stated premise for the conflict was weak, considering that the moon elves of Orishaar had no connection with Aryvandaar beyond a trade alliance, and the Ilythiiri had little to do with the beleaguered elves of Miyeritar. The only place ilythiir gets attacked is 11500, where it's a retaliationary attack. Within four decades after the Dark Disaster, the Ilythiiri utterly destroyed the realm of Shantel Othreier—the closest outpost of Vyshaantar power. In the words of the Song of the Sundered Crown, Ilythiiri high mages “called stones from the sky,” and “caused the earth to boil and the trees to scream.” Refugees from the doomed kingdom of Shantel Othreier told tales of Ilythiiri atrocities that made the actions of the Aryvandaar for the past several centuries seem tame by comparison. The most powerful high mages and clerics of the Seldarine joined together to perform a ritual that altered the Ilythiiri’s bodies to match the corruption of their souls. Although the conclave had intended to punish only the Ilythiiri, the ritual altered all the dark elves of Faerûn except those who had already altered their own forms. The corrupted dark elves were then driven underground by the combinedmight of the united elven nations. They were obviously trying to hit the ilythiiri with it, but as stated above, hit all Dark Elves instead of just ilythiiri. info quoted from LEoF - buy it, it's a great sourcebook!
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 09:47 AM	Lord Karsus That would be one of the problems with the alignment deal, then, wouldn't it? An 'All or nothing' stunt that will hurt the innocent as well as the guilty doesn't seem in line with the 'Good' part of the alignment, regardless of the catalyst. -That's war. You don't curb yourself from a guaranteed victory, when a couple of innocents stand in the way. The carpetbombing of Berlin killed how many innocents? But, it struck the heart of the Nazi-German 'Empire', a grave blow to Hitler's war machine. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed home many innocents? But, it stopped Imperial Japan in it's tracks, ending World War II. They could have singled out the Illtythiiri, couldn't they? Instead of just "all dark elves"? -Like I said before, we don't know. It's quite possible that they couldn't have, and that it was either 'All-or-Nothing'. The Elven community has previously done something like this, concerning the Dracorage Mythal. BTW, there is no reason to believe that all Ilythiiri were actually evil. -As was stated, they predominantly worshipped evil deities (Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur, Lolth), and were led by evil individuals. In my book, that makes a nation evil. Just like the Vyshaanti, led by evil people, were evil.
Zanan 03-12-08, 10:01 AM	-As was stated, they predominantly worshipped evil deities (Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur, Lolth), and were led by evil individuals. In my book, that makes a nation evil. Just like the Vyshaanti, led by evil people, were evil. Based on a few scraps in even fewer books. Telling us a history of the nation's leaders and warmongers, not essentially the whole story though. Was the quintessential sun elven Vyshaanti archer evil? Was the average dark elf peasant evil? Do we actually know for sure whom they worshipped? Whether they all wholeheartedly revelled in sacrifcies or genocide galore? Point is, we (Germans, amongst others) cannot even agree whether one could label the normal German army in WW II "evil" and/or at fault for what happened back then, especially in contrast to the deeds by the diehard Nazis of the SS et al. And that despite minutely detailed accounts of the history of WW II. Wouldn't it be nigh ridiculously presumptuous and superficial to say something definite about people of the ancient past, people we have no real knowledge about? (Matter of factly, I don't like these utterly hypothetical debates, since, as I said, we speak about a artificial race meant to be evil.)
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 10:10 AM	Was the quintessential sun elven Vyshaanti archer evil? Was the average dark elf peasant evil? Do we actually know for sure whom they worshipped? Whether they all wholeheartedly revelled in sacrifcies or genocide galore? -Perhaps not, but I didn't claim they all were. Their leaders espoused evil. The majority of the empire's populace worshiped evil deities. Like I said above, the Ilythiiri Empire is evil. Was each and every Dark Elf evil? Of course not. Was each and every German evil, during World War II? Of course not. Was each and every Japanese individual evil, during World War II? Of course not. Point is, we (Germans, amongst others) cannot even agree whether one could label the normal German army in WW II "evil" and/or at fault for what happened back then, especially in contrast to the deeds by the diehard Nazis of the SS et al. -As part of the official government of Germany at the time, the entity that was the German Army was evil, yes. Were the individuals composing that army evil? No, most probably weren't. Do you see the distinction I am making, here, and with Ilythiir? Wouldn't it be nigh ridiculously presumptuous and superficial to say something definite about people of the ancient past, people we have no real knowledge about? -We have plenty of information on this matter to debate with. (Matter of factly, I don't like these utterly hypothetical debates, since, as I said, we speak about a artificial race meant to be evil.) -Yes, you mention this time and time again. It's not going to stifle intelligent and informed debate, such as what is going on right now.
GothicDan 03-12-08, 10:28 AM	Was the quintessential sun elven Vyshaanti archer evil? Was the average dark elf peasant evil? Do we actually know for sure whom they worshipped? Whether they all wholeheartedly revelled in sacrifcies or genocide galore? And note that we have been specifically told by one of the past authors (Elaine) that the Vyshaanti as individuals and a whole were not Evil, and that the primary Evil NPCs were those of the Vyshaanti family itself, not everyone of the Vyshaantar Empire. I have no qualms labeling the majority of Vyshaanti as Evil.
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 10:44 AM	-As part of the official government of Germany at the time, the entity that was the German Army was evil, yes. Were the individuals composing that army evil? No, most probably weren't. Do you see the distinction I am making, here, and with Ilythiir? The Wehrmacht were just fighting for their country; imo, they weren't any more evil than the U.S. Army or the British Army. The Wehrmacht were probably a more "professional" army than the other armies of their time. The generals even tried doing away with Hitler because he was ruining the country. But the attacks of the ilythiiri army "Refugees from the doomed kingdom of Shantel Othreier told tales of Ilythiiri atrocities that made the actions of the Aryvandaar for the past several centuries seem tame by comparison" doesn't exactly scream they were normal soldiers. But as none of the sourcebooks (which haven't been written by elves or the victors) mention the other elves (aside from the Vyshantaar Empire) committing atrocities, we can assume they didn't. Also, does anyone know if ilythiiri were close to winning the Crown Wars? Just thinking it could've been a last resort.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 10:54 AM	The Wehrmacht were just fighting for their country; imo, they weren't any more evil than the U.S. Army or the British Army. The Wehrmacht were probably a more "professional" army than the other armies of their time. The generals even tried doing away with Hitler because he was ruining the country. -The SS were a part of the official German Army. The Gestapo, by proxy of being a subdivision of the SS, was part of the German Army. The German Army was a tool of Hitler. Thus, I consider it evil, as an entity. But as none of the sourcebooks (which haven't been written by elves or the victors) mention the other elves (aside from the Vyshantaar Empire) committing atrocities, we can assume they didn't. -Correct. Most of the information that we have on the Crown Wars stem from Lost Empires of Faerûn , which is written in the omniscient 3rd person format. Also, does anyone know if ilythiiri were close to winning the Crown Wars? Just thinking it could've been a last resort. -Depends on which Crown War we're talking about.
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 11:06 AM	-The SS were a part of the official German Army. The Gestapo, by proxy of being a subdivision of the SS, was part of the German Army. The German Army was a tool of Hitler. Thus, I consider it evil, as an entity. -Depends on which Crown War we're talking about. The S.S. wasn't a part of the Wehrmacht. They worked with them and usually did what they were told, but they were in the end controlled by the Nazi party. As far as i know, they hated each other's guts. The 4th, obviously. They've so far destroyed Shantel Othreier, Thearnytaar, Eiellûr and Syòrpiir. Only the Vyshantaar Empire was left, who'd lost Shantel Othreier just prior to the spell being cast. Was perhaps cast as a last gambit.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 11:11 AM	The S.S. wasn't a part of the Wehrmacht. They worked with them and usually did what they were told, but they were in the end controlled by the Nazi party. As far as i know, they hated each other's guts. -"Although nominally under the leadership of Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler, a political and internal security appointee, the Waffen-SS saw action throughout the Second World War under de facto operational control of the Wehrmacht. During the war it grew to 39 divisions that served as so-called elite combat troops alongside the regular army." -If not actually, then technically. I was always under the assumption that they were actually, however. The 4th, obviously. They've so far destroyed Shantel Othreier, Thearnytaar, Eiellûr and Syòrpiir. Only the Vyshantaar Empire was left, who'd lost Shantel Othreier just prior to the spell being cast. Was perhaps cast as a last gambit. -Just making sure. -Well, the tide of war ebbs and flows, so, it is likely that Ilythiir came close to winning, just as it's opponents might have, and eventually did.
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 11:18 AM	-"Although nominally under the leadership of Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler, a political and internal security appointee, the Waffen-SS saw action throughout the Second World War under de facto operational control of the Wehrmacht. During the war it grew to 39 divisions that served as so-called elite combat troops alongside the regular army." -If not actually, then technically. I was always under the assumption that they were actually, however. -Just making sure. -Well, the tide of war ebbs and flows, so, it is likely that Ilythiir came close to winning, just as it's opponents might have, and eventually did. Just gonna clear this up so we can head over to discuss the Drow again!=D So do we then think it was a last gambit? The Schutzstaffel (German for "Protective Squadron"), abbreviated SS- or (Runic)- was a major Nazi military organization under Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. The SS grew from a small paramilitary unit to an elite force that served as the Führer's "Praetorian Guard," the Nazi Party's "Shield Squadron" and a force with as much political influence as the regular German armed forces. Built upon the Nazi racist ideology, the SS, under Heinrich Himmler's command was primarily responsible[citation needed] for the crimes against humanity perpetrated during the Second World War. Initially smaller than the Ernst Röhm's Sturmabteilung (Storm Troopers abbreviated SA), the SS grew in size and power due to its exclusive loyalty to Hitler, as opposed to the SA, which was seen as semi-independent and a threat to Hitler's hegemony over the party. Under Himmler, the SS selected and trained its cadre as per the "Aryan" racist ideology. Developing elite police and military units such as the Waffen SS, Himmler also used the SS to develop an order of men claimed to be superior in racial purity and abilities than other Germans and national groups, the model for the Nazi vision of a "master race." During the World War, SS units operated alongside the Army and in the final stages of the war, exercised dominance over the Army to eliminate perceived threats to Hitler's power while implementing his strategies despite the increasingly failing war effort. The SS was responsible for the vast majority of war crimes perpetrated under the Nazi regime, including the Holocaust. As part of its race-centric functions, the SS oversaw the isolation and displacement of Jewish people from the populations of Germany and conquered territories, seizing their assets and imprisoning them in concentration camps and ghettos where they would be used as slave labor, pending extermination. Chosen to implement the Nazi "Final Solution" for Jews and other groups deemed "inferior," the SS carried out the enslavement, torture and killing of approximately twelve million people. Most victims were Jews and/or Slavs, but a significant number of victims included homosexuals, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, journalists, Communists and German civilians who were seen as threats to the regime. Foreseeing Nazi defeat in the war, a significant number of SS personnel organized their escape to South American nations. Many others were captured and prosecuted by Allied authorities at the Nuremberg Trials for war crimes, and absconding SS criminals were the targets of police forces in various Allied nations, post-war Germany, Austria and Israel.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 11:22 AM	So do we then think it was a last gambit? -A possibility. While we know a lot about the era, we don't know many of the specifics, and Ilythiir's political state would be a major detail that would be both important to figuring that out, and something we are relativley clueless about.
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 11:23 AM	-A possibility. While we know a lot about the era, we don't know many of the specifics, and Ilythiir's political state would be a major detail that would be both important to figuring that out, and something we are relativley clueless about. Yeah, anyone over at Candlekeep that could help?
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 11:25 AM	Yeah, anyone over at Candlekeep that could help? -I wouldn't know, but they'd be just as in the dark about it as we are. The details just don't exist.
Shiftkitty 03-12-08, 11:29 AM	The carper bombing didn’t have a deity handy who could have reversed or prevented the aftermath. I see and agree with the acceptance of collateral damage to end a war as early as possible, but I find the inaction of the Seldarine inexcusable. (Yes, as a DM, I feel fit to judge the gods…)
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 11:34 AM	The carper bombing didn’t have a deity handy who could have reversed or prevented the aftermath. I see and agree with the acceptance of collateral damage to end a war as early as possible, but I find the inaction of the Seldarine inexcusable. (Yes, as a DM, I feel fit to judge the gods…) The collateral damage wasn't foreseen; did the Seldarine foresee it? We don't know, all we know is the spell didn't work as planned. As far as they're involved though, the ilythiiri had abandoned them in favour of the Dark Seldarine. Why should they care about someone who willingly turned away from them? That Eilistraee joined them was in itself an act of kindness.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 11:37 AM	I see and agree with the acceptance of collateral damage to end a war as early as possible, but I find the inaction of the Seldarine inexcusable. (Yes, as a DM, I feel fit to judge the gods…) -Do we have the deific discussions of the Seldarine readily at hand? No. Thus, like so many other things, we can't be so definite in judging things one way or the other. For all we know, the matter could have theoretically been pulling the Seldarine to the breaking point, with different deities having different views on what to do.
Zanan 03-13-08, 06:16 AM	- Do you see the distinction I am making, here, and with Ilythiir? For the debate at hand? No. -We have plenty of information on this matter to debate with. I gather that we have a difference in the understanding of the meaning of "plenty" then. -Yes, you mention this time and time again. It's not going to stifle intelligent and informed debate, such as what is going on right now. Well, I think it is better for the likes of myself to refrain from such a discussion then and only pore a bit of cold water on it from time to time. Khaelith They've so far destroyed Shantel Othreier, Thearnytaar, Eiellûr and Syòrpiir. Only the Vyshantaar Empire was left, who'd lost Shantel Othreier just prior to the spell being cast. Was perhaps cast as a last gambit. That was war. The Vyshaan were equally destructive (even though they did it in an "elven way" - as opposed to the dark elves) and the Dark Disaster was essentially genocide galore. But out of these wars and the meddling with "dark" powers and deities, can we really declare the average Vyshaantar sun or Ilythiiri dark elf was be default "evil"? We do not exactly speak of a race like the drow, who are definitely born into an perceived "evil" society and thus will no doubt switch over to such an alignment themselves - at least at a time when the PC count them as canon fodder.
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 10:30 AM	For the debate at hand? No. -The entity as a whole is evil, but the individuals composing it are not necessarily evil. Ilythiir, as a whole, was evil. The residents of Ilythiir weren't necessarily evil. I gather that we have a difference in the understanding of the meaning of "plenty" then. -Obviously so. And, even if we didn't, there's no reason to cease debate. Well, I think it is better for the likes of myself to refrain from such a discussion then and only pore a bit of cold water on it from time to time. -Well, go ahead, then. It's your perogative. But out of these wars and the meddling with "dark" powers and deities, can we really declare the average Vyshaantar sun or Ilythiiri dark elf was be default "evil"? -Like I said before, the average Vyshaanti Elf, or the average Ilythiiri Elf might not have been evil, but the Vyshaanti Empire, and Ilythiir were both evil. The leader of a nation is the face of a nation. If a leader, and his minions, are evil, the entire entity is considered evil. Nazi Germany, as mentioned above. Most Germans weren't evil people. Hilter, Himmler, and the rest of the upper eschalons of the Nazi party who ran the country were. Thus, Nazi Germany was an evil entity, even though most Germans themselves were not evil.
Straploknight 03-27-08, 10:25 PM	-Do we have the deific discussions of the Seldarine readily at hand? No. Thus, like so many other things, we can't be so definite in judging things one way or the other. For all we know, the matter could have theoretically been pulling the Seldarine to the breaking point, with different deities having different views on what to do. That would make for some intersting reading - perhaps a Dragon article or something like it.
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 11:02 PM	That would make for some intersting reading - perhaps a Dragon article or something like it. -Being as that the most Seldarine is going to cease to exist- they are aspects of other, Human deities- this is highly unlikely.
Straploknight 03-28-08, 12:16 AM	To bad, that could have made for some interesting elements like maybe why Fenmarel distances himself so much. Maybe he was the lone voice that said "hey why are you going to damn all the dark elves instead of the truly guilty!?"
Lord Karsus 03-28-08, 12:16 AM	To bad, that could have made for some interesting elements like maybe why Fenmarel distances himself so much. -The reason why he does this, for the most part, is in his entry in Demihuman Deities.
Straploknight 03-28-08, 12:29 AM	Sadly I dont have it, just Faiths & Pantheons and Fenamrel's entry is very light.
Lord Karsus 03-28-08, 12:39 AM	-You can, then, read all about it in Elves of Faerûn...Hint, hint.
Straploknight 03-28-08, 12:40 AM	beat you to it, peerless intrepidity FTW!
Lord Karsus 03-28-08, 12:58 AM	-Excellent!
Skeptical Clown 04-15-08, 11:25 AM	I think it's pretty dangerous to try and compare the deeds of a fictional fantasy race to the very real atrocities of the 20th century. Fantasy concepts of Good and Evil and race can lead to very unpleasant and uncomfortable places if we're not careful. Elves, drow, dwarves, gnomes, and even orcs, while not human, are still recognizable as people rather than monsters, and setting up a worldview where certain people are inherently Good while others are inherently Evil is distasteful, if not downright despicable. More to the point, it's certainly not a game setting I'd want to play in. I think it's much more aesthetically pleasing if we assume that people in the Forgotten Realms have their own wills, and that while a certain amount of behavior might be hereditary, their alignment is primarily a product of environment and choice. In the same spirit, it's probably best to assume that the gods are fallible, and that things like the fall of the dark elves was tragic and ill-handled. As a logical conclusion, we might assume that the fall of the drow to their current state is at least partly the fault of the desperate and heavy-handed tactics of their cousins in addition to the cultural failings of the drow ancestors. I don't think that this is just a more aesthetically pleasing interpretation, but also a more useful one for running adventures and telling stories. If the dichotemy we have is pure Good vs Evil, then there isn't much drama in that.
Shiftkitty 04-15-08, 03:22 PM	I do enjoy throwing things out of the ordinary from time to time. Hack and slash an orc? Why not? They're evil, aren't they? But I recently stuck a LG PC with a situation. He hates orcs. Despises them. Well, the orc mother who left her newborn daughter on his doorstep didn't know that. She just left the bundle with a poorly written note that the infant's father wanted a son for his firstborn and wanted to kill the daughter. It took him (the PC) a little bit to get used to the idea that orcs might actually give a damn about their young to some extent. I haven't figured out which way I'm going to have this develop, but so far he's successfully defended "Usti"* from her birth father's determined efforts to dispose of his firstborn. As for the PC, "I never thought I'd use the words 'innocent' and 'orc' to refer to the same person..." *"Usti" is the Cherokee word for "little". I tend to use Native American languages for exotic sounding names.
Khaelieth 04-15-08, 04:02 PM	i play them so you're not always sure who the father is;p
Shiftkitty 04-15-08, 07:48 PM	So if you beat a drow at a game and do your victory dance saying "Who's your daddy? Who's your daddy?" he's most likely going to shrug and say "Does it matter?" :D
Khaelieth 04-16-08, 07:34 AM	nono, orcs! Orcs aren't civilised; they've got breeding pits, not divans/beds/trampolines/bouncy castles or other places of recreation! ;p Drow are perfectly civilised. Orcs are like monkeys. With weapons.
SmartPaladin 04-17-08, 07:26 PM	Drow are perfectly civilised. Orcs are like monkeys. With weapons. "Guns don't kill people. Apes with Guns kill people." :rolleyes:
Khaelieth 04-17-08, 07:40 PM	"Guns don't kill people. Apes with Guns kill people." :rolleyes: Uncivilised apes. Only good orc is a dead orc. The only orc better than a good orc, is a dying orc telling you where to find his herd (or whatever orcs call their families).