Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StarkRavenMad 09-03-07, 02:30 PM	Ok folks, I'm stumped. One of my players is obsessed with the idea of running a paladin of The Doombringer. Being a LN deity, he technically fits the "one step alignment" rule, but I'll be damned if I can fiugre out how to make this work. I can hardly imagine a paragon of righteousness running around the Realms exacting "poetic justice" on folks. Just sounds like murder-for-hire to me. Am I way off base? He's a good player, and has really helped make our sessions memorable, so I want to reward him for all of his creativity, but I'm not sure I can make it jive. Any ideas?
MarkHall 09-03-07, 05:19 PM	He only takes out evil-doers? Think the Lone Ranger... he takes out the bad guys who have done someone wrong, getting justice/revenge for those who cannot do it themselves.
MerrikCale 09-03-07, 08:31 PM	I agree with MarkHall, its relatively straight forward. If he's a good player I think he can relate the LG alignment with the vengenance aspect against evil-doers.
BadCatMan 09-03-07, 08:43 PM	Paladins of Hoar are less about law and more about justice. If the Tyrrans give up because they can't find evidence, the Hoarran will take care of it himself, regardless of evidence. If orcs raid a village, he'll go slaughter some orcs in return. If bandits brutally kill some people, he'll brutally kill them back. They're a bit more smite-happy than the average paladin, but probably a bit less stiff and rigid too. They are darker, and more likely to fall if/when they screw up. Eye for an eye justice does that. But if he's a good player and you trust him, then you could probably expect him to pull it off well.
StarkRavenMad 09-03-07, 10:22 PM	[QUOTE=BadCatMan;13656288] They're a bit more smite-happy than the average paladin, but probably a bit less stiff and rigid too. They are darker, and more likely to fall if/when they screw up. Eye for an eye justice does that. QUOTE] I think that's the part I'm unsure of. There's a very thin line between justice and vengance, and I'm not sure if we'll agree when he's crossed it. Makes for some interesting role-play opportunities, which our group enjoys. His concept is quite a bit like you said...darker, heavier, a little smite-happy. Sounds like it's not as big of an issue as I'm making it out to be. Maybe I'm too wrapped up in the iconic paladin to see it for the possibility. I'll put some more thought to it. Thanks for the reply.
MerrikCale 09-03-07, 10:39 PM	I think that's the part I'm unsure of. There's a very thin line between justice and vengance, and I'm not sure if we'll agree when he's crossed it. Makes for some interesting role-play opportunities, which our group enjoys. interesting role play= OK in my book. Its a feasible concept that experienced role-players can really get into
Vladhslavh 09-03-07, 11:30 PM	In my opinion, the Gray Guard (complete scoundrel) should fit well this concept.
SmartPaladin 09-04-07, 03:19 AM	In my opinion, the Gray Guard (complete scoundrel) should fit well this concept. As would the Shadowbane Inquisitor from Complete Adventurer.
Valten 09-04-07, 07:04 AM	Grayguard and shadowbane inquisitor are both awesome styles the player can take, if not the actual class your player can take later :).
capnvan 09-04-07, 07:07 AM	He only takes out evil-doers? Think the Lone Ranger... he takes out the bad guys who have done someone wrong, getting justice/revenge for those who cannot do it themselves. On the other hand, my reading of Hoar is focused more on the vengeance aspect. To be more specific, Hoar is the patron of vengeance, regardless of the alignment of the person seeking revenge or being "venged." :uh-huh: I also have difficulty conceiving of a paladin in the same church as an assassin (listed first under worshippers in Faith & Pantheons). Not to mention that Tyr, arguably the foremost choice of your stereotypical Realms paladin, is indicated as actively attempting to turn Hoar towards a more LG worldview. I understand that he's listed as having LG clerics, but... I guess I just conceive of Hoar as acting without particular concern toward the "morality" (at least in an alignment sense) of an act, as long as it is perpertrated as an act of vengeance. And that seems to conflict with my conception of what a paladin ought to be. In short, vengeance is not the same as justice. And paladins seem to be for Truth, Justice, and the, uh, Realmsian way. :hides: Do with that what you will.
BadCatMan 09-04-07, 08:31 AM	There are two sides to Hoar. In the north, Hoar is benign, the god of poetic justice. Indeed, the Fellowship of Poetic Justice is dedicated to both Hoar and Tyr, and consists of bards and 2e crusaders. In the south, he is Assuran, a deity of justice from Unther, particularly an older, eye-for-an-eye form of justice. It's still law and justice, but much more archaic and alien than what we're used to these days. Assuran is the aspect most associated with vengeance. So you could get away with focusing on the benign Hoar, and toning down the meaner Assuran. The dogma of Hoar/Assuran specifically warns against falling to evil. "Violence will meet violence and evil will pay back evil, but good will also come to those who do good." Indeed, a follower who gets carried away is highly like to be visited with retribution in return. Although the faith accepts both LG and LE priests, they need not actually meet. The clergy is loose with few temples and many loners. And LE assassins and blackguards still operate by the law, and can still do good deeds. They just enjoy their work too much.
Valgard 09-04-07, 08:32 AM	On the other hand, my reading of Hoar is focused more on the vengeance aspect. To be more specific, Hoar is the patron of vengeance, regardless of the alignment of the person seeking revenge or being "venged." :uh-huh: I also have difficulty conceiving of a paladin in the same church as an assassin (listed first under worshippers in Faith & Pantheons). Not to mention that Tyr, arguably the foremost choice of your stereotypical Realms paladin, is indicated as actively attempting to turn Hoar towards a more LG worldview. I understand that he's listed as having LG clerics, but... I guess I just conceive of Hoar as acting without particular concern toward the "morality" (at least in an alignment sense) of an act, as long as it is perpertrated as an act of vengeance. And that seems to conflict with my conception of what a paladin ought to be. In short, vengeance is not the same as justice. And paladins seem to be for Truth, Justice, and the, uh, Realmsian way. :hides: Do with that what you will.Technically speaking, Hoar isn't the god of revenge but retribution. That means, revenge is usually bound to a bloodthirsty obssession that a lawful character never has. You have to see it more like that the evil-doers must be punished, it's not even necessary they are meant to be killed. The Justicar (Complete Warrior) takes that idea and also makes a good backup prestige class, in addition to Gray Guard and Shadowbane Inquisitor.
capnvan 09-04-07, 04:56 PM	Technically speaking, Hoar isn't the god of revenge but retribution. That means, revenge is usually bound to a bloodthirsty obssession that a lawful character never has. You have to see it more like that the evil-doers must be punished, it's not even necessary they are meant to be killed. Well, to quote from Faiths & Pantheons (p.97): "Portfolio: Revenge, retribution, poetic justice" That aside, however, my thoughts turn towards the more basic premise - yes, Hoar is clearly lawful, but is he really good? I find it surprising that LG clerics are part of his clergy, but I find the idea of a paladin devoted to him very difficult. The OP was trying to find a way to justify (for his player) a paladin of Hoar. My concern echoes his - it does sound, to me, too much like murder for hire, or other kinds of behavior that seem inconsistent with paladinhood. If the player is looking for a patron of justice, Tyr remains the obvious choice. If he's looking for ways to spread his role-playing wings, perhaps the PC is rougher, or less even-handed than Tyr's church would prefer. Maybe he's further "out on the edge" than your typical paladin, and he's regularly in danger of falling from paladinhood. Perhaps, as a result of his actions, he'll need to engage in multiple redemptive quests. And, of course, if he's looking to play a paladin of Hoar, and you're uncomfortable, there's always the Divine Champion PrC. That would also be a reasonable fit, with a good number of the paladin-ish class abilities as well. I see a devotee of Hoar saying, "You killed 3 people in that town. You're going down." And the paladin as, "You're going downtown." Yes, oversimplified, but the the former is more concerned with the end result, the comeuppance of the evildoer, while the latter is more concerned that the process is pure, with the presumption that, if the process is followed properly, the evildoer will receive his comeuppance. Just my take. YMMV.
SmartPaladin 09-04-07, 05:39 PM	Interestingly enough, I don't see Vengeance and Justice as being that far apart. Do not some of those who seek vengeance wish for fitting, even poetic justice upon those who had wronged them? But sadly, sometimes the law cannot do anything. Their hands are tied as it were. So, if a Paladin of Tyr is unable to act to bring the vile cretin to justice, but the Paladin of Hoar/Assuran could? Well... Deep down, I think maybe a Paladin of Tyr might be pleased. Because the wicked were punished. There is a reason Hoar is loved by the commoners and the downtrodden. There is a time for Justice, and when Justice is unable to act, maybe then, it's a time for Vengeance. Am I saying going out and seeking Vengeance in real life is okay? No, it's not. But in the Realms, as a follower of Hoar, then I would say yes. If Justice is unable to act, or act swift enough. Clerics and Paladins, as well as maybe anyone else who follows are told to go out, seek injustice, find out what happens, then decide if Vengeance is called for. Make it very clear to your player, that sometimes they should use their commonsense in determining whether or not they should strike now, or see if Justice can handle the problem. If it's in the town, village, city or whatnot. If it's bandits or whatever, then yeah, the Hoarite should gear up, mount up, and go bring swift, terrible and righteous Vengeance. Side note: I'm currently playing a LN Half Elf Cleric of Hoar/Rogue/Shadowdancer. So, yeah... :P
StarkRavenMad 09-04-07, 10:03 PM	I think Capnvan summarized my concerns nicely. Truthfully, though, I think I'm going to go ahead with it and let him try it out. My approach to running a campaign has pretty much always been to give my players enough room to do what they want (read: enough rope to hang themselves with). It should be relatively simple to run a few encounters where the line between vengance and justice are a little clearer, just to let him develop more of a sense of his character. (Bandits, assassins and other assorted "obvious" evildoers.) But then build up the moral ambiguity as we progress. And I think that's what he's looking for; the challenge of running a character whose choices and beliefs are often at odds with one another. I'm really excited to see where he goes with it, but I think he's got his work cut out for him. Ultimately, it seems to come down to balancing the edicts and tenents of the faith with the paladin's devotion to lawfullness and goodness; to what lengths will he be willing to go to achieve retribution? Should be interesting. You guys have given me a lot of good feedback. Thanks for all the great posts.
MerrikCale 09-04-07, 11:34 PM	isn't Hoar also the God of Poetic Justice?
BadCatMan 09-04-07, 11:42 PM	Yeah, he even has bards following him. Actually, Hoar is very similar to St Cuthbert from Greyhawk (well, the PHB is what I'm looking at). LN, revenge, retribution, punishing those who break the law. He doesn't even mention justice, and he has plenty of paladins.
capnvan 09-05-07, 08:32 AM	Actually, Hoar is very similar to St Cuthbert from Greyhawk (well, the PHB is what I'm looking at). LN, revenge, retribution, punishing those who break the law. He doesn't even mention justice, and he has plenty of paladins. Well, there are a couple of differences. St. Cuthbert does not have "revenge" in his portfolio, nor does he have LE clergy, unlike Hoar. Probably more to the point (and something I hadn't paid any attention to until now, mostly 'cos I haven't played in Greyhawk in a really long time), is that until this edition, St. Cuthbert was LG (with LN tendencies, at most). Not having paid attention to Greyhawk in a while, don't ask me why they made the change, but that's the most likely rationale for his paladins (players with paladins of St. Cuthbert might have been miffed if they were suddenly stripped of their paladinhood). On the other hand, Helm (LN) is listed in Faith & Pantheons as having paladins, of course, and LE, LN, and LG clergy. So, sure, there's your rationale for the paladin of Hoar. This is probably why no one listens to me. :rant:
capnvan 09-05-07, 09:16 AM	Interestingly enough, I don't see Vengeance and Justice as being that far apart. Do not some of those who seek vengeance wish for fitting, even poetic justice upon those who had wronged them? But sadly, sometimes the law cannot do anything. Their hands are tied as it were. So, if a Paladin of Tyr is unable to act to bring the vile cretin to justice, but the Paladin of Hoar/Assuran could? Well... Deep down, I think maybe a Paladin of Tyr might be pleased. Because the wicked were punished. There is a reason Hoar is loved by the commoners and the downtrodden. There is a time for Justice, and when Justice is unable to act, maybe then, it's a time for Vengeance. Am I saying going out and seeking Vengeance in real life is okay? No, it's not. But in the Realms, as a follower of Hoar, then I would say yes. If Justice is unable to act, or act swift enough. Clerics and Paladins, as well as maybe anyone else who follows are told to go out, seek injustice, find out what happens, then decide if Vengeance is called for. Make it very clear to your player, that sometimes they should use their commonsense in determining whether or not they should strike now, or see if Justice can handle the problem. If it's in the town, village, city or whatnot. If it's bandits or whatever, then yeah, the Hoarite should gear up, mount up, and go bring swift, terrible and righteous Vengeance. Well, admittedly, OP has already come to his own conclusions, so we've kind of moved beyond the point, but, I feel I have to comment, because I think your conception of what makes a paladin is wildly out of sync with my own, and I'd argue, the intention behind the class itself. Let's start with the paladin of Tyr, because I think you mistook my earlier post oversimplified. The paladin is not "required," per se, to bring evildoers to a court, or something like that. As a DM, I might argue that simply slaughtering a fugitive from law enforcement in the field, when the paladin had the means to capture the miscreant and return him for public judgment, is a failure by the paladin. But under other circumstances, there is no prohibition against the paladin enforcing Law and Good with an on-the-spot execution. However, there's a vast ethical difference between justice and revenge. I have difficulty with Hoar's LN alignment anyway, because I would describe the portfolio of Revenge as inherently chaotic (something a paladin must eschew). Most pertinently, revenge is individualistic (or at least one sided, as in one family, one clan, one nation, etc.). It does not benefit society as a whole, in that it does not promote a lawful, systematic process for conflict resolution in a society. That makes revenge antithetical to what a paladin is supposed to stand for. As for Hoar's popularity among commoners, et al. all I can really state is that many things appeal to the lowest common denominator. That doesn't mean that those things are ethical, lawful, or good. Feeding people to the lions made for very popular entertainment. So does Jerry Springer. As a DM, I'd argue that neither of those is proper for a paladin. And finally, I would definitely quibble with the idea that paladins are sent out to decide whether vengeance is appropriate. Vengeance, for a paladin, is never appropriate. Justice, as an expression of the lawful and the good, is the only appropriate response. Take the case of a paladin whose family is killed by orcs while she's away adventuring. She mounts up, rushes out, finds the orcs, and slays them. Is that vengeance or justice? Well, it depends on her motivations. If she killed those orcs in order to 1. punish them for murder, and, arguably 2. to prevent them from committing more of the same, then, that is just and appropriate. But if she killed them to get even, because they hurt her, or if she kills them in a cruel manner, or leaves the wounded to die rather than put them out of their misery, if she means them to suffer, then she's committing an act of vengeance, and has broken with what is lawful and good. In short, it may be alright for a follower of Hoar to bring swift vengeance to the wrongdoers. However, a paladin can not go down that path without losing what it means to be a paladin. :angel: I heartily recommend (along with pretty much everything else he's written) an article by Roger Moore, called "It's Not Easy Being Good," originally from Dragon #51, although it may have been reprinted in a Best of collection. It definitely shaped my ideas on what a paladin ought to be, and how one ought to be played. A paladin is intended to be more than just a LG fighter with a few cleric-based class skills. In my mind, they're difficult, but rewarding, when played properly.
SmartPaladin 09-05-07, 09:29 PM	Well, admittedly, OP has already come to his own conclusions, so we've kind of moved beyond the point, but, I feel I have to comment, because I think your conception of what makes a paladin is wildly out of sync with my own, and I'd argue, the intention behind the class itself. Let's start with the paladin of Tyr, because I think you mistook my earlier post oversimplified. The paladin is not "required," per se, to bring evildoers to a court, or something like that. As a DM, I might argue that simply slaughtering a fugitive from law enforcement in the field, when the paladin had the means to capture the miscreant and return him for public judgment, is a failure by the paladin. But under other circumstances, there is no prohibition against the paladin enforcing Law and Good with an on-the-spot execution. However, there's a vast ethical difference between justice and revenge. I have difficulty with Hoar's LN alignment anyway, because I would describe the portfolio of Revenge as inherently chaotic (something a paladin must eschew). Most pertinently, revenge is individualistic (or at least one sided, as in one family, one clan, one nation, etc.). It does not benefit society as a whole, in that it does not promote a lawful, systematic process for conflict resolution in a society. That makes revenge antithetical to what a paladin is supposed to stand for. As for Hoar's popularity among commoners, et al. all I can really state is that many things appeal to the lowest common denominator. That doesn't mean that those things are ethical, lawful, or good. Feeding people to the lions made for very popular entertainment. So does Jerry Springer. As a DM, I'd argue that neither of those is proper for a paladin. And finally, I would definitely quibble with the idea that paladins are sent out to decide whether vengeance is appropriate. Vengeance, for a paladin, is never appropriate. Justice, as an expression of the lawful and the good, is the only appropriate response. Take the case of a paladin whose family is killed by orcs while she's away adventuring. She mounts up, rushes out, finds the orcs, and slays them. Is that vengeance or justice? Well, it depends on her motivations. If she killed those orcs in order to 1. punish them for murder, and, arguably 2. to prevent them from committing more of the same, then, that is just and appropriate. But if she killed them to get even, because they hurt her, or if she kills them in a cruel manner, or leaves the wounded to die rather than put them out of their misery, if she means them to suffer, then she's committing an act of vengeance, and has broken with what is lawful and good. In short, it may be alright for a follower of Hoar to bring swift vengeance to the wrongdoers. However, a paladin can not go down that path without losing what it means to be a paladin. :angel: I heartily recommend (along with pretty much everything else he's written) an article by Roger Moore, called "It's Not Easy Being Good," originally from Dragon #51, although it may have been reprinted in a Best of collection. It definitely shaped my ideas on what a paladin ought to be, and how one ought to be played. A paladin is intended to be more than just a LG fighter with a few cleric-based class skills. In my mind, they're difficult, but rewarding, when played properly. I can understand, and agree with most of your points. Though, for myself, I had a few fictional characters to shape my idea of a Paladin. Like the Mimbrate Knight Mandorallen from The Belgariad & The Malloreon, as well as the Cyrinic Knight Bevier of Arcium from The Elenium & The Tamuli, both series by David Eddings. I also had Joel Rosenberg series Mordred's Heirs, who's title for it's first book was Paladins. Part of me also feels, that is a Paladin were to enact vengeance upon someone, then they punishment should fit the crime. You don't cut off the feet of a pickpocket after all. You take the hand, or maybe break the fingers. Does that sound cruel? Yes. But it is also seen as justice. So one could view it as Poetic Justice. If one were so inclined. Oh, I had take one quiz, to see what FR deity I was, I came up as Tyr. Everytime I've taken, answering honestly. I come up as Tyr. I'm not sure I get it ether. Though there is a line that is said often in Joel Rosenberg's Mordred's Heirs, "Justice tempered by mercy, mercy tempered by justice." Makes me wonder, if Vengeance were to be tempered by both, does it become Retribution?
Xaean 09-06-07, 08:17 PM	While he doesn't fit the traditional paladin archetype, I think paladins of Hoar, while very rare might still be possible. Vengeance is concept that can easily be interpreted as either good or evil, either an act of justice or a lack of mercy. Hoar's paladins are likely the most untypical paladins of Faerun and yes, I agree with those who like to see them as Greyguards. They are also suited for the Shadowbane Inquisitor class, at least mechanically. Hoar might actually be the only deity that might have both paladins and blackguards in his service, with paladins most common in Unther avenging those harmed by the Church of Tiamat and by the Mulhorandi occupiers; and blackguards among the Sons of Hoar in Aglarond - in both cases their is the irony of a lawful church working against the local government.
SgtAnjay 09-07-07, 07:11 PM	Modern cultures tend not to see "eye for an eye" as good. Fine and well. That does not mean another culture couldn't see eye for an eye as good and not be correct. Especially in a world where the number of species ready, willing, and able at any given moment to kill you and violate everything you've ever loved for the sake of a fun afternoon number in the dozens or more, without even bringing into play all the twisted individuals in your own species. They did something; something which fits is done to them. There is a certian undeniable appeal there, a visible and clear balancing of the scales. You commited murder; you serve so and so many years in prison, parole after so many, so and so can be lessened for good behavior, etc. Is that balanced? Who knows. When a Hoarite enacts justice, it is clear and understandable, and that appeals to the commoner. That balancing of the scales (especially with a touch of irony or humor) is what Hoar is all about. Plus, there are any number of Lawful Neutral dieties throughout D&D who put the "less" in ruthless who inspire paladins. Going with the Realms, Helm is the obvious frontrunner there. Also, Lathander gladly embraces acts of chaos which would work towards the good, but no one seems to mind his paladins. Then of course there's Sune, a Chaotic Good goddess with paladins. Paladins seem to be more about whether the diety backs what that order believes in than about the order being a slave to their dieties' methods. Then there's the concepts Hoar stands for, many of which are perfect for a paladin, though some seem ready to push aside and ignore them solely because the word "revenge" is part of his portfolio. Yes, the word revenge may be in his portfolio, and his worshippers or clergy can act out for pure revenge. That doesnt mean that that's what Hoar stands or asks for. What Hoar stands for and asks out of his followers is stated in his dogma. So lets look at the dogma: "Uphold true and fitting justice" If that doesn't beg a paladin to devote himself to Hoar, I dunno what would. "Do not fall into pursuing evil acts for evil's sake, for that way is seductive and leads only to one's downfall." So he doesn't like evil. So far, he likes justice and hates evil. Paladin, anyone? "Violence will meet violence and evil will pay back evil." This doesn't just mean that his clergy are violent and evil to violent and evil offenders, it also means that if his clergy engage in violence and evil with no just cause then violence and evil will bounce right back at them; in other words its best to avoid violence and evil. Still working well within the scope of the paladin. "All punishments must fit the crime." So, for example, an order of paladins could devise a strict code which details what punishments fit which crimes (you know, them being lawful and orderly and all), helping clearly point out when a paladin is acting righteously and when they're acting as a loose canon. "Revenge is sweetest when sharpened with irony." This statement speaks to his role as patron of poetic justice, the "bittersweet humor" Tyr seeks to unlock, and the clearest indicator that Hoar isn't full of, nor is he preaching, malice and hate. As for his policies being chaotic....even "law" isn't a black and white term lacking in grey area, and law does not equal good or righteous. Hence the existance of Lawful Evil. Laws can't cover every wrongdoing, and in protecting the innocent sometimes the law protects the guilty. Several have brought up the fact that sometimes strictly following the law ties the hands of those hunting criminals. Hoar's clergy can act against lawful evil acts (despite being inherently lawful), and can act when the law is silent, or binds other agents of the law. But this is not because hate and evil are ok, or because the Doombringer's clergy are chaotic. To more fully quote a bit of Hoar's dogma I used above, he expressly states "uphold true and fitting justice to follow the spirit, not the letter, of the law". It's that which allows them to act in ways that may seem chaotic. But they're not ignoring the law, nor acting against it: they can follow what the laws intended even when the letter of the law or its agents prove fallible, which is inevitable. And its another reason the common and downtrodden love Hoar: those in power can abuse their power and still be lawful, thus holding justice at bay, but that doesn't protect them from the Doombringer's justice. In summation: I think I need to roll up a paladin :D
SmartPaladin 09-08-07, 12:31 AM	Modern cultures tend not to see "eye for an eye" as good. Fine and well. That does not mean another culture couldn't see eye for an eye as good and not be correct. Especially in a world where the number of species ready, willing, and able at any given moment to kill you and violate everything you've ever loved for the sake of a fun afternoon number in the dozens or more, without even bringing into play all the twisted individuals in your own species. They did something; something which fits is done to them. There is a certian undeniable appeal there, a visible and clear balancing of the scales. You commited murder; you serve so and so many years in prison, parole after so many, so and so can be lessened for good behavior, etc. Is that balanced? Who knows. When a Hoarite enacts justice, it is clear and understandable, and that appeals to the commoner. That balancing of the scales (especially with a touch of irony or humor) is what Hoar is all about. Plus, there are any number of Lawful Neutral dieties throughout D&D who put the "less" in ruthless who inspire paladins. Going with the Realms, Helm is the obvious frontrunner there. Also, Lathander gladly embraces acts of chaos which would work towards the good, but no one seems to mind his paladins. Then of course there's Sune, a Chaotic Good goddess with paladins. Paladins seem to be more about whether the diety backs what that order believes in than about the order being a slave to their dieties' methods. Then there's the concepts Hoar stands for, many of which are perfect for a paladin, though some seem ready to push aside and ignore them solely because the word "revenge" is part of his portfolio. Yes, the word revenge may be in his portfolio, and his worshippers or clergy can act out for pure revenge. That doesnt mean that that's what Hoar stands or asks for. What Hoar stands for and asks out of his followers is stated in his dogma. So lets look at the dogma: "Uphold true and fitting justice" If that doesn't beg a paladin to devote himself to Hoar, I dunno what would. "Do not fall into pursuing evil acts for evil's sake, for that way is seductive and leads only to one's downfall." So he doesn't like evil. So far, he likes justice and hates evil. Paladin, anyone? "Violence will meet violence and evil will pay back evil." This doesn't just mean that his clergy are violent and evil to violent and evil offenders, it also means that if his clergy engage in violence and evil with no just cause then violence and evil will bounce right back at them; in other words its best to avoid violence and evil. Still working well within the scope of the paladin. "All punishments must fit the crime." So, for example, an order of paladins could devise a strict code which details what punishments fit which crimes (you know, them being lawful and orderly and all), helping clearly point out when a paladin is acting righteously and when they're acting as a loose canon. "Revenge is sweetest when sharpened with irony." This statement speaks to his role as patron of poetic justice, the "bittersweet humor" Tyr seeks to unlock, and the clearest indicator that Hoar isn't full of, nor is he preaching, malice and hate. As for his policies being chaotic....even "law" isn't a black and white term lacking in grey area, and law does not equal good or righteous. Hence the existance of Lawful Evil. Laws can't cover every wrongdoing, and in protecting the innocent sometimes the law protects the guilty. Several have brought up the fact that sometimes strictly following the law ties the hands of those hunting criminals. Hoar's clergy can act against lawful evil acts (despite being inherently lawful), and can act when the law is silent, or binds other agents of the law. But this is not because hate and evil are ok, or because the Doombringer's clergy are chaotic. To more fully quote a bit of Hoar's dogma I used above, he expressly states "uphold true and fitting justice to follow the spirit, not the letter, of the law". It's that which allows them to act in ways that may seem chaotic. But they're not ignoring the law, nor acting against it: they can follow what the laws intended even when the letter of the law or its agents prove fallible, which is inevitable. And its another reason the common and downtrodden love Hoar: those in power can abuse their power and still be lawful, thus holding justice at bay, but that doesn't protect them from the Doombringer's justice. In summation: I think I need to roll up a paladin :D *pats head* That 'ill do SgtAnjay, that 'ill do. :D
TomCosta 09-08-07, 04:42 PM	Sign me up with those who think a paladin of Hoar sounds like a fun character to play. That said, I believe it's incumbant on the player to create a plausible interepretation of his faith for this to work, and that said, the capable folks of this board seem to have handled that work nicely.
MerrikCale 09-09-07, 11:17 PM	Modern cultures tend not to see "eye for an eye" as good. I think there are many "modern" cultures out there with that exact view.
SgtAnjay 09-10-07, 02:36 PM	I think there are many "modern" cultures out there with that exact view. Sorry, meant modern western cultures. The point still stands, though.
The_Shaman 09-10-07, 04:31 PM	I guess it's a bit late to chime in, but here goes: Hoar's dogma can seem somewhat alien to paladins, and definitely paladins of Hoar - if they exist - are few and far between. Yet this does not mean that they do not exist. Unfortunately, Realms-lore tends to be somewhat contradictory - more on that later. Perhaps this would indicate that they simply have a different structure than most others. The paladins of Tyr are a formal order; paladins of Hoar are more likely to be warriors who have earned the favor of Hoar through their actions. Probably many people do not consider them paladins - but for game mechanics, they get similar abilities. In their outlook, differences between them and Tyrrans might be somewhat trivial - F&P hints at that, noting that Tyr tries to influence Hoar towards his own worldview. Aside from that, while they aren't as predominant as the major paladin groups, there are few reasons not to. Have you heard of the paladins of Jergal? I hadn't - yet sure as can be, Magic of Faerun lists spells that are exclusive to their order.