| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| SmartPaladin09-18-07, 06:55 PM | How come you never seem to hear or run into one? She's within the one step rule. Is it because her cause doesn't seem to be one noble enough for a Paladin? Or does it have more to do with all of the Rangers and Druids in her worship? This had always been something I wondered. I think having a Paladin could be useful to her, the Paladin could be working outside of the wood and be doing the diplomat thing. Getting the lord or whatever to cut back on encroach into the forest, maybe help setting up places with the Rangers and Druids on lands where it's safe to cut down these trees, and hunt these animals. Then help the Rangers and Druids with replanting the land. Thoughts? |
| Zandilar09-18-07, 07:25 PM | Heya, How come you never seem to hear or run into one? She's within the one step rule. Is it because her cause doesn't seem to be one noble enough for a Paladin? Or does it have more to do with all of the Rangers and Druids in her worship? This had always been something I wondered. <snip> Thoughts? Just because a deity is within one step of LG, doesn't mean they'll necessarily have paladins. Even back in 2E, Mielikki didn't have paladins. Rangers take that role amongst Mielikki's clergy. After all, she is the goddess of Rangers. :) Chauntea, on the other hand, definitely has paladins. |
| Faraer09-18-07, 07:52 PM | Why doesn't Christianity have imams and dervishes? The 'one-step' rule is a simplified generalization of what happens in the Realms, not a principle that determines what happens in the Realms. |
| SmartPaladin09-18-07, 07:53 PM | I understand, but I was still wondering why? A Ranger fills the role, yes. I'll give you that. But I still like a Paladin of Mielikki could still work and make sense. As a Paladin, he/she could work for a peaceful balance between the "civilized" world and the "wilderness". The Ranger is after, ill equipped in matters of diplomacy. Not saying they couldn't do it, but as Paladin's tend to come from a "civilized" world, I would think most lords and kings would listen to them easier, then they would a Ranger or Druid. I also think it'd be a bit disconcerting for any brigand or bandit hiding in the wood if for what they thought was a Ranger coming before them in plan view with sword drawn was actually a Paladin about to smite you all. I donno, I was just toying around with a character of mine, a LG Tiefling Ranger of Mielikki (7)/Rogue (4)/ Paladin (6) of Mielikki. Side-note, getting him to become a Paladin was easy. Because he started Neutral Good. And how was I able to do that? By doing something different. Just about every Tiefling you tend to hear about is bitter because of what they are, maybe even had been driven from their home by their own kin. Well, this Tiefling had it easy. He grew up in the woods outside of the town, his parents accepted him for who he was, not what, and he had a baby sister to spoil. Living in the woods made becoming a faithful of Mielikki easy, he often said he was born for it, because he already had the horns. Did he catch crap for being a Tiefling in the outside world? Yes, but he had made peace with what he was a long time ago. And what viciousness he may feel from his fiendish bloodline, he only unleashes on his foes. Okay, now I'm rambling... Sorry... |
| Borris09-18-07, 07:59 PM | Nothing prevents you from playing a paladin of Mielikki, but she doesn't have any paladin order in her clergy, and the members of her church most likely won't know how to train anyone to fight as a paladin. Such a character is most likely to be a former paladin of another deity who changed his patron deity for Mielikki. |
| MerrikCale09-18-07, 08:45 PM | I understand, but I was still wondering why? A Ranger fills the role, yes. I'll give you that. But I still like a Paladin of Mielikki could still work and make sense. So enjoy. Like you said, it follows the rules. |
| SmartPaladin09-18-07, 09:53 PM | I guess if I want a Paladin order of Mielikki, I would have to start one myself eh? Maybe in a kind of obvious place. Like a keep or chapter house right at the border between the wood and the "plains" as it were. A Paladin could start training others, those who would follow Mielikki, or anyother non-evil wilderness deity, a Ranger could even give instruction, it could also work as a safe haven for those fleeing from Blighters, as well as worshipers of Malar, that kind of thing. |
| Zandilar09-19-07, 04:23 AM | Heya, I guess if I want a Paladin order of Mielikki, I would have to start one myself eh? Maybe in a kind of obvious place. Like a keep or chapter house right at the border between the wood and the "plains" as it were. A Paladin could start training others, those who would follow Mielikki, or anyother non-evil wilderness deity, a Ranger could even give instruction, it could also work as a safe haven for those fleeing from Blighters, as well as worshipers of Malar, that kind of thing. Umm... For a start: What MerikCale said. You are free to ignore lore if you like. But from a Lore point of view... If your character wants to be a paladin, he would have to be called to the role by the goddess. Mielikki is the goddess of Rangers. If she were to call someone to her service, it would be as a Ranger or a Druid (in a pinch). A Paladin is not a wilderness character. They don't harmonize well with nature, you can tell this simply by what abilities they're granted. None of their powers are nature type - unlike a Ranger. While a Ranger can track and move through the forest without leaving a trace of their passing, a Paladin, without any training in any other class, can't. (If this doesn't dissuade you, then I offer this advice: the best way to play a "Paladin" of Mielikki would be a Ranger with the Divine Champion PrC. Otherwise, it's your game... Play what you want.) |
| SmartPaladin09-19-07, 11:50 AM | Heya, Umm... For a start: What MerikCale said. You are free to ignore lore if you like. But from a Lore point of view... If your character wants to be a paladin, he would have to be called to the role by the goddess. Mielikki is the goddess of Rangers. If she were to call someone to her service, it would be as a Ranger or a Druid (in a pinch). A Paladin is not a wilderness character. They don't harmonize well with nature, you can tell this simply by what abilities they're granted. None of their powers are nature type - unlike a Ranger. While a Ranger can track and move through the forest without leaving a trace of their passing, a Paladin, without any training in any other class, can't. (If this doesn't dissuade you, then I offer this advice: the best way to play a "Paladin" of Mielikki would be a Ranger with the Divine Champion PrC. Otherwise, it's your game... Play what you want.) I'm well aware of what kind of worshipers Mielikki draws. I'll admit that a Paladin of Mielikki doesn't make much sense. But even Sune doesn't make much sense to me (Lady likes physical beauty a little to much for my tastes). Maybe if the Paladin's of Sune were the ones who'd wander around the temple covered in scares, as a sign of how much they love their Goddess and willing to sacrifice in the name of love and beauty. Maybe make substation levels for a Paladin of Mielikki, maybe grant them some more "nature" powers. Though I could see remove disease working as a "nature" power. No law says you couldn't use it on a rabid animal. Beats putting it down, and wouldn't Mielikki go for that? I may try kicking around the idea of a Paladin of Mielikki Order substation levels. And to those who think I'm crazy. Of course, what sane man is fearless? And as we all know, part of being a Paladin is fearless. :P |
| The_Shaman09-19-07, 02:42 PM | I'd say that one of the major reasons for the existence of the Divine Champion PrC is to substitute paladins for most deities. Aside from that... Well, there isn't an established order of Mielikki-worshipping paladins, and that's that. However, you can include a paladin of Mielikki in your campaign if you want. I'd say that there are probably a few who receive the goddess' specific blessing (mechanically the same as a few paladin levels) but probably no more than 10 or so. Whether they'd be recognized as paladins is another topic. You can use the devoted tracker from CAdv and make it a ranger/paladin multiclass, or use the Pious Templar PrC from CDivine. |
| Fabius Maximus09-19-07, 04:29 PM | Ta da! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rp/20031203a) ;) |
| Turin7109-19-07, 04:57 PM | Maybe a little off topic but Mielikki does have her own sacret order exclussively of multiclass Ranger/Druids. (can't remember their names but they had a name...I think it was Shadowers....might be way off though) There is more information on the faith and pantheons book of 2E. Members of this order were Mielikki's elite enforcers of her will. |
| Zandilar09-19-07, 07:52 PM | Heya, I'm well aware of what kind of worshipers Mielikki draws. I'll admit that a Paladin of Mielikki doesn't make much sense. But even Sune doesn't make much sense to me (Lady likes physical beauty a little to much for my tastes). Maybe if the Paladin's of Sune were the ones who'd wander around the temple covered in scares, as a sign of how much they love their Goddess and willing to sacrifice in the name of love and beauty. Okay... One last time, and lets pray to Tymora I'm clearer with what I'm trying to say. (The bolding and caps below are for extra emphasis, not because I'm angry or anything... maybe a little annoyed since you seem to keep missing my point.) Mielikki won't CALL a paladin to her service. Why would she do that when she has the perfect servant in Rangers? (She's the Goddess of RANGERS not Ranger-wannabe-Paladins, and she's definitely not the goddess of "balance between civilization and nature" - if you want that kind of deity, you're barking up the wrong tree (forgive the pun). Try CHAUNTEA.) That established, we need to remember people don't wake up one day and say "I want to be a Paladin... now which god? Time to go god shopping... Ooh, I like Mielikki, I think I'll be a Paladin of Mielikki." They wake up one day with unwavering certainty that Tyr or Torm or Mystra or (yes) even Sune (or any deity who has paladins) wants them to serve as a Paladin. Or they wake up with unwavering certainty that Mielikki wants them as a Ranger (most especially) or a Druid. (Side note: Drizzt is a complete anomaly as far as divine casting classes go. I wish they'd take his Ranger levels and replace them with Scout or something that doesn't require a deity.) On Paladins of Sune. Think of the romantic Knight, the Knight that exalts the ideal of Courtly Love above all other virtues. Once you do that, Sunite Paladins make a whole lot of sense (they are also perfect protectors for beautiful things and places, and they are efficient killers of ugliness, such as undead). Sune gets treated with a very rough stick, I can't tell you how many times I've seen people confuse or conflate Sune with Sharess, completely forgetting that Sune is the goddess of Love, Beauty, and Passion - three things that are far deeper than people seem to give them credit for (all three are also exemplars of Courtly Love, by the way (Passion can be completely nonsexual, after all)). As for Paladins of Sune walking around with scars? Nope. Not in a world with magical healing, and where a worshiper of Sune would be very careful about such things... I'm sure there are custom Sunite spells that heal scars (that formed due to natural healing), and Sunite cure spells would heal wounds such that scars wouldn't form in the first place. But having said all that, you can feel free to do what you'd like in your game. (I just want to be crystal clear on what I'm trying to say, and have been frustrated that I don't seem to have made my point.) |
| Turin7109-20-07, 11:42 AM | I understand, but I was still wondering why? A Ranger fills the role, yes. I'll give you that. But I still like a Paladin of Mielikki could still work and make sense. As a Paladin, he/she could work for a peaceful balance between the "civilized" world and the "wilderness". The Ranger is after, ill equipped in matters of diplomacy. Not saying they couldn't do it, but as Paladin's tend to come from a "civilized" world, I would think most lords and kings would listen to them easier, then they would a Ranger or Druid. I also think it'd be a bit disconcerting for any brigand or bandit hiding in the wood if for what they thought was a Ranger coming before them in plan view with sword drawn was actually a Paladin about to smite you all. I donno, I was just toying around with a character of mine, a LG Tiefling Ranger of Mielikki (7)/Rogue (4)/ Paladin (6) of Mielikki. Side-note, getting him to become a Paladin was easy. Because he started Neutral Good. And how was I able to do that? By doing something different. Just about every Tiefling you tend to hear about is bitter because of what they are, maybe even had been driven from their home by their own kin. Well, this Tiefling had it easy. He grew up in the woods outside of the town, his parents accepted him for who he was, not what, and he had a baby sister to spoil. Living in the woods made becoming a faithful of Mielikki easy, he often said he was born for it, because he already had the horns. Did he catch crap for being a Tiefling in the outside world? Yes, but he had made peace with what he was a long time ago. And what viciousness he may feel from his fiendish bloodline, he only unleashes on his foes. Okay, now I'm rambling... Sorry... I'm almost sure that I read somewhere that Paladins have to start as Paladins and cannot even multiclass and continue as a Paladin unless some special conditions are met, and this is not common. In a way, Paladins are DnDs equivalent of a Jedy Knight in that they are chosen at a young age by any given church or temple and taken from their family for training. At least thats the way I think it works. The great thing about DnD is that it is your game so it is your rules.... or at least your DMs Rules |
| Borris09-20-07, 08:24 PM | Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities. The rules only state that, once you've begun taking levels in the paladin class, you can't gain level in any other class without preventing you from taking additionnal paladin levels. Nowhere does it state that you have to start as a paladin at 1st-level. You could gain 10 levels as a rogue, and then take a 1st-level of paladin. But if you go back to rogue levels, you'll never increase your paladin levels beyong that. |
| Zandilar09-20-07, 11:52 PM | Heya, The rules only state that, once you've begun taking levels in the paladin class, you can't gain level in any other class without preventing you from taking additionnal paladin levels. Nowhere does it state that you have to start as a paladin at 1st-level. You could gain 10 levels as a rogue, and then take a 1st-level of paladin. But if you go back to rogue levels, you'll never increase your paladin levels beyong that. FRCS does list a number of exceptions, and I think the web enhancement for Faiths and Pantheons goes into even more detail. ie: Paladins of Mystra may freely multiclass to an arcane spellcasting class. Paladins of Torm are free to multiclass to one other class. (Mielikki doesn't have paladins in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, unless it's house ruled in... If I were to do that (which I wouldn't, but that shouldn't stop anyone else! ;)), I'd say a Paladin of Mielikki could freely multiclass to Ranger.) |
| GothicDan09-21-07, 12:58 AM | Paladin of Mielikki? Possible? By the RAW? Yes. Supported by lore, logic, or appropriate imagination? Not at all, in my opinion. Character classes, especially specialized ones, do not have their talents and skills materialize magically out of thin air. Even clerics, who are granted power by gods, have to learn the will of their deity, the traditions, the prayers, etc., so that he or she is sufficiently appropriate in her deity's eyes to be granted such powers. So, how would have a Paladin gotten either the non-magical training appropriate to a Paladin (couldn't learn from Fighters or Rangers, who specifically learn different paths as shown in their abilities and bonus Feats) or the appropriate divine education and calling if neither Mielikki would be willing to do so, and the clergy at large have no sort of basis with which to come to a common grounds with a Paladin's methods? Remember: classes, in Faerun at least, are NOT just sets of abilities. They have been integrated into the setting (and largely existed as archetypes before the rules ever came about) such that they are largely linked with the established cultures, religions, organizations, etc. Mielikki's dogmas and churches uphold the path of the ranger - NOT as a class alone, but along with all of the thematic concepts that go along with that class. Of course, these are just my thoughts. I get particularly confused/exhausted when people try to apply solely mechanical reasoning to one's character or the world at large. Alignment (which seems to have been your only initial drawback factor with the idea) is only ONE aspect, one partial summary, of all a deity's and that deity's clergy's beliefs and philosophies. Just because there's no hard game rule in Mielikki's F&A/P writeup that says her dogmas and the like are part of the RAW doesn't make them any less valid factors to take into consideration. |
| Turin7109-21-07, 10:11 AM | Come to think about it.... I'm not even sure there are any Clerics of Mielikki. |
| Nivek_kpk09-21-07, 11:19 AM | I'm about 90% sure that a Paladin of Mielikki actually does exist in novels, it's a young woman from Scardale or something in one of the Finder books. |
| GothicDan09-21-07, 11:22 AM | I haven't read the books, but if it was 2E, it is even less likely she was a Paladin. |
| Nivek_kpk09-21-07, 11:34 AM | Just googled it, I believe the young freedom fighter Holly Harrowslough from the novel Finder's Bane is a Paladin of Mielikki...my mistake.. appears she's a paladin of Lathander...forgive my failing memory. |
| The_Shaman09-22-07, 03:29 PM | Come to think about it.... I'm not even sure there are any Clerics of Mielikki. Why wouldn't there be? Like every deity with a dogma, there's a group that's good at spreading it. Sure, they may like to multiclass a little, but that doesn't mean they're not there. |
| ElberethSilverleaf09-23-07, 01:16 AM | Is it just me but does there seem to be a trend away from alignment restrictions for classes on Good vs Evil? It seems to be a way to entice younger players who have not been raised by their parents to have a concept of "good" ethical behavior yet allow them to play that "really cool" Paladin...who also slaughters the whole village of innocents.... I'm overexaggerating but you get my point. Some younger people can't seem to wrap their minds around what constitutes "good", "ethical", or "honorable" behavior. |
| SgtAnjay09-23-07, 05:01 AM | Why wouldn't there be? Like every deity with a dogma, there's a group that's good at spreading it. Sure, they may like to multiclass a little, but that doesn't mean they're not there. There might not have been because not every deity has clerics. Like other deities tied to nature, Mielikki may have only sponsored druids. Or only druids and rangers. As it happens, this isn't the case; Mielikki has both clerics and druids as well as rangers, who are stated as especially loved by her. Not to mention multiclass combos of the above. But just because a FR deity fits some rule requirement, doesn't require them to sponsor paladins in their churches. Just like they're not required to have druids, or clerics, or rangers. Just like some deities bend or outright dont follow those alignment rules at all. |
| The_Shaman09-24-07, 07:34 AM | Strange, are you sure that some deities in FR don't have clerics? As for paladins of certain deities, I try to keep an open mind. Certainly, realms lore itself seems a bit inconsistent on the topic, but afaik there are smaller paladin groups aside from those in FRCS. Paladins of Jergal, for example: while the FRCS has little or nothing on them, Magic of Faerun has spells unique to them. Likewise, there was nothing on possible paladin of Selune until Champions of Valor had a small group whose human members worshipped the Moonmaiden. Therefore, I like to think that aside from the big orders, there is an unknown number of other cults that have a small number of holy warriors that are either recognized as paladins or at least mechanically equivalent to them. |
| Zireael09-24-07, 08:54 AM | I thought Jeryth Phaulkon was a paladin of Mielikki. |
| Zandilar09-24-07, 08:21 PM | Heya, I thought Jeryth Phaulkon was a paladin of Mielikki. Nope, she's a Ranger... Chosen of Mielikki too. |
| SgtAnjay09-25-07, 01:35 AM | As for paladins of certain deities, I try to keep an open mind. Certainly, realms lore itself seems a bit inconsistent on the topic, but afaik there are smaller paladin groups aside from those in FRCS. Paladins of Jergal, for example: while the FRCS has little or nothing on them, Magic of Faerun has spells unique to them. Likewise, there was nothing on possible paladin of Selune until Champions of Valor had a small group whose human members worshipped the Moonmaiden. Therefore, I like to think that aside from the big orders, there is an unknown number of other cults that have a small number of holy warriors that are either recognized as paladins or at least mechanically equivalent to them. The FRCS is far from an exhaustive list on lore for the Realms, especially on the gods. Luckily, there is tons of lore out there on the gods and their churches in many other books for those who care to look. But assuming every deity has every divine caster (as determined by a one-step rule that FR already has had exceptions to and contradictions of) regardless of their flavor? That's the alternative? How.....bland. And arbitrary. Though I suppose it does fit the whole "the universe revolves around your pc" vibe of current D&D. You want a Paladin of Eldath? Sure, Eldath meets the one-step rule. You are now a member of the Military Order of Eldath. :rolleyes: Course, if you want to change the flavor for your own game, thats how the game rolls. But you are, indeed, changing the flavor and pretending you're doing otherwise silly. |
| The_Shaman09-25-07, 05:06 PM | This is a tricky subject, since I like the original feel of the Realms as well. But then, as you say, FRCS is not an exhaustive source. But what is? MoFaerun introduced more paladin orders, CoValor introduced even more...I have read here that there might be a paladin of Tempus somewhere in the Realms. The paladin of Eldath idea might sound absurd to you, but read CoValor and you will find a direct reference to paladins of Milil - a deity no more likely than Eldath. As I wrote, there are smaller cults that do have their paladins. How many those are and of which deities, I do not know. It is a matter for the DM to decide. If you know sources that say exactly what faiths have what kind of characters affiliated to them, I would greatly appreciate it. I myself would appreciate more clarity on the topic. As of right now, I can only say that I know of no sources that contain a complete list, so paladins of other deities - such as Mielikki - are possible. The one-step rule is not the issue here, and I've never liked it that much - Paladins of Selune, for example, make a whole lot of sense in the Realms and I was genuinely glad to see them referred to in CoV. |
| Fabius Maximus09-25-07, 06:48 PM | Say, did someone click on the link I provided above? Sure, the character didn't pop up in a sourcebook, but it is an official paladin of Mielikki. |
| Zandilar09-25-07, 08:31 PM | Heya, Say, did someone click on the link I provided above? Sure, the character didn't pop up in a sourcebook, but it is an official paladin of Mielikki. Hmm... Yes, I clicked it just now, having read this post. Interesting. Note she didn't stay a paladin for very long, and moved on to become a cleric, a divine disciple, and a divine champion. Whoever wrote her up "dipped" paladin (and started paladin because she can't multiclass back) for Divine Grace. Needless to say that the writer seems to have ignored (or not been aware of) the lore of the setting. Very sad. :( (IMHO, she would have worked just as easily with ranger as her initial class, and would probably change it if I ever used her.) |
| Drew1369r09-25-07, 08:49 PM | Where in any book does it say that Meilikki does not have any paladins |
| Zandilar09-26-07, 03:36 AM | Heya, Where in any book does it say that Meilikki does not have any paladins Faiths and Avatars, the 2e god book from which a lot of Faiths and Pantheons is derived. |
| SgtAnjay09-26-07, 10:38 AM | This is a tricky subject, since I like the original feel of the Realms as well. But then, as you say, FRCS is not an exhaustive source. But what is? MoFaerun introduced more paladin orders, CoValor introduced even more...I have read here that there might be a paladin of Tempus somewhere in the Realms. The paladin of Eldath idea might sound absurd to you, but read CoValor and you will find a direct reference to paladins of Milil - a deity no more likely than Eldath. As I wrote, there are smaller cults that do have their paladins. How many those are and of which deities, I do not know. It is a matter for the DM to decide. If you dont think a militant order dedicated to Eldath is absurd, then either you aren't very familiar with Eldath or we're definately never going to see eye to eye on anything. A militant Eldath order is like an order of arsonists dedicated to Istishia. Eldath seeks to eliminate violence. As for Milil, who is more capable of inspiring heroes than a god-bard? His priests could probably whip up a fertilizer merchant into mighty righteous desire to smite evil, let alone someone inclined towards the path of the paladin. Seeking to emulate the songs of old and inspire new songs for the future is as good a reason as any, and better than many, to fight evil. Not to mention the usefulness of warriors to guard precious storehouses of music (whether they're places or people), and retrieve ancient lost songs, instruments, or other artifacts from dangerous sites. If you know sources that say exactly what faiths have what kind of characters affiliated to them, I would greatly appreciate it. I myself would appreciate more clarity on the topic. As of right now, I can only say that I know of no sources that contain a complete list, so paladins of other deities - such as Mielikki - are possible. The one-step rule is not the issue here, and I've never liked it that much - Paladins of Selune, for example, make a whole lot of sense in the Realms and I was genuinely glad to see them referred to in CoV. Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities gave lists of exactly which classes were members each deities' churches. That was for 2ed, however, so the mechanics related stuff doesn't always translate 100% (druids were a variant of the cleric class, and were the PHB example of a "specialty priests"; some churches had 2ed crusaders rather than paladins; etc). For what its worth, as Zandilar said paladins were not members of the church of Mielikki in 2ed. As for that NPC, note that she was a paladin before joining the church then left that progression. Also note it says "paladin 2/cleric 8 of Mielikki/etc" ; a divine class in FR has their deity listed after the class, like cleric of Mielikki, ranger of gwaeron, druid of sylvanus, etc. But her paladin levels dont have a deity attached, meaning that while she may have joined Mielikki's church as a paladin, she was not a Paladin 2 of Mielikki. At best, its proof Mielikki has clerics. |
| Chloramantis09-26-07, 10:57 AM | A paladin of Mielikki is called a ranger. That isn't meant to be a wise remark. There just isn't any possibilities that a paladin's strict code has anything in common with Mielikki's influence. As a matter of fact, I don't think there are clerics of Mielikki either (in 2E at least). |
| Turin7109-26-07, 11:35 AM | I might be wrong. I don't claim to be an expert on Realms Lore but I just have not heard of Paladins or Clerics of Mielikki. It just doesn't fit the bill. It is possible she only sponsered Druids to expand her faith. Faith and Panthions from 2E does not mentione either class. It states her followers consists of Rangers Druids and Multiclass Ranger/Druids. However, like has been said above, there are infinate possibilities one can come up with to make Paladin of Mielikki. Maybe there is an unknown order of Paladins of Mielikki somewhere. Maybe your character could start such an order if one does not exist. It really is all up to you and your DM. |
| The_Shaman09-26-07, 11:56 AM | If you dont think a militant order dedicated to Eldath is absurd, then either you aren't very familiar with Eldath or we're definately never going to see eye to eye on anything. A militant Eldath order is like an order of arsonists dedicated to Istishia. Eldath seeks to eliminate violence. As for Milil, who is more capable of inspiring heroes than a god-bard? His priests could probably whip up a fertilizer merchant into mighty righteous desire to smite evil, let alone someone inclined towards the path of the paladin. Seeking to emulate the songs of old and inspire new songs for the future is as good a reason as any, and better than many, to fight evil. Not to mention the usefulness of warriors to guard precious storehouses of music (whether they're places or people), and retrieve ancient lost songs, instruments, or other artifacts from dangerous sites. Look, I do know who Eldath is, but my point is, Milil is not exactly a typical patron of paladins either. Sure, few paladins mind hanging out with a (good and proper) bard, but the two are seldom the same person. You actually put the whole paladin of Eldath thing in my mouth by attributing to me blind obedience to the one-step rule - which, as I replied, I do not feel so beholden to. It's not that EVERY LN, LG or NG deity should have paladins, it's just that as of right now I - and I think everyone else - do not have a definite answer as to which ones do according to the new rules. As for earlier edition sources, unfortunately I don't have a lot of those for the Realms. This is why I wanted to know if there is an updated list of deities that have paladins. The list probably changed, as unless there was an exception to one of the core 2nd edition rules (allowed classes per race), Moradin, Arvoreen, Clangeddin, Berronar, and other demihuman deities did not have paladins back then either. |
| Zandilar09-26-07, 06:19 PM | Heya, As for that NPC, note that she was a paladin before joining the church then left that progression. Also note it says "paladin 2/cleric 8 of Mielikki/etc" ; a divine class in FR has their deity listed after the class, like cleric of Mielikki, ranger of gwaeron, druid of sylvanus, etc. But her paladin levels dont have a deity attached, meaning that while she may have joined Mielikki's church as a paladin, she was not a Paladin 2 of Mielikki. At best, its proof Mielikki has clerics. If you read the background provided with the character, it says that she joined the church of Mielikki as a paladin. Which completely breaks the lore that went before. Though I think it's very telling that she didn't actually stay a paladin. A paladin of Mielikki is called a ranger. That isn't meant to be a wise remark. There just isn't any possibilities that a paladin's strict code has anything in common with Mielikki's influence. As a matter of fact, I don't think there are clerics of Mielikki either (in 2E at least). It just doesn't fit the bill. It is possible she only sponsered Druids to expand her faith. Faith and Panthions from 2E does not mentione either class. It states her followers consists of Rangers Druids and Multiclass Ranger/Druids. To the two of you... Faiths and Avatars page 113, under The Church heading: Clergy: Clerics, druids, rangers, druid/rangers Clergy's Align: LG, NG, CG, N So yes, Mielikki does have clerics. |
| Mula09-30-07, 12:19 AM | Is it just me but does there seem to be a trend away from alignment restrictions for classes on Good vs Evil? It seems to be a way to entice younger players who have not been raised by their parents to have a concept of "good" ethical behavior yet allow them to play that "really cool" Paladin...who also slaughters the whole village of innocents.... I'm overexaggerating but you get my point. Some younger people can't seem to wrap their minds around what constitutes "good", "ethical", or "honorable" behavior.I think you're stretching a wee bit. :) "Paladin" simply means a divine warrior to many people, myself included. And since divine in D&D isn't limited to good, it's only rational to allow evil deities to have some too. (We already have blackguards too - a paladin with another name and alignment.) |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 12:33 AM | "Paladin" in D&D refers to a LG holy warrior with a largely Judeo-Christian code of conduct. What it means to individual people doesn't really matter in the larger context of discussing the setting. |
| Mula09-30-07, 01:35 AM | And there are many takes on the concept of a paladin in D&D. Also, 4e introduces evil paladins to core rules. |
| Drew1369r09-30-07, 07:19 AM | Heya, Faiths and Avatars, the 2e god book from which a lot of Faiths and Pantheons is derived. So in that book it states it specifically that she wouldn't sponsor paladins |
| SgtAnjay09-30-07, 11:10 AM | So in that book it states it specifically that she wouldn't sponsor paladins It states specifically that there are NO, none, zero, zilch, nada, nul, keine, nessun, nenhuns paladins of Mielikki. |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 11:10 AM | And there are many takes on the concept of a paladin in D&D. Also, 4e introduces evil paladins to core rules. Show me core, canon examples. |
| The_Shaman09-30-07, 11:34 AM | It states specifically that there are NO, none, zero, zilch, nada, nul, keine, nessun, nenhuns paladins of Mielikki. In 2nd edition. |
| SgtAnjay09-30-07, 11:36 AM | In 2nd edition. But there's no lore to contradict it, and lore has to be contradicted before its no longer in effect. |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 11:37 AM | And that carries over into 3E unless written over specifically by a newer 3E source. That's how WotC says it works. |
| The_Shaman09-30-07, 07:42 PM | But there's no lore to contradict it, and lore has to be contradicted before its no longer in effect. OK, as I said, I do not have it atm. However, does it also allow for paladins of all deities that have paladins according to 3/3.5 lore, including demihuman deities, Sune, Jergal, Milil etc? They are all official according to 3.x sources, after all. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter all that much, imo. Still, I've seen a lot of things in the realms make much less sense than paladins of Mielikki, even though I probably wouldn't play one even if it were possible. |
| SgtAnjay09-30-07, 09:12 PM | OK, as I said, I do not have it atm. However, does it also allow for paladins of all deities that have paladins according to 3/3.5 lore, including demihuman deities, Sune, Jergal, Milil etc? They are all official according to 3.x sources, after all. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter all that much, imo. Still, I've seen a lot of things in the realms make much less sense than paladins of Mielikki, even though I probably wouldn't play one even if it were possible. Before, the rules disallowed things like dwarven paladins. When the rules changed, so did the lore. Sune had an in-game explanation of the lore change; she saw promoting adventurers worked for Tymora and followed suit. In other cases, paladin orders are a new addition to lore. Those are all valid lore changes. "Because 3.x edition rules dont contradict them" is not a valid lore change. Mielikki's lore didn't change. Therefore, for what its worth, there are no Paladins of Mielikki in the canon Realms. |
| Drew1369r10-01-07, 01:00 AM | It states specifically that there are NO, none, zero, zilch, nada, nul, keine, nessun, nenhuns paladins of Mielikki. Actually it doesn't say that at all... I just bought the book... and it doesn't say anywhere that she wouldn't sponsor a paladin... So OP... play away... |
| SgtAnjay10-01-07, 01:17 AM | Actually it doesn't say that at all... I just bought the book... and it doesn't say anywhere that she wouldn't sponsor a paladin... So OP... play away... As Zandilar already posted..... Faiths and Avatars page 113, under The Church heading: Clergy: Clerics, druids, rangers, druid/rangers Clergy's Align: LG, NG, CG, N So her clergy has clerics, druids, rangers, and druid/rangers. She has no paladins. |
| Drew1369r10-01-07, 02:33 AM | SPONSOR THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is the key words here... lets learn to read |
| SgtAnjay10-01-07, 03:06 AM | My, arent we exiteable. I'm afraid the key word is "clergy". Paladins in the Realms are members of the clergy, because if they aren't then they aren't divine, and therefore not paladins. Paladins do not exist in Mielikki's clergy. Therefore, none are granted divine powers by her and thus do not exist. |
| The_Shaman10-01-07, 07:16 AM | Before, the rules disallowed things like dwarven paladins. When the rules changed, so did the lore. Sune had an in-game explanation of the lore change; she saw promoting adventurers worked for Tymora and followed suit. In other cases, paladin orders are a new addition to lore. Those are all valid lore changes. "Because 3.x edition rules dont contradict them" is not a valid lore change. Mielikki's lore didn't change. Therefore, for what its worth, there are no Paladins of Mielikki in the canon Realms. You can see my predicament about F&A: due to rule and lore changes it is somewhat outdated. I don't have it, so I will have to trust others on that one: does it have anything on paladins of Milil, Jergal, Selune, or any of the other deities not mentioned in the FRCS orders? Overall, I would agree that there are probably no paladins of Mielikki, but given the state of the lore I can't in all honesty claim that there can't be any. And dip or no, the build in the webarticle makes a point. Paladins in FR get all their special powers from deities, so the paladin/cleric/divine disciple either gets their paladin powers from Mielikki, or they get special powers from two deities - a state that is, afaik, even less likely. To be a paladin of Chauntea and a cleric/ divine disciple of Mielikki (and divine disciples were supposed to be even closer to their deity than average clerics) is quite the daunting task. P.S: Actually, can a cleric of Mielikki even be of N alignment in 3.x? |
| Zandilar10-01-07, 09:00 AM | Heya, You can see my predicament about F&A: due to rule and lore changes it is somewhat outdated. I don't have it, so I will have to trust others on that one: does it have anything on paladins of Milil, Jergal, Selune, or any of the other deities not mentioned in the FRCS orders? Overall, I would agree that there are probably no paladins of Mielikki, but given the state of the lore I can't in all honesty claim that there can't be any. Specifically - Milil - no. His clergy are listed as clerics, specialty priests, mystics, bards, and spellsingers. (F&A pg 117) Selune - no. Her clergy are listed as clerics, specialty priests, crusaders, and mystics. (F&A pg 135) Jergal - no. His clergy are listed as clerics, monks, and specialty priests. (Powers and Pantheons pg 32) (Crusaders are kind of like Divine Champions who must be either Lawful or Chaotic.) 2nd Ed Deities with paladins listed: Faiths and Avatars Helm, as part of his Clergy. Ilmater, as part of his Affiliated Orders. Kelemvor, is said to be considering an order of Paladins under Affiliated Orders. Lathander, as part of his Affiliated Orders. Milil, as part of his Affiliated Orders. Mystra, as part of her Affiliated Orders (interestingly enough, she has an order of Rangers too). Sune, as part of her Affiliated Orders. Torm, as part of his Clergy (no surprise there). Tyr, as part of his Affiliated Orders. (Tempus has no paladins, and the entry for Affiliated Orders makes a point of saying he has no paladins.) Powers and Pantheons Red Knight, as part of her Affiliated Orders. Siamorphe, as part of her Clergy. Horus-Re, as part of his Affiliated Orders. Osiris, as part of his Clergy. Demihuman Deities Unsurprisingly, there are no deities in this book with paladins in their clergy or affiliated orders. This is probably due to the fact that no demihuman could be a paladin back in 2nd Edition. As for the deity at issue in this thread: Mielikki has an order of Ranger/Druids who act as a knightly order for her faith, listed under Affiliated Orders in her entry. And dip or no, the build in the webarticle makes a point. Paladins in FR get all their special powers from deities, so the paladin/cleric/divine disciple either gets their paladin powers from Mielikki, or they get special powers from two deities - a state that is, afaik, even less likely. To be a paladin of Chauntea and a cleric/ divine disciple of Mielikki (and divine disciples were supposed to be even closer to their deity than average clerics) is quite the daunting task. P.S: Actually, can a cleric of Mielikki even be of N alignment in 3.x? Makes a point of the fact that she didn't stick to being a paladin, you mean. ;) Also, Faiths and Pantheons pg 48 lists the cleric alignments for Mielikki as being LG, NG, and CG. So no TN clerics. (There is no reason why Mielikki could not choose to sponsor a single paladin, but she does not have an order of paladins, nor are they part of her clergy. So the paladin in the web article could be one of those exceptions, I suppose. Personally I wouldn't allow it, it is totally against the flavour of the goddess IMHO.) |
| The_Shaman10-01-07, 09:44 AM | Mnogo blagodarya. :) |
| Zandilar10-01-07, 06:31 PM | Heya, Mnogo blagodarya. :) You're welcome. ;) |