paladins that ARE mounts [Archive] - Wizards Community

paladins that ARE mounts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sleyvas
05-30-07, 09:46 AM Something popped into my head from another thread. Centaurs and wemics can't ride mounts, as they are their own mounts. I was just playing with what kind of ideas can you see as a class replacement for a paladin centaur or wemic (or dracotaur, etc..). These are the ideas that popped in my head, but looking for something with a little more appeal:

a) they instead get a companion animal ala ranger

b) they instead get some ability to improve their maneuverability (maybe at first they float 6 inches above the ground, gradually improving to being able to walk over water, and then actually being able to walk on air).

c) they gain a planar cohort (some kind of lesser deva for instance) that they can summon under the same rules as summoning a mount for a paladin, but its a humanoid who uses them as a mount
Diffan
05-30-07, 04:33 PM What about just giving them the Charging Smite class ability? You triple your smite damage on a charge and if you miss with the smite attack, it isn't considered used up for the day. It's very devestating with the spell Rhino's Rush.
GothicDan
05-30-07, 05:08 PM The most true-to-mechanics way of representing this would be an Animal Companion, I think.

But that bores me, and I would try (and did try, in my own world) to distinguish Centaur Paladins from Human Paladins, so much so that I ended up just changing the name and fluff completely.

I made up a 20-level class for them that combined aspects of the Cavalier PrC, the Paladin class, and the Divine Champion PrC.
Another Gnome
05-30-07, 06:06 PM The rules support substituting the standard mount with something more appropriate to the environment, and it should be noted that the only special ability paladin mounts get that actually has a direct application to mounted combat is the speed increase, and even that will benefit a companion used as an attack pet just the same.

If a campaign involves a lot of dungeoneering or urban encounters, any paladin will be far better off getting a dog or something instead of a horse.
GothicDan
05-30-07, 06:12 PM I personally was never a huge fan of playing mounted Paladins, unless they had extraordinary Mounts that were in some way tied to their character/faith (Dire Lion Mount for a Paladin of Nobanion, for example).

Though, in my world, I had a group of Ranger/Paladin/Rogue types that relied on stealth and largely ranged attacks (bolas, nets, and spears), coupled with swift guerilla raids on the backs of strange camel-like plains beasts. They fought the evil Yeenoghu-worshipping Gnolls, who invaded their land and slew the majority of their nobility... So sad. Also, they had tamed the cheetahs of the region, and used them as scouts and messengers!

Sneak attack Rogue/Ranged specialty Ranger/Smite Evil Paladin = Pained Carriongnawer of Yeenoghu. Granted, the war chiefs and ranking clerics of Yeenoghu rode huge fiendish hyenas, and wielded lots of spikey, chained stuff... Man, I wish I had the attention span to actually put my stuff together and write it down in one source. :(

I also like the idea of dragon-riding Paladins, but that's probably purely nostalgic (Knights of Solamnia/Takhisis).

Back more OT, the Animal Companion would obviously be that which was most suitable to a given culture/region. In my world, the Centaurs were more LG temperate plains creatures, and considered equines sacred, their charges to protect - for them, a horse would still make a decent Mount, thematically at least.

And so would Wemics and Lions. Those that worship Malar would enjoy their raw predatory violence and strength, while those that worship Nobanion would revel in their willful aura, fortitude, and sense of leadership.
ShadezofDis
05-31-07, 11:41 AM The rules support substituting the standard mount with something more appropriate to the environment, and it should be noted that the only special ability paladin mounts get that actually has a direct application to mounted combat is the speed increase, and even that will benefit a companion used as an attack pet just the same.

Umm. . . so what you are saying is that AC, HPs, and STR have no place in mounted combat? Improved evasion?

Mounts can attack in combat you know.

Or are you saying that all of these things would work well with an animal companion and I just misread what you are saying?
Another Gnome
05-31-07, 07:08 PM I was saying that the paladin's special mount has virtually no abilities making it more useful as a mount than a perfectly normal animal.

Even if the paladin specialized in mounted combat, he would still benefit more from having the special mount fight separately, while riding a regular horse to use his mounted feats.
brisingre
05-31-07, 08:16 PM there are paladins that specialize in mounted combat and don't cast spells.....their called the crusader class from tome of battle
brisingre
05-31-07, 08:17 PM but on the paladins that are mounts thing.....either give them an animal companion as a ranger, or have them get a dragon mount.
GothicDan
05-31-07, 08:53 PM .....

A Wemic or Centaur riding a dragon?

*Boggle.*
brisingre
05-31-07, 09:07 PM it's possible its called an extremely exotic sadle (and a bunch of penalties on ride) or just don't use it as an actual mount, just used to fight in comabt (u can't get a dragon animal companion and dragon familiars require arcane spellcasting) also i suppose u could just try getting one as a cohort.
GothicDan
05-31-07, 09:12 PM But why a dragon, in particular? Dragons in the Realms really have no connection whatsoever to any of the four-legged races.

I think it'd really make the most sense to have an Animal Companion that best fit the Paladin's deity.
brisingre
05-31-07, 09:17 PM well not a dragon in particular i was just looking for an example n i was reading dragons of fearun so i just used dragons.
GothicDan
05-31-07, 09:20 PM Ah, okay. :)
brisingre
05-31-07, 09:24 PM wait i just thought of something, if it were a half (metallic)-dragon, wouldn't that eliminate the need/ usefullness of a mount alltogether, you'd be able to both fly and walk/run.
GothicDan
05-31-07, 09:27 PM Not if the mount could fly faster or carry more for a longer distance, or the like.
brisingre
05-31-07, 09:31 PM good point, and i just found something for anybody with the "races of the dragon" book i was just looking in the half- dragon section and under "non-humanoid half-dragons" for a picture they have a half-bronze dragon-centaur.
GothicDan
05-31-07, 09:36 PM How.. Interesting.
brisingre
05-31-07, 09:39 PM i've spent enough time on this forums thread for more info on "non-humanoid paladin mounts" see page 97 of "complete champion"
brisingre
05-31-07, 09:40 PM :D i knew about that the whole time.
ShadezofDis
06-01-07, 12:04 PM I was saying that the paladin's special mount has virtually no abilities making it more useful as a mount than a perfectly normal animal.

Even if the paladin specialized in mounted combat, he would still benefit more from having the special mount fight separately, while riding a regular horse to use his mounted feats.

Unless the person he's fighting targets his mount.

Cause that's what I'd do, but I'm a cheap b****** that way. ;)
Another Gnome
06-01-07, 12:45 PM True enough, but targeting the regular mount to stop the paladin from using mounted combat against you is one attack away from stopping the special mount -- as opposed to stopping both the paladin and the special mount with one (lucky) hit in the more traditional setup.

Having more options is rarely a disadvantage. :)

(And obviously a paladin who is his own mount won't need to worry about the frailty of a regular animal to begin with.)
Swiftblade
06-01-07, 01:23 PM Actually you would be missing out on some nice abilities.
Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, improved speed, Command creatures of its kind, spell resistance.

That is a nice list of abilities that if used right are very nice.

Also the extra AC, HP and Str help out considerably, so not having this mount can really be a disadvantage.

I would in my own game grant at 5th level improved speed to the PC.

At 10th level Improved evasion

At 15th level Spell resistance

Since, as a PC I have played many paladins and having a mount is important to me as a PC, and when DMing they come in handy for my player's. Regardless of whether it is a Warhorse, Unicorn, Pegasus or Dragon a mount can come in handy regardless of the circumstance. But only if you play that style, plus as a DM, you can make circumstances work against using a mount in certain places.
Another Gnome
06-02-07, 10:46 AM I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying here, Swiftblade.

None of the special abilities of the paladin's mount require the paladin to actually ride the mount; a large constrictor snake would still get the extra HD, share spells, AC bonus, and the works. A paladin wouldn't ride a snake, but compared to a horse the snake would have other uses.

Obviously even a paladin that did choose the heavy warhorse could still use a mundane horse for mounted combat and use the pokémount for other battlefield tactics, such as flanking the enemy.
brisingre
06-02-07, 10:51 AM another alternative might be to allow the non-humanoid paladin to become a celestial rider.....
Purple Dragon Knight
06-03-07, 02:02 AM Another Gnome has a good point guys. Use a regular horse in addition to your mount; the only drawback, I would believe, is that the Share Spell ability has to be used while the paladin actually rides his Special Mount (i.e. within 5ft effectively means he must ride the thing...)

As for me, should I play a paladin centaur one day, when this centaur reaches 5th paladin level, I will give that paladin a "Special Rider" instead of a "Special Mount" (effectively give him a low-level cleric or mageling that will cast buff spells on him and try to hang on from the saddle the best he can while using the "Mounted Combat" feat to nullify one attack per round on my pal centaur! :D )
Diffan
06-03-07, 04:26 AM Why not giving him some special abilities from the Cavalier from the Complete Warrior and see if your DM will allow that. Or some hybrid version of the Cavalier/Paladin that would suit your Character? You could even make up your own PrC as Gothic Dan said!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sleyvas 05-30-07, 09:46 AM	Something popped into my head from another thread. Centaurs and wemics can't ride mounts, as they are their own mounts. I was just playing with what kind of ideas can you see as a class replacement for a paladin centaur or wemic (or dracotaur, etc..). These are the ideas that popped in my head, but looking for something with a little more appeal: a) they instead get a companion animal ala ranger b) they instead get some ability to improve their maneuverability (maybe at first they float 6 inches above the ground, gradually improving to being able to walk over water, and then actually being able to walk on air). c) they gain a planar cohort (some kind of lesser deva for instance) that they can summon under the same rules as summoning a mount for a paladin, but its a humanoid who uses them as a mount
Diffan 05-30-07, 04:33 PM	What about just giving them the Charging Smite class ability? You triple your smite damage on a charge and if you miss with the smite attack, it isn't considered used up for the day. It's very devestating with the spell Rhino's Rush.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 05:08 PM	The most true-to-mechanics way of representing this would be an Animal Companion, I think. But that bores me, and I would try (and did try, in my own world) to distinguish Centaur Paladins from Human Paladins, so much so that I ended up just changing the name and fluff completely. I made up a 20-level class for them that combined aspects of the Cavalier PrC, the Paladin class, and the Divine Champion PrC.
Another Gnome 05-30-07, 06:06 PM	The rules support substituting the standard mount with something more appropriate to the environment, and it should be noted that the only special ability paladin mounts get that actually has a direct application to mounted combat is the speed increase, and even that will benefit a companion used as an attack pet just the same. If a campaign involves a lot of dungeoneering or urban encounters, any paladin will be far better off getting a dog or something instead of a horse.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 06:12 PM	I personally was never a huge fan of playing mounted Paladins, unless they had extraordinary Mounts that were in some way tied to their character/faith (Dire Lion Mount for a Paladin of Nobanion, for example). Though, in my world, I had a group of Ranger/Paladin/Rogue types that relied on stealth and largely ranged attacks (bolas, nets, and spears), coupled with swift guerilla raids on the backs of strange camel-like plains beasts. They fought the evil Yeenoghu-worshipping Gnolls, who invaded their land and slew the majority of their nobility... So sad. Also, they had tamed the cheetahs of the region, and used them as scouts and messengers! Sneak attack Rogue/Ranged specialty Ranger/Smite Evil Paladin = Pained Carriongnawer of Yeenoghu. Granted, the war chiefs and ranking clerics of Yeenoghu rode huge fiendish hyenas, and wielded lots of spikey, chained stuff... Man, I wish I had the attention span to actually put my stuff together and write it down in one source. :( I also like the idea of dragon-riding Paladins, but that's probably purely nostalgic (Knights of Solamnia/Takhisis). Back more OT, the Animal Companion would obviously be that which was most suitable to a given culture/region. In my world, the Centaurs were more LG temperate plains creatures, and considered equines sacred, their charges to protect - for them, a horse would still make a decent Mount, thematically at least. And so would Wemics and Lions. Those that worship Malar would enjoy their raw predatory violence and strength, while those that worship Nobanion would revel in their willful aura, fortitude, and sense of leadership.
ShadezofDis 05-31-07, 11:41 AM	The rules support substituting the standard mount with something more appropriate to the environment, and it should be noted that the only special ability paladin mounts get that actually has a direct application to mounted combat is the speed increase, and even that will benefit a companion used as an attack pet just the same. Umm. . . so what you are saying is that AC, HPs, and STR have no place in mounted combat? Improved evasion? Mounts can attack in combat you know. Or are you saying that all of these things would work well with an animal companion and I just misread what you are saying?
Another Gnome 05-31-07, 07:08 PM	I was saying that the paladin's special mount has virtually no abilities making it more useful as a mount than a perfectly normal animal. Even if the paladin specialized in mounted combat, he would still benefit more from having the special mount fight separately, while riding a regular horse to use his mounted feats.
brisingre 05-31-07, 08:16 PM	there are paladins that specialize in mounted combat and don't cast spells.....their called the crusader class from tome of battle
brisingre 05-31-07, 08:17 PM	but on the paladins that are mounts thing.....either give them an animal companion as a ranger, or have them get a dragon mount.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 08:53 PM	..... A Wemic or Centaur riding a dragon? Boggle.
brisingre 05-31-07, 09:07 PM	it's possible its called an extremely exotic sadle (and a bunch of penalties on ride) or just don't use it as an actual mount, just used to fight in comabt (u can't get a dragon animal companion and dragon familiars require arcane spellcasting) also i suppose u could just try getting one as a cohort.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 09:12 PM	But why a dragon, in particular? Dragons in the Realms really have no connection whatsoever to any of the four-legged races. I think it'd really make the most sense to have an Animal Companion that best fit the Paladin's deity.
brisingre 05-31-07, 09:17 PM	well not a dragon in particular i was just looking for an example n i was reading dragons of fearun so i just used dragons.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 09:20 PM	Ah, okay. :)
brisingre 05-31-07, 09:24 PM	wait i just thought of something, if it were a half (metallic)-dragon, wouldn't that eliminate the need/ usefullness of a mount alltogether, you'd be able to both fly and walk/run.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 09:27 PM	Not if the mount could fly faster or carry more for a longer distance, or the like.
brisingre 05-31-07, 09:31 PM	good point, and i just found something for anybody with the "races of the dragon" book i was just looking in the half- dragon section and under "non-humanoid half-dragons" for a picture they have a half-bronze dragon-centaur.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 09:36 PM	How.. Interesting.
brisingre 05-31-07, 09:39 PM	i've spent enough time on this forums thread for more info on "non-humanoid paladin mounts" see page 97 of "complete champion"
brisingre 05-31-07, 09:40 PM	:D i knew about that the whole time.
ShadezofDis 06-01-07, 12:04 PM	I was saying that the paladin's special mount has virtually no abilities making it more useful as a mount than a perfectly normal animal. Even if the paladin specialized in mounted combat, he would still benefit more from having the special mount fight separately, while riding a regular horse to use his mounted feats. Unless the person he's fighting targets his mount. Cause that's what I'd do, but I'm a cheap b****** that way. ;)
Another Gnome 06-01-07, 12:45 PM	True enough, but targeting the regular mount to stop the paladin from using mounted combat against you is one attack away from stopping the special mount -- as opposed to stopping both the paladin and the special mount with one (lucky) hit in the more traditional setup. Having more options is rarely a disadvantage. :) (And obviously a paladin who is his own mount won't need to worry about the frailty of a regular animal to begin with.)
Swiftblade 06-01-07, 01:23 PM	Actually you would be missing out on some nice abilities. Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, improved speed, Command creatures of its kind, spell resistance. That is a nice list of abilities that if used right are very nice. Also the extra AC, HP and Str help out considerably, so not having this mount can really be a disadvantage. I would in my own game grant at 5th level improved speed to the PC. At 10th level Improved evasion At 15th level Spell resistance Since, as a PC I have played many paladins and having a mount is important to me as a PC, and when DMing they come in handy for my player's. Regardless of whether it is a Warhorse, Unicorn, Pegasus or Dragon a mount can come in handy regardless of the circumstance. But only if you play that style, plus as a DM, you can make circumstances work against using a mount in certain places.
Another Gnome 06-02-07, 10:46 AM	I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying here, Swiftblade. None of the special abilities of the paladin's mount require the paladin to actually ride the mount; a large constrictor snake would still get the extra HD, share spells, AC bonus, and the works. A paladin wouldn't ride a snake, but compared to a horse the snake would have other uses. Obviously even a paladin that did choose the heavy warhorse could still use a mundane horse for mounted combat and use the pokémount for other battlefield tactics, such as flanking the enemy.
brisingre 06-02-07, 10:51 AM	another alternative might be to allow the non-humanoid paladin to become a celestial rider.....
Purple Dragon Knight 06-03-07, 02:02 AM	Another Gnome has a good point guys. Use a regular horse in addition to your mount; the only drawback, I would believe, is that the Share Spell ability has to be used while the paladin actually rides his Special Mount (i.e. within 5ft effectively means he must ride the thing...) As for me, should I play a paladin centaur one day, when this centaur reaches 5th paladin level, I will give that paladin a "Special Rider" instead of a "Special Mount" (effectively give him a low-level cleric or mageling that will cast buff spells on him and try to hang on from the saddle the best he can while using the "Mounted Combat" feat to nullify one attack per round on my pal centaur! :D )
Diffan 06-03-07, 04:26 AM	Why not giving him some special abilities from the Cavalier from the Complete Warrior and see if your DM will allow that. Or some hybrid version of the Cavalier/Paladin that would suit your Character? You could even make up your own PrC as Gothic Dan said!