Phylacteracy... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Phylacteracy... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nasaroth
03-26-07, 08:17 PM Hi all!

I´m sorry if this thread has been made, I didn´t find it when I searched the forums.
I have a question about Liches and phylacteracys.
Is it so simple to become a Lich ingame as to just become lvl 11 and then just create the phylacteracy?
Or do you have to use a spell like Trap the soul or similiar spells to move your soul to the box?
Terraneaux
03-26-07, 08:55 PM Yes, though in game I say you need to die to have your phylactery 'grab' your soul and only *then* do you become a lich.
Tevin Kevlak
03-27-07, 01:33 AM It's as simple as it says it is under the description of the Lich in the MM.
ShadezofDis
03-27-07, 10:10 AM It's as simple as it says it is under the description of the Lich in the MM.

Or as difficult as the DM wants to make it :devil:
Nasaroth
03-27-07, 10:55 AM It's as simple as it says it is under the description of the Lich in the MM.

Nah, In the description in MM it´s not explained thoroughly. It only says "An integral part of becoming a lich is to create a phylacteracy in wich the character stores its life force".
Then it just explains how a common phylacteracy looks like.

It dosen´t state any means of how to extract your soul and put it in the phylacteracy.

I always imagined that when you create it, it costs 120.000GP and 4800XP (I think) and you could convert the XP cost to GP as with other magical items, though the XP cost could also symbolize the lifeforce of the character who creates the phylacteracy. And if so, that would mean that you cannot convert the XP to GP.

What do you guys say about this?
(The main question then is, How do you become a lich ingame step by step?)
Khaelieth
03-27-07, 12:59 PM to make a lich, you take (or in case of halflings, steal);

12 red dragon scales of average weight
1 1/2 pints of demon dust (any will do, but succubi dust is the best)
A zombie mouse of average size
Unholy scriptures (any most unholy scripture will do - celeb magazines are quite good for this)
Half a dead celadrin
1lb of dwarf toenail clippings
Essence of halfling gladiators (very rare indeed)
Werewolf fur
Hens' teeth

Says so in BoVD!
Valgard
03-27-07, 02:37 PM Half a dead celadrinWhat do you do with the living half of the eladrin? :D
lavekkia
03-27-07, 02:43 PM What do you do with the living half of the eladrin? :D

It depends which half do you have; if you have the lower one it could be difficult to get her/him drunk though :D :D :D
Terraneaux
03-27-07, 03:05 PM What are you talking about? The last six inches of the colon is like the most absorbant part of the body. Don't know how true that holds for eladrin being outsiders and whatnot, but seriously, only having the bottom half is no object.
Stigger
03-27-07, 03:40 PM Whatever you do, never allow someone to use the rules given in Dead Magic for the World of Darkness... and if a player even so much as suggests it, just bash them repeatedly with the DMG and put them out of your misery.
Khaelieth
03-27-07, 07:42 PM What do you do with the living half of the eladrin? :D

You've apparently never heard of "dead girls don't say no" and lichloved.
Stigger
03-27-07, 08:51 PM Eww...
Tevin Kevlak
03-28-07, 01:46 AM Nah, In the description in MM it´s not explained thoroughly. It only says "An integral part of becoming a lich is to create a phylacteracy in wich the character stores its life force".
Then it just explains how a common phylacteracy looks like.

It dosen´t state any means of how to extract your soul and put it in the phylacteracy.

I always imagined that when you create it, it costs 120.000GP and 4800XP (I think) and you could convert the XP cost to GP as with other magical items, though the XP cost could also symbolize the lifeforce of the character who creates the phylacteracy. And if so, that would mean that you cannot convert the XP to GP.

What do you guys say about this?
(The main question then is, How do you become a lich ingame step by step?)

It sure does explain thoroughly. You create the phylactery which stores your soul, taking 4800xp and 120 000 GC. The creation process of the phylactery is when your soul is stored within. It is a magic item afterall requiring the craft wonderous item feat.

So...

Question: "Is it so simple to become a Lich ingame as to just become lvl 11 and then just create the phylacteracy?"

Answer: Yes.

Question: "Or do you have to use a spell like Trap the soul or similiar spells to move your soul to the box?"

Answer: No.

Your questions are thoroughly answered.
Faraer
03-28-07, 08:08 AM The (lengthy and involved) lichnee process in the Realms is described in REF5 Lords of Darkness (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/1stEdition/v5748btpy7mcz).
ShadezofDis
03-28-07, 11:05 AM Question: "Is it so simple to become a Lich ingame as to just become lvl 11 and then just create the phylacteracy?"

Answer: Yes. It depends on your DM

Your questions are thoroughly answered.

There, fixed that for ya :D
ShadezofDis
03-28-07, 11:06 AM The (lengthy and involved) lichnee process in the Realms is described in REF5 Lords of Darkness (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/1stEdition/v5748btpy7mcz).

Crikey, I should get my hands on that. I'm a big fan of 1st edition monster ideas (my personal favorite being the rot grub *g*)
Tevin Kevlak
03-28-07, 11:47 PM There, fixed that for ya :D

It actually only depends on your DM if he/she decides to make a houserule making becoming a lich harder than it is. But if we follow this line of reasoning it depends on your DM if you can take Bard levels or not. According to the rules on becoming a Lich, yes, it is as easy as it says it is.
ShadezofDis
03-29-07, 08:02 AM It actually only depends on your DM if he/she decides to make a houserule making becoming a lich harder than it is. But if we follow this line of reasoning it depends on your DM if you can take Bard levels or not. According to the rules on becoming a Lich, yes, it is as easy as it says it is.

Calling the writeup in the MM a "rule" is absolutely disingenuous, it's vague to the point of uselessness, doesn't go into the enchantment process (do you think you just wave your hand around and poof it's done?)

Anyhow, to the OP: it depends upon your DM, if it was Tevin here you'd be all set, if it was myself then you'd best prepare for the hardest adventure you've come across.
Stigger
03-29-07, 08:09 AM You know, honestly, I would never allow a PC to become a lich... and even if I did, I'd tack on some major penalties they would just never see coming. XP penalties for entering a 'static' state, clerics of Lathander coming after them before they get to be too powerful... trying to take them out while they were still 'fresh' and all, clerics of Kelemvor doing much the same thing, higher level wizards who haven't found the recipe gunning for them to steal it from such an unworthy (read low-level) lich... lots of evil things that would make them regret ever even contemplating the idea, much less going through with it. But hey, that's just me. :D
Tevin Kevlak
03-29-07, 03:07 PM Calling the writeup in the MM a "rule" is absolutely disingenuous, it's vague to the point of uselessness, doesn't go into the enchantment process (do you think you just wave your hand around and poof it's done?)

Anyhow, to the OP: it depends upon your DM, if it was Tevin here you'd be all set, if it was myself then you'd best prepare for the hardest adventure you've come across.

Anything involving the enchantment process that isn't covered by the "must create a phylactery with the craft wonderous item feat" is fluff and thus has nothing to do with the "rules".

Do you honestly believe I would describe the creation process as "you use the power of your feat to create a phylactery... welcome to lich-dom"?

Also, there is nothing over powering about the lich. When you become a lich you give up 4 caster levels, since liches have to have at least 11 caster levels this makes a bare minimum lich an ECL 15 character that can only cast 6th level spells instead of 8th level spells (a huge penalty for a straight casting character), and by level 20 will only be able to cast 8th level spells, losing their ability to gain acess to their strongest powers. You are also undead and can now be turned/destroyed by good clerics or rebuked/commanded by evil clerics. Your fortitude save now sucks, much more than it already did, since you have no constitution score and are 4 level behind in save progression, so really one well aimed disintegration spell is going to ruin your night of adventuring. Imposing in-game penalties for such a character besides the fact that he is losing 4800 XP and 120 000 GC (note the avrage wealth for a level 11 PC is 66 000 so if your level 11 PC could muster the funds to create his phylactery he would basically have no other magical equipment) is excessive to say the least. Now, if you're imposing these in-game obstacles for story reasons go for it, but what I gleaned from your post, Stigger, is that you would do this just because he became a lich and you want to make him "regret it"... that makes for a fun dnd game let me tell ya. :rolleyes:
Stigger
03-29-07, 03:41 PM Of course its for story reasons... wouldn't occur to me to do it simply because they did something I didn't like. To me, lichedom is entering a static state where you are suddenly arrested by undeath and further growth and true elightenment and understanding are greatly hindered by the state. Hence the XP penalty there. I have a very dim view of undeath to be honest, and tend towards them as not being as capable as living beings when it comes to personal growth and the like. Set in their ways I suppose is a good way of putting it.

As to the clerics/archmage thing... I find it difficult to believe that a lot of said clerics and archmages don't keep an eye out for who's collecting what components from what sources as best they can, so they don't have to deal with some problem later that they could have nipped in the bud before it became a major problem. Archmages I could see doing for more... selfish reasons, but still doing it, and probably more effectively than any cleric. Why buy expensive components and risk exposing your intentions when some young upstart is going to hand you some of them on a silver platter by being stupid and unsubtle... presuming they are of course. If they come up with ways of doing things, even things I don't want them to, by being really clever I gotta give them the benefits of outsmarting all the countermeasures and contingencies I had in mind.

If one of my players figured out a way to achieve lichedom and avoid all of those obstacles in his path because of careful planning and cleverness on their part, I'd have to give it to them. I wouldn't like it, but someone who really puts thought and effort into it should be rewarded for it. And it isn't like I'm not going to warn them of the dangers and penalties they're likely going to encounter in the form of 'lore books' they find in their travels. Brilliance should be rewarded in my book, but doing something just because it's 'ubar' is going to get you a beat down in all likelihood.

Like just last night during an encounter with an insane elven wizardess who'd been trapped for her and everyone elses own good. (Really) Basically the PC's got tapped to take their cleric into her 'cell' and get close enough to cast a heal on her to restore her sanity. I had a very elaborate battle planned out... which was promptly disintegrated when one of my very smart players who had taken ranks in both diplomacy and perform (dance) asked said crazy elf to dance, made his check and just simply maneuvered her at the cleric so he could cast his spell as they made a pass around him... just had so much style and panache I had to give it to him despite having a lot of forethought just getting totally scrapped because of one natural 20 check. Think I spent a good 5 minutes cackling quietly to myself after that one... since it turned out so much better than I had planned.
ShadezofDis
03-29-07, 04:21 PM Anything involving the enchantment process that isn't covered by the "must create a phylactery with the craft wonderous item feat" is fluff and thus has nothing to do with the "rules".

So material components are "fluff"? Because NONE of the items you need, except for "a box with some strips of parchment", are detailed.

Further, the MM only states that the creation of a phylacteracy is an integrall part of the process, not the entirety of the process.

Do you honestly believe I would describe the creation process as "you use the power of your feat to create a phylactery... welcome to lich-dom"?

Sure read that way, I see that is not your stance however.

Also, there is nothing over powering about the lich.

So long as you don't count immortality and a lack of mortal needs (food, water, etc) as overpowered. Personally, I find them to be VERY powerful things.

...You are also undead and can now be turned/destroyed by good clerics or rebuked/commanded by evil clerics. Your fortitude save now sucks, much more than it already did, since you have no constitution score and are 4 level behind in save progression, so really one well aimed disintegration spell is going to ruin your night of adventuring.

Only the most powerful of good/evil clerics. The fort save sucking isn't that big a deal considering undead immunities, the example of disintegrate is one of the rare situations where the undead immunities wouldn't cover a low fort save. And even should someone disintegrate you it's no biggie, you'll be back on your feet soon enough.

Imposing in-game penalties for such a character besides the fact that he is losing 4800 XP and 120 000 GC (note the avrage wealth for a level 11 PC is 66 000 so if your level 11 PC could muster the funds to create his phylactery he would basically have no other magical equipment) is excessive to say the least.

Alright, so you're saying that picking up 120k worth of magical components should be a quick run to the market? That's what it reads as, I'm quite sure you don't intend it that way but that's how it reads to myself. I wouldn't allow that in a game I ran, you might be able to buy some of the items you would need but most would be unavailable, requiring the one trying to gain lichdom to either hire people to get the items or to go and get them himself.
Faraer
03-30-07, 11:23 AM The simple 3E rules abstraction of lichdom doesn't negate what's involved in becoming a lich in the setting, any more than a craftsman doesn't have to find and craft materials because there are craft skills.
ShadezofDis
03-30-07, 12:10 PM The simple 3E rules abstraction of lichdom doesn't negate what's involved in becoming a lich in the setting, any more than a craftsman doesn't have to find and craft materials because there are craft skills.

Fine, just reduce my whole argument to a sentence, you and your concise statements Faraer ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nasaroth 03-26-07, 08:17 PM	Hi all! I´m sorry if this thread has been made, I didn´t find it when I searched the forums. I have a question about Liches and phylacteracys. Is it so simple to become a Lich ingame as to just become lvl 11 and then just create the phylacteracy? Or do you have to use a spell like Trap the soul or similiar spells to move your soul to the box?
Terraneaux 03-26-07, 08:55 PM	Yes, though in game I say you need to die to have your phylactery 'grab' your soul and only then do you become a lich.
Tevin Kevlak 03-27-07, 01:33 AM	It's as simple as it says it is under the description of the Lich in the MM.
ShadezofDis 03-27-07, 10:10 AM	It's as simple as it says it is under the description of the Lich in the MM. Or as difficult as the DM wants to make it :devil:
Nasaroth 03-27-07, 10:55 AM	It's as simple as it says it is under the description of the Lich in the MM. Nah, In the description in MM it´s not explained thoroughly. It only says "An integral part of becoming a lich is to create a phylacteracy in wich the character stores its life force". Then it just explains how a common phylacteracy looks like. It dosen´t state any means of how to extract your soul and put it in the phylacteracy. I always imagined that when you create it, it costs 120.000GP and 4800XP (I think) and you could convert the XP cost to GP as with other magical items, though the XP cost could also symbolize the lifeforce of the character who creates the phylacteracy. And if so, that would mean that you cannot convert the XP to GP. What do you guys say about this? (The main question then is, How do you become a lich ingame step by step?)
Khaelieth 03-27-07, 12:59 PM	to make a lich, you take (or in case of halflings, steal); 12 red dragon scales of average weight 1 1/2 pints of demon dust (any will do, but succubi dust is the best) A zombie mouse of average size Unholy scriptures (any most unholy scripture will do - celeb magazines are quite good for this) Half a dead celadrin 1lb of dwarf toenail clippings Essence of halfling gladiators (very rare indeed) Werewolf fur Hens' teeth Says so in BoVD!
Valgard 03-27-07, 02:37 PM	Half a dead celadrinWhat do you do with the living half of the eladrin? :D
lavekkia 03-27-07, 02:43 PM	What do you do with the living half of the eladrin? :D It depends which half do you have; if you have the lower one it could be difficult to get her/him drunk though :D :D :D
Terraneaux 03-27-07, 03:05 PM	What are you talking about? The last six inches of the colon is like the most absorbant part of the body. Don't know how true that holds for eladrin being outsiders and whatnot, but seriously, only having the bottom half is no object.
Stigger 03-27-07, 03:40 PM	Whatever you do, never allow someone to use the rules given in Dead Magic for the World of Darkness... and if a player even so much as suggests it, just bash them repeatedly with the DMG and put them out of your misery.
Khaelieth 03-27-07, 07:42 PM	What do you do with the living half of the eladrin? :D You've apparently never heard of "dead girls don't say no" and lichloved.
Stigger 03-27-07, 08:51 PM	Eww...
Tevin Kevlak 03-28-07, 01:46 AM	Nah, In the description in MM it´s not explained thoroughly. It only says "An integral part of becoming a lich is to create a phylacteracy in wich the character stores its life force". Then it just explains how a common phylacteracy looks like. It dosen´t state any means of how to extract your soul and put it in the phylacteracy. I always imagined that when you create it, it costs 120.000GP and 4800XP (I think) and you could convert the XP cost to GP as with other magical items, though the XP cost could also symbolize the lifeforce of the character who creates the phylacteracy. And if so, that would mean that you cannot convert the XP to GP. What do you guys say about this? (The main question then is, How do you become a lich ingame step by step?) It sure does explain thoroughly. You create the phylactery which stores your soul, taking 4800xp and 120 000 GC. The creation process of the phylactery is when your soul is stored within. It is a magic item afterall requiring the craft wonderous item feat. So... Question: "Is it so simple to become a Lich ingame as to just become lvl 11 and then just create the phylacteracy?" Answer: Yes. Question: "Or do you have to use a spell like Trap the soul or similiar spells to move your soul to the box?" Answer: No. Your questions are thoroughly answered.
Faraer 03-28-07, 08:08 AM	The (lengthy and involved) lichnee process in the Realms is described in REF5 Lords of Darkness (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/1stEdition/v5748btpy7mcz).
ShadezofDis 03-28-07, 11:05 AM	Question: "Is it so simple to become a Lich ingame as to just become lvl 11 and then just create the phylacteracy?" Answer: Yes. It depends on your DM Your questions are thoroughly answered. There, fixed that for ya :D
ShadezofDis 03-28-07, 11:06 AM	The (lengthy and involved) lichnee process in the Realms is described in REF5 Lords of Darkness (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/1stEdition/v5748btpy7mcz). Crikey, I should get my hands on that. I'm a big fan of 1st edition monster ideas (my personal favorite being the rot grub g)
Tevin Kevlak 03-28-07, 11:47 PM	There, fixed that for ya :D It actually only depends on your DM if he/she decides to make a houserule making becoming a lich harder than it is. But if we follow this line of reasoning it depends on your DM if you can take Bard levels or not. According to the rules on becoming a Lich, yes, it is as easy as it says it is.
ShadezofDis 03-29-07, 08:02 AM	It actually only depends on your DM if he/she decides to make a houserule making becoming a lich harder than it is. But if we follow this line of reasoning it depends on your DM if you can take Bard levels or not. According to the rules on becoming a Lich, yes, it is as easy as it says it is. Calling the writeup in the MM a "rule" is absolutely disingenuous, it's vague to the point of uselessness, doesn't go into the enchantment process (do you think you just wave your hand around and poof it's done?) Anyhow, to the OP: it depends upon your DM, if it was Tevin here you'd be all set, if it was myself then you'd best prepare for the hardest adventure you've come across.
Stigger 03-29-07, 08:09 AM	You know, honestly, I would never allow a PC to become a lich... and even if I did, I'd tack on some major penalties they would just never see coming. XP penalties for entering a 'static' state, clerics of Lathander coming after them before they get to be too powerful... trying to take them out while they were still 'fresh' and all, clerics of Kelemvor doing much the same thing, higher level wizards who haven't found the recipe gunning for them to steal it from such an unworthy (read low-level) lich... lots of evil things that would make them regret ever even contemplating the idea, much less going through with it. But hey, that's just me. :D
Tevin Kevlak 03-29-07, 03:07 PM	Calling the writeup in the MM a "rule" is absolutely disingenuous, it's vague to the point of uselessness, doesn't go into the enchantment process (do you think you just wave your hand around and poof it's done?) Anyhow, to the OP: it depends upon your DM, if it was Tevin here you'd be all set, if it was myself then you'd best prepare for the hardest adventure you've come across. Anything involving the enchantment process that isn't covered by the "must create a phylactery with the craft wonderous item feat" is fluff and thus has nothing to do with the "rules". Do you honestly believe I would describe the creation process as "you use the power of your feat to create a phylactery... welcome to lich-dom"? Also, there is nothing over powering about the lich. When you become a lich you give up 4 caster levels, since liches have to have at least 11 caster levels this makes a bare minimum lich an ECL 15 character that can only cast 6th level spells instead of 8th level spells (a huge penalty for a straight casting character), and by level 20 will only be able to cast 8th level spells, losing their ability to gain acess to their strongest powers. You are also undead and can now be turned/destroyed by good clerics or rebuked/commanded by evil clerics. Your fortitude save now sucks, much more than it already did, since you have no constitution score and are 4 level behind in save progression, so really one well aimed disintegration spell is going to ruin your night of adventuring. Imposing in-game penalties for such a character besides the fact that he is losing 4800 XP and 120 000 GC (note the avrage wealth for a level 11 PC is 66 000 so if your level 11 PC could muster the funds to create his phylactery he would basically have no other magical equipment) is excessive to say the least. Now, if you're imposing these in-game obstacles for story reasons go for it, but what I gleaned from your post, Stigger, is that you would do this just because he became a lich and you want to make him "regret it"... that makes for a fun dnd game let me tell ya. :rolleyes:
Stigger 03-29-07, 03:41 PM	Of course its for story reasons... wouldn't occur to me to do it simply because they did something I didn't like. To me, lichedom is entering a static state where you are suddenly arrested by undeath and further growth and true elightenment and understanding are greatly hindered by the state. Hence the XP penalty there. I have a very dim view of undeath to be honest, and tend towards them as not being as capable as living beings when it comes to personal growth and the like. Set in their ways I suppose is a good way of putting it. As to the clerics/archmage thing... I find it difficult to believe that a lot of said clerics and archmages don't keep an eye out for who's collecting what components from what sources as best they can, so they don't have to deal with some problem later that they could have nipped in the bud before it became a major problem. Archmages I could see doing for more... selfish reasons, but still doing it, and probably more effectively than any cleric. Why buy expensive components and risk exposing your intentions when some young upstart is going to hand you some of them on a silver platter by being stupid and unsubtle... presuming they are of course. If they come up with ways of doing things, even things I don't want them to, by being really clever I gotta give them the benefits of outsmarting all the countermeasures and contingencies I had in mind. If one of my players figured out a way to achieve lichedom and avoid all of those obstacles in his path because of careful planning and cleverness on their part, I'd have to give it to them. I wouldn't like it, but someone who really puts thought and effort into it should be rewarded for it. And it isn't like I'm not going to warn them of the dangers and penalties they're likely going to encounter in the form of 'lore books' they find in their travels. Brilliance should be rewarded in my book, but doing something just because it's 'ubar' is going to get you a beat down in all likelihood. Like just last night during an encounter with an insane elven wizardess who'd been trapped for her and everyone elses own good. (Really) Basically the PC's got tapped to take their cleric into her 'cell' and get close enough to cast a heal on her to restore her sanity. I had a very elaborate battle planned out... which was promptly disintegrated when one of my very smart players who had taken ranks in both diplomacy and perform (dance) asked said crazy elf to dance, made his check and just simply maneuvered her at the cleric so he could cast his spell as they made a pass around him... just had so much style and panache I had to give it to him despite having a lot of forethought just getting totally scrapped because of one natural 20 check. Think I spent a good 5 minutes cackling quietly to myself after that one... since it turned out so much better than I had planned.
ShadezofDis 03-29-07, 04:21 PM	Anything involving the enchantment process that isn't covered by the "must create a phylactery with the craft wonderous item feat" is fluff and thus has nothing to do with the "rules". So material components are "fluff"? Because NONE of the items you need, except for "a box with some strips of parchment", are detailed. Further, the MM only states that the creation of a phylacteracy is an integrall part of the process, not the entirety of the process. Do you honestly believe I would describe the creation process as "you use the power of your feat to create a phylactery... welcome to lich-dom"? Sure read that way, I see that is not your stance however. Also, there is nothing over powering about the lich. So long as you don't count immortality and a lack of mortal needs (food, water, etc) as overpowered. Personally, I find them to be VERY powerful things. ...You are also undead and can now be turned/destroyed by good clerics or rebuked/commanded by evil clerics. Your fortitude save now sucks, much more than it already did, since you have no constitution score and are 4 level behind in save progression, so really one well aimed disintegration spell is going to ruin your night of adventuring. Only the most powerful of good/evil clerics. The fort save sucking isn't that big a deal considering undead immunities, the example of disintegrate is one of the rare situations where the undead immunities wouldn't cover a low fort save. And even should someone disintegrate you it's no biggie, you'll be back on your feet soon enough. Imposing in-game penalties for such a character besides the fact that he is losing 4800 XP and 120 000 GC (note the avrage wealth for a level 11 PC is 66 000 so if your level 11 PC could muster the funds to create his phylactery he would basically have no other magical equipment) is excessive to say the least. Alright, so you're saying that picking up 120k worth of magical components should be a quick run to the market? That's what it reads as, I'm quite sure you don't intend it that way but that's how it reads to myself. I wouldn't allow that in a game I ran, you might be able to buy some of the items you would need but most would be unavailable, requiring the one trying to gain lichdom to either hire people to get the items or to go and get them himself.
Faraer 03-30-07, 11:23 AM	The simple 3E rules abstraction of lichdom doesn't negate what's involved in becoming a lich in the setting, any more than a craftsman doesn't have to find and craft materials because there are craft skills.
ShadezofDis 03-30-07, 12:10 PM	The simple 3E rules abstraction of lichdom doesn't negate what's involved in becoming a lich in the setting, any more than a craftsman doesn't have to find and craft materials because there are craft skills. Fine, just reduce my whole argument to a sentence, you and your concise statements Faraer ;)