Problem with drow assasin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Problem with drow assasin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Wrath_of_Talos
04-17-08, 03:56 PM I know its probably been asked a million times before but how does hide in plain sight work in an underdark setting. Are current dilema is that one of the pc's (an assasin) is complaining that he has to find cover in order to hide instead of simply vanishing into the surrounding darkness. So how does hide in plain sight and the whole vanishing into shadow abilty function against creatures with darkvision?
Lord Karsus
04-17-08, 04:39 PM -With Darkvision, I'd rule that it works. If you are using Infravision, it wouldn't.
Zanan
04-17-08, 06:38 PM HiPS is always something edgy, unless the DM gets some common sense into the players. Here, there should be enough darkness (i.e. shadow) about, as everything that is not in line of sight will "shed" shadow. It may also provide cover, but cover is not required for HiPS and the size of the shadow needed either. By default, it could be the shadow from a stalagtite on the ceiling or something likewise absurd. Furthermore, on a sunlit plaza, you could simple stick an arrow into the sand and it provides shadow a HiPS user could take advantage from. As silly as it may sound. Obviously, I house-ruled this away and you need at least a shadow of your size to hide in.*

*Purist would instantly say: HiPS does not say that you actually hide in the shadow required. All very edgy, as I said ...
Straploknight
04-17-08, 10:45 PM It might be interesting to note that the 3rd ed core DotU has a magical armor property that grants concealment against darvision using creatures
The_Wrath_of_Talos
04-18-08, 10:31 AM It might be interesting to note that the 3rd ed core DotU has a magical armor property that grants concealment against darvision using creatures

I have the book but forgot it at home and will be playin this weekend, do you happen to know the the properties and the enchantment bonus on the armor property.

Because everyone else I play with knows that in order for their to be shadow their must be light and darkness aspects, because shadow is the shade between light and dark. If everything around you is pitch black how can their be a shadow?
Lord Karsus
04-18-08, 12:20 PM Because everyone else I play with knows that in order for their to be shadow their must be light and darkness aspects, because shadow is the shade between light and dark. If everything around you is pitch black how can their be a shadow?

-One could say that shadows are simply the absence of light. If the Underdark is pitch black, then there is obviously an abscence of light, and thus, shadow. Alternativley, the lichens and mosses that grow on cave walls give off faint amounts of luminescence, thus making shadows possible, as light exists, and thus, an absence of light can also exist.
The_Wrath_of_Talos
04-18-08, 02:00 PM -One could say that shadows are simply the absence of light. If the Underdark is pitch black, then there is obviously an abscence of light, and thus, shadow. Alternativley, the lichens and mosses that grow on cave walls give off faint amounts of luminescence, thus making shadows possible, as light exists, and thus, an absence of light can also exist.

U still have the problem of DV then. For everyone with Dark Vision shadow and darkness is no sight imaprement, so how can you hide in something that everyone can see through?
Lord Karsus
04-18-08, 02:42 PM U still have the problem of DV then. For everyone with Dark Vision shadow and darkness is no sight imaprement, so how can you hide in something that everyone can see through?

-Darkvision does indeed pose a problem. But, just like there are degrees of darkness that are simply too dark to see through using normal vision on a regular day, so too can there be patches of darkness that are simply too dark to see through using Darkvision. That's how I fix that problem in my own games.
Khaelieth
04-18-08, 02:46 PM -Darkvision does indeed pose a problem. But, just like there are degrees of darkness that are simply too dark to see through using normal vision on a regular day, so too can there be patches of darkness that are simply too dark to see through using Darkvision. That's how I fix that problem in my own games.

Like magical darkness, such as the drow racial ability? Would be a dead give away with just a black blob there, wouldn't it?

Could rule it as a sorta chameleon ability with regards to darkvision, but i'd personally say darkvision just negates it.
Lord Karsus
04-18-08, 02:50 PM Like magical darkness, such as the drow racial ability? Would be a dead give away with just a black blob there, wouldn't it?

-Magical darkness, sure, that would work. I was talking about just normal, mundane darkness, though. I just say that there are certain "shades" of darkness that their eyes, even with Darkvision, cannot adjust to see through. Just like how it works in our world.
Stigger
04-18-08, 03:29 PM That would seem to negate a large benefit of Darkvision though... I'd just go with a camouflage like explanation for how it works and leave it at that.
Zanan
04-18-08, 04:11 PM I view Darkvision as some sort of enhanced sight, much like owls and other predators of the night have in real life. If nothing obstructs your view, you can clearly see up to your range of vision.
Still as I said, anything that obstructs your view automatically leaves a "shadow" for your vision, i.e. behind the object that obstructs your view. And "Hide in plain sight" simply needs "shadow" somewhere within 10 fet, even if it is behind something that obstructs the Darkvision, i.e. something that is still in the darkness of the Underdark.
DrakulDraequel
04-18-08, 06:01 PM Well, lets take Starless Night as an example. When Drizzt was in the Underdark and he went to Menzoberranzan to thwart the threat that was coming. Before he arrived, he was hiding from a large group of Goblins. I believe he used HiPS when he placed his cloak and body a certain way to blend in with a stalagmite so he could not be detected. Darkvision did not detect him, due to the heat of the stalagmite. Though, if True Seeing was used, I think he would have been spotted.
Stigger
04-18-08, 06:29 PM Think Starless Night was back in 2e when we still had infravision actually...
DrakulDraequel
04-18-08, 06:36 PM Think Starless Night was back in 2e when we still had infravision actually...

Well, you know what I meant. LOL.
Lord Karsus
04-18-08, 11:28 PM Well, you know what I meant. LOL.

-That's a big difference. Piwafwi "bestow"- at least, as per the novels- infrainvisibility.
DrakulDraequel
04-19-08, 01:13 AM He didn't have a Piwafwi during that time. Remember, his Drow garb lost its luster and all the properties they once held. He had a green traveling cloak. However, I am not talking about a Piwafwi. I am talking about how he was able to HiPS by using a stalagmite and blending with its heat signature, to fool a large group of goblins or some type of enemy.
Stigger
04-19-08, 02:19 AM HiPS wasn't around then either that I recall... think that was just artistic license on RAS' part actually.
DrakulDraequel
04-19-08, 12:19 PM Perhaps, but it can be translated as HiPS.
Straploknight
04-19-08, 01:23 PM I remeber the scene, Drizzt was hiding from a bunch of goblins, he had detected them before they were upon him so he had time to blend in with the surrounding environment in much the same way one would hide amongst the trees except in that case stalagmites and stalactites replaced the trees. It was really a case where RAS was embellishing on the practitcal application of the skill and rules at the time.
Lord Karsus
04-19-08, 01:38 PM He didn't have a Piwafwi during that time. Remember, his Drow garb lost its luster and all the properties they once held. He had a green traveling cloak. However, I am not talking about a Piwafwi. I am talking about how he was able to HiPS by using a stalagmite and blending with its heat signature, to fool a large group of goblins or some type of enemy.

-I wasn't referencing a specific instance, but I am again bringing up the distinction between Infravision and Darkvision.
Passivearmada
04-26-08, 10:48 AM Personally, I'd treat an Underdark situation as if it were daytime on the World Above. To HiPS when there's someone with darkvision, a shadow needs to be nearby. Well one could argue that the Underdark is one giant shadow, but to people with darkvision, it is not. So to HiPS, one would need to hide where a shadow would be if the area were illuminated. But if the enemy doesn't have darkvision, they just can't see so it doesn't matter where you are :P
Lord Karsus
04-26-08, 12:38 PM Well one could argue that the Underdark is one giant shadow, but to people with darkvision, it is not. So to HiPS, one would need to hide where a shadow would be if the area were illuminated.

-Exactly. In the illustration provided for Darkvision, there seems to be differing swaths of the color black to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Wrath_of_Talos 04-17-08, 03:56 PM	I know its probably been asked a million times before but how does hide in plain sight work in an underdark setting. Are current dilema is that one of the pc's (an assasin) is complaining that he has to find cover in order to hide instead of simply vanishing into the surrounding darkness. So how does hide in plain sight and the whole vanishing into shadow abilty function against creatures with darkvision?
Lord Karsus 04-17-08, 04:39 PM	-With Darkvision, I'd rule that it works. If you are using Infravision, it wouldn't.
Zanan 04-17-08, 06:38 PM	HiPS is always something edgy, unless the DM gets some common sense into the players. Here, there should be enough darkness (i.e. shadow) about, as everything that is not in line of sight will "shed" shadow. It may also provide cover, but cover is not required for HiPS and the size of the shadow needed either. By default, it could be the shadow from a stalagtite on the ceiling or something likewise absurd. Furthermore, on a sunlit plaza, you could simple stick an arrow into the sand and it provides shadow a HiPS user could take advantage from. As silly as it may sound. Obviously, I house-ruled this away and you need at least a shadow of your size to hide in.* *Purist would instantly say: HiPS does not say that you actually hide in the shadow required. All very edgy, as I said ...
Straploknight 04-17-08, 10:45 PM	It might be interesting to note that the 3rd ed core DotU has a magical armor property that grants concealment against darvision using creatures
The_Wrath_of_Talos 04-18-08, 10:31 AM	It might be interesting to note that the 3rd ed core DotU has a magical armor property that grants concealment against darvision using creatures I have the book but forgot it at home and will be playin this weekend, do you happen to know the the properties and the enchantment bonus on the armor property. Because everyone else I play with knows that in order for their to be shadow their must be light and darkness aspects, because shadow is the shade between light and dark. If everything around you is pitch black how can their be a shadow?
Lord Karsus 04-18-08, 12:20 PM	Because everyone else I play with knows that in order for their to be shadow their must be light and darkness aspects, because shadow is the shade between light and dark. If everything around you is pitch black how can their be a shadow? -One could say that shadows are simply the absence of light. If the Underdark is pitch black, then there is obviously an abscence of light, and thus, shadow. Alternativley, the lichens and mosses that grow on cave walls give off faint amounts of luminescence, thus making shadows possible, as light exists, and thus, an absence of light can also exist.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 04-18-08, 02:00 PM	-One could say that shadows are simply the absence of light. If the Underdark is pitch black, then there is obviously an abscence of light, and thus, shadow. Alternativley, the lichens and mosses that grow on cave walls give off faint amounts of luminescence, thus making shadows possible, as light exists, and thus, an absence of light can also exist. U still have the problem of DV then. For everyone with Dark Vision shadow and darkness is no sight imaprement, so how can you hide in something that everyone can see through?
Lord Karsus 04-18-08, 02:42 PM	U still have the problem of DV then. For everyone with Dark Vision shadow and darkness is no sight imaprement, so how can you hide in something that everyone can see through? -Darkvision does indeed pose a problem. But, just like there are degrees of darkness that are simply too dark to see through using normal vision on a regular day, so too can there be patches of darkness that are simply too dark to see through using Darkvision. That's how I fix that problem in my own games.
Khaelieth 04-18-08, 02:46 PM	-Darkvision does indeed pose a problem. But, just like there are degrees of darkness that are simply too dark to see through using normal vision on a regular day, so too can there be patches of darkness that are simply too dark to see through using Darkvision. That's how I fix that problem in my own games. Like magical darkness, such as the drow racial ability? Would be a dead give away with just a black blob there, wouldn't it? Could rule it as a sorta chameleon ability with regards to darkvision, but i'd personally say darkvision just negates it.
Lord Karsus 04-18-08, 02:50 PM	Like magical darkness, such as the drow racial ability? Would be a dead give away with just a black blob there, wouldn't it? -Magical darkness, sure, that would work. I was talking about just normal, mundane darkness, though. I just say that there are certain "shades" of darkness that their eyes, even with Darkvision, cannot adjust to see through. Just like how it works in our world.
Stigger 04-18-08, 03:29 PM	That would seem to negate a large benefit of Darkvision though... I'd just go with a camouflage like explanation for how it works and leave it at that.
Zanan 04-18-08, 04:11 PM	I view Darkvision as some sort of enhanced sight, much like owls and other predators of the night have in real life. If nothing obstructs your view, you can clearly see up to your range of vision. Still as I said, anything that obstructs your view automatically leaves a "shadow" for your vision, i.e. behind the object that obstructs your view. And "Hide in plain sight" simply needs "shadow" somewhere within 10 fet, even if it is behind something that obstructs the Darkvision, i.e. something that is still in the darkness of the Underdark.
DrakulDraequel 04-18-08, 06:01 PM	Well, lets take Starless Night as an example. When Drizzt was in the Underdark and he went to Menzoberranzan to thwart the threat that was coming. Before he arrived, he was hiding from a large group of Goblins. I believe he used HiPS when he placed his cloak and body a certain way to blend in with a stalagmite so he could not be detected. Darkvision did not detect him, due to the heat of the stalagmite. Though, if True Seeing was used, I think he would have been spotted.
Stigger 04-18-08, 06:29 PM	Think Starless Night was back in 2e when we still had infravision actually...
DrakulDraequel 04-18-08, 06:36 PM	Think Starless Night was back in 2e when we still had infravision actually... Well, you know what I meant. LOL.
Lord Karsus 04-18-08, 11:28 PM	Well, you know what I meant. LOL. -That's a big difference. Piwafwi "bestow"- at least, as per the novels- infrainvisibility.
DrakulDraequel 04-19-08, 01:13 AM	He didn't have a Piwafwi during that time. Remember, his Drow garb lost its luster and all the properties they once held. He had a green traveling cloak. However, I am not talking about a Piwafwi. I am talking about how he was able to HiPS by using a stalagmite and blending with its heat signature, to fool a large group of goblins or some type of enemy.
Stigger 04-19-08, 02:19 AM	HiPS wasn't around then either that I recall... think that was just artistic license on RAS' part actually.
DrakulDraequel 04-19-08, 12:19 PM	Perhaps, but it can be translated as HiPS.
Straploknight 04-19-08, 01:23 PM	I remeber the scene, Drizzt was hiding from a bunch of goblins, he had detected them before they were upon him so he had time to blend in with the surrounding environment in much the same way one would hide amongst the trees except in that case stalagmites and stalactites replaced the trees. It was really a case where RAS was embellishing on the practitcal application of the skill and rules at the time.
Lord Karsus 04-19-08, 01:38 PM	He didn't have a Piwafwi during that time. Remember, his Drow garb lost its luster and all the properties they once held. He had a green traveling cloak. However, I am not talking about a Piwafwi. I am talking about how he was able to HiPS by using a stalagmite and blending with its heat signature, to fool a large group of goblins or some type of enemy. -I wasn't referencing a specific instance, but I am again bringing up the distinction between Infravision and Darkvision.
Passivearmada 04-26-08, 10:48 AM	Personally, I'd treat an Underdark situation as if it were daytime on the World Above. To HiPS when there's someone with darkvision, a shadow needs to be nearby. Well one could argue that the Underdark is one giant shadow, but to people with darkvision, it is not. So to HiPS, one would need to hide where a shadow would be if the area were illuminated. But if the enemy doesn't have darkvision, they just can't see so it doesn't matter where you are :P
Lord Karsus 04-26-08, 12:38 PM	Well one could argue that the Underdark is one giant shadow, but to people with darkvision, it is not. So to HiPS, one would need to hide where a shadow would be if the area were illuminated. -Exactly. In the illustration provided for Darkvision, there seems to be differing swaths of the color black to me.