Races and Racists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Races and Racists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Passivearmada
07-31-07, 06:21 PM I was just wondering about each race and where they are most effective. I, as a DM, don't do the Favored Class thing. I thik nit was a bad idea in the first place. My cousin, a veteran roleplayer said that the halfling fighter was an extremely good character, surprisingly.
I know that in LotR, the elves and dwarves have some kind of conflict going on. I don't know if it's like that in D&D, and if so, why? Also, I would like for someone to change my mind. I just can't find the use in gnomes at all. I've searched, but I just can't find what's so great about them. I used to believe the same about halflings until I created a tiny little halfling village in which I named each resident. I had some time on my hands. So I'd be very glad if someone could change my mind about gnomes.
Thank you.
GothicDan
07-31-07, 11:13 PM Gnomes > Halflings. :)
Neely
08-01-07, 05:00 AM Conflicts between races makes the realms the more realistic in my opinion. I don't know if there is any of such written down since I always do my own thing with it as I see fit for my campaign.
Also remember that elves in north may hold different grudges towards other races than elves from the south for example.

I usually start by reading some background story about the people in the area my campaign will be staged. Most of the time I find interesting events that took place that could trigger their behaviour I will design.
The same background story could be a reason for a different Favoured Class than stated in the Coremanual.

Oh and about gnomes I often hear them say "send in the gnome first!"
You see, they do have a purpose... *giggle*
Passivearmada
08-01-07, 12:28 PM I mean, I don't find the +2 to Constitution useful if they get a penalty to strength. It seems to me that gnomes just make good witty NPCs. And I disagree that gnomes are greater than halflings.
Boda
08-01-07, 01:01 PM I mean, I don't find the +2 to Constitution useful if they get a penalty to strength. It seems to me that gnomes just make good witty NPCs. And I disagree that gnomes are greater than halflings.

maybe he means taller??
ShadezofDis
08-01-07, 01:12 PM Gnomes are thematically a lot cooler than Halflings (well, I dig me some Halflings but Gnomes are a bit more interesting)

They are illusionists of great caliber.
They are inventors of great caliber (even if they are flighty about it *g*).

If you're looking for "stats" reasons then I can't really help you, I don't play races for stat adjustments, I play them for the thematic feel. :)
Selk
08-01-07, 06:39 PM The Forgotten Realms sourcebooks have done a good job laying out the framework for historical enmity between Humans and Elves, and their perceptions of one another's 'shortcomings', but I haven't read anything of friction between Halflings and Gnomes (I haven't read a lot though).

There really should be some dark history, to help pull both races away from the cozy cuteness they're often saddled with. Resource wars, religious wars, slavery, magical experimentation. Stuff like that.

Personally, I think Gnomes capitalize on their reputation for harmlessness, and are ridiculously devious and have a secret cultural tradition of fooling the other races. A people reknown for their illusionists would be quite freaky. Like faeries, but more cultured.
Selk
08-01-07, 06:45 PM The Forgotten Realms sourcebooks have done a good job laying out the framework for historical enmity between Humans and Elves, and their perceptions of one another's 'shortcomings', but I haven't read anything of friction between Halflings and Gnomes (I haven't read a lot though).

There really should be some dark history, to help pull both races away from the cozy cuteness they're often saddled with. Resource wars, religious wars, slavery, magical experimentation. Stuff like that.

Personally, I think Gnomes capitalize on their reputation for harmlessness, and are ridiculously devious and have a secret cultural tradition of fooling the other races. A people reknown for their illusionists would be quite freaky. Like faeries, but more cultured.
Drew1369r
08-01-07, 06:50 PM In the shining south it talked about a war between the ghostwise and lightfoot halflings, nithing in detail.

And gnomes definatly have there usefulness with their tricks and one badass PrC the "Gnome Artificer"

They balance out the halfling... small sive to AC and to hit, more hitpoints instead of extra dex... plus some spell like abilities
boards
08-02-07, 09:03 AM For the elf and dwarf enmity, their is always the fact that dwarves like to chop down trees to feed their forges, while elves have a very strong aversion to such things.
ShadezofDis
08-02-07, 09:20 AM Yep, the basic problem between Elves and Dwarves is that they have VERY different cultures. While, in some cases, respect does exist between the two it's really rather easy to get them at odds due to cultural stereotypes.

Much like an American might view a Spanish person as lazy for taking a siesta in the middle of the day as opposed to working like a dog all day long (obviously this is a generality and has many, many exceptions. I'm just drawing an analogy that I think a lot of people will be able to see)

However, for the most part Dwarves and Elves don't fight because they seldom want the same territory, as boards said though, occasionally they will bicker about the use of resources.
Passivearmada
08-02-07, 09:27 AM Yes, that is a good statement, Boards. It makes plenty of sense now that I'm thinking it over, but what about the dwarven citadels that aren't near forests? Mithral Hall and Mirabar are somewhat near the Lurkwood, and Citadel Felbarr is near to the Moonwood, but what about other dwarves- what do they burn for their forges. Probably orcs, giants, and goblins. :P
It looks to me like gnomes are the only race that haven't participated in any major war. So I guess they're kind of like peace-keepers. What good is a peace-keeper for an adventuring party. Sure, they could be the witty bard diplomat, but couldn't you always use a halfling or half-elf? The gnome still isn't making sense to me. I guess they're good to have as allies, because they can make constructs and inventions to help you in battle.
ShadezofDis
08-02-07, 09:51 AM Yes, that is a good statement, Boards. It makes plenty of sense now that I'm thinking it over, but what about the dwarven citadels that aren't near forests? Mithral Hall and Mirabar are somewhat near the Lurkwood, and Citadel Felbarr is near to the Moonwood, but what about other dwarves- what do they burn for their forges. Probably orcs, giants, and goblins. :P

More than likely it's burnable fungus to start the fires and then coal to keep them going. Either that or peat or feces or something else, or they could be near volcanic vents. There's a wealth of things to burn other than wood. :)

It looks to me like gnomes are the only race that haven't participated in any major war.

That's more than likely incorrect. I don't know of any canon wars but it's not very likely that gnomes have managed to avoid war. Though, if you're speaking of a kingdom at war then I'm not sure there has been an exclusively gnome kingdom (I think Lathan has the largest population of gnomes but I'm not very knowledgeable about the gnomes of FR)

So I guess they're kind of like peace-keepers. What good is a peace-keeper for an adventuring party. Sure, they could be the witty bard diplomat, but couldn't you always use a halfling or half-elf? The gnome still isn't making sense to me. I guess they're good to have as allies, because they can make constructs and inventions to help you in battle.

Ummm. . . what gives you the idea that gnomes are peace-keepers? Further, what gives you the idea that an adventuring gnome would conform to cultural norms? In addition to that, what makes you think that gnomes living in Lathan would be the same as gnomes from Waterdeep would be the same as gnomes from the Moonsea area, ect ect ect?

Adventurers are individuals, rather exceptional individuals at that. It's not unusual to find gnome fighters, gnome rogues, gnome clerics, gnome wizards, ect ect ect.

I haven't read the gnome section of Races of Faerun but I assume you could fine a lot more out about the gnome cultures of the Realms than you know at this time. I'd suggest checking it out. :)
Selk
08-02-07, 03:06 PM Generally, I don't think the Gnomish mindset is fond of the idea of kingship and empire building. They seem well served by existing within and beside other communities where they can take advantage of civilization's creature comforts, but avoid many of its pitfalls, like war. They seem more cosmopolitan and culturally adaptive than their hearthy, pastoral Halfling cousins.

Gnomes have certainly been involved in wars, but the idea of an entire Gnomish nation going to battle seems a little silly to me - like a gypsy army. If they had to resort to war, they'd be a royal pain to fight. They have the best illusionists, good craftsmen, probably more hit points and they require approximately half the rations of a man-sized army. It would be hard to maintain a seige vs. a Gnomish stronghold.

I don't why you'd have to choose either a halfling or a gnome for your party. Why not have both? Or is there some sort of little people aventuring party quota.
Passivearmada
08-02-07, 04:13 PM No there is not. I like gnomes, don't get me wrong. It's just that I like them better as NPCs and in their kingdoms. I think I know why I don't like gnome PCs! In all fantasy worlds, you have humans, elves, and dwarves, and in LotR, hobbits. Orc enemies, yaddya yaddya. I've just never experienced a gnome before. They just don't fit in to the classical adventuring group. But don't worry- I have a way of bending my mind to do what I want, which doesn't make much sense. I mean, I want to like gnomes, so I'll find a way too. There. :)
Suin Bahhar
08-02-07, 04:28 PM Gnomes are funny! And they make the best turnips.
godbeepit
08-02-07, 11:27 PM For the gnomes lack of involvement in major conflicts, I would ask you why would anybody go to war with gnomes? I guess you could say a small village is being threatened, but the gnomes' penchant(sp?) for adventuring would lend itself towards a well defended town. Beyond that, I believe Races of Stone said that people only found a gnome village if the gnomes wanted to be found. What better way to avoid conflict than not existing?

Also, for the adventuring I think the gnomes are better for PCs simply because he's going to be the most readily available plot hook introduction ever. I mean seriously you can just see it: "We lost Nebin AGAIN!?!?!?!? Hey, look under the rocks he might bezOMG its a vampire! And he's got Nebin!!"

And in concerns for why they have constitution is because they're more likely to pass their forced march checks and see more and satisfy their wanderlust. :D
1 ton ghost
08-04-07, 03:50 PM most friciton comes down to alignment in alot of ways. default elf is CG while most dwarves are LG or LN.

think of Civilization too (the game). dwarves are very Industrious, probably Commercial as well. Elves tend to be Religious, maybe Scientific too; they did give magic to the humans who in turn kicked started ancient Netheril and look how well that turned out. for someone that lives centuries, they don't foget quickly and hold long grudges. Humans are generally Industrious and Expansionistic. these are generalizations ppl, not maxims.

gnomes seem like switzerland, smart enough to stay out of major wars and not enough numbers to commit themselves to one. they just keep inventing and going on w/ commerce. a fairly smart gambit. Deep Gnomes, well, they got the short straw. there's not much mention beyond Bligdenstone which is now a close mirror to Myrimdra. *** for tat i suppose. good urban dungeons.
Paix
08-04-07, 04:58 PM As far as the Forgotten realms are concerned, there is no conflict between dwarves and elves, from what I know. They have strong cultural traditions and an ethos that is not always compatible leading to some friction in casual relationships, but nothing inherently opposite or of sufficient magnitude to lead to hostilities.

Gnomes, were the slaves of the Netherese, whom the elves helped liberate and taught the basics of magic, finding that the race has a strong affinity for illusion. After that gnomes diverged. They are mainly known for their underdark habitations and secluded tribes in forests apart from the ones that have been urbanised and live among humans. I guess thematicaly, you may see them as a cross between dwarves and halflings with an added affinity for illusion magic and technology. If technology does not fit your campaign you can easily subsitute it with alchemy.

As for gnomes participating in major conflicts, it does not suit them. Individuals have been present and aided (as in Mithral Hall both during the siege by the drow and by the armies of Obould and Gerti), they were there in Myth Drannor facing the Army of Darkness and would have certainly participated in conflicts throughout the Underdark.
Slayergnome
08-05-07, 03:01 AM Issues between races:(These are BROAD sterotypes. Every race and kingdom can be different and is so)

Dwarfs mentality is one of determination and stubborness. They do a job, do it well, and don't make it fancy unless for good reason.

Elves are flighty. Being long lived they can take their time in all things. They go for decoration since they will be around a very long time and need to keep their minds active.

Humans are short lived, passionate, and often thoughtless in their desire to expand and dominate the areas around them. Due to their short time on the planet they tend to take what they can and enjoy it as fully as possiable.

There have been several conflicts between races throughout the time of Toril.

Gnome are cool becuase:

Halflings are topside creatures while Gnomes are underground, industrial and wizard based. With their higher Con they get a added edge for their Wizards, and can make fine rogues with their persk for small size. They are kinda similar to Dwarfs. They have been involved in major conflicts since they live in many varied kingdoms and are often just like any other citizen and partake in the fighting. They also recently lost one of their strongholds in the underdark to the Drow and have formed a new one. They are the tinkers and thinkers of the longer lived races. They are hard workers but know how to have a good time. They are fighters who know when to let the enemy pass them by. They are fairly good all arond and I enjoy them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Passivearmada 07-31-07, 06:21 PM	I was just wondering about each race and where they are most effective. I, as a DM, don't do the Favored Class thing. I thik nit was a bad idea in the first place. My cousin, a veteran roleplayer said that the halfling fighter was an extremely good character, surprisingly. I know that in LotR, the elves and dwarves have some kind of conflict going on. I don't know if it's like that in D&D, and if so, why? Also, I would like for someone to change my mind. I just can't find the use in gnomes at all. I've searched, but I just can't find what's so great about them. I used to believe the same about halflings until I created a tiny little halfling village in which I named each resident. I had some time on my hands. So I'd be very glad if someone could change my mind about gnomes. Thank you.
GothicDan 07-31-07, 11:13 PM	Gnomes > Halflings. :)
Neely 08-01-07, 05:00 AM	Conflicts between races makes the realms the more realistic in my opinion. I don't know if there is any of such written down since I always do my own thing with it as I see fit for my campaign. Also remember that elves in north may hold different grudges towards other races than elves from the south for example. I usually start by reading some background story about the people in the area my campaign will be staged. Most of the time I find interesting events that took place that could trigger their behaviour I will design. The same background story could be a reason for a different Favoured Class than stated in the Coremanual. Oh and about gnomes I often hear them say "send in the gnome first!" You see, they do have a purpose... giggle
Passivearmada 08-01-07, 12:28 PM	I mean, I don't find the +2 to Constitution useful if they get a penalty to strength. It seems to me that gnomes just make good witty NPCs. And I disagree that gnomes are greater than halflings.
Boda 08-01-07, 01:01 PM	I mean, I don't find the +2 to Constitution useful if they get a penalty to strength. It seems to me that gnomes just make good witty NPCs. And I disagree that gnomes are greater than halflings. maybe he means taller??
ShadezofDis 08-01-07, 01:12 PM	Gnomes are thematically a lot cooler than Halflings (well, I dig me some Halflings but Gnomes are a bit more interesting) They are illusionists of great caliber. They are inventors of great caliber (even if they are flighty about it g). If you're looking for "stats" reasons then I can't really help you, I don't play races for stat adjustments, I play them for the thematic feel. :)
Selk 08-01-07, 06:39 PM	The Forgotten Realms sourcebooks have done a good job laying out the framework for historical enmity between Humans and Elves, and their perceptions of one another's 'shortcomings', but I haven't read anything of friction between Halflings and Gnomes (I haven't read a lot though). There really should be some dark history, to help pull both races away from the cozy cuteness they're often saddled with. Resource wars, religious wars, slavery, magical experimentation. Stuff like that. Personally, I think Gnomes capitalize on their reputation for harmlessness, and are ridiculously devious and have a secret cultural tradition of fooling the other races. A people reknown for their illusionists would be quite freaky. Like faeries, but more cultured.
Selk 08-01-07, 06:45 PM	The Forgotten Realms sourcebooks have done a good job laying out the framework for historical enmity between Humans and Elves, and their perceptions of one another's 'shortcomings', but I haven't read anything of friction between Halflings and Gnomes (I haven't read a lot though). There really should be some dark history, to help pull both races away from the cozy cuteness they're often saddled with. Resource wars, religious wars, slavery, magical experimentation. Stuff like that. Personally, I think Gnomes capitalize on their reputation for harmlessness, and are ridiculously devious and have a secret cultural tradition of fooling the other races. A people reknown for their illusionists would be quite freaky. Like faeries, but more cultured.
Drew1369r 08-01-07, 06:50 PM	In the shining south it talked about a war between the ghostwise and lightfoot halflings, nithing in detail. And gnomes definatly have there usefulness with their tricks and one badass PrC the "Gnome Artificer" They balance out the halfling... small sive to AC and to hit, more hitpoints instead of extra dex... plus some spell like abilities
boards 08-02-07, 09:03 AM	For the elf and dwarf enmity, their is always the fact that dwarves like to chop down trees to feed their forges, while elves have a very strong aversion to such things.
ShadezofDis 08-02-07, 09:20 AM	Yep, the basic problem between Elves and Dwarves is that they have VERY different cultures. While, in some cases, respect does exist between the two it's really rather easy to get them at odds due to cultural stereotypes. Much like an American might view a Spanish person as lazy for taking a siesta in the middle of the day as opposed to working like a dog all day long (obviously this is a generality and has many, many exceptions. I'm just drawing an analogy that I think a lot of people will be able to see) However, for the most part Dwarves and Elves don't fight because they seldom want the same territory, as boards said though, occasionally they will bicker about the use of resources.
Passivearmada 08-02-07, 09:27 AM	Yes, that is a good statement, Boards. It makes plenty of sense now that I'm thinking it over, but what about the dwarven citadels that aren't near forests? Mithral Hall and Mirabar are somewhat near the Lurkwood, and Citadel Felbarr is near to the Moonwood, but what about other dwarves- what do they burn for their forges. Probably orcs, giants, and goblins. :P It looks to me like gnomes are the only race that haven't participated in any major war. So I guess they're kind of like peace-keepers. What good is a peace-keeper for an adventuring party. Sure, they could be the witty bard diplomat, but couldn't you always use a halfling or half-elf? The gnome still isn't making sense to me. I guess they're good to have as allies, because they can make constructs and inventions to help you in battle.
ShadezofDis 08-02-07, 09:51 AM	Yes, that is a good statement, Boards. It makes plenty of sense now that I'm thinking it over, but what about the dwarven citadels that aren't near forests? Mithral Hall and Mirabar are somewhat near the Lurkwood, and Citadel Felbarr is near to the Moonwood, but what about other dwarves- what do they burn for their forges. Probably orcs, giants, and goblins. :P More than likely it's burnable fungus to start the fires and then coal to keep them going. Either that or peat or feces or something else, or they could be near volcanic vents. There's a wealth of things to burn other than wood. :) It looks to me like gnomes are the only race that haven't participated in any major war. That's more than likely incorrect. I don't know of any canon wars but it's not very likely that gnomes have managed to avoid war. Though, if you're speaking of a kingdom at war then I'm not sure there has been an exclusively gnome kingdom (I think Lathan has the largest population of gnomes but I'm not very knowledgeable about the gnomes of FR) So I guess they're kind of like peace-keepers. What good is a peace-keeper for an adventuring party. Sure, they could be the witty bard diplomat, but couldn't you always use a halfling or half-elf? The gnome still isn't making sense to me. I guess they're good to have as allies, because they can make constructs and inventions to help you in battle. Ummm. . . what gives you the idea that gnomes are peace-keepers? Further, what gives you the idea that an adventuring gnome would conform to cultural norms? In addition to that, what makes you think that gnomes living in Lathan would be the same as gnomes from Waterdeep would be the same as gnomes from the Moonsea area, ect ect ect? Adventurers are individuals, rather exceptional individuals at that. It's not unusual to find gnome fighters, gnome rogues, gnome clerics, gnome wizards, ect ect ect. I haven't read the gnome section of Races of Faerun but I assume you could fine a lot more out about the gnome cultures of the Realms than you know at this time. I'd suggest checking it out. :)
Selk 08-02-07, 03:06 PM	Generally, I don't think the Gnomish mindset is fond of the idea of kingship and empire building. They seem well served by existing within and beside other communities where they can take advantage of civilization's creature comforts, but avoid many of its pitfalls, like war. They seem more cosmopolitan and culturally adaptive than their hearthy, pastoral Halfling cousins. Gnomes have certainly been involved in wars, but the idea of an entire Gnomish nation going to battle seems a little silly to me - like a gypsy army. If they had to resort to war, they'd be a royal pain to fight. They have the best illusionists, good craftsmen, probably more hit points and they require approximately half the rations of a man-sized army. It would be hard to maintain a seige vs. a Gnomish stronghold. I don't why you'd have to choose either a halfling or a gnome for your party. Why not have both? Or is there some sort of little people aventuring party quota.
Passivearmada 08-02-07, 04:13 PM	No there is not. I like gnomes, don't get me wrong. It's just that I like them better as NPCs and in their kingdoms. I think I know why I don't like gnome PCs! In all fantasy worlds, you have humans, elves, and dwarves, and in LotR, hobbits. Orc enemies, yaddya yaddya. I've just never experienced a gnome before. They just don't fit in to the classical adventuring group. But don't worry- I have a way of bending my mind to do what I want, which doesn't make much sense. I mean, I want to like gnomes, so I'll find a way too. There. :)
Suin Bahhar 08-02-07, 04:28 PM	Gnomes are funny! And they make the best turnips.
godbeepit 08-02-07, 11:27 PM	For the gnomes lack of involvement in major conflicts, I would ask you why would anybody go to war with gnomes? I guess you could say a small village is being threatened, but the gnomes' penchant(sp?) for adventuring would lend itself towards a well defended town. Beyond that, I believe Races of Stone said that people only found a gnome village if the gnomes wanted to be found. What better way to avoid conflict than not existing? Also, for the adventuring I think the gnomes are better for PCs simply because he's going to be the most readily available plot hook introduction ever. I mean seriously you can just see it: "We lost Nebin AGAIN!?!?!?!? Hey, look under the rocks he might bezOMG its a vampire! And he's got Nebin!!" And in concerns for why they have constitution is because they're more likely to pass their forced march checks and see more and satisfy their wanderlust. :D
1 ton ghost 08-04-07, 03:50 PM	most friciton comes down to alignment in alot of ways. default elf is CG while most dwarves are LG or LN. think of Civilization too (the game). dwarves are very Industrious, probably Commercial as well. Elves tend to be Religious, maybe Scientific too; they did give magic to the humans who in turn kicked started ancient Netheril and look how well that turned out. for someone that lives centuries, they don't foget quickly and hold long grudges. Humans are generally Industrious and Expansionistic. these are generalizations ppl, not maxims. gnomes seem like switzerland, smart enough to stay out of major wars and not enough numbers to commit themselves to one. they just keep inventing and going on w/ commerce. a fairly smart gambit. Deep Gnomes, well, they got the short straw. there's not much mention beyond Bligdenstone which is now a close mirror to Myrimdra. *** for tat i suppose. good urban dungeons.
Paix 08-04-07, 04:58 PM	As far as the Forgotten realms are concerned, there is no conflict between dwarves and elves, from what I know. They have strong cultural traditions and an ethos that is not always compatible leading to some friction in casual relationships, but nothing inherently opposite or of sufficient magnitude to lead to hostilities. Gnomes, were the slaves of the Netherese, whom the elves helped liberate and taught the basics of magic, finding that the race has a strong affinity for illusion. After that gnomes diverged. They are mainly known for their underdark habitations and secluded tribes in forests apart from the ones that have been urbanised and live among humans. I guess thematicaly, you may see them as a cross between dwarves and halflings with an added affinity for illusion magic and technology. If technology does not fit your campaign you can easily subsitute it with alchemy. As for gnomes participating in major conflicts, it does not suit them. Individuals have been present and aided (as in Mithral Hall both during the siege by the drow and by the armies of Obould and Gerti), they were there in Myth Drannor facing the Army of Darkness and would have certainly participated in conflicts throughout the Underdark.
Slayergnome 08-05-07, 03:01 AM	Issues between races:(These are BROAD sterotypes. Every race and kingdom can be different and is so) Dwarfs mentality is one of determination and stubborness. They do a job, do it well, and don't make it fancy unless for good reason. Elves are flighty. Being long lived they can take their time in all things. They go for decoration since they will be around a very long time and need to keep their minds active. Humans are short lived, passionate, and often thoughtless in their desire to expand and dominate the areas around them. Due to their short time on the planet they tend to take what they can and enjoy it as fully as possiable. There have been several conflicts between races throughout the time of Toril. Gnome are cool becuase: Halflings are topside creatures while Gnomes are underground, industrial and wizard based. With their higher Con they get a added edge for their Wizards, and can make fine rogues with their persk for small size. They are kinda similar to Dwarfs. They have been involved in major conflicts since they live in many varied kingdoms and are often just like any other citizen and partake in the fighting. They also recently lost one of their strongholds in the underdark to the Drow and have formed a new one. They are the tinkers and thinkers of the longer lived races. They are hard workers but know how to have a good time. They are fighters who know when to let the enemy pass them by. They are fairly good all arond and I enjoy them.