Shadovar Spellfire Wielder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shadovar Spellfire Wielder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dravial
04-02-07, 12:52 PM Ok this is just something I have been bouncing around.

Character is a citizen of Shade(Human) 1st level wizard.
As one of his feats he selects Spellfire Wielder and Spellcasting Prodigy.
At 3rd level the character chooses to use Shadow weave magic.

This is where I run into the bouncing around. Neither feat or any of the discriptions actually say how it would be effected. Although extreamly rare the Spellfire is a gift that is indiscreminant. It is possible for a human, drow, elf, gnome etc.. to wield this power. With the add of an alternate source of magic (shadow weave) how would the corruption of spellfire be handled. IE would heal become harm. Or remain as presented due to the fact that clerics of shar who use the shadow weave can heal normally.
Sortfiere
04-02-07, 01:07 PM Ok this is just something I have been bouncing around.

Character is a citizen of Shade(Human) 1st level wizard.
As one of his feats he selects Spellfire Wielder and Spellcasting Prodigy.
At 3rd level the character chooses to use Shadow weave magic.

This is where I run into the bouncing around. Neither feat or any of the discriptions actually say how it would be effected. Although extreamly rare the Spellfire is a gift that is indiscreminant. It is possible for a human, drow, elf, gnome etc.. to wield this power. With the add of an alternate source of magic (shadow weave) how would the corruption of spellfire be handled. IE would heal become harm. Or remain as presented due to the fact that clerics of shar who use the shadow weave can heal normally.

A Dm can of course read the rules literally and allow or disallow anything he/she wishes. However, I've seen nothing officially addressing a spellfire wielder choosing the shadow weave magic feat.

I would rule that since spellfire is essentially the raw magical energy of the Weave, taking the Shadow weave magic feat would effectively bar the character from the Weave, and thus nullify and waste your shadovar's Spellfire Wielder feat. But that's just me interpreting the implied repercussions for taking the shadow weave magic feat.
Dravial
04-02-07, 01:15 PM In one way I see that in another I was looking at it just tapping into the shadow weave and being raw shadow weave energy. Guess thats why I say bouncing it around.

Thank you for your input its much appreciated :)
LittleCarp04
04-02-07, 11:25 PM I would say he uses raw essence of the shadow weave, but it would no longer heal regular people, but would heal shadovar and other creatures with a shadowy subtype.

Also, Shadovar dont create shades out of characters less than lvl 5.
Dravial
04-03-07, 01:45 AM Correct on the fifth level. A citizen of shade is know as a Shadovar (which are base humans). The Shades (human with Shade templet)themselves are tested for loyalty give up part of there soul for shadow stuff after they have proven themselves (gotten fifth level and show loyalty to the city of Shade).
Alediran
04-04-07, 08:14 AM Spellfire is a gift of Mystra to somebody, she would never give spellfire to a citizen of Shade, unless se has the security that it will be used to weaken Shar's and Shadow Weave power in one way or another.
MaskedOne
04-06-07, 12:48 AM It's a DM grey area with a couple answers:

1) RAW, it works, nothing not described by the published rules comes of it. I.E. both powers work with minimal side effect.

2) Greenwood, no mortal can harness both powers at once. SW and Spellfire meet in character, character dies messily. This is not to be confused with using spellfire against SW magic, which does work sort of.

3) Me, I don't allow you to aquire both at once unless you're bribing me heavily in cash so the point is moot. I just rule the innate connection to the Weave granted by Spellfire prevents access to the Shadow Weave.

4) Can't think of one so fill in whatever you like.

Notably, I'm assuming Weave spellfire. It might be possible for Shar to make a cheap imitation form to hand out that works differently.
The Simbul
04-06-07, 04:06 AM Regardless of how your DM rules the matter, the more pressing problem is how a citizen of Shade could be born with spellfire and not attract the attention of the higher ranking denizens of the enclave, whose motives might not be very benign as far as the character is concerned...

Every Shadovar is inspected by the Determinists at the age of majority to assess their aptitudes and set them on the proper course of training to serve the enclave. I think the presence of spellfire within someone is likely to attract their attention during those tests and divinations, and the result might either be a hasty escape from the city, or a terrible fate as a subject of experimentation, sacrifice to Shar, or the theft of the ability altogether, depending on which Prince manages to get ahold of you first. :(
ShadezofDis
04-06-07, 11:19 AM I'm going to do a reread, but I was pretty sure that Spellfire . . . wait. . . does Magic of Faerun get into Spellfire?

I had been under the impression that Spellfire was "raw magic" and thus "outside the Weave" so to speak.

If that were so then I would say there's no problem with a SW user having Spellfire as the SW wouldn't touch the Spellfire either.

But I am operating from an area of ignorance :)

Just point me to the more appropriate source and I'll read up a bit.
Ramenth
04-06-07, 05:53 PM Spellfire =! Silver Fire.

I was also under the impression that Spellfire was raw magic, not Raw Weave, since Raw Weave is Silver Fire.
Stigger
04-06-07, 06:27 PM Magic of Faerun says its "refined, controlled, raw magic."
ShadezofDis
04-06-07, 06:52 PM 2) Greenwood, no mortal can harness both powers at once. SW and Spellfire meet in character, character dies messily. This is not to be confused with using spellfire against SW magic, which does work sort of.

Notably, I'm assuming Weave spellfire. It might be possible for Shar to make a cheap imitation form to hand out that works differently.

Do we know why Greenwood says that? Or is it still unrevealed?

And do you make the distinction of Weave spellfire because the spellfire is controlled through the Weave?

Magic of Faerun says its "refined, controlled, raw magic."

Which then makes my question "refined and controlled how?"

Ah ignorance(mine), thanks for not sharing that particular trait guys, makes my research efforts so simple ;)
Stigger
04-06-07, 08:07 PM I would presume that the 'refined and controlled' refers to the will of the weilder more than a specific 'weave interface' being employed. Otherwise it would just be spellcasting... at least that's my own interpretation of the matter.
ShadezofDis
04-06-07, 08:16 PM I would presume that the 'refined and controlled' refers to the will of the weilder more than a specific 'weave interface' being employed. Otherwise it would just be spellcasting... at least that's my own interpretation of the matter.

I tend to agree, though even if it used the weave I wouldn't say it'd be just like spellcasting. Similar, yes, but still different.
MaskedOne
04-06-07, 09:23 PM Do we know why Greenwood says that? Or is it still unrevealed?

And do you make the distinction of Weave spellfire because the spellfire is controlled through the Weave?

Out of Game:
He approaches it as the player want to have his cake and eat it too (i.e. hey cool I get this super-powered rare grant from Mystra and I can access the Weave made specifically to bypass her portfolio at the same time, SPECIAL) scenario and there are limits to how far Greenwood permits that.

In-Game:

I'd have to hunt down the reference and that may take awhile.

I make the distinction because Greenwood has suggested and I'm willing to accept the possibility that Shar could create her own lesser form of spellfire.

Side-note:
Silver Fire is not raw Weave magic. It is an extension of Mystra's divine power that the Chosen being entrusted to carry part of said power are actually able to access and wield.
Dark Wizard
04-06-07, 10:44 PM Nothing to support my opinion but I would use a guideline like that of many mechanics tied to Mystra and her church, if you're in so deep into her mysteries you can never take Shadow Weave feats, they just don't work even if you do take them. Whatever connection you have to the regular weave is so overpowering that it blocks access to the Shadow Weave. Then nothing stops you from trying to work up a shadow spellfire.
ShadezofDis
04-07-07, 01:56 AM Out of Game:
He ... that.

In-Game:
I'd have to hunt down the reference and that may take awhile.

I make... spellfire.

Well, honestly, I'm not allowing the two in my current game and someone would have to write me an amazing story for me to allow spellfire (or hefty bribes of cash) or roll 1% twice (it's probably still stacking the odds in the PCs favor but I'm a nice guy *g*) but I really want to cement my knowledge on magic, the weave, the shadow weave, ect.
MaskedOne
04-07-07, 02:15 AM The data you want is somewhere within 05 or 06 replies from Ed on Candlekeep, I believe. I know a side topic related to it should be showing up around April 06 and a discussion referencing it occurred around April 06 on the WotC forums. Blast it, Kuje could be annoying but he had a better handle on Ed's commentary than I do. Moving on, if you have anything remotely close to a fast internet connection, you'd be better off searching the discussions in the those time periods than waiting for me. I have a fast connection but I'll probably be working completely from my cell phone (I love this phone) till monday and while it provides the ability to surf the net with speed, it does not lend itself to rapidly finding specific data out of a very large background unless I already know right where I'm going. A condition that almost never applies to Candlekeep since I do not willingly visit that site for extended periods of time.

GothicDan, KarsustheMad or Old Sage might be able to shortcut your search. I'd try Old Sage first.
ShadezofDis
04-07-07, 02:35 AM GothicDan, KarsustheMad or Old Sage might be able to shortcut your search. I'd try Old Sage first.

I've been a regular at the keep for a while now too, thanks for narrowing it down for me :)

I've been slowly making my way through Ed's replies but. . . wow, it's a lot. (and I've only been "getting back in the game" for roughly a year now *g*)
MaskedOne
04-07-07, 02:44 AM If you're using the Keep, contact Kuje or hunt down the index he made and pray. Be warned, the April 06 data is a tangential topic on the Keep. It is not what you are looking for precisely, the best you might get from it is a reference to what you do want. I can't even guarantee the year for you want on the Keep. I can guarantee it predates May of 06 and but that's it. If Kuje is still active and willing, he'll be a better guide there. I really don't like the place. It's occasionally useful but not so much so that I've mustered the patience to spend more than 45 minutes at a time there.
Stigger
04-07-07, 07:39 AM I tend to agree, though even if it used the weave I wouldn't say it'd be just like spellcasting. Similar, yes, but still different.

Hmmm... re-reading that post of mine it didn't come out quite how I intended it to. What I meant by 'just like' spellcasting is that if it were a weave-specific interface, taking SW would either negate the ability to channel spellfire, or that the spellfire would negate the ability to access the SW, or possibly if the DM was feeling really mean, both feats would cancel the other out and both be effectively lost and wasted if he decided spellfire and the SW were incompatible. Seems a bit harsh I'm sure, but if you're channelling raw magic and effectively try to tamper with its 'polarity' something really, really bad could very well happen, presuming that spellfire does have more affinity with the weave rather than the SW... kinda depends on how you choose to interpret this stuff.
ShadezofDis
04-07-07, 09:59 AM Hmmm... re-reading that post of mine it didn't come out quite how I intended it to. ... kinda depends on how you choose to interpret this stuff.

:doh:

I agree completely :)
ShadezofDis
04-07-07, 10:00 AM If you're using the Keep, contact Kuje or hunt down the index he made and pray. Be warned, the April 06 data is a tangential topic on the Keep. It is not what you are looking for precisely, the best you might get from it is a reference to what you do want. I can't even guarantee the year for you want on the Keep. I can guarantee it predates May of 06 and but that's it. If Kuje is still active and willing, he'll be a better guide there. I really don't like the place. It's occasionally useful but not so much so that I've mustered the patience to spend more than 45 minutes at a time there.

Haha, well, I have no problem with the Keep but it doesn't tend to have as much traffic. Thanks for the advice on navigating Ed's replies and I sorta figured it'd be more inference than specific (isn't that the way it always works ;))

Thanks again
MaskedOne
04-07-07, 07:22 PM Hmm, there is direct answer or at least quote just not in that month on Candlekeep and I don't have can't narrow it down without checking the April quote first. Moving on, now.
MaskedOne
04-09-07, 05:50 PM Took a little while to track down and possibly not the quote I was remembering or equally likely my memory is faulty.

kuje31, Ed wanted me to reiterate that he’s not the right person to ask about official 3.5e games rules questions (he’d refer this one to Rich Baker), but if this arose in a situation where he was DM, Ed would not allow access to both Shadow Weave and Weave-based effects (including spellfire). In his words, that’s like the ‘greedy-greedy’ space soldier who wants to fire a matter-ray and an anti-matter ray at the same time. Nuh-uh.

and from March 15, 2006 partial in-game data, still no messy death

March 15, 2006: I sent this threat to Ed Greenwood for the definitive two coppers' worth, and he's replied.

Here's Ed:

The concept of darkfire or shadowfire is attractive, but to champion it requires a misunderstanding of what the Shadow Weave really is. It's NOT (despite the propaganda betimes put out by the clergy of Shar) a separate (and equal) system of magic to the Weave; rather, it exists as an echo of the Weave, matching and surpassing the Weave only when Shar personally feeds it with her divine power (and, being an essentially a selfish, ruthless entity, such feedings will be rare acts indeed; she doesn't CARE what happens to mortal worshippers).

Spellfire is the raw energy of magic, a taste of the way magic was before there was a Weave, restricted (in some small ways) by the Weave (that is, by the will of Mystra). The Shadow Weave works by drawing on this same energy, so there is no shadowfire: there is only spellfire. Shar as a divine power could give certain of her mortal followers a "darkfire" analagous to the silver fire of Mystra (sharing her divine power, in other words), IF she desired to.

She could not give the Shadow Weave users spellfire, because it, by its very nature, consumes and rends shadow weave-magic far more swiftly and more widely than it does Weave-based spells.

To those who argue that Shar could kill Mystra or destroy the Weave: those two things are the same, as Mystra IS the Weave. No mortal yet knows what would then happen, but it should be obvious that as an echo of the Weave, the Shadow Weave itself would also be destroyed (or would collapse).

Remember, the Weave isn't the energies of magic. The Weave is magic: that is, a system of harnessing those energies by means of an existing body of spells.

The new TOME OF MAGIC presents three other "systems" of harnessing energies ("magical forces," most sages would call them). One of those systems is Shadow Magic, and it provides magic that followers of Shar could well turn to, either if the Weave is gone, OR if a DM wants to postulate that Shadow Weave users can tap into this system. Unfortunately, one of the things that Shadow Magic as presented in that tome doesn't provide users is "shadowfire" or darkfire as it's been discussed in this thread thus far.

Various TSR and WotC designers and fiction writers and I have discussed these matters many times over the years, to hammer out agreement on the specifics of what Mystra can and can't do, what Shar can and can't do, and what the Weave and the Shadow Weave can and can't do. Please remember two things: divine situations in the Realms aren't static; there will inevitably be "developments" in the struggle between Shar and Mystra. And as the creator of Shar, Mystra, AND the Realms, I'm in a position to see things more clearly than anyone else.

So saith Ed.

Interesting, VERY interesting.

love to all,
THO

March 15, 2006: Good point, Arivia.

So unless I find an alternate quote, Ed is against Spellfire and Shadow Weave being simultaneously available to the same character but there is not a guaranteed messy death scene. Shrug, If I find the quote I was thinking of, I'll put it up with a date posted. The April quote that led me to this was amusingly enough actually posted in late February. Gotta love timing.
ShadezofDis
04-09-07, 09:50 PM Took a little while to track down and possibly not the quote I was remembering or equally likely my memory is faulty.

and from March 15, 2006 partial in-game data, still no messy death

So unless I find an alternate quote, Ed is against Spellfire and Shadow Weave being simultaneously available to the same character but there is not a guaranteed messy death scene. Shrug, If I find the quote I was thinking of, I'll put it up with a date posted. The April quote that led me to this was amusingly enough actually posted in late February. Gotta love timing.

Thanks! Due to life and work I haven't had time to look yet.

I think I'm gonna have to work through all of Ed's replies. From those quotes it looks like my take on the Weave and the Shadow Weave is still off :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dravial 04-02-07, 12:52 PM	Ok this is just something I have been bouncing around. Character is a citizen of Shade(Human) 1st level wizard. As one of his feats he selects Spellfire Wielder and Spellcasting Prodigy. At 3rd level the character chooses to use Shadow weave magic. This is where I run into the bouncing around. Neither feat or any of the discriptions actually say how it would be effected. Although extreamly rare the Spellfire is a gift that is indiscreminant. It is possible for a human, drow, elf, gnome etc.. to wield this power. With the add of an alternate source of magic (shadow weave) how would the corruption of spellfire be handled. IE would heal become harm. Or remain as presented due to the fact that clerics of shar who use the shadow weave can heal normally.
Sortfiere 04-02-07, 01:07 PM	Ok this is just something I have been bouncing around. Character is a citizen of Shade(Human) 1st level wizard. As one of his feats he selects Spellfire Wielder and Spellcasting Prodigy. At 3rd level the character chooses to use Shadow weave magic. This is where I run into the bouncing around. Neither feat or any of the discriptions actually say how it would be effected. Although extreamly rare the Spellfire is a gift that is indiscreminant. It is possible for a human, drow, elf, gnome etc.. to wield this power. With the add of an alternate source of magic (shadow weave) how would the corruption of spellfire be handled. IE would heal become harm. Or remain as presented due to the fact that clerics of shar who use the shadow weave can heal normally. A Dm can of course read the rules literally and allow or disallow anything he/she wishes. However, I've seen nothing officially addressing a spellfire wielder choosing the shadow weave magic feat. I would rule that since spellfire is essentially the raw magical energy of the Weave, taking the Shadow weave magic feat would effectively bar the character from the Weave, and thus nullify and waste your shadovar's Spellfire Wielder feat. But that's just me interpreting the implied repercussions for taking the shadow weave magic feat.
Dravial 04-02-07, 01:15 PM	In one way I see that in another I was looking at it just tapping into the shadow weave and being raw shadow weave energy. Guess thats why I say bouncing it around. Thank you for your input its much appreciated :)
LittleCarp04 04-02-07, 11:25 PM	I would say he uses raw essence of the shadow weave, but it would no longer heal regular people, but would heal shadovar and other creatures with a shadowy subtype. Also, Shadovar dont create shades out of characters less than lvl 5.
Dravial 04-03-07, 01:45 AM	Correct on the fifth level. A citizen of shade is know as a Shadovar (which are base humans). The Shades (human with Shade templet)themselves are tested for loyalty give up part of there soul for shadow stuff after they have proven themselves (gotten fifth level and show loyalty to the city of Shade).
Alediran 04-04-07, 08:14 AM	Spellfire is a gift of Mystra to somebody, she would never give spellfire to a citizen of Shade, unless se has the security that it will be used to weaken Shar's and Shadow Weave power in one way or another.
MaskedOne 04-06-07, 12:48 AM	It's a DM grey area with a couple answers: 1) RAW, it works, nothing not described by the published rules comes of it. I.E. both powers work with minimal side effect. 2) Greenwood, no mortal can harness both powers at once. SW and Spellfire meet in character, character dies messily. This is not to be confused with using spellfire against SW magic, which does work sort of. 3) Me, I don't allow you to aquire both at once unless you're bribing me heavily in cash so the point is moot. I just rule the innate connection to the Weave granted by Spellfire prevents access to the Shadow Weave. 4) Can't think of one so fill in whatever you like. Notably, I'm assuming Weave spellfire. It might be possible for Shar to make a cheap imitation form to hand out that works differently.
The Simbul 04-06-07, 04:06 AM	Regardless of how your DM rules the matter, the more pressing problem is how a citizen of Shade could be born with spellfire and not attract the attention of the higher ranking denizens of the enclave, whose motives might not be very benign as far as the character is concerned... Every Shadovar is inspected by the Determinists at the age of majority to assess their aptitudes and set them on the proper course of training to serve the enclave. I think the presence of spellfire within someone is likely to attract their attention during those tests and divinations, and the result might either be a hasty escape from the city, or a terrible fate as a subject of experimentation, sacrifice to Shar, or the theft of the ability altogether, depending on which Prince manages to get ahold of you first. :(
ShadezofDis 04-06-07, 11:19 AM	I'm going to do a reread, but I was pretty sure that Spellfire . . . wait. . . does Magic of Faerun get into Spellfire? I had been under the impression that Spellfire was "raw magic" and thus "outside the Weave" so to speak. If that were so then I would say there's no problem with a SW user having Spellfire as the SW wouldn't touch the Spellfire either. But I am operating from an area of ignorance :) Just point me to the more appropriate source and I'll read up a bit.
Ramenth 04-06-07, 05:53 PM	Spellfire =! Silver Fire. I was also under the impression that Spellfire was raw magic, not Raw Weave, since Raw Weave is Silver Fire.
Stigger 04-06-07, 06:27 PM	Magic of Faerun says its "refined, controlled, raw magic."
ShadezofDis 04-06-07, 06:52 PM	2) Greenwood, no mortal can harness both powers at once. SW and Spellfire meet in character, character dies messily. This is not to be confused with using spellfire against SW magic, which does work sort of. Notably, I'm assuming Weave spellfire. It might be possible for Shar to make a cheap imitation form to hand out that works differently. Do we know why Greenwood says that? Or is it still unrevealed? And do you make the distinction of Weave spellfire because the spellfire is controlled through the Weave? Magic of Faerun says its "refined, controlled, raw magic." Which then makes my question "refined and controlled how?" Ah ignorance(mine), thanks for not sharing that particular trait guys, makes my research efforts so simple ;)
Stigger 04-06-07, 08:07 PM	I would presume that the 'refined and controlled' refers to the will of the weilder more than a specific 'weave interface' being employed. Otherwise it would just be spellcasting... at least that's my own interpretation of the matter.
ShadezofDis 04-06-07, 08:16 PM	I would presume that the 'refined and controlled' refers to the will of the weilder more than a specific 'weave interface' being employed. Otherwise it would just be spellcasting... at least that's my own interpretation of the matter. I tend to agree, though even if it used the weave I wouldn't say it'd be just like spellcasting. Similar, yes, but still different.
MaskedOne 04-06-07, 09:23 PM	Do we know why Greenwood says that? Or is it still unrevealed? And do you make the distinction of Weave spellfire because the spellfire is controlled through the Weave? Out of Game: He approaches it as the player want to have his cake and eat it too (i.e. hey cool I get this super-powered rare grant from Mystra and I can access the Weave made specifically to bypass her portfolio at the same time, SPECIAL) scenario and there are limits to how far Greenwood permits that. In-Game: I'd have to hunt down the reference and that may take awhile. I make the distinction because Greenwood has suggested and I'm willing to accept the possibility that Shar could create her own lesser form of spellfire. Side-note: Silver Fire is not raw Weave magic. It is an extension of Mystra's divine power that the Chosen being entrusted to carry part of said power are actually able to access and wield.
Dark Wizard 04-06-07, 10:44 PM	Nothing to support my opinion but I would use a guideline like that of many mechanics tied to Mystra and her church, if you're in so deep into her mysteries you can never take Shadow Weave feats, they just don't work even if you do take them. Whatever connection you have to the regular weave is so overpowering that it blocks access to the Shadow Weave. Then nothing stops you from trying to work up a shadow spellfire.
ShadezofDis 04-07-07, 01:56 AM	Out of Game: He ... that. In-Game: I'd have to hunt down the reference and that may take awhile. I make... spellfire. Well, honestly, I'm not allowing the two in my current game and someone would have to write me an amazing story for me to allow spellfire (or hefty bribes of cash) or roll 1% twice (it's probably still stacking the odds in the PCs favor but I'm a nice guy g) but I really want to cement my knowledge on magic, the weave, the shadow weave, ect.
MaskedOne 04-07-07, 02:15 AM	The data you want is somewhere within 05 or 06 replies from Ed on Candlekeep, I believe. I know a side topic related to it should be showing up around April 06 and a discussion referencing it occurred around April 06 on the WotC forums. Blast it, Kuje could be annoying but he had a better handle on Ed's commentary than I do. Moving on, if you have anything remotely close to a fast internet connection, you'd be better off searching the discussions in the those time periods than waiting for me. I have a fast connection but I'll probably be working completely from my cell phone (I love this phone) till monday and while it provides the ability to surf the net with speed, it does not lend itself to rapidly finding specific data out of a very large background unless I already know right where I'm going. A condition that almost never applies to Candlekeep since I do not willingly visit that site for extended periods of time. GothicDan, KarsustheMad or Old Sage might be able to shortcut your search. I'd try Old Sage first.
ShadezofDis 04-07-07, 02:35 AM	GothicDan, KarsustheMad or Old Sage might be able to shortcut your search. I'd try Old Sage first. I've been a regular at the keep for a while now too, thanks for narrowing it down for me :) I've been slowly making my way through Ed's replies but. . . wow, it's a lot. (and I've only been "getting back in the game" for roughly a year now g)
MaskedOne 04-07-07, 02:44 AM	If you're using the Keep, contact Kuje or hunt down the index he made and pray. Be warned, the April 06 data is a tangential topic on the Keep. It is not what you are looking for precisely, the best you might get from it is a reference to what you do want. I can't even guarantee the year for you want on the Keep. I can guarantee it predates May of 06 and but that's it. If Kuje is still active and willing, he'll be a better guide there. I really don't like the place. It's occasionally useful but not so much so that I've mustered the patience to spend more than 45 minutes at a time there.
Stigger 04-07-07, 07:39 AM	I tend to agree, though even if it used the weave I wouldn't say it'd be just like spellcasting. Similar, yes, but still different. Hmmm... re-reading that post of mine it didn't come out quite how I intended it to. What I meant by 'just like' spellcasting is that if it were a weave-specific interface, taking SW would either negate the ability to channel spellfire, or that the spellfire would negate the ability to access the SW, or possibly if the DM was feeling really mean, both feats would cancel the other out and both be effectively lost and wasted if he decided spellfire and the SW were incompatible. Seems a bit harsh I'm sure, but if you're channelling raw magic and effectively try to tamper with its 'polarity' something really, really bad could very well happen, presuming that spellfire does have more affinity with the weave rather than the SW... kinda depends on how you choose to interpret this stuff.
ShadezofDis 04-07-07, 09:59 AM	Hmmm... re-reading that post of mine it didn't come out quite how I intended it to. ... kinda depends on how you choose to interpret this stuff. :doh: I agree completely :)
ShadezofDis 04-07-07, 10:00 AM	If you're using the Keep, contact Kuje or hunt down the index he made and pray. Be warned, the April 06 data is a tangential topic on the Keep. It is not what you are looking for precisely, the best you might get from it is a reference to what you do want. I can't even guarantee the year for you want on the Keep. I can guarantee it predates May of 06 and but that's it. If Kuje is still active and willing, he'll be a better guide there. I really don't like the place. It's occasionally useful but not so much so that I've mustered the patience to spend more than 45 minutes at a time there. Haha, well, I have no problem with the Keep but it doesn't tend to have as much traffic. Thanks for the advice on navigating Ed's replies and I sorta figured it'd be more inference than specific (isn't that the way it always works ;)) Thanks again
MaskedOne 04-07-07, 07:22 PM	Hmm, there is direct answer or at least quote just not in that month on Candlekeep and I don't have can't narrow it down without checking the April quote first. Moving on, now.
MaskedOne 04-09-07, 05:50 PM	Took a little while to track down and possibly not the quote I was remembering or equally likely my memory is faulty. kuje31, Ed wanted me to reiterate that he’s not the right person to ask about official 3.5e games rules questions (he’d refer this one to Rich Baker), but if this arose in a situation where he was DM, Ed would not allow access to both Shadow Weave and Weave-based effects (including spellfire). In his words, that’s like the ‘greedy-greedy’ space soldier who wants to fire a matter-ray and an anti-matter ray at the same time. Nuh-uh. and from March 15, 2006 partial in-game data, still no messy death March 15, 2006: I sent this threat to Ed Greenwood for the definitive two coppers' worth, and he's replied. Here's Ed: The concept of darkfire or shadowfire is attractive, but to champion it requires a misunderstanding of what the Shadow Weave really is. It's NOT (despite the propaganda betimes put out by the clergy of Shar) a separate (and equal) system of magic to the Weave; rather, it exists as an echo of the Weave, matching and surpassing the Weave only when Shar personally feeds it with her divine power (and, being an essentially a selfish, ruthless entity, such feedings will be rare acts indeed; she doesn't CARE what happens to mortal worshippers). Spellfire is the raw energy of magic, a taste of the way magic was before there was a Weave, restricted (in some small ways) by the Weave (that is, by the will of Mystra). The Shadow Weave works by drawing on this same energy, so there is no shadowfire: there is only spellfire. Shar as a divine power could give certain of her mortal followers a "darkfire" analagous to the silver fire of Mystra (sharing her divine power, in other words), IF she desired to. She could not give the Shadow Weave users spellfire, because it, by its very nature, consumes and rends shadow weave-magic far more swiftly and more widely than it does Weave-based spells. To those who argue that Shar could kill Mystra or destroy the Weave: those two things are the same, as Mystra IS the Weave. No mortal yet knows what would then happen, but it should be obvious that as an echo of the Weave, the Shadow Weave itself would also be destroyed (or would collapse). Remember, the Weave isn't the energies of magic. The Weave is magic: that is, a system of harnessing those energies by means of an existing body of spells. The new TOME OF MAGIC presents three other "systems" of harnessing energies ("magical forces," most sages would call them). One of those systems is Shadow Magic, and it provides magic that followers of Shar could well turn to, either if the Weave is gone, OR if a DM wants to postulate that Shadow Weave users can tap into this system. Unfortunately, one of the things that Shadow Magic as presented in that tome doesn't provide users is "shadowfire" or darkfire as it's been discussed in this thread thus far. Various TSR and WotC designers and fiction writers and I have discussed these matters many times over the years, to hammer out agreement on the specifics of what Mystra can and can't do, what Shar can and can't do, and what the Weave and the Shadow Weave can and can't do. Please remember two things: divine situations in the Realms aren't static; there will inevitably be "developments" in the struggle between Shar and Mystra. And as the creator of Shar, Mystra, AND the Realms, I'm in a position to see things more clearly than anyone else. So saith Ed. Interesting, VERY interesting. love to all, THO March 15, 2006: Good point, Arivia. So unless I find an alternate quote, Ed is against Spellfire and Shadow Weave being simultaneously available to the same character but there is not a guaranteed messy death scene. Shrug, If I find the quote I was thinking of, I'll put it up with a date posted. The April quote that led me to this was amusingly enough actually posted in late February. Gotta love timing.
ShadezofDis 04-09-07, 09:50 PM	Took a little while to track down and possibly not the quote I was remembering or equally likely my memory is faulty. and from March 15, 2006 partial in-game data, still no messy death So unless I find an alternate quote, Ed is against Spellfire and Shadow Weave being simultaneously available to the same character but there is not a guaranteed messy death scene. Shrug, If I find the quote I was thinking of, I'll put it up with a date posted. The April quote that led me to this was amusingly enough actually posted in late February. Gotta love timing. Thanks! Due to life and work I haven't had time to look yet. I think I'm gonna have to work through all of Ed's replies. From those quotes it looks like my take on the Weave and the Shadow Weave is still off :)