Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Black Kitten 10-15-07, 07:56 AM	Or the 'dark elves'. I know these guys were transformed by the Elven gods into the Drow long ago, but what did they leave? How where they before they descended to the Underdark? These questions are starting to become more and more important now my group has discovered a huge city below the ground they believe to be of Elvish origin. Seeing they are unable to read the texts on the walls, they don't know for certain yet. So I kindda wondered what kind of people I should expect to see in the Dark Elves. The loathed Drow they are today, or more like arrogant black Sun Elves? And would these Elves have their own roots of Druidism?
Suin Bahhar 10-15-07, 08:25 AM	Ooh awsome! Some questions about predescent dark elves are answered in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=825000). A portion of Fearuns dark elves are from Threnody, the desolate world were Kiriansalee ascended to godhood. Some theories say another portion hail from fearie, where they were one warlike clan of forest dwelling guerillas and mages. They were very different from sunelves even then. Their druidism would be more tropical or southern styled. I think it would still resemble the traditions of green elven druidism closely.
MarkusTay63 10-15-07, 09:32 AM	That was an evil thread. :P
Zanan 10-15-07, 10:41 AM	A bit (as in, a BIT) of the Ilythiiri life and customs were described in Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet - Island of Elves. But in essence, we know very very little of anything or anyone pre-Descent, not just the dark elves. Oh, well, they had one of the main centres of elven culture back then, so do not expect them, to be like the modern day wild elves or wood elves. I'd rather expect that even amongst themselves they had various sub-"groups" which behaved differently, much like modern-Faerūn-day humans. You see, their empire(s) stretched over half of Southern Faerūn. BTW, the Ilythiiri were one "tribe" or nation of the dark elves. One other, the Miyeritar(i) are known too. It is not known whether any dark elves from Kiaransalee's (or any other) world have come to Faerūn though.
Black Kitten 10-15-07, 10:53 AM	BTW, the Ilythiiri were one "tribe" or nation of the dark elves. One other, the Miyeritar(i) are known too. I mainly had them encounter it as one of the few words they could read (1 elf and 2 half-elves in the group of 4) and mentioned it as an Elvish synomyn to 'evil'. I know not all Dark Elves where Ilythiiri.
Suin Bahhar 10-15-07, 12:48 PM	That was an evil thread. :P Yes, lets make this one just as evil! :D No, actually hope everyone uses thread necromancy to spew bile in that thread and keep this one cleaner... Anyway. The Illithiiri had very advanced magic and warfare competing with the sun elven works on an even footing. So druidism only would fail to describe their accomplishments as a community. They had blackmarble cities raised by magics with spiralling towers; grand temples to several dieties and demons out of the standard Seldarine (such as Ghaunadar); they practiced slavery (had enslaved several wemic tribes around the ancient Shaar) and had already had some skirmishes with other elves (green elves and sea elves). In E:IoE Ka'Arnalist ruled in one blackmarble city close to the sea, Attornash. Love him so much. He's one of the most powerful and inventive mages in Fearuns history and the first dark elf Lolthite.
Zanan 10-15-07, 06:30 PM	I would be cautious with this "first Lolthite" remark. He was surely one of the earliest and even more likely one of the most powerful. But so far I haven't read a word him being the first one. ;)
The_Shaman 10-15-07, 07:43 PM	BTW, the Ilythiiri were one "tribe" or nation of the dark elves. One other, the Miyeritar(i) are known too. It is not known whether any dark elves from Kiaransalee's (or any other) world have come to Faerūn though. Hmm, I always wondered exactly what happened to the survivors of Miyeritar (I think it had dark elves and other elves, probably wood or moon, as well). IIRC it was stated in LEoF that they were also affected by Corellon's curse (unintentionally, I suspect) and might have had to go underground too. Still it'd be a shame if there wasn't more on that group.
Old Sage 10-15-07, 09:02 PM	Hmm, I always wondered exactly what happened to the survivors of Miyeritar (I think it had dark elves and other elves, probably wood or moon, as well). IIRC it was stated in LEoF that they were also affected by Corellon's curse (unintentionally, I suspect) and might have had to go underground too. Still it'd be a shame if there wasn't more on that group.Consider the wise words of George Krashos:- "Seriously, my take on the dark elves into drow thing is that the Ilythiiri deserved it. Surviving Miyeritari on the whole deserved it too. Why? Well, it's likely that after the Dark Disaster, renegade Miyeritari dark elves turned to Ilythiir for aid - and likely were corrupted themselves in doing so. My personal belief is that notwithstanding what the sources say, not every dark elf was transformed into drow in -10,000 DR. However, the ones that weren't were so few and scattered to the winds that their bloodlines played out with elven interbreeding over the years. That 50/50 chance for either sub-race rule is a bit like russian roulette when you are trying to maintain your race numbers."
Lord Karsus 10-15-07, 11:52 PM	I would be cautious with this "first Lolthite" remark. He was surely one of the earliest and even more likely one of the most powerful. But so far I haven't read a word him being the first one. ;) -Evermeet: Island of the Elves certainly implies it.
Zanan 10-16-07, 04:46 AM	My personal belief is that notwithstanding what the sources say, not every dark elf was transformed into drow in -10,000 DR. However, the ones that weren't were so few and scattered to the winds that their bloodlines played out with elven interbreeding over the years. That 50/50 chance for either sub-race rule is a bit like russian roulette when you are trying to maintain your race numbers." LEoF actually spells clearly what happened. The elven high magic ritual designed to put away with the dark elves of Ilythiir went out of hand, much like The Sundering or that Jamdaath (sp?) ritual and all dark elves were indeed curse. Miyeritar was a realm of dark and "green" elves, but when the Descent happened, it was already gone, Dark Disaster and all. So only the surviors and refugees were affected, unless they had transformed into something else before, see Blackstaff. Evermeet implies that he was a one-time consort of the Spider Queen herself. Does that make him the "first" one though? Who knows. I just point at the wording here - to keep people from posting things which are not as clear as one might think. For others will take it as fact and soon it grow arms and legs, you know.
Alediran 10-16-07, 01:03 PM	He actually wasn't a consort of the Spider Queen, since she acquired that title after absorbing the original Spider Queen, who was a drow that experienced the wonders of the Unseelie Court (and thus making every single drow/crinti afraid of the dark faeries) Elaine is a genius ^^
Lord Karsus 10-16-07, 03:05 PM	Evermeet implies that he was a one-time consort of the Spider Queen herself. Does that make him the "first" one though? Who knows. I just point at the wording here - to keep people from posting things which are not as clear as one might think. For others will take it as fact and soon it grow arms and legs, you know. -Lolth had not established herself in Realmspace before she spied Ka'Narlist and...'came onto him'.
Zanan 10-16-07, 07:00 PM	He actually wasn't a consort of the Spider Queen, since she acquired that title after absorbing the original Spider Queen, who was a drow that experienced the wonders of the Unseelie Court (and thus making every single drow/crinti afraid of the dark faeries) Wow. That is a belter! You just need to find someone else to believe it ... BTW, speaking of Elaine, going by her novel, it was actually Kiaransalee who had coined the name "drow" for "her" dark elves of worlds where she ruled and not Lolth et al. Lolth - on her way to reclaim divinity again - went after the Seldarine's children by herself and - Lord Karsus - it was someone else who drew the Spider Queen to Toril "again", that moon elven lass Kethryllia. Do note though that the FR Lolth was actually a FR Seldarine goddess beforehand, a.k.a. Araushnee. Not that we know of any cults back then, but anyway. She did use the mage as a means of corrupting /turning the dark elves of the South towards her, no doubt about that.
Lord Karsus 10-16-07, 08:07 PM	Lolth - on her way to reclaim divinity again - went after the Seldarine's children by herself and - Lord Karsus - it was someone else who drew the Spider Queen to Toril "again", that moon elven lass Kethryllia. Do note though that the FR Lolth was actually a FR Seldarine goddess beforehand, a.k.a. Araushnee. Not that we know of any cults back then, but anyway. She did use the mage as a means of corrupting /turning the dark elves of the South towards her, no doubt about that. -Araushnee wasn't a deity worshipped in Realmspace, that we know of. And, there is evidence that she never was. Chiefly among the evidence was that there weren't even any Elves in the Crystal Sphere while the goddess was Araushnee. The first Elves immigrated to Realmspace circa -27,000 DR, and, by this point, Araushnee had already become Lolth. -Yes, Kethryllia Ammarillis Lolth's attention to Realmspace, but is was for the first time. Lolth notes that (I don't have Evermeet on hand) that she never realized such a place existed, and that corrupting the Elves there would be an excellent way to get back at Corellon Larethian.
Suin Bahhar 10-16-07, 08:42 PM	So the dark elves weren't Araushnees people before the Descent? Somehow that doesn't sound right. I thought she was the matron god of the dark elves on fearie and weaver of all elven fates.
Lord Karsus 10-16-07, 10:51 PM	So the dark elves weren't Araushnees people before the Descent? Somehow that doesn't sound right. I thought she was the matron god of the dark elves on fearie and weaver of all elven fates. -They were. However, they were not in Realmspace. They were somewhere else- most likely Faerie. The first recorded presence of Dark Elves on Abeir-Toril was circa -27,000. Keep in mind that I am treating Araushnee and Lolth as two seperate entities, although they are one and the same. But, neither Lolth or Araushnee had followers in Realmspace until Kethryllia Ammarillis attracted her to the Crystal Sphere.
Zanan 10-17-07, 06:30 AM	Lord Karsus ... double check the lorebooks. They were her's before the Descent, because she let them into it. And she was their patron before as Araushnee too, long before her own "fall from grace". But we speak of very shady and misty times here and claiming stuff said about this as "defo fact" is always a bit edgy. Where the dark elves (who are now re-styled as "darker green elves" thanks to the GHotR) came from is explained as well.
Suin Bahhar 10-17-07, 10:51 AM	Araushnee, as a weaver of life threads, had an affinity for webs and spiders even before her "fall from grace" so darker green elves or dark elves could even have been spiderkissers on Fearie already. I could see her popularity rising even amongst gold elves when she was the official consort of Correllon and gave birth to such beatiful creatures as Vhaerun and Eilistraee. The actions of the fallen mother tied the children the most to Fearun, but if Araushnee didn't have followers in Realmspace where did she get her worship juice? Fearie and Threnody? Hmmm On Threnody Araushnee must have allowed Kiriansalee to ascend, as a dark elf experiment with overthrowing the Seldarine on a single world. Maybe she had this event happen outside of Correllons view, telling him little lies about events on a world filled with her kin. A different possibility is that Threndoy did not have dieties protecting the interests of followers (a material world without links to the outer planes) allowing Kiriansalee free reign and ascension by mass murder, breaking free into the multiverse and the diefic domains for the first time.
Lord Karsus 10-17-07, 10:55 AM	Lord Karsus ... double check the lorebooks. They were her's before the Descent, because she let them into it. And she was their patron before as Araushnee too, long before her own "fall from grace". But we speak of very shady and misty times here and claiming stuff said about this as "defo fact" is always a bit edgy. Where the dark elves (who are now re-styled as "darker green elves" thanks to the GHotR) came from is explained as well. -I never said that Dark Elves weren't in Araushnee's portfolio. A post above, I verified it. But again, they weren't in Realmspace. -The Dark Elves who came to Realmspace came through portals that were opened by the Fey, who "pushed" the Wood Elves through them, to mess with the Dragons of Abeir-Toril. There is nothing that mentions Araushnee at all, and by this point, she is already Lolth, anyway. It is my hypothesis that, because of the agressive nature of the Dark Elves, they entered the portals seeking to conquer new lands, other than the lands they already held control of in Faerie. -The Dark Elves who came to Realmspace and settled Atorrnash were worshippers of Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur. Ka'Narlist basically says that the lower-classes worship Vhaeraun, while those in power worship Ghaunadaur. We don't know who or what the Dark Elves who stayed in Faerie worshipped. -After Lolth "courted" Ka'Narlist, the worship of Lolth picked up in Attornash, and then in the Ilythiiri empire once the city-state was washed away after the Sundering, circa -24,400. That leaves about three thousand years where Araushnee/Lolth is not a patron of the Dark Elves. The actions of the fallen mother tied the children the most to Fearun, but if Araushnee didn't have followers in Realmspace where did she get her worship juice? Fearie and Threnody? Hmmm -A deity does not necessarily need worshippers to survive. The Seldarine, for example, came into existence before Elves. Remember, Elves were born from the blood of Corellon. How could Corellon bleed if he didn't exist? :)
Suin Bahhar 10-17-07, 11:27 AM	Agreed, but it's still odd her being a MATRON of dark elves and not being worshipped by her own kind. There must have been priests of Araushnee among some of the dark elves in other parts of the mutliverse and fearie. I would think Araushnees worship must have continued even after her fall. Only the dogma changed when she became more active again in her new form as the head of the dark seldarine. Her mysticism and symbolism required only minor changes of her former clergy that way. During a long period she may have been mum to her followers pleas (strangely familiar to her current Silence). Vhaeraun was also already fallen out of the Seldarine (a fact maybe even unkown to his dark elven followers) when the first dark elven settlers came to Fearun. So they could have heard form Vhaerauns clergy Araushnee would come back to them if they did exaclty what the clergy said...
Zanan 10-18-07, 12:53 PM	I doubt your reasoning, Lord, but will only come back to you on Saturday, work and all. Too much is made of that mage here. He was just one character mentioned and we have no clues whatsoever on the rest. True, Elaine mentions him in the novel, but that does not make him the prime dark elf at the time, or one that changed the nation's course. If you see it that way, fair enough, I'd still be somewhat cautions about definite statements.
MarkusTay63 10-18-07, 02:13 PM	I didn't bother reading through this entire threa (sorry) because the last time I defended the Illythiir or drew conclusions I got into a heated argument. :( However, I just read the LAST post, and I would have to agree that it is a huge leap to say K'arnilist was the 'ultimate' Dark Elven Mage. All I took away from that novel was that he was the ruler of a SINGLE citystate, and that he was somewhat more evil and crueler then most, hence his drawing Lolth's attantion. I would gather his attitudes wer definately NOT atypical of the entire Dark Elven culture (hence his removal from them at a safe distance), but his poer level might have been on par with the leaders of other Dark Elven settlements. We simply do NOT know. But here's food for thought - we know that the Illythiir were a massive culture in the south, and that Miyritar existed in the North. By no means does that mean that there weren't many other smaller dark Elven settlements around. If K'narlist was the the 'Most Powerful' and 'Uber' Deep Elven Mage of his time, why did he rule but one City State? Why wasn't he located in the center of Illythiir culture and running things? No... he was the first to be encountered by Sharlario Moonflower (?) when he ventured south, indicating that K'narlist was living at the very fringe of the Illythiir lands.
Shiftkitty 10-18-07, 03:45 PM	How does this click with the Arcane Age suplements? I've wondered if they've changed things since these were published. It was these supplements that set me against Corellon. The curse that blackened the dark elves was applied to ALL dark elves, even those who were active against their brethren. Either Corellon is a racist bastitch, or the elves who said they got the order from Corellon were even more evil than any dark elf, Ilythiiri or Miyeritari. (Both survive as genetic strains in my campaign and influence personalities for the drow therein.)
1 ton ghost 10-18-07, 03:52 PM	unlikely they'll elaborate on it as they are busy as Hell w/ 4th ed on the horizon...and lining of their pockets to worry about a small historical abstraction as this. though it is a good question. nj. the Ilythiiri left behind very little i'm guessing. given their wicked bent and one Hell of a grudge to nurse, i'm sure they adopted a scorched earth policy in that they would want to leave nothing for the surface elves during The Descent. why leave any magic, natural resources, intel for the enemy, right? and i'm sure what wasn't destroyed out of prideful malice was probably quickly "tiddied up" by the surface elves to help w/ their own versions of things and not be a constant reminder of their races' epic betrayal. however, i'm sure a small portion might exist as a monument to the Ilythiiri's deceit and treachery, a lesson to surface elves ala Pearl Harbor, Auswitz, etc. given the immense time that has passed, even "leftover" would be picked clean and have very little remains. even Elven High Magic has a shelf life and all. even untouched by the ppl of FR, time and water would destroy their old surface holdings like anything else. Hell, look at the pyramids, cheops/kufu specifically. that's only 1,500 BC. we're talking millenina for the drow... still, it's compelling in that, again, w/ the corny in-game maxim, it's a "forgotten realm". would probably make for an interesting dungeon.
Suin Bahhar 10-18-07, 05:04 PM	unlikely they'll elaborate on it as they are busy as Hell w/ 4th ed on the horizon...and lining of their pockets to worry about a small historical abstraction as this. though it is a good question. nj. the Ilythiiri left behind very little i'm guessing. given their wicked bent and one Hell of a grudge to nurse, i'm sure they adopted a scorched earth policy in that they would want to leave nothing for the surface elves during The Descent. why leave any magic, natural resources, intel for the enemy, right?The Descent must have been a chaotic and painfull business. Light blindness and sensitivity applied to all dark elves almost instantly must have made your proposed salvaging of relics and stuff quite painfull and difficult. and i'm sure what wasn't destroyed out of prideful malice was probably quickly "tiddied up" by the surface elves to help w/ their own versions of things and not be a constant reminder of their races' epic betrayal. however, i'm sure a small portion might exist as a monument to the Ilythiiri's deceit and treachery, a lesson to surface elves ala Pearl Harbor, Auswitz, etc. given the immense time that has passed, even "leftover" would be picked clean and have very little remains. even Elven High Magic has a shelf life and all. even untouched by the ppl of FR, time and water would destroy their old surface holdings like anything else. Hell, look at the pyramids, cheops/kufu specifically. that's only 1,500 BC. we're talking millenina for the drow... still, it's compelling in that, again, w/ the corny in-game maxim, it's a "forgotten realm". would probably make for an interesting dungeon.The terraforming spells the dark elven magii ( I like to call them Earthcallers or Stonesingers) used for building homes are quite advanced. Crystal domes are remarkably resistant to wear and tear, and most elven homes are build with large translucent quartzcrystals for support. Elves build things to LAST which dovetailes nicely with their sustainable lifestyles. The Ilythiiri were even more magnificent and creative with these citybuilding spells during the Crown Wars and created the first subterranean elven structures (like Athamault of LEoF). The southern regions of the realms must have been very active vulcanicly or tectonicly as large areas of basalt were used by Ilythiiri to create the black citadels they inhabited across the current Shaar and Thethyr. Sun and Moon elves lived in areas with quartz and marble, so their typical white castles are logical in the more northern areas.
Zanan 10-18-07, 05:16 PM	Do note that Storm of the Dead sheds a new light on the "technicalities" of the Descent. It looks as if the faerzress was created by the high magic and drew all dark elves below, creating a massive longing. Obviously, as is stated in the lorebooks, at the time, the dark elves fell in their thousands to the horrors of the Underdark and the hostile environment as such.
Lord Karsus 10-18-07, 07:48 PM	The terraforming spells the dark elven magii ( I like to call them Earthcallers or Stonesingers) used for building homes are quite advanced. Crystal domes are remarkably resistant to wear and tear, and most elven homes are build with large translucent quartzcrystals for support. Elves build things to LAST which dovetailes nicely with their sustainable lifestyles. The Ilythiiri were even more magnificent and creative with these citybuilding spells during the Crown Wars and created the first subterranean elven structures (like Athamault of LEoF). The southern regions of the realms must have been very active vulcanicly or tectonicly as large areas of basalt were used by Ilythiiri to create the black citadels they inhabited across the current Shaar and Thethyr. Sun and Moon elves lived in areas with quartz and marble, so their typical white castles are logical in the more northern areas. -It's an Elven High Magic ritual known as 'Elaorman' that creates and coaxes the magical crystal to grow. I doubt your reasoning, Lord, but will only come back to you on Saturday, work and all. -Fair enough. -By the way- in the future, continue to call me 'Lord'. I like that! :p True, Elaine mentions him in the novel, but that does not make him the prime dark elf at the time, or one that changed the nation's course. -That he shaped his state's destiny and fate is fact, not conjecture and extrapolation. However, I just read the LAST post, and I would have to agree that it is a huge leap to say K'arnilist was the 'ultimate' Dark Elven Mage. -Have we yet been introduced to a Dark Elf/Drow who is on par with his amount of power and influence? We simply do NOT know. -Since when has that stopped you? :P
Suin Bahhar 10-19-07, 08:54 AM	-It's an Elven High Magic ritual known as 'Elaorman' that creates and coaxes the magical crystal to grow. This can mean two things. Dark elves had acces to elven high magic OR dark elf citadels were built without strengthened crystals and had to rely on more rocky and less crystalline buildings, and were more susceptical to erosion over time. It could also be that the Ilythiiri had there own form of epic magic to build their crystalline structures. In the underdark drow cities dont show a lot of crystal buildings in the pictures I saw, so they must have lost their version of the Elaorman spell upon the Descent.
Stigger 10-19-07, 09:16 AM	Feh, High Magic is just a fancy name for Epic Magic... nothing there that Correllon could take away from them really. ;) :D
1 ton ghost 10-19-07, 11:08 AM	and another way to put it is artistic license... unless, the super magics are in play or have since become corrupted to influence game play and mechanics, it's usually a moot point, albeit, a convenient one for explaining titanic events like the High Moors, why city 'x' hasn't been overrun by enemies, etc. etc.
Lord Karsus 10-19-07, 12:36 PM	This can mean two things. Dark elves had acces to elven high magic OR dark elf citadels were built without strengthened crystals and had to rely on more rocky and less crystalline buildings, and were more susceptical to erosion over time. It could also be that the Ilythiiri had there own form of epic magic to build their crystalline structures. In the underdark drow cities dont show a lot of crystal buildings in the pictures I saw, so they must have lost their version of the Elaorman spell upon the Descent. -Why wouldn't Dark Elves be able to access Elven High Magic? Drow, on the other hand, are a different case. And no, don't cite Sacrifice of the Widow, because I will shoot anyone who does so down.
Fire_Wraith 10-19-07, 01:18 PM	Do note that Storm of the Dead sheds a new light on the "technicalities" of the Descent. It looks as if the faerzress was created by the high magic and drew all dark elves below, creating a massive longing. Obviously, as is stated in the lorebooks, at the time, the dark elves fell in their thousands to the horrors of the Underdark and the hostile environment as such. Storm of the Dead also sheds quite a bit of light on the difference between the Miyeritari and the Ilythiiri. When Q'arlynd Melarn gains access to the kiira of his ancient ancestors, he learns that when the dark elves of Ilythiir were punished, the survivors of Miyeritar were swept up with them, despite not having taken part in any of the crimes of the Ilythiiri, or in the tainting of their bloodlines with demonic lineage (stated in both SotD, as well as E:IoE). It also makes clear that the dark elves had full access to high magic, and all the other aspects of elven magic, prior to the fall.
Fire_Wraith 10-19-07, 01:24 PM	-Why wouldn't Dark Elves be able to access Elven High Magic? Drow, on the other hand, are a different case. And no, don't cite Sacrifice of the Widow, because I will shoot anyone who does so down. If I recall, in second edition the basis of power for Elven High Magic came from the Elven Community and the bonds that formed it. In a society filled with treachery and backstabbing, such as that of the drow, that sort of communal bond just doesn't exist at all. One could also postulate that the Seldarine had a link to the matter, as well. On top of that, there is the matter of a lack of teachers - those who were skilled in it presumably being 'lost' in the Crown Wars and descent underground, or something (flimsy, yes, but there you are). In third edition, it was never quite spelled out as such, perhaps because Epic Magic was a different matter entirely, that did not require one to fulfill all of the requirements of an Elven High Mage. It simply remained a part of the existing lore.
Shiftkitty 10-19-07, 04:52 PM	You are recaling correctly. 2e made it clear that Elven High magic required the spiritual/emotional support of the entire community. The drow are not trusting enough of one another to achieve that sort of thing. In a part of my campaign, a group of drow have reclaimed some of their old surface lands from before the Descent (amidst LOTS of trouble from locals), and this mistrust the principle force blocking their attempts at restoring Miyeritar. Well, that and the fact that the Dark Disaster has left the High Moor incapable of sustaining much beyond what little is currently there. (Last my campaign saw, the nearby surface elves were having quite a laugh seeing this group trying desperately to keep a sapling alive. Sometimes my players like sessions to involve the complexities of seemingly simple things.)
Lord Karsus 10-19-07, 05:40 PM	If I recall, in second edition the basis of power for Elven High Magic came from the Elven Community and the bonds that formed it. In a society filled with treachery and backstabbing, such as that of the drow, that sort of communal bond just doesn't exist at all. One could also postulate that the Seldarine had a link to the matter, as well. On top of that, there is the matter of a lack of teachers - those who were skilled in it presumably being 'lost' in the Crown Wars and descent underground, or something (flimsy, yes, but there you are). You are recaling correctly. 2e made it clear that Elven High magic required the spiritual/emotional support of the entire community. The drow are not trusting enough of one another to achieve that sort of thing. -Yes, yes. Both of you, very good. :)
Suin Bahhar 10-19-07, 06:32 PM	-Why wouldn't Dark Elves be able to access Elven High Magic? Because they didn't worship Correllon but Vhaeraun and Ghaunadar, they might have had problems of getting Correllons nod of approval for elven high magic. But that would be quite contrived and time consuming for building citadels so Elaorman spells could possible be lesser epic spells not needing divine conformation. Even more important Correllon didn't have aversion to his own darker children yet. Maybe a large number of goodaligned dark elves could even still be fervent worshippers of Correllon. I'm already picturing dark elven bladesinger troupes of surpassing martial skill devoted to Correllon in song and spell could have been possible in Miyeritar. But I don't really like the idea of Correllon actively stopping any spell his children ask for. Being chaotic at heart he could be quite flighty with his own rules for high magic. Or he just doesn't actually micromanage elven high magic everytime. The community aspect of high magic must have been present during the crown wars. At that time the collective feeling of the Ilythiiri must have been one of powerfull hatred twisting their epic spells to unholy beauty. The dark elven communities could actually be split into the powerfull and the lesser clans, so maybe they had two seperate "pools" to tap their refined high magic from, one from the elite and one from the lesser clans emotions. Worship during the last days of the dark elves of elder evils and demonic beings might have twisted even the pools of the lessers to contain even more concentrated negative emotions, enabling the normal high magic to be fueled by them and become more like epic demonic magic. Lolth must have been the key for the Ilytiiri nobles at the end, translating even the most intimate and most secret spells of her consort into diabolic must have been easy for Araushnee.
Shiftkitty 10-19-07, 08:15 PM	dark elven bladesinger troupes I did a read-through of the Bladesinger kit in the 2e Complete Book of Elves. I didn't see anything about worshipping Corellon being a requirement. Is this where I admit I missed something (me? miss something? nooooo!:eek: ), or is this a 3e and later requirement? It just seems to me that a race so hell-bent on war, destruction, and conquest would at least have something equivalent.
GothicDan 10-20-07, 05:32 PM	First of all, Corellon never cursed the Dark Elves. He merely called the people worth and gave them power for the High Magic Ritual, and let them do with it as they wished. There's no published statements as to how or why the Ritual cursed ALL Dark Elves (as LEoF makes this quite clear, even if Krash's opinion would seem to indicate otherwise), but this was not the other Elves' intentions, and there's no indication that it was Corellon's, either. I still blame Lolth. In Demihuman Deities, it talks of the Specialty Priests of Selvetarm being Drow equivalents to the Bladesingers.
Zanan 10-21-07, 05:55 AM	Just a short note here ... there are mentionings of dark elven High Mages, but these are - of course - pre-Descent dark elves and hail from Miyeritar. As has been said before, Elven High Magic is in essence and 3E "just" a form of epic magic. And, as the Last Mythal series has proved, there are more ways to cast Elven High Magic than that "collective-requirement" stuff. And why should there only be one way casting it anyway?! So while the drow are by lore denied the ability to cast Elven High Magic, they are not denied the ability to cast epic magic, once the character is powerful enough. The ways presented in the Lady Penitent series use up various loop holes in the description of High Magic and thus may need to be looked after seperately. Lord Karsus ... I haven't forgotten the Kar'nalist thing, but need to recover from gloating about the slaughter of the Green half of Glasgow first. And no, I won't call you "Lord" for any other reason than telling the rest of the readers whom I am actually addressing. :tie:
GothicDan 10-21-07, 01:19 PM	And why should there only be one way casting it anyway?! Now, you know 'should' is completely meaningless, and the only way of analyzing reality is by perceiving what's known to us. ;)
MarkusTay63 10-21-07, 02:32 PM	The lack of knowledge is not the same as the absence of knowledge - we cannot base everything we know by what little we do know. ;) Do note that Storm of the Dead sheds a new light on the "technicalities" of the Descent. It looks as if the faerzress was created by the high magic and drew all dark elves below, creating a massive longing. Obviously, as is stated in the lorebooks, at the time, the dark elves fell in their thousands to the horrors of the Underdark and the hostile environment as such.Yes... and they had to EAT EACH OTHER - thats from 2e DotU! The surface Elves did this to ALL Dark Elves - women, children, the old and infirmed - all of whom probably stayed at home during the Illythiir 'Crusade'. Miyeritar is just one non-Illythiir Dark Elven culture we are aware of. There exists evidence in Zakhara (the Akota), Kara-Tur (Tsaparang Fortress), and Maztica (the Ancients) of Dark Elven cultures, who were completely unaware of the Crown Wars and were equally cursed by the Gold and Moon Elves. According to the GHotR, the Dark and Green Elves pre-dated the other by at least 1500 years, and were INVITED to live in Abeir-Toril by the Fey. It also goes on to say that these early arrivals were unaware of the Seldarine and worshipped 'Fey' gods - the Yuir Totems, perhaps? Anyhow, I have a feeling that the Seldarine are not as primordial or all-powerful as we once thought, and the Elves were obviously performing mighty magics before Corellon and Co. came around. Feh, High Magic is just a fancy name for Epic Magic... nothing there that Correllon could take away from them really. ;) :DI think something changed at some point, in order to explain why it works differently now. I know this has been discussed in other threads, but I would assume that that the rituals were altered after the fall of Netheril, since the rules of magic itself changed then. If this were the case, then it's not so hard to assume that the High Magic rituals of the Elves could have been adapted to work with other god's blessings, such as the Dark Seldarine. In it's pre-Netheril form, it clearly requires a deity as a catalyst, but since then it's just another Epic magic ritual. My point is, it's canon that the Elves have had to adapt their rituals at least once, so it's not so far fetched to assume they could have done so several other times that we are unaware of.
GothicDan 10-21-07, 02:47 PM	The lack of knowledge is not the same as the adsence of knowledge - we cannot base everything we know by what little we do know. Sure we can. Anyhow, I have a feeling that the Seldarine are not as primordial or all-powerful as we once thought, and the Elves were obviously performing mighty magics before Corellon and Co. came around. The beginning of Evermeet states that they "arose from even older gods." Where did you get the perception they were primordial or all-powerful?
Suin Bahhar 10-21-07, 04:10 PM	I'd love to play in a campaign during the crown wars. Ilythiiri, during the time they inhabited Toril before the coming of the Tintageer refugees, had fastly adapted from a shady jungleforest type elf to more cosmopolitan city building societies. Faster than their green elven brethren. The green elves might have profitted greatly from the knowhow and tenaciousness of the dark elven settlers and I assume they soon became attracted to their magnificent citadels, with dangerous dragonflights common and all. Perhaps the dark elves were already fairly cosmopolitan even before they were invited by the Fey (LeShay?). Being militaristic and bound on conquest usually brings great growth on the knowledge crossreferenced for war, like magic, logistics, engineering and metallurgy. This proces might have influenced early epic fey magics they could have learned from the Fey. This way the dark elves would have been able to repel dragon and giant attacks during their respective prime ages in history.
Shiftkitty 10-21-07, 09:26 PM	Markus Tay The Maztica, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara dark elves you mentioned, what source are they in? I have the box set for Kara Tur, the downloaded books for Maztica, and the sourcebook "Al-Qadim". As I haven't found them in there, I'm guessing they're in a supplement somewhere? Or a novel or two?
boards 10-21-07, 09:34 PM	The beginning of Evermeet states that they "arose from even older gods." Where did you get the perception they were primordial or all-powerful? Do you have an exact quote on this, because I have read the start of that book many times and never seen that part? Edit: The only thing that I could find on this was "The elves were an ancient people, nearly as old as the gods from which they had sprung, and many creatures envied and hated them. To the gods of all these folk - the orcs and ogres, the goblinkin, hobgoblins, bugbears, the evil dragons , creatures of the seas, even beings from the elemental planes - Araushnee carried her seeds of war." Evermeet: Island of the ElvesHowever the second sentence makes it clear that she was talking about the mortal elves springing from gods, not the Seldarine springing from older gods. If you are talking about the source book than a quote from that would be good too.
GothicDan 10-21-07, 11:46 PM	Actually, I THINK that was the quote I was referring to, and I may have misremembered. :) But it sure still sounds good in my head. :)
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 12:54 AM	As has been said before, Elven High Magic is in essence and 3E "just" a form of epic magic. -A change in mechanics shouldn't arbitrarily change lore. That's just kind of 'here or there', though. I just like reminding everyone. And, as the Last Mythal series has proved, there are more ways to cast Elven High Magic than that "collective-requirement" stuff. And why should there only be one way casting it anyway?! -Nothing has changed. There have always been Rituals of Solitude. It's a very large misconception that all Elven High Magic involves a circle of some sort. -Notice how none of the spells that Araevin uses were ever actually written-up in 2e? Were they, they would be Rituals of Solitude. So while the drow are by lore denied the ability to cast Elven High Magic, they are not denied the ability to cast epic magic, once the character is powerful enough. -Of course not. The magics used in the Lady Penitent trilogy, thus far, imply and specifically say that the Epic Magics being used are Elven High Magic. We can always hope that this is an example of the 'unreliable narrator', though 3rd person omniscient narrators are hardly every unreliable. And no, I won't call you "Lord" for any other reason than telling the rest of the readers whom I am actually addressing. -It has a nice ring to it. The lack of knowledge is not the same as the adsence of knowledge - we cannot base everything we know by what little we do know. ;) -Sure we can. It's called science! -The universe is an infinitley large place, and we inhabit only a small niche of it. Logically, then, we only really understand very little of what the entire universe presents. We base everything we know on what little we do know. According to the GHotR, the Dark and Green Elves pre-dated the other by at least 1500 years, and were INVITED to live in Abeir-Toril by the Fey. -The Wood Elves were not so much invited as they were tricked. And then, the Dark Elves were not so much invited as they decided to "crash the party". The Green Elves stumbled through the portals, victims of the Fey's war with Dragonkind, and were strangers in a strange land. They way I see it, the Dark Elves prepared themselves, knowing what they were getting into. I spell it out better in my article in Elves of Faerūn entitled 'The First Coming of the Elves'. It also goes on to say that these early arrivals were unaware of the Seldarine and worshipped 'Fey' gods - the Yuir Totems, perhaps? -The Seelie Court. The Yuir deities were Human deities before they became Wood/Star Elven deities, and as such, could not have existed on Faerie. Well, theoretically, they could have, but there is no reason to believe so.
Reneshat 10-22-07, 03:11 AM	The Crown Wars fascinates me, and I would love to learn more about it. Could someone direct me to books where I could find out more about the Crown War? I guess the reason I am posting this here, is I was reading GHotR. Having never read much into early Realms history, I knew there was a war and a curse, but I didn't know a lot about it. From reading the Grand History, the sun elves were coming out looking almost as bad as the dark elves. So I read this thread and find out that there is apparently multiple good sources of information regarding this stuff. So I was just hoping for the books you are all getting this information from.
Zanan 10-22-07, 04:59 AM	-Of course not. The magics used in the Lady Penitent trilogy, thus far, imply and specifically say that the Epic Magics being used are Elven High Magic. We can always hope that this is an example of the 'unreliable narrator', though 3rd person omniscient narrators are hardly every unreliable. No ... essentially, the drow were not really casting the spells, but the dark elves bound in those lore gems were. At least that is how I would make reason of it, for the only character actually able to cast the spell might be Q'arlynd himself - even though I doubt that he is an epic caster in any case, more likely around level 15. That said, Lisa will not have used the rule words "epic magic" anyway and to Q'arlynd, it might not mattered, for he may perceive Epic Magic as Elven High Magic or simply High Magic / High Arcana. As in: denominates them as such, but not in the rule terms we use. Reneshat ... download Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves (as well as Fall of Myth Drannor) from the WotC download section. They and Lost Empires of Faerūn have the most extended stuff on the Crown Wars and details on Myth Drannor et al. After double-checking some stuff last night, I was kind of surprised that most info on these days as given in TGHotR was actually straight (as in: straight) copy & paste material of the aforementioned Cormanthyr.
Reneshat 10-22-07, 05:43 AM	Reneshat ... download Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves (as well as Fall of Myth Drannor) from the WotC download section. They and Lost Empires of Faerūn have the most extended stuff on the Crown Wars and details on Myth Drannor et al. After double-checking some stuff last night, I was kind of surprised that most info on these days as given in TGHotR was actually straight (as in: straight) copy & paste material of the aforementioned Cormanthyr. Thanks. They are downloaded, and I'm going to go through them this week.
Zanan 10-22-07, 06:20 AM	Thanks. They are downloaded, and I'm going to go through them this week. Just in case ... all what is there, in Lost Empires of Faerūn and the add-ons in TGHoF (i.e., sidebars and maps) is essentially all we have on that time. Evermeet - Island of Elves adds a bit of flair here and there, but not much knowledge. BTW, the Last Mythal series is very good when it comes to potraying "modern day" elves as well as some "ancient ones". If you are looking for more "inside elves" material, that is.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 10:45 AM	No ... essentially, the drow were not really casting the spells, but the dark elves bound in those lore gems were. At least that is how I would make reason of it, for the only character actually able to cast the spell might be Q'arlynd himself - even though I doubt that he is an epic caster in any case, more likely around level 15. -Hm, that's a good way at looking at it. I never thought about what happened like that.
Zanan 10-22-07, 12:20 PM	-Hm, that's a good way at looking at it. I never thought about what happened like that. I'd call that cheating on behalf of the plot. Things had to be done and this is a reasonable way of doing them. Which is not to say that you are hard pressed to believe it, of course.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 12:47 PM	I'd call that cheating on behalf of the plot. Things had to be done and this is a reasonable way of doing them. Which is not to say that you are hard pressed to believe it, of course. -Heh, that's an even better way of looking at it!
Puritan13 10-22-07, 02:13 PM	So this thread has given me a character idea. Ilythiiri Lich, whose body was destroyed just after the change into Drow. So he's got the pitch black skin and light blindness. While in his phylactery (in an underground lair) waiting for a new body, magic ceases to function (dead magic, permanent antimagic field, something). Milennia later, an earthquake cracks the earth and a human farmer discovers the ancient lair. The farmer removes and sells everything he can (including the phylactery). Yadda yadda yadda The lich comes back and has a bit of trouble reclaiming all his old possessions. Initially unaware of how much time has passed and that the nature of magic has changed, he has to re-learn even the most basic magical theories. So much time has passed, and since the preservation magics used to protect his spellbooks were not functioning while in dead magic, he's limited to the few spells he stored in his kiira (coincidentally, the minimum number of spells a wizard of his level would have in their spellbooks). Now I've got a basic background. But some of the crunchy aspects of this character could be a bit difficult. Ilythiiri =/= Drow as the mechanics represent them. The drow racial adjustments are essentially the result of eugenics, the spell resistance and spell-like abilities are the result of mutations from the underdark radiation. Light-blindness is a direct result of the transformation to drow (which this character underwent). How would you represent Ilythiiri mechanics? A quick and dirty way would be to just use the High Elf rules from the Phb and tack on light-blindness. But I'm very interested in the thoughts of those more educated in this matter than I.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 03:43 PM	So this thread has given me a character idea. -I approve. :) How would you represent Ilythiiri mechanics? A quick and dirty way would be to just use the High Elf rules from the Phb and tack on light-blindness. But I'm very interested in the thoughts of those more educated in this matter than I. -Well, technically, Dark Elves were simply Green Elves with dark skin, so just use Wood Elf/Wild Elf stats...However, I think that's plain ol' dumb, and plan to ignore that. -The best fit probably would be those of Sun Elves. Both were/are driven, haughty to a degree, proud, and sure of themselves. I think that they would be lawful. Dark Elven society has been surmised by MT and I to be lawful and militant. No light-blindness, since Dark Elves weren't offended by light. I'll think on this a little more.
Puritan13 10-22-07, 05:28 PM	No light-blindness, since Dark Elves weren't offended by light. I'll think on this a little more.He underwent the change from dark elf to drow. GHotR makes it sound like light-blindness is part-and-parcel with the change. I've been thinking more on his background. He fought in the third and fourth crown wars. In -10,000 he underwent the change to drow like all ilythiiri, but before he could join the others in the caverns, his physical body was destroyed and he ended up trapped in his phylactery for 11,350 years. I'm going back and forth on whether or not he was aware of the passage of time while trapped. If he was, then he's probably more than a little insane.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 05:44 PM	He underwent the change from dark elf to drow. GHotR makes it sound like light-blindness is part-and-parcel with the change. -Oh, oh. I was talking about Dark Elves before The Descent.
Iakhovas 10-22-07, 09:45 PM	-Well, technically, Dark Elves were simply Green Elves with dark skin, so just use Wood Elf/Wild Elf stats...However, I think that's plain ol' dumb, and plan to ignore that.I'm not clear what your objection to exactly LK. Do you also feel that dark skinned humans, the Tabaxi for instance, deserve different racial modifiers from other humans?
Lord Karsus 10-23-07, 12:02 AM	I'm not clear what your objection to exactly LK. Do you also feel that dark skinned humans, the Tabaxi for instance, deserve different racial modifiers from other humans? -Yes, they shoud have specific skill and feat emphasis', based on their own unique society. That might be something more in line for a generic NPC write-up, though. -Simply put, there is no precident that the Dark Elves were simply Wood Elves. I've gone through too much trouble of my own reconciling other myths concerning 'Dark Elves' to match that of the Faerūnian Dark Elves to simply accept that they were nothing but dark skinned Wood Elves. I dislike arbitrary alterations, additions, subtractions to lore for sake's sake.
Puritan13 10-23-07, 01:08 AM	-Yes, they shoud have specific skill and feat emphasis', based on their own unique society. That might be something more in line for a generic NPC write-up, though. -Simply put, there is no precident that the Dark Elves were simply Wood Elves. I've gone through too much trouble of my own reconciling other myths concerning 'Dark Elves' to match that of the Faerūnian Dark Elves to simply accept that they were nothing but dark skinned Wood Elves. I dislike arbitrary alterations, additions, subtractions to lore for sake's sake.I agree with you here, neither the fluff nor cruch of Wood elves tastes like dark elves. I like your suggestion of Sun elf mechanics for Ilythiiri.
Lord Karsus 10-23-07, 01:11 AM	I like your suggestion of Sun elf mechanics for Ilythiiri. -Realize, that is, in no way, a very good fit. But, it's the best fit of the already statted Elven subraces.
Black Kitten 10-23-07, 02:59 AM	The information in this thread has been wonderful for my inspiration. I already had some ideas, but this only added to it. I even found a reasonable good reason for a Dark Elvish-like city to be found roughly at Atkathla's region. I'm actually going to see if I am able to lure one of my players to voluntarily get changed into a dark elf (I'm gonna use Moon-Elven stats). I'm just not sure what hair-color would be appropriate, but I'd guess at brown/black.
Iakhovas 10-23-07, 09:03 AM	-I've gone through too much trouble of my own reconciling other myths concerning 'Dark Elves' to match that of the Faerūnian Dark Elves to simply accept that they were nothing but dark skinned Wood Elves.When you say that you have been reconciling other myths concerning 'Dark Elves', are you refering to real world myths and folklore? Remember its already established lore that Green Elves branch into Wild Elves and Wood Elves on Faerūn. Are not Wild Elves simply copper skinned Wood Elves?
Black Kitten 10-23-07, 09:08 AM	When you say that you have been reconciling other myths concerning 'Dark Elves', are you refering to real world myths and folklore? Remember its already established lore that Green Elves branch into Wild Elves and Wood Elves on Faerūn. Are not Wild Elves simply copper skinned Wood Elves? Wood Elves are a combination of sun, moon and green elves that came together during the Crown Wars. The Wild Elves are Green Elves who retreated bigtime into the wilderness. So I wouldn't say they are 'the same' or just 'branched green elves'.
Iakhovas 10-23-07, 09:09 AM	-Yes, they shoud have specific skill and feat emphasis', based on their own unique society. That might be something more in line for a generic NPC write-up, though.Excellent, we agree then. Skills and feats are fine, because we can use them to distinguish between the unique elf societies of Ilythiir and Miyeritar. But we don't need yet another sub-type of elf with racial ability modifiers.
Iakhovas 10-23-07, 09:14 AM	Wood Elves are a combination of sun, moon and green elves that came together during the Crown Wars.Which makes your head spin when you realize that Sun elves and Moon elves of Faerūn are the result of Gold Elves and a Silver Elf mating with the indigenous tribes of Green elves. Starting to see a picture here?
Zanan 10-23-07, 09:38 AM	Excellent, we agree then. Skills and feats are fine, because we can use them to distinguish between the unique elf societies of Ilythiir and Miyeritar. But we don't need yet another sub-type of elf with racial ability modifiers. But of course we do! I mean, why would we set the dark elves back now, after bringing in the star elves (into Faerūn) a year ago (Unapproachable East) or the Snow Elves (Frostburn)? Essentially, one problem arose from the fact that quite a bit of the Cormanthyr lore was copied straight into TGHotR, even though we had the FRCS / RoF inbetween, making a clear distinction between wild and wood elves - while leaving the ("AD&D"-) green elves behind. If people come by and say that the "ancient green elves" splitted into the Faerūnian subraces of the more feral wild elves and the less feral wood elves (both the original "treehuggers union", so to speak), we would have a reasonable explanation. The FR moon and sun elves (Core's grey's and gold's and what have you) came from another place and developed on their own accord (which is not as treehuggerish as the greens, so to speak). Fair enough. But to place the dark elves among the "greens" for no obvious reason (apart that they inhabitted the jungles of the south (you see, I'd rather see them more Maya-or Inka-ish than Aboriginal from the word Go!)) stretches the imagination a bit. You see, as opposed to all other greens they quickly became civilized and developed along the lines of the suns with regards to culture and magic, whereas the other "greens" ... well continued to "hugg the trees". And within the space of 2,000 years, the Ilythiiri green elves have become the dark elves? Long before they were dark in their hearts too? Well, if it shall be that way, so be it. A simple note tellling us the dark elves came from another place as well would have added an easier explanation to their heritage, would have caused not much more workload and surely not half as many raised eyebrows and shaking heads. BTW, treehuggers union, don't be offended here. It's the dark elves' thread, you know :evillaugh
Black Kitten 10-23-07, 09:43 AM	Well, if it shall be that way, so be it. A simple note tellling us the dark elves came from another place as well would have added an easier explanation to their heritage, would have caused not much more workload and surely not half as many raised eyebrows and shaking heads. There is a note that the Dark Elves came to Faerun in RoF. They came to Faerun around the same time as the Moon and Sun Elves (see the Elf-chapter of RoF). This is after the flying Elves, wood Elves and the Werewolve-elves (lythari). The Green Elf Ilythiiri were actually green elves that hoped to restore peace by helping the Dark Elves during that era.
Suin Bahhar 10-23-07, 09:46 AM	Dark Elf (ilythiiri) Racial adj. +2 int, -2 con Skill adj. +2 sport +2 search and +2 listen (free search check within 10 ft of secret doors) Favored class: wizard Feats: free proficiency in short sword, long spear, short bow and long bow Resistance to enchantment: +2 on will saves of magic abilities and spells Racial regional feats: swift and silent, twin sword style, otherworldy
Suin Bahhar 10-23-07, 09:53 AM	Dark Elf (miyeritari) Racial adj. +2 int, -2 con Skill adj. +2 sport +2 search and +2 listen (free search check within 10 ft of secret doors) Favored class: wizard Feats: free proficiency in short sword, long spear, short bow and long bow Resistance to enchantment: +2 on will saves of magic abilities and spells Racial regional feats: survivor, artist, otherworldy, courteous magocracy
Zanan 10-23-07, 10:06 AM	There is a note that the Dark Elves came to Faerun in RoF. They came to Faerun around the same time as the Moon and Sun Elves (see the Elf-chapter of RoF). This is after the flying Elves, wood Elves and the Werewolve-elves (lythari). The Green Elf Ilythiiri were actually green elves that hoped to restore peace by helping the Dark Elves during that era. Heck ... I read RoF oh-so rarely, most likely because it mixed up the dark elven history quite a bit. Then again, I am quite sure that the Ilythiiri have always been portrayed as dark elves from the off. It could well be that in their realm, i.e. Ilythiir, "green" elves dwellt as well.
Black Kitten 10-23-07, 10:07 AM	Heck ... I read RoF oh-so rarely, most likely because it mixed up the dark elven history quite a bit. Then again, I am quite sure that the Ilythiiri have always been portrayed as dark elves from the off. It could well be that in their realm, i.e. Ilythiir, "green" elves dwellt as well. It's what I read thusfar in reliable and semi-reliable canon sources. So... any ideas on hair color?
Puritan13 10-23-07, 10:29 AM	It's what I read thusfar in reliable and semi-reliable canon sources. So... any ideas on hair color?I should think that standard elven hair colors should suffice.
Suin Bahhar 10-23-07, 12:03 PM	Most dark elves were blackskinned. The dusk skinned Ilythiiri had mostly chestnut or black hair I guess. This is a bit of conjecture as Araushnee was described as having black skin as well as here children. Nothing on Araushnees hair color though. Eilistraee's silver hair can be an example of hair color of dark elves mixed with sun or moon elves. So lighter color hair certainly existed among dark elves. As elves can even have blue hair this leaves all colors open for your character. ^^
Lord Karsus 10-23-07, 12:54 PM	When you say that you have been reconciling other myths concerning 'Dark Elves', are you refering to real world myths and folklore? -For the most part, yes. MT along with me have done some work on this. Remember its already established lore that Green Elves branch into Wild Elves and Wood Elves on Faerūn. Are not Wild Elves simply copper skinned Wood Elves? -That they are, which is why I completely ignore the information presented in Races of Faerūn that differentiates Wood Elves and Wild Elves into two different subraces. Both groups are Green Elves (Wood Elves, as I've just simply called them, due to their love of nature) who have simply evolved culturally in a different way. Excellent, we agree then. Skills and feats are fine, because we can use them to distinguish between the unique elf societies of Ilythiir and Miyeritar. -Yes. That's all a subrace is- a substitution of feats, skills and abilities to differentiate one group from another. But we don't need yet another sub-type of elf with racial ability modifiers. -Sure we do: Dark Elves in general. Forget breaking them down into Ilythiiri, or Miyeritaari.
Black Kitten 10-23-07, 01:22 PM	-That they are, which is why I completely ignore the information presented in Races of Faerūn that differentiates Wood Elves and Wild Elves into two different subraces. Both groups are Green Elves (Wood Elves, as I've just simply called them, due to their love of nature) who have simply evolved culturally in a different way. Why would you ignore RoF?
Lord Karsus 10-23-07, 06:56 PM	Why would you ignore RoF? -The same reason lots of people ignore other things. It my educated opinion that there is no reason that Wild Elves and Wood Elves should be two seperate subraces- they never were in the past. It isn't warranted. Both groups were created as 'Green Elves', and the main difference between the two is mostly cultural. Should primitive Humans be considered a different race than more advanced Humans, provided that both came from the same evolutionary path?
Black Kitten 10-24-07, 02:02 AM	-The same reason lots of people ignore other things. It my educated opinion that there is no reason that Wild Elves and Wood Elves should be two seperate subraces- they never were in the past. It isn't warranted. Both groups were created as 'Green Elves', and the main difference between the two is mostly cultural. Should primitive Humans be considered a different race than more advanced Humans, provided that both came from the same evolutionary path? Speciation, especially on the subrace level is a complicated thing. Would you make the distinction between the summer and winter oak? I wouldn't, many people do. Culture can lead to speciation, ESPECIALLY on the subspecies level. If we look at Bonobos and Chimpasees, their differences are completely cultural. Yet they are two clearly distinct species of ape. Even humans are still closely related to the Pan family (chimps) and had a common ancestor. Are we a different species or subspecies from the proto-sapiens that once left Africa? Actually, we are. Looking at mitochondrial DNA, you could even argue some 'purebred' European groups could be considered a different subspecies from the Africans. We don't, the differences are too small. At the same time, there is no absolute physical difference between Africans and Europeans in terms of D&D stats. Wild Elves and Wood Elves are radically different in their physical make-up, if we rely on the stats provided by the books. In addition, if we account for the Wood Elves' history, they are truly made-up from a different set of common ancestors than the Wild Elves. That, to me, leads to a conclusion they are different subspecies. If we would transport proto-sapiens to our time, they would actually be a different subspecies as we are **** Sapiens Sapiens and they would be **** Sapiens. In the end it will come down to an opinion, not an educated opinion. The word educated in this sense merely is an attempt to put force behind your opinion, rather than actually meaning something. Speciation actually says us: "What is now one, can become two" and time progresses. So probably that's exactly what happened with the Wild and Wood Elves. They were once Green Elves and now they are 2 seperate subspecies of which the Wood Elves take the 'origins'.
Reneshat 10-24-07, 02:04 AM	Dark Elf (miyeritari) Racial adj. +2 int, -2 con Skill adj. +2 sport +2 search and +2 listen (free search check within 10 ft of secret doors) Favored class: wizard Feats: free proficiency in short sword, long spear, short bow and long bow Resistance to enchantment: +2 on will saves of magic abilities and spells Racial regional feats: survivor, artist, otherworldy, courteous magocracy I'm assuming that was supposed to be spot? I just can't think of a reason that Dark Elves would be particularly good at football....
The_Shaman 10-24-07, 04:38 AM	They picked it up from the green elves, perhaps? :P Just out of curiosity, LK, which ability modifiers would you use for wild/wood elves in your game?
Suin Bahhar 10-24-07, 10:14 AM	Bwehahahahahaahahaaahaa! It makes sense for militaristic elves, doesn't it? Do elves even have sports?
Puritan13 10-24-07, 10:17 AM	Bwehahahahahaahahaaahaa! It makes sense for militaristic elves, doesn't it? Do elves even have sports? Sure they do. "Kick the orcs head" for one.
Lord Karsus 10-24-07, 10:29 AM	-Note: I'm moving later tonight and tomorrow, so if I don't get back to anyone in a timely manner, it's not because I'm trying to dodge the issue, but because I don't have internet connection yet! Speciation, especially on the subrace level is a complicated thing. Would you make the distinction between the summer and winter oak? I wouldn't, many people do. -I don't know the first thing about botany, so I can't tell you. I do, however, know a thing or two about Faerūn's Elves. Are we a different species or subspecies from the proto-sapiens that once left Africa? Actually, we are. Looking at mitochondrial DNA, you could even argue some 'purebred' European groups could be considered a different subspecies from the Africans. We don't, the differences are too small. -Yes, I know that. Notice, though, I didn't say proto-sapiens. I said 'primitive Humans'. I didn't say Homosapiens, and Homoerectus. I said Homosapien and Homosapien. Culturally, as compared to, say, a nomad in the days before the Mesopotamian cultures arose, we are miles apart. Genetically, we are mostly the same, barring mutations and such. At the same time, there is no absolute physical difference between Africans and Europeans in terms of D&D stats. -Sure there are, depending on how 'detailed' one wants to get when deconstructing all of that. It could be said that Africans have a higher tolerance for heat than certain Europeans, or that certain Europeans have a higher tolerance to cold than certain Africans, due to genetics. Could that translate to a D&D stat? Sure, why not? Do we actually do that, though? No. Wild Elves and Wood Elves are radically different in their physical make-up, if we rely on the stats provided by the books. -Let's do a side-by-side analysis: D&D Stats Wood Elves: +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT, -2 CHA 'Wild Elves': +2 DEX, -2 INT Hair Color Wood Elves: Brown, black, with the occasional blonde or copper 'Wild Elves': Brown, black, lightens with age Skin Tone Wood Elves: Copper, tinged with green (which is brownish) 'Wild Elves': Brown Average Weight Wood Elves: 100 (M), 80 (F) (Are "more heavily built") 'Wild Elves': 100 (M), 80 (F) (Are "more heavily built") Average Height Wood Elves: 4' 10" (M), 4' 5" (F) ("Share the height of their Moon and Sun Elf kin") 'Wild Elves': 4' 10" (M), 4' 5" (F) ("As tall as other Faerūnian Elves") -Forgive me if I sound snarky, but I'm failing to see the radically different physical make-ups. In addition, if we account for the Wood Elves' history, they are truly made-up from a different set of common ancestors than the Wild Elves. -No they don't. Wood Elves simply have had more time to intermingle and coexist with other Elven subraces, as opposed to 'Wild Elves', that hid from the world after the Crown Wars. Do you think that the 'Wild Elves' avoided any kind of "intersubracial" relationships in the 10,000+ years they lived among other subraces? That, to me, leads to a conclusion they are different subspecies. -You do also realize that, until Races of Faerūn came out, they were the same, right? Again, with the arbitrary and unneccesary changes in 3e. In the end it will come down to an opinion, not an educated opinion. The word educated in this sense merely is an attempt to put force behind your opinion, rather than actually meaning something. -Did I not use facts to create, support and strengthen my opinion? Speciation actually says us: "What is now one, can become two" and time progresses. -Elves don't evolve, which also poses a problem. So probably that's exactly what happened with the Wild and Wood Elves. They were once Green Elves and now they are 2 seperate subspecies of which the Wood Elves take the 'origins'. -'Green Elves' is simply just another name for the subrace, just like Sun Elves are sometimes known as Sunrise Elves, or Golds, Moon Elves are sometimes known as Moonrise Elves, or Silvers, and, say, Star Elves are sometimes known as Mithral Elves. -Generically, the two groups are nearly the same. The main difference between the two cultural, which should have no impact on anything. Some Wood Elves are simply more primitive than others, just like some Humans were more primitive than others, and still are. An elite Frenchman is just as Human as a savage living in the Trobriand Islands. Just out of curiosity, LK, which ability modifiers would you use for wild/wood elves in your game? -I'd use the racial stats for Wood Elves. For the more primitive ones (Wild Elves), I'd just give them a few different weapon/skill proficiencies. That's pretty much what 'Wild Elves' already are.
Lord Karsus 10-24-07, 10:31 AM	Do elves even have sports? -Archery immediatley comes to mind.
Suin Bahhar 10-24-07, 10:58 AM	Off course. Great. I can think of several others like climb the tree-contests, swordduelling, (Dire)Wolfraces, horsebackriding.
Lord Karsus 10-24-07, 11:01 AM	Off course. Great. I can think of several others like climb the tree-contests, swordduelling, (Dire)Wolfraces, horsebackriding. -Of those, I'd choose maybe the first, second and forth. -Even though things like that aren't normally thought of when someone says "sports" (Baseball, Backetball, Hockey, Football), they are sports none the less.
Suin Bahhar 10-24-07, 11:14 AM	-Note: I'm moving later tonight and tomorrow, so if I don't get back to anyone in a timely manner, it's not because I'm trying to dodge the issue, but because I don't have internet connection yet! Good luck and don't break your back. -Sure there are, depending on how 'detailed' one wants to get when deconstructing all of that. It could be said that Africans have a higher tolerance for heat than certain Europeans, or that certain Europeans have a higher tolerance to cold than certain Africans, due to genetics. Could that translate to a D&D stat? Sure, why not? Do we actually do that, though? No. Agreed. Elves have had a diverging subrace growth problem. No need to differentiate between barbaric or more civilized sylvan elves. -Let's do a side-by-side analysis: D&D Stats Wood Elves: +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT, -2 CHA 'Wild Elves': +2 DEX, -2 INT Hair Color Wood Elves: Brown, black, with the occasional blonde or copper 'Wild Elves': Brown, black, lightens with age Skin Tone Wood Elves: Copper, tinged with green (which is brownish) 'Wild Elves': Brown Average Weight Wood Elves: 100 (M), 80 (F) (Are "more heavily built") 'Wild Elves': 100 (M), 80 (F) (Are "more heavily built") Average Height Wood Elves: 4' 10" (M), 4' 5" (F) ("Share the height of their Moon and Sun Elf kin") 'Wild Elves': 4' 10" (M), 4' 5" (F) ("As tall as other Faerūnian Elves") -Forgive me if I sound snarky, but I'm failing to see the radically different physical make-ups.Their scores differ a bit too much actually. But superficially they look alike indeed. AD&D used the +1 str +1 dex -1 Int -1 con variant, so I use a +2 str +2 dex -2 con -2 int for all greens. -No they don't. Wood Elves simply have had more time to intermingle and coexist with other Elven subraces, as opposed to 'Wild Elves', that hid from the world after the Crown Wars. Do you think that the 'Wild Elves' avoided any kind of "intersubracial" relationships in the 10,000+ years they lived among other subraces?Good point. BTW I like your take on wood elves in EoF. -Elves don't evolve, which also poses a problem. I disagree. The drow seemed to have evolved to their smaller more spellresistant forms adapted to the Underdark from the tall blackskinned Ilythiiri they came from. I like a little science in my fantasy, and genetics seem important in a world filled with halfbreeds.
Black Kitten 10-24-07, 11:51 AM	Even though you try to dispute what I said there, I don't see your point. You point out that you consider Copper and Wild Elves the same because you want to disregard a difference in stats given to us by the books. The books note a certain hightened intermingling culture in Copper Elves, whose base-group was formed by a mix of Green, Moon and Sun Elves. The Wild Elves are noted to be 'purebred' offspring of the Green Elves and are even called thus. The first copper elves did not appear at once; their race coalesced slowly over the course of several centuries after the last Crown War, blending several of the other elven kindreds. You propose that we consider all Americans English, because some English people once intermingled with the other people living there at a point in time. Now the English and other settlers of the Americas didn't diverse enough statistically to warrant a D&D stat-difference or a different race notation. The Green Elves and Wood Elves do. To me stats do not show someone's culture, but someone's birth-status. By default, dwarves have an inclination to be less sociable and have a better constitution than humans. Sun Elves are slightly more intelligent and less agile than Moon Elves. Wood Elves stronger, more frail and less charismatic than Wild Elves by nature, not by culture. Even if a Wood Elf is born and raised in a Wild Elf society, he will have those characteristics. He might compensate for some of these characteristics, but he will always keep the inclination to be like that.
MarkusTay63 10-24-07, 01:46 PM	I'm not English - I'm American. And although I'm a WASP, I do not have a single drop of English blood coursing through my veins. :P When I think of Dark Elves, culturally, I picture Amerinds, but progress them further down the path of 'proud warrior' into something somewhat darker, akin to the Klingons in culture. Assume many 'rights of passage' for young men and women, often bloody and violent. Until the invasion of Miyeritar, they were a fractious, loose confederacy of tribes that warred with each other as much as their neighbors. They were a proud yet noble people until the Dark Disaster - that single incident galvanized them into one mind. Their leadership, through their own hubris, had often enough taken to cosorting with dark powers, so it was a small leap to call upon them to help them seek revenge. Wendonai shows up on the scene, and the total corruption of the Illythiri elite begins. At first the people were able to ignore the atrocities that were comitted in their name, so subtle were the politicians in manipulating their people's feelings. Whipped-up into a blood-frenzy by their leaders and the deaths of their northern cousins, they did not step back and realize what was happening until it was too late. In the end it became too late to turn back, and most embraced the dark side of their culture whole-heartedly. Some few fled the massacres, others were killed as traitors, and by the time their mighty army reached that of the Vyshaan they were completely corrupt. Their's is a tale of Elves, of contemptousness and conceit, of pride and arrogance, and in the end, like so many other Elven races, they were laid low by their own greed for more power, and worse, their desire to use it against others. They are not so different from other Elves, after all, only the depth of their fall. But thats just MY take, you can do whatever YOU like. I prefer a tragic tale, myself, though. ;)
Alediran 10-24-07, 02:35 PM	I disagree. The drow seemed to have evolved to their smaller more spellresistant forms adapted to the Underdark from the tall blackskinned Ilythiiri they came from. I like a little science in my fantasy, and genetics seem important in a world filled with halfbreeds. The drow have been cursed by the rest of the elven race and the seldarine into that shape, they didn't evolve. Moon, Sun and Green Elves of the present day are identical to the Moon, Sun and Green Elves that fought in the Crown Wars and from those who came from Faerie. They have never changed from what they where when they arrived tens of thousand years before. Just two thousand years ago in our world, humanity was very different (in mind, genes and societies) from what it is now.
Puritan13 10-24-07, 03:58 PM	The drow have been cursed by the rest of the elven race and the seldarine into that shape, they didn't evolve.I don't remember reading anything about the curse that made them shorter, granted them spell resistance and their myriad spell-like abilities. The only things I can recall reading about the curse are that it changed their skin to it's onyx coloration, and made light painful to their eyes. They fled underground. Few thousand years later, the underdark radiation has mutated them to grant them that spell resistance and those spell like abilities. During that time, they also selectively bred for increased agility, intelligence, and beauty. Thats eugenics right there. Their starting racial ability adjustments (whatever they were) were replaced with the modern drows' racial ability adjustments. The white hair and red eyes? Those comes from living underground for millenia. Many deep cave-dwelling species only exist in an albino form. I theorize that the drow would be entirely albino were it not for the curse. As for the arguement that elves don't evolve. All evolution is is the continuation of favorable mutations and the loss of unnecessary or harmful mutations through generations. Last time I researched evolution (long time ago), the current theory was that theory isn't a slow, steady process, but rather goes in fits and starts. I think the changes that the cursed Ilythiiri underwent counts as evolution.
Alediran 10-24-07, 04:30 PM	I don't remember reading anything about the curse that made them shorter, granted them spell resistance and their myriad spell-like abilities. The only things I can recall reading about the curse are that it changed their skin to it's onyx coloration, and made light painful to their eyes. They fled underground. Few thousand years later, the underdark radiation has mutated them to grant them that spell resistance and those spell like abilities. During that time, they also selectively bred for increased agility, intelligence, and beauty. Thats eugenics right there. Their starting racial ability adjustments (whatever they were) were replaced with the modern drows' racial ability adjustments. The white hair and red eyes? Those comes from living underground for millenia. Many deep cave-dwelling species only exist in an albino form. I theorize that the drow would be entirely albino were it not for the curse. As for the arguement that elves don't evolve. All evolution is is the continuation of favorable mutations and the loss of unnecessary or harmful mutations through generations. Last time I researched evolution (long time ago), the current theory was that theory isn't a slow, steady process, but rather goes in fits and starts. I think the changes that the cursed Ilythiiri underwent counts as evolution. The explanation for the Drow's ability modifiers are completely ignorant to the fact that elves don't change. The spell-like abilities are grated by the Faezzres, that is why there are many drow on the surface that don't have SR and spell-like abilities, every drow who chooses to live in the surface will loose it's spell-like abilities and resistance to magic. Except for those who went AFTER Liriel inscribed her rune in the Ygdrassil.
Puritan13 10-24-07, 04:53 PM	The explanation for the Drow's ability modifiers are completely ignorant to the fact that elves don't change. The spell-like abilities are grated by the Faezzres, that is why there are many drow on the surface that don't have SR and spell-like abilities, every drow who chooses to live in the surface will loose it's spell-like abilities and resistance to magic. Except for those who went AFTER Liriel inscribed her rune in the Ygdrassil.Hmm, wood elves came about by the interbreeding of various elven subraces. See? Elven change right there. Look up Drizzt in the FRCS. He came to the surface before Liriel, yet his statblock lists him with the SR and spell-like abilities.
Suin Bahhar 10-24-07, 05:19 PM	Where does the theory that elves dont evolve come from anyway?
Puritan13 10-24-07, 05:35 PM	Where does the theory that elves dont evolve come from anyway?I think it's an extension of the creationism vs. evolution debate. Too many people think the two are mutually exclusive. They are not. Elves were created "whole cloth" from drops of Corellons blood, or so the legend goes. The same people that think creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive also think that because elves were created thus, they cannot evolve. Yet the lore we have clearly shows them changing not only culturally, but physically as well.
Suin Bahhar 10-24-07, 06:09 PM	Thanks for the insight. I agree.
Black Kitten 10-24-07, 06:20 PM	I think it's an extension of the creationism vs. evolution debate. Too many people think the two are mutually exclusive. They are not. I would strongly suggest letting that point down since there's a biologist in town before the anger begins to grow we are talking in this topic about the drow!
Puritan13 10-24-07, 06:29 PM	I would strongly suggest letting that point down since there's a biologist in town before the anger begins to grow we are talking in this topic about the drow!It's pertinent to the discussion don't really care let the man get angry my post was on topic
GothicDan 10-24-07, 10:14 PM	I am, first of all, militantly atheist and believe not only in evolution, but evolutionary psychology wholly. That being said, in Faerun only, the idea of evolution of the Tel'Quessir is abhorrent to me. The Avariels were altered personally by Aerdrie, the Sea Elves by Deep, and the Dark Elves by a combo. of being partially 'born' that way, part of the Curse, part magical mutation (NOT spontaneous evolution), and probably more factors we're not aware of. For a scientific theory to hold, it must in some way explain a process over an extended period of time, logically and consistently. Just because evolution is about as "proven" a scientific theory as we have in the real world, doesn't mean we should begin to generalize it to Faerun. Just like I would never, EVER, assume all physics of Abeir-Toril are the same as those of Earth, one should never assume 'genetics' works the same way. And we know for a CANON FACT, that interbreeding between Elves always produces Elves who are the same as ONE of their parents, genotype wise. Never, ever a mix.
MarkusTay63 10-24-07, 11:21 PM	Created species do not evolve, only those that have come about through natural selection evolve, like mankind. Hence man's adaptability, and precociousness, he has over other intelligent species. Elves do NOT evolve, but the moment the descent curse was cast the Deep Elves stop being Elves and became DROW. They became something new and unique, and took to a new environment. At that point nature took over and they became adaptive creatures just like those that normally evolve in ecosystems. In other words, once they were no longer Elves, they no longer followed the same rules. :devil: The Drow of today are different then those that first went 'down under', and they have evolved and adapted, mostly do to the Faezress radiation which also appears to have been created by the same use of High magic (the 'balance theory' involving high magic rituals). That's MY story, and I'm sticking to it. :P
Puritan13 10-25-07, 04:37 AM	GothicDan and MarkusTay If you have not done so, please read page 45 of Races of Faerun, the history section. The first paragraph is really all you need to read. Now explain how that is not evolution.
Alediran 10-25-07, 10:32 AM	GothicDan and MarkusTay If you have not done so, please read page 45 of Races of Faerun, the history section. The first paragraph is really all you need to read. Now explain how that is not evolution. That line of the book was a complete mistake by the author of that book, who hadn't done the needed homework (lots of FR designers are lazy bums who don't bother to read previous lore). Green elves during 2ed had the personality of both Wood and Wild Elves. There where Green Elves who were more "civilized", like one of Queen Amlauril's friends, during her time as Grand Mage of the Towers of Moon & Sun and that where the "Wood" Elves of 2ed.
Lord Karsus 10-25-07, 01:27 PM	-Gotta be quick- on a school computer!! I don't remember reading anything about the curse that made them shorter, granted them spell resistance and their myriad spell-like abilities. The only things I can recall reading about the curse are that it changed their skin to it's onyx coloration, and made light painful to their eyes. -Book II of the Lady Penitent trilogy, Storm of the Dead, actually further elaborates on this. -Apparently, Faerzress' (Faer= Magic; Can't remember at the moment what Z'ress meant)were created in the magical spell that transformed the Dark Elves to Drow to keep them 'contained in the Underdark'. Green elves during 2ed had the personality of both Wood and Wild Elves. -Exactly, which is why I ignore the arbitrary change made in Races of Faerūn. That being said, in Faerun only, the idea of evolution of the Tel'Quessir is abhorrent to me. The Avariels were altered personally by Aerdrie, the Sea Elves by Deep, and the Dark Elves by a combo. of being partially 'born' that way, part of the Curse, part magical mutation (NOT spontaneous evolution), and probably more factors we're not aware of. -I knew when Elven evolution was brought up, you'd have something to say. Hmm, wood elves came about by the interbreeding of various elven subraces. See? Elven change right there -Moon Elves came to be after interbreeding with Sun Elves and Wood Elves. Remember, Sharlario Moonflower was the only Moon Elf with the bunch from Tintageer. Within a couple of centuries, there were enough Moon Elves to found entire communities (Sharlarion, for example). Why is it that when breeding with Sun and Wood Elves, Moon Elves were able to maintain their racial characteristics, and not 'devolve' into a secondary subrace? Where does the theory that elves dont evolve come from anyway -It's a fact, not a theory. Elves were created by the Seldarine X amount of years ago, and in the time frame, they have never physically changed. Avariel living in forests never evolved to become acclamated to their surroundings. Avariel living in the north have yet to become acclamated to colder climates. Elves do not evolve- this also coming from somone who does not put too much creedence into the 'Intelligent Design' (Humans were created by G-d) idea. -Thanks for the kind words concerning Elves of Faerūn, by the way.
Puritan13 10-25-07, 01:39 PM	A mistake? In a book published by WotC? *gasp* Unpossible! Seriously though, the change to wood elves was less of a mistake and probably more along the lines of a retcon IMO. But none of that is about Ilythiiri, which is the topic of this thread. I was wondering one thing: Where does it state that drow are no longer elves? Looks like an elf. Talks like an elf with a wierd accent. Tastes like an elf. Quite a large degree of racial abilities in common with elves... Must be an elf.
MarkusTay63 10-25-07, 03:01 PM	GothicDan and MarkusTay If you have not done so, please read page 45 of Races of Faerun, the history section. The first paragraph is really all you need to read. Now explain how that is not evolution.The book is RIDDLED with errors - read the part about where the Chultans come from - it's completely WRONG. Do yourself a favor, and just throw the whole book in a garbage can. :rolleyes:
Suin Bahhar 10-25-07, 05:54 PM	I cannot agree with that "fact" about elven evolution. Elven generations don't follow up with the same speed of those of other races, so their natural evolution might be retarded somewhat. But to say they are absolutely stable beings without natural mutations makes them too "perfect" for my taste. Elves have many forms by blessings of their gods, but elves can have mutated children in my worlds too. I allow both divine shaping and evolutionairy changes to influence godcreated creatures like dwarves, elves and by extension drow. Sure the knowledge of DNA is spotty at best in the realms, but in mine biomancers exist to tamper with the blueprints of life of all beings elves included.
Suin Bahhar 10-25-07, 06:03 PM	I was wondering one thing: Where does it state that drow are no longer elves? Looks like an elf. Talks like an elf with a wierd accent. Tastes like an elf. Quite a large degree of racial abilities in common with elves... Must be an elf. Maybe in 4ed drow will be elf-no-more. We'll see... In my MM drow are still represented as Elf(humanoid, drow)
GothicDan 10-25-07, 10:24 PM	As soon as someone is able to prove through the scientific theory that evolution has taken place among the Elves of Faerun, then go for it. Until then, there's no actual evidence beyond our personal, real life judgments. And, as I said, I LOVE evolution, and I am a PHYSICIST, but neither belong in a FANTASY WORLD unless accepting all aspects of them are APPLICABLE.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-25-07, 11:18 PM	If Elves do evolve, it would be slower than the rate at which humans evolve which in turn is slower than the rate which all species of bacteria evolve and so forth. Of course, I would think that they should evolve, but as far as a fantasy race goes, they are that fantasy. So until someone publishes something on the subject, which I don't see being mentioned in any 4e races of faerun book. I for one dislike the idea that evolution and creation have to be separate. If there is a deity that created a race, why can't the race evolve? However, another question: Would sea elves be different enough to be considered another species entirely? I would think so, seeing that they are so physiologically different. What do ya'll think? the "subraces" of elves, are any different enough to be something other than an elf? But then again, Dan has a good point about evolution and physics in a fantasy world.
MarkusTay63 10-26-07, 10:06 AM	If you read my 'Elven Physiology' entries in the Elves of Faerūn (Elven Netbook), you will see I covered this somewhat. Elves DO evolve, but NOT in the same sense as most other species. Elves evolve as a matter of WILL, not natural selection. When an Elf wants to become a Sea Elf, all he or she has to do is walk into the ocean and 'will it'. If I'm not mistaken, I think the Lythari did the same when they became what they are originally (although I could be getting them mixed up with the Elfquest version, which is where they were stolen from). I'm sure, somewhere back in time the Avariels did something similar. Basically, the souls of Elves are connected to the Seldarine on a much deeper level then with most other intelligent beings and their gods. When an Elf has a longing in her heart, her soul cries out to the powers that be, and usually the request is granted in some way. If you don't believe me, read the myth entitled Jarsali and the Treant in the CBoE. It appears that if the will is strong enough, an Elf can become ANYTHING, even a plant. ;) Add in their natural resistances to heat and cold, and you can see that Elves adapt to things INDIVIDUALLY, not as a species. Ergo, normal evolution becomes unneccessary.
Suin Bahhar 10-26-07, 10:07 AM	Evolution baby! I like Pearl Jams song that much :D Markus, that ability in the hands of players is too broken. ^^ Evolution at will, Now! Elves changing shape to avoid getting hit. lol. Agreed elves are a fantasy race, so some leeway has to be upheld to make stories fantastic. Ilythiiri and Miyeritari weren't the only dark elf tribes. They were the most northern. MT mentioned dark elves in zakhara and several others. These were Fey or (Anti)Seldarine worshippers?
MarkusTay63 10-26-07, 10:36 AM	The only other group officially mentioned in the GHotR are the Sethomiir, who created Narathmault (present day Dun-Tharos). However, it also says they were a splinter group of the Illythiir. The strange part is that they were called a clan, so I suppose that makes the term 'Illythiir' refer to a certain tribe that was composed of several clans ('septs' in in E:IoE). If the term Illythiir was meant to mean ALL dark elves, then, as I think it might have in older sources, then I would hazard to guess that the Miyeritar were a clan of Illythiir as well. It WOULD explain their VERY violent reaction to that people's destruction. The 'ancients' are Dark Elves mentioned in one of the Maztican modules, and they had Spelljamming technology. They are NOT the same group that came MUCH later when the Dwarves and them collapsed a cavern during a scuffle, trapping both groups on the wrong side and causing them to migrate west to Maztica. The Maviddi are described as a culture comprised of Half-Elves, that pre-dated the kingdom of Guge on the Katakoro plateau. Nearly nothing is known about them, but the few ruins that remain (Tsaparang Fortress) indicate that they lived at least partially underground. Since normal Elves find the idea of living away from sunlight abhorent, my theory is that the Maviddi were a clan of Dark Elves living in the east when the descent curse occurred, and they took to breeding with the local humans to avoid having to go completely subterranean. Keep your eyes peeled for future CK articles... ;) The Akota are a 'strange people' living at the very western tip of Zakhara, and nearly nothing is known about them (one of those areas left up to the DM, from back in the 2e days). However, Dark Elves worshipping Lotha also are said to live to the west. Although it is never clearly stated (on purpose) what the Akota are, most Zakharan fan-groups have assumed a nation of Dark Elves in that region because of the couple of subtle hints in text. Lotha is described as a 'spider-headed' goddess, so obviously this is a southern name for Lolth (Lloth). Elves outside of Faerūn proper (the Heartlands) DO NOT worship the Seldarine, and that is why I have come to the conclusion that they were all part of some original group that pre-dated the fall of Tintageer. I've been saying this for YEARS, and now the GHotR backs me up on this. :D Most worship human gods now, but who they worshipped originally is anyone's guess. The GHotR states that the GREEN Elves (before they split into two sub-groups) worshipped Fäerie Gods, because the Seldarine were UNKNOWN(!) in -27,000 DR. I'm fairly certain the Dark Elves did much the same; although they might have been following The Queen of Air and Darkness for all we know (though I don't see that much corruption so early on).
GothicDan 10-26-07, 10:44 AM	I honestly severely dislike all references to Elves outside of Faerun, because they're so inconsistent. The Seldarine were never meant to be Faerun-specific... they were made for Greyhawk, and are super multi-planar...
Zanan 10-26-07, 11:08 AM	I'm not English - I'm American. And although I'm a WASP, I do not have a single drop of English blood coursing through my veins. :P Going by the timescale involved, wilds/woods/greens et al ... and projecting this into the real world and the "American English", it would be quite appropriate to say that you are of Germanic origin. Unless your forefathers (and mothers) hailed from Ireland, Italy, France or Spain. :P Suin Bahhar Ilythiiri and Miyeritari weren't the only dark elf tribes. They were the most northern. MT mentioned dark elves in zakhara and several others. These were Fey or (Anti)Seldarine worshippers? Well the Miyeritari and Ilythiiri are the actual Faerūnian dark elves (that we know of in detail) and essentially those who make up the modern day drow. To me, much of what lies beyond the borders of Faerūn (you named it) is as Realmsian as Greyhawk or the like ... with no disrespect whatsoever to FR gamers there.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-26-07, 11:29 AM	Going by the timescale involved, wilds/woods/greens et al ... and projecting this into the real world and the "American English", it would be quite appropriate to say that you are of Germanic origin. Unless your forefathers (and mothers) hailed from Ireland, Italy, France or Spain. :P I know this comment of mine is off topic, but about 19% of americans report german ancestry, or so I've heard. My family, for example has traced ancestors back to Prussia in the 1740s. (haven't found many people with my last name in the US either)
Alediran 10-26-07, 11:37 AM	In Argentina we are mostly descendants from Spain and Italy. I have blood from both sides, I love pasta and I love shellfish :rofl:
GothicDan 10-27-07, 09:50 AM	Mmm. Totally going to see if I can claim German citizenship. I'm sure I can speed-learn German...
Suin Bahhar 10-27-07, 06:53 PM	I'm Dutch. I got so many differing races in my blood that if I could I would simply choose what I like from all their best cultural customs and claim the be world citisan. My father wasn't a purebreed and has native southamerican, african and european blood. Most dutch like my mother are mixed blood of Anglo-Saxon and Caucasian mixed with some Southern types like the Spanish. I AM a racial evolution in the flesh (or so I like to say).
Suin Bahhar 10-27-07, 07:48 PM	Oh, and on topic. Eladrin are messengers of the Seldarine. Where there any dark elven eladrin on the Outer Planes? Did eladrin roam Fearie or Tintageer? Did early Ilythiiri not come into conflict or corrupt eladrin that came preaching Corellons or other Seldarine words?
GothicDan 10-27-07, 08:46 PM	Eladrin are not messengers of the Seldarine. Aasimon are - which is why you have Corellon's two most powerful Celestial servants being two Solars, for instance, and why Malkizid was a Solar.
Zanan 10-28-07, 04:35 AM	I know this comment of mine is off topic, but about 19% of americans report german ancestry, or so I've heard. My family, for example has traced ancestors back to Prussia in the 1740s. (haven't found many people with my last name in the US either) Just to make sure here (also with Gothic Dan), I wrote Germanic, not German. There's is a slight difference, you know. At least when it comes to languages and all.
GothicDan 10-28-07, 12:55 PM	I totally understood, Zanan. And then you can further divide it into Western, Northern, and Easter GermanIC, correct? ;) And so on and so forth. Or Teutonic, or what have you... There's apparently a little hamlet/town in Germany with my last name... And my grandfather was 100% German immigrant. I am going to start researching options for claiming German citizenship. I know some European countries let you do such things.
Suin Bahhar 10-28-07, 01:21 PM	Eladrin are not messengers of the Seldarine. Aasimon are - which is why you have Corellon's two most powerful Celestial servants being two Solars, for instance, and why Malkizid was a Solar.Ah, so the Ilythiiri people had used darkelf halffiends or feyri as messengers for their gods and demons? In times before their demonworship they had dark elf aasimar as divine vessels of Araushnee?
Dimensional_Drifter 10-28-07, 02:07 PM	Just to make sure here (also with Gothic Dan), I wrote Germanic, not German. There's is a slight difference, you know. At least when it comes to languages and all. Sorry about that, I understood what you meant. I didn't put much though into my post, I simply made a comment that didn't really relate to the one I quoted. But yes, I do understand what you meant about language and such.
GothicDan 10-28-07, 02:08 PM	I would assume so. But there's no printed canon on the matter.
Alediran 10-29-07, 04:40 PM	It's too bad I'm too removed from my European ancestors to claim citizenship, because after yesterday's presidential elections my country will go to the bottom of the ocean in less time that it takes to say I'm screwed.
Zanan 10-29-07, 08:09 PM	I totally understood, Zanan. And then you can further divide it into Western, Northern, and Easter GermanIC, correct? ;) And so on and so forth. Or Teutonic, or what have you... Nope, Teutonic would not be an option. But you are correct with the rest. Essentially, almost all Americans and Britons speak English which belongs to the Western Germanic dialect of "West Saxon", while the Germans all speak another Western Germanic dialect (or rather descendents of various). Only the Northern Britons have kept a different (though nearly not discernible) dialect going through the ages, that of the Angles (you know, Anglo-Saxons and all). But we won't want to stray too far off topic here, will we?
GothicDan 10-29-07, 10:59 PM	I'm actually curious as to the name "Teutonic" - I've seen it used in so many different ways, and frankly don't have the personal experience in figuring out which is "right." If only I had time to study every subject in depth. ;) Anyway... As the Lady Drow says... No more off topicness here!
Suin Bahhar 10-30-07, 09:53 AM	Hmm, Malkizid was corrupted by sunelves or Araushnee?
Stigger 10-30-07, 10:07 AM	Those evil sun elves did it... which should be obvious to those who know the true depths of evil that are the gold elves. :incog:
Alediran 10-30-07, 10:09 AM	Stigger, don't lie. It was Araushnee who corrupted Malkizid. For Corellon to cast out somebody it must have been a Huge corruption.
Stigger 10-30-07, 10:11 AM	No, really, it was the gold elves, using Evil-laced cookies, a time machine, Evil-infused feather conditioner, and a couple of random artifacts just for good measure... ;) :D
Suin Bahhar 10-30-07, 10:32 AM	If Malkizid was corrupted at the same time of Araushnees fall she perhaps used him for her early corruption of the dark elves. Wendonai is said to have been the earliest messenger of fiendish knowledge to dark elves. Did Wendonai or Malkizid stand prototype as for Lolths earliest messengers? Were the Yochlol, Lolths handmaidens, corrupted from devout dark elf petitioners themselves during her time as a tanari, or did she stumble upon them in the Abyss? Did Ghaunadar influence Lolth when she granted the Yochlols such malleable forms upon arrising as a new head of the anti-seldarine?
Stigger 10-30-07, 10:41 AM	I'd say neither stood as the prototype really, as she eventually had a fairly big falling out with both, so I doubt would find either one of them as suitable for her needs. My own thoughts on the Yochlol were that they were created by her hand, for her own needs, as they seem awfully loyal, which isn't exactly a normal trait for a tanar'ri... I'd say no on the Ghaunadar bit if you mean by it as him influencing her directly. If you meant indirectly, as in she took a look at his creations and decided that she liked a couple of their abilities and stuck them in her own, then yes, I'd say it was possible, but I don't think any of this has been covered in canon lore that I'm aware of.
Lord Karsus 10-30-07, 10:43 AM	Did Ghaunadar influence Lolth when she granted the Yochlols such malleable forms upon arrising as a new head of the anti-seldarine? -Good question. We don't know, and probably never will, but Ghaunadaur and Lolth did have a lot of interaction in those "early days". It trying to subsume her, and her trying, and eventually beating it back. Good times...
Suin Bahhar 10-30-07, 10:50 AM	Ooh! I stumbled upon this little piece of evidence Wendonai will return in 1376 DR. Great fun! Totally gonna run this with my players...
Zanan 10-30-07, 12:28 PM	Ooh! I stumbled upon this little piece of evidence Wendonai will return in 1376 DR. Great fun! Totally gonna run this with my players... Aye right, then Lady Penitent II happens and ... ... Cavatina makes short work of him. No word on any influence of Ghaunadaur* in the Yochlol entry of the Fiendish Codex I. Very decent yochlol now. *Yes, I know that he's no Core deity, but the article is pretty definite with their creation.
Suin Bahhar 10-30-07, 06:59 PM	Cavatina is a Swordmaiden of Eilistraee? Guess she has some pretty pimp equipment to off him like that. I guess I'm totally ignoring the Pentinent series as of now. Wendonai will rule his own kingdom in and under Chondalwood, remaking an infernal Syorpiir.Where was Wendonai banished? Did this cleric of Horus-Re who expelled him use epic magic? Is a banishment like that just a ticket to the rest of the multiverse or was he bound in a demiplane?
Zanan 10-31-07, 04:46 AM	Wendonai & Cavatina spoilers In the LP series he was layering in Lolth's realm (sleeping) and she used him as a tormentor of Halisstra. The latter, in turn, offered Cavatina as bait to get free of the balor and he accepted. Halisstra brought the Darksong Knight in Wendonai's reach, another epic battle occured and Cavatina prevailed. The latter, BTW, is a Darksong Knight 8 / Cleric 14, i.e. not that incompetent. Note that the balor did not explode after the fight, nor did he fully disappear from the sava broad, but "flew away" on his own. Very strange, but there you go.
Lord Karsus 10-31-07, 12:42 PM	Very strange, but there you go. -That sums up so much, lately.
Suin Bahhar 11-16-07, 09:05 AM	What kind of a relationship do the feyri have with Wendonai or Malkazid? Anyone made a dark elven or drowlike feyri yet? Or are those dreagloths the drow "feyri"?
Lord Karsus 11-16-07, 12:04 PM	What kind of a relationship do the feyri have with Wendonai or Malkazid? -Malkizid was the hidden power behind Sarya Dlardraegeth's recent bid for power. He was supplying her with information (how to alter Mythals) and soldiers (fields, devils, 'loths, etc.). Anyone made a dark elven or drowlike feyri yet? Or are those dreagloths the drow "feyri"? -Technically, I guess you could consider Draegloth the Drow version of Fey'ri.
Zanan 11-16-07, 02:53 PM	Well, methinks Wendonai had a hand in them Vyshanti and those who followed them turning to experimenting with devils and demons, unions from which the fey'ri sprang. Could have been Malkizid too ... it's in the GHotR for sure. Fey'ri are essentially the tiefling version of the elves, the surface elves. Draegloth though are "half-fiend drow", born from drow and glabrezu in that much puplicized ritual at the end of the education of the Lolthite priestesses. Do note that very few priestesses "enjoy" these pleasantries and even less get pregnant. Draegloth themselves are sterile. As for the other question, yes, I did my version of the drow fey'ri, as yet unpublished. Send money, gold bars, slaves and other neat things pleasing to my eyes via the usual ways ...
Fingoldfin 11-16-07, 10:23 PM	There are the Demonfey and the Fey'ri. The Demonfey are half-demon sun-elves and the Fey'ri are more like one fourth demon. So if you want an equivalent to Draegloths I think it would be Demonfey. All the Demonfey seem to be unique. Some have 4 arms, some have feathers, others have wings...etc. Lady Penitent 2 explains that most descendants of the Illythiri darks elves have demon blood in them. That makes most drow equivalent to tieflings and means that in the past there must be half-demon Illythiri. In the next Realms novel half-demon dark elves escape a stasis field and conquer the underdark.:eek:
Zanan 11-17-07, 04:44 AM	Lady Penitent 2 explains that most descendants of the Illythiri darks elves have demon blood in them. That makes most drow equivalent to tieflings and means that in the past there must be half-demon Illythiri. Note that LP II just states the boastings of Wendonai, i.e. that he had many dark elven female consorts. It is hardly the case that he bedded thousands of Ilythiiri females and thus all modern day drow of Ilythiiri pedigree have demon blood in them. What he did was turning them over to Lolth and hence he may lay claim to them being Lolth's and his "brain children". Daemonfey are indeed half-fiends, while the fey'ri are essentially elven tieflings. They are all detailed in Cloak & Dagger, BTW, while you can find the remaining Daemonfey in 1372 DR in Hellgate Keep. Sadly, the Last Mythal series, well ... I won't spoiler the show here. Draegloth are (as in: ARE) half-fiend drow, as per description in Races of Faerūn or Monsters of Faerūn. Not that difficult to discern, as they are direct offspring of a glabrezu (demon) and a drow. While the MM gives you the average half-fiend, in the Draegloth you find a variant. Methinks there is actually an article on variant half-fiends on the main site.
Suin Bahhar 11-17-07, 10:16 AM	I do like the demonic heritage angle for drow nobles. That explains their increased innate magical abilities. Wendonai will have easier time manipulating/dominating closer kin. The crown wars must have spurred the demonic influence on the noble darkelven clans to great heights. Vile spells are very practical against elves (low con) and with caution and precise application can turn tides in battles. Those who held more power would also have more chance of surviving the descent and the life in the underdark after it. Hence current drow blood has strong demonic influences.
Zanan 11-17-07, 03:48 PM	I do like the demonic heritage angle for drow nobles. That explains their increased innate magical abilities. Wendonai will have easier time manipulating/dominating closer kin. The crown wars must have spurred the demonic influence on the noble darkelven clans to great heights. Vile spells are very practical against elves (low con) and with caution and precise application can turn tides in battles. Those who held more power would also have more chance of surviving the descent and the life in the underdark after it. Hence current drow blood has strong demonic influences. Are you Gothic Dan in disguise? Just out of interest ... the gnomes' spell-like abilities come from what source then? An ancient tie to sprites? :D Now really, this is where rumours and hearsay start to grow arms and legs and a month from now people will come here asking about the sources of the drow's demonic blood and all. If you read the Ilythiiri history - even as presented in TGHotR - you will find that the dark elves were at great heights long before any demon chap got involved. There is no source whatsoever speaking about dark elves were pro-creating with demons, just the utterance of a boastful demonlord. If anything a demon lord says is taken for granted, well, you know ... NB: We speak of about 75 generations (app. 150 years) of drow since the Descent. The demon lord only bedded the powerful lasses (unless you imagine him to be very very busy) and was not there all the time either. Do you think that he managed to create an entire race of tens of thousands of individuals from that? Including hundreds of half-fiends which would first spring from his relationships, followed by hundreds upon hundreds of drow-tieflings to spread his genes? Aye right.
Suin Bahhar 11-18-07, 05:50 PM	Are you Gothic Dan in disguise? Just out of interest ... the gnomes' spell-like abilities come from what source then? An ancient tie to sprites? :DMy disguise skills are pretty high so you wouldn't know. I though gnomes commonly had more earth genasi ancestry. Now really, this is where rumours and hearsay start to grow arms and legs and a month from now people will come here asking about the sources of the drow's demonic blood and all. If you read the Ilythiiri history - even as presented in TGHotR - you will find that the dark elves were at great heights long before any demon chap got involved. There is no source whatsoever speaking about dark elves were pro-creating with demons, just the utterance of a boastful demonlord. If anything a demon lord says is taken for granted, well, you know ...I found it an interesting theory, thats all. I might apply it to my realms. Do you know the closest drow city underneath the Chondalwood? I might want to have Wendonai go the this drow enclave for allies in his new schemes. NB: We speak of about 75 generations (app. 150 years) of drow since the Descent. The demon lord only bedded the powerful lasses (unless you imagine him to be very very busy) and was not there all the time either. Do you think that he managed to create an entire race of tens of thousands of individuals from that? Including hundreds of half-fiends which would first spring from his relationships, followed by hundreds upon hundreds of drow-tieflings to spread his genes? Aye right.No. I was talking about the noble castes during the crown wars. If these families survived the descent and remained dominant the nobleborn drow generations later might still have high traces of demonic blood if the houses paired drow of only noble breed.
Fingoldfin 11-19-07, 01:47 AM	Note that LP II just states the boastings of Wendonai, i.e. that he had many dark elven female consorts. It is hardly the case that he bedded thousands of Ilythiiri females and thus all modern day drow of Ilythiiri pedigree have demon blood in them. What he did was turning them over to Lolth and hence he may lay claim to them being Lolth's and his "brain children". Daemonfey are indeed half-fiends, while the fey'ri are essentially elven tieflings. They are all detailed in Cloak & Dagger, BTW, while you can find the remaining Daemonfey in 1372 DR in Hellgate Keep. Sadly, the Last Mythal series, well ... I won't spoiler the show here. Draegloth are (as in: ARE) half-fiend drow, as per description in Races of Faerūn or Monsters of Faerūn. Not that difficult to discern, as they are direct offspring of a glabrezu (demon) and a drow. While the MM gives you the average half-fiend, in the Draegloth you find a variant. Methinks there is actually an article on variant half-fiends on the main site. I'll go reread that section of the book, but I came away thinking that Wendonai said many Ilythiiri were his descendants. Maybe he lied? He is a demon. Maybe I just got the whole thing wrong. I did finish the book in the middle of the night.:)
Zireael 11-19-07, 02:42 AM	A point against reading books too late in the evening... And I don't think the drow have fiendish blood in them... :( They're just corrupt, evil elves.
Zanan 11-19-07, 04:06 AM	Chondalwood ... well, the nearest "known" city would probably be Llurth Dreier, home of these Ghaunadaur worshippers. Lost Empires of Faerūn is quite specific about Wendonai's rule, BTW, even his length of stay. BTW II, Mrs. Smedman created an entirely new line of thought (and hence canon) about the possibility of "redemption" for the drow, virtually saying that the Ilythiiri's descendents have drawn the short straw. No further comment.
Zireael 11-19-07, 09:06 AM	The nobles don't have any demonic blood in them, doesn't matter if they're from Chondal or somewhere else, they have only got the power of levitate (Highborn Drow feat). And there's no way to 'redeem' the drow!:rolleyes:
Suin Bahhar 11-19-07, 02:20 PM	Nonsense.
Fingoldfin 11-19-07, 03:36 PM	Ok, I went back to reread LP2. "Slowly, over millennia, both before and after the Descent, I had my way with the Ilythiiri. It was..." he ran a black, sore-crusted tongue over his lips. "...delicious. And with each succeeding generation, with each new squalling dhaerow babe born in the thirteen millennia between then and now, my taint spread." Wendonai LP2 pg216 He then goes on to tell Cavatina that he can smell his demonic taint on her because she is Ilythiiri. He also tells Halisstra that she doesn't have his taint because she is Miyeritari. It sounds to me like he is saying that at least some Ilythiiri in the past were his half-demon children. It could be a lie or a metaphor. It makes sense when you think about some of the canon rituals of Loth's clergy that appear in RAS books. A high Priestess must summon and seduce a demon. Some times a Drow house is "blessed" with offspring from the union. What does every one think? :)
Suin Bahhar 11-19-07, 05:10 PM	In LEoF the Ilythiiri noble houses (such as the Sethomiir) are mentioned to choose patron demons to enhance their clans with power and gifts. This was during the first crown war. As the second crown war begins nine or eight generations later the ilythiiri started to act even more vicious. The gifts these noble houses were handed could very well be demonic offspring. I can even think different demonic patrons than Wendonai might have had some mingling with highborn dark elves.
Lord Karsus 11-19-07, 05:47 PM	-There is no doubt that certain Drow groups have closer associates with Demons, Devils and so on. The idea that all Drow are Demonic or Infernal in origin, or pedagree, though, is ludacris! -Certain Drow? Yes. All Drow? No.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-19-07, 06:41 PM	-There is no doubt that certain Drow groups have closer associates with Demons, Devils and so on. The idea that all Drow are Demonic or Infernal in origin, or pedagree, though, is ludacris! And annoying.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-19-07, 06:45 PM	Now really, this is where rumours and hearsay start to grow arms and legs and a month from now people will come here asking about the sources of the drow's demonic blood and all. If you read the Ilythiiri history - even as presented in TGHotR - you will find that the dark elves were at great heights long before any demon chap got involved. There is no source whatsoever speaking about dark elves were pro-creating with demons, just the utterance of a boastful demonlord. If anything a demon lord says is taken for granted, well, you know ... Great point. Wedonai in the recent LP novel could be considered an unreliable narrator even if you accept all novels to be "canon" for your Realms with no further questions asked (I don't). He's a demon, for goodness's sake! They LIE!
Lord Karsus 11-19-07, 07:23 PM	And annoying. -And that. He's a demon, for goodness's sake! They LIE! -Even more so, he's a Demon of Seduction. He's used to saying things that aren't necessarily true even moreso than the normal Demon.
Stigger 11-19-07, 07:24 PM	Though that rumors to that effect are present, as surface elf 'propaganda' is fairly realistic I think... a significant portion of the population might even believe it. Doesn't necessarily make it true though.
Zanan 11-20-07, 03:43 AM	Obviously ... chosing demons as patrons could, at the time, even have included Lolth herself. And we should keep in mind that having demons as patrons does not necessarily mean that the Ilythiiri or drow bedded them on a regular basis. In any case, we will see how it all unfolds in Ascendancy of the Last. Much has been changed or developed in this series that can hardly be considered to having been canon before, so a few changes may still come our way.
Aerostoth 11-20-07, 10:50 AM	There should be a demonic drow, but not a half-fiend. Something like a fey'ri. Along with demonic spiders.
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 12:27 PM	In any case, we will see how it all unfolds in Ascendancy of the Last. Much has been changed or developed in this series that can hardly be considered to having been canon before, so a few changes may still come our way. -Thankfully, we don't necessarily have to listen.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 12:46 PM	-Thankfully, we don't necessarily have to listen. All too true!
Fingoldfin 11-21-07, 02:05 AM	I really like the LP trilogy, but the events in it will NOT happen in my campaign. I think I will use some of the ideas about the demonic drow. I worked out a template for Dhaerow'ri.
Stigger 11-21-07, 04:02 AM	You can get demonic spiders by applying the Fiendish template to one... or just use a Bebelith if you're feeling really evil about things.
Aerostoth 11-21-07, 11:49 AM	I really like the LP trilogy, but the events in it will NOT happen in my campaign. I think I will use some of the ideas about the demonic drow. I worked out a template for Dhaerow'ri. Can u post the stats?:teach:
Fingoldfin 11-22-07, 12:07 AM	Can u post the stats?:teach: Yup. It will have to wait until after Thanksgiving though. :)
Zireael 11-22-07, 02:51 AM	Even if Illythiiri drow have had demonic blood from Wendonai and Miyeritari didn't, it was a score of generations ago and the whole thing would have purified by now... half-demon + drow just gives drow, and so on...
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 03:10 AM	half-demon + drow just gives drow, and so on... -Technically, a Half-Demon and a Drow mating would give you the Elven equivalent of the Tiefling. But, you point that the bloodline would get "watered down" into nothingness is valid.
MarkusTay63 11-22-07, 11:27 AM	Even if ALL Drow have fiendish blood - which they don't - they should still be able to be redeemed! If archangels can fall, and fiends can be redeemed, then why couldn't their offspring? Both of those have happened in canon -you could even have a Paladin Pit Fiend, as unlikely as that sounds. I just don't understand why the Drow would not be given the same opportunities as every other race in the universe. If I want to get all RW religous for just a moment, isn't that what "Free-will" is supposed to be all about? Making choices and setting your 'moral compass', so as to determine weather your soul takes the 'high road' or the low? That whole "doomed from birth" scenario just doesn't sit well with me. :nonono:
Stigger 11-22-07, 11:54 AM	Can't say it sits well with me either... not much of a fan of predestination.
Fingoldfin 11-22-07, 12:18 PM	Even if ALL Drow have fiendish blood - which they don't - they should still be able to be redeemed! If archangels can fall, and fiends can be redeemed, then why couldn't their offspring? Both of those have happened in canon -you could even have a Paladin Pit Fiend, as unlikely as that sounds. I just don't understand why the Drow would not be given the same opportunities as every other race in the universe. If I want to get all RW religous for just a moment, isn't that what "Free-will" is supposed to be all about? Making choices and setting your 'moral compass', so as to determine weather your soul takes the 'high road' or the low? That whole "doomed from birth" scenario just doesn't sit well with me. :nonono: In LP2 the Balor lied when he said she couldn't be redeemed. After he said that she was redeemed.
Aerostoth 11-22-07, 12:23 PM	I agree that they could be "watered down," but Drow, being a proud race and increasing their power by mixing with demons would increase their pride respectively. Being proud of something means that you don't want to get rid of it (among other aspects). Wouldn't some Drow be too proud to "water down" their power by mixing with none demonic-Drow?
Stigger 11-22-07, 01:52 PM	Possibly, but I tend to see the drow as 'proud' of their drow heritage period, Lolths chosen children and all that, so its not really a dilution per se. For them to be proud of that heritage would be to value demonic heritage more than the fact that the whole race is 'blessed' by Lolth.
Aerostoth 11-22-07, 02:16 PM	yeah, I guess your right.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-22-07, 03:47 PM	Can't say it sits well with me either... Nor with me. But of course, the recent plot development for the drow as a whole doesn't sit well with me either!
Fingoldfin 11-23-07, 10:28 AM	What did everyone think about the link between Drow, the Faerzress, and the Descent? I liked it. I thought it was a nice new piece of lore that made sense.
Zanan 11-23-07, 12:41 PM	What did everyone think about the link between Drow, the Faerzress, and the Descent? I liked it. I thought it was a nice new piece of lore that made sense. ... it was indeed. If only the thing Q'arlynd did with it afterwards hadn't left about a dozen open questions and thus blew much of the end of the story surrounding the faerzress along with it. :allalone:
Fingoldfin 11-23-07, 03:42 PM	... it was indeed. If only the thing Q'arlynd did with it afterwards hadn't left about a dozen open questions and thus blew much of the end of the story surrounding the faerzress along with it. :allalone: Ah...that is a perfect example of why novels should Not be canon.
AskaniPsion 11-23-07, 08:27 PM	What did everyone think about the link between Drow, the Faerzress, and the Descent? I liked it. I thought it was a nice new piece of lore that made sense. Yeah I liked it too. It makes sense why they have those other special abilities. I also think Eberron Drow shouldn't get the Spell resistance, innate spell abilities or the light sensitivity unlike Drow from other worlds.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 06:33 PM	What did everyone think about the link between Drow, the Faerzress, and the Descent? I liked it. I thought it was a nice new piece of lore that made sense. I hated it, sorry. It seems like everything nowadays is the end result of ancient elves using High Magic. Because, like, that's the ONLY explanation that could possibly be used. :rolleyes:
Fingoldfin 11-25-07, 12:31 AM	I hated it, sorry. It seems like everything nowadays is the end result of ancient elves using High Magic. Because, like, that's the ONLY explanation that could possibly be used. :rolleyes: I can see why you feel that way, but I thought it was interesting and made sense.:)
MarkusTay63 11-25-07, 01:40 AM	EVERYTHING IS the Elves fault! I've been saying it for years... :P
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 01:55 AM	EVERYTHING IS the Elves fault! I've been saying it for years... :P -It's true; He has.
Zanan 11-25-07, 12:37 PM	-It's true; He has. And fair enough. You see, it is true. The elves are at fault ... and the aboleths, and illithids and all this other strange folk ... I mean, we drow keep saying it for years now :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-25-07, 05:48 PM	I can see why you feel that way, but I thought it was interesting and made sense.:) You said that already. No offense. I gave you my opinion because you asked for it.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 07:25 PM	I mean, we drow keep saying it for years now :D -But, look at what company you Drow are keeping. I mean, Demons and Yugoloth are one thing, but MT!? That's a whole new low. :P
GothicDan 11-26-07, 01:30 AM	If anything, I've come not to not put much faith in MT's thoughts. ;) And, sure, things are the Elves' faults - just like the Greeks, the Germans, the Americans, the English, etc., have all been 'at fault' at times. The greater one's aspirations and influence, the more drastic one's actions tend to be on the world.
Stigger 11-26-07, 01:49 AM	If anything, I've come not to not put much faith in MT's thoughts. ;) Gonna have to explain that one Dan, can't quite make it out as being sensical... :P
Lord Karsus 11-26-07, 02:33 AM	If anything, I've come not to not put much faith in MT's thoughts. ;) -MT's a good guy. Just, when he starts talking about Drow, and Elves (to a certain extend), ignore him. :)
Zanan 11-26-07, 04:53 AM	-But, look at what company you Drow are keeping. I mean, Demons and Yugoloth are one thing, but MT!? That's a whole new low. :P Nono ... it was him jumping on our bandwaggon, you know! :D
18DELTA 11-26-07, 11:15 AM	I hated it, sorry. It seems like everything nowadays is the end result of ancient elves using High Magic. Because, like, that's the ONLY explanation that could possibly be used. :rolleyes: Those darn pesky Elves!!!;) :P :D
Suin Bahhar 11-26-07, 01:57 PM	Enlightnened Drow Wizard in Luth Dreier: "Its all a lie! We Ilythiiri were cast down by demons, Araushnee in particular. Only elder evils like Ghaunadar can save us now!"
Lord Karsus 11-26-07, 10:36 PM	Nono ... it was him jumping on our bandwaggon, you know! :D -MT might have come first. He's like an Elder Evil.
Zanan 11-27-07, 05:00 AM	-MT might have come first. He's like an Elder Evil. Sort of Juiblex / Ghaunadaur look-alike? I'd doubt he'd welcome this notion. :D
Lord Karsus 11-27-07, 07:20 AM	Sort of Juiblex / Ghaunadaur look-alike? I'd doubt he'd welcome this notion. :D -I was gonna say like an Aboleth. :D
18DELTA 11-27-07, 03:51 PM	-I was gonna say like an Aboleth. :D :dancin: :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :dancin:
Aerostoth 01-27-08, 05:40 PM	Hey, Fingoldfin, did you already post the Dhaerow'ri yet? (sorry, i havn't been on in a while)
Krash 01-29-08, 06:54 AM	The book is RIDDLED with errors - read the part about where the Chultans come from - it's completely WRONG. Why? Where's the 'correct' information? -- George Krashos
Lykor 01-29-08, 10:42 PM	Information about the founding of Chult is in the AGHotR. It's been a while, but I remember quite there was some basic history in A Ring of Winter (or maybe that was just Mezro) as well.
MarkusTay63 01-30-08, 01:23 PM	Why? Where's the 'correct' information? -- George KrashosI've had this discussion with Brian James, and he told me it was incorrect. The GHotR clearly states that the (human) Tabaxi came from Katashaka, whereas that RoF blurb states they came from one of the two large islands south-west of Zakhara. Unless you are saying that Katashaka is 'just an island', but that would be like saying Australia is 'just an island'. ;) My Take: The tribe that lives on Tabaxiland (the large island off the coast of Katashaka) were the Tabaxi that were too frightened to travel the full distance to Chult. Ubtao/the Coatl allowed the tribes-people who could not bear the full journey to settle upon the island, and it thus became the new Tabaxi homeland. The brave Tabaxi that were able to overcome their fears and travel the whole way became the Chultans (after mixing with several indigenous tribes of Turmeric peoples). That fixes everything, I think. ;) Not at home, so I'm just pulling all of this off the top of my head ATM - I hate being away from my notes. Also, none of this will matter anymore with 4e on the horizon - past canon has become 'optional'. :(
Krash 02-01-08, 06:18 PM	I've had this discussion with Brian James, and he told me it was incorrect. The GHotR clearly states that the (human) Tabaxi came from Katashaka, whereas that RoF blurb states they came from one of the two large islands south-west of Zakhara. Unless you are saying that Katashaka is 'just an island', but that would be like saying Australia is 'just an island'. ;) If such is the case, then with all due respect to Brian, it wasn't incorrect at all - he just didn't like the write-up as it was found in RoF and decided to change it by author fiat in GHotR. Likely because he is a fan of "Katashaka". I've never approached any published realmslore as 'wrong' simply because I had a 'new' and 'better' idea. Then again, I'm not writing for the 4E Realms, so what do I know.:) -- George Krashos
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 07:13 PM	Just out of curiosity, where and when did "Katashaka" first appear in Realmslore? I had never heard of it until recently.
Old Sage 02-01-08, 07:26 PM	Katashaka was the unofficial name Brian James used for one of his articles in the "Candlekeep Compendium," featuring lore about the dark continent located southwest of Faerūn. Since it survived editing, we've now learnt a little more about Katashaka in the Grand History of the Realms tome, where it has become canonised.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 07:50 PM	Katashaka was the unofficial name Brian James used for one of his articles in the "Candlekeep Compendium," featuring lore about the dark continent located southwest of Faerūn. Since it survived editing, we've now learnt a little more about Katashaka in the Grand History of the Realms tome, where it has become canonised. Thanks for the information, Sage. I can always count on you.;)
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 11:16 AM	I've never approached any published realmslore as 'wrong' simply because I had a 'new' and 'better' idea.And THAT is why YOU are my favorite designer of the current roster. Established lore is to be cherished, and if anything, made to fit better by later works, NOT disregarded altogether. Personally, I PREFER that they came from the island off the coast of Zakhara, and have even named said island Tabaxiland on some of the world maps I've made up. ;) Was that YOUR piece of lore, GK? Then again, I'm not writing for the 4E Realms, so what do I know.:) -- George KrashosTHAT is sad news indeed - although I think Ed may be able to salvage the travesty that will be the FRCG, I had hoped at least one 'loremaster' would remain on to at least try to maintain consistency. I guess I can kiss that hope goodbye... :(
Krash 02-11-08, 07:32 AM	I'm pretty sure that was Eric considering that he did the human write-ups in "Races of Faerūn" (which I pitched in and helped with here and there). As for 4E, well I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how it unfolds.:cool: -- George Krashos