| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Outlaw888803-23-07, 03:49 AM | Demogorgon...the prince of demons...it says in the BOVD that few on any plane can challenge Demogorgon and win (Personally I think his write up was kind of weak) Anyway, who can take out the prince of demons? Or, who do you think should be able to? Other than the gods obviously. Great Dragons like Inferno? Asmodeus? The Simbul? (I hope not) oh yeah and is there a good write up on these forums on Demogorgon that is better than the BOVD one? |
| Terraneaux03-23-07, 04:13 AM | For him/her to really make sense in the role he/she is portrayed, he should be able to roll over most gods with ease. For reasons which I myself don't understand, recent depictions of Demogorgon and other archfiends have showed him at a power level that most archmages wouldn't have a problem with. |
| Khaelieth03-23-07, 04:36 AM | Remember, it all depends on which plane they're fighting on. If a mage fought him on his own plane, Demogorgon would need toothpicks. If on the other hand it was on the material plane, I'd say the mage would win. If he was a Sun Elf. |
| Terraneaux03-23-07, 04:40 AM | This whole talk of "on his home plane" bothers me because there is no mechanical reason why Demogorgon would be more powerful on his/her home plane. I'd peg D's divine rank at about a 4, but he/she should be personally powerful enough to defend his/her realm against all comers. |
| redmagefish03-23-07, 06:38 AM | he would be much for powerful on his plane he is the demon prince and has more than one ally he can call more easier if on his plane plus is plane most liky has alot of lava , acid spikes. so i would say do not fight him on his home plane.:devil:+ :king: = :ghosted: |
| Lord Karsus03-23-07, 10:39 AM | This whole talk of "on his home plane" bothers me because there is no mechanical reason why Demogorgon would be more powerful on his/her home plane. I'd peg D's divine rank at about a 4, but he/she should be personally powerful enough to defend his/her realm against all comers. -Think of it like a sports game. Yeah, your team is the same, no matter where you are. But, statisically, most teams play better at home. While at home, they have the backing of the crowd, familiarity with the field, and so on. The same ideas apply here. In D&D, most deities (and presumably Demon Lords and Archdevils) have the ability to alter their realm at will, another reason why you don't want to fight a deity on it's homeplane. |
| ShadezofDis03-23-07, 12:20 PM | I did. Tore the page right out and burned it! Lil bugger wasn't all he's cracked up to be :) On a more serious note; I handle the various greater powers of the outer planes as greater gods on their home plane (that's thier actual physical body) and as the "statsed out representations" when in another plane (this would be their "avatar") I rule that any being who can grant spells can also form "avatars" (this gets a little messy with Eltab and I haven't really come up with any solutions to this, but I only just thought of how Eltab throws this theory around a bit) So, who can beat Demogorgon on the Prime (or any nonnative plane for him) is someone who's "stated" better than Demogorgon. The only ones who can beat Demogorgon on his plane are those who can maintain a "greater godhood" in the Abyss (and they're still asking for a beating) |
| Lokenarin03-23-07, 05:38 PM | It seems that Orcus the Prince of the Undead would have the best chance on defeating him. If he had his wand, which he does then all he has to do is get near him and Orcus could kill him and absorb his titles!!!! I hve always voted for Orcus as the most powerful demon in the abyss. number 1 bad boy... Orcus. Demongorgon and graz'zt are tied for 2nd in my book. |
| rolig03-23-07, 05:40 PM | PunPun:D |
| runestar03-24-07, 09:15 AM | He is a crummy cr23 in fiendish codex. :weep: |
| ShadezofDis03-24-07, 11:45 AM | It seems that Orcus the Prince of the Undead would have the best chance on defeating him. If he had his wand, which he does then all he has to do is get near him and Orcus could kill him and absorb his titles!!!! I hve always voted for Orcus as the most powerful demon in the abyss. number 1 bad boy... Orcus. Demongorgon and graz'zt are tied for 2nd in my book. Since Orcus still is #2 in standing then I'd say his wand trick wouldn't work out. Besides, I thought that got broke in the FR cosmology. |
| ShadezofDis03-24-07, 11:45 AM | He is a crummy cr23 in fiendish codex. :weep: Then ignore that. It's easy enough :) |
| Shemeska the Marauder03-24-07, 07:08 PM | He is a crummy cr23 in fiendish codex. :weep: Correction: his aspect/avatar is cr23. He has no specific upper bound for his stats of his true form. In his true form, on his home plane, there aren't any deities suicidal enough to want to challange him to any degree, and his rivals among the fiends are locked into a conflict that doesn't show any signs of a major swing in the immediate future. |
| runestar03-25-07, 08:57 AM | Correction: his aspect/avatar is cr23. He has no specific upper bound for his stats of his true form. If you believe the rumours... I bet the designers simply cooked that up on the fly to play down that big booboo in FC1...:P |
| Entreri100003-25-07, 03:20 PM | They are all pushovers and underpowered, in the Material Plane that might make sense, but not in the Abyss. In the Abyss, the 3 Princes should get a divine rating of 16-17, Demorgorgan being 1. |
| Lord Mortanius03-26-07, 06:08 AM | Demogorgon, Orcus, Juiblex, Yeenoghu and some others were lesser powers in 2e. Take it how you will. |
| CzarGarrett03-26-07, 01:57 PM | In the Abyss- Demogorgon wins in 1 round. On the Prime- Demogorgon wins in 2 rounds. |
| Terraneaux03-26-07, 03:57 PM | You mean 1/2 a round and 1 round respectively. Remember, he/she's got 2 heads. And two actions... Like I said, I personally prefer keeping his/her divine rank low, as I see godhood as something he does on weekends to keep busy, and giving him/her personal combat ability that puts most gods to shame. More than any of the other tanar'ri demon princes, Demogorgon is an alien, cthulhoid entity whose thoughts are not comprehensible to mortals, or most gods, for that matter. Anyone who tries to challenge him/her should get devoured, messily. |
| herceg03-28-07, 04:37 AM | Short answer: the Dm Long(er) answer: whomever the Dm wants to (be able to do it). :) |
| Dr_Tough03-30-07, 09:35 PM | Well, in my opinion, I dislike the idea that Demogorgon (and the archdevils, and demon lords, and deities) were given stats in the first place. I have more of the 2nd Edition mindset of that there are just some beings that shouldn't get stats because the PCs can not hope to defeat them. But as far as monsters are concerned... Demogorgon is for all intents and purposes a demigod. So anything that is as powerful as a demigod. Also remember that the Prince of Demons has legions of Taner'ri (or however it's spelled) followers, so an enemy would have to defeat them as well. |
| The_Shaman03-30-07, 10:35 PM | On his plane, I can consider him a demideity-level power, perhaps with some obscured source of power that could be cut off. On the Prime Material, his stats are okay imo. |
| Treymordin04-01-07, 07:35 PM | Who said that anyone would fight Demogorgon while he was alone? |
| Calmar04-02-07, 03:43 AM | What has Demogorgon done to you?! Leave him in peace! :weep: :weep: ;) |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr04-02-07, 09:24 AM | BoVD lists the demonlords/archdevils in a NON-EPIC format. The ELH isn't madatory, so feel free to bump them up if you plan on running a epic campaign. FC lists avatars/aspects (pick your lingo). I think it states that clearly somewhere in the book. As for being stronger in the abyss.. HELL YES HE IS!!! You really think ol' blue butt would fight fair? After his limitless legion of fiends & servitors wear his enemy down, his countless millenia of fighting rivals, and planning for such combat would give him a tactical advantage. But, if you're looking for a fair one on one Caesar's Palace main event- Asmodeus without a doubt. Maybe Mephistopheles, Graz'zt, Orcus, or any God now that I think about it. |
| ShadezofDis04-02-07, 11:54 PM | But, if you're looking for a fair one on one Caesar's Palace main event- Asmodeus without a doubt. Maybe Mephistopheles, Graz'zt, Orcus, or any God now that I think about it. The thing about Demogorgon is that he's supposed to (IMnshO) be able to knock the stuffing outta all these guys in a straight 1v1. No one is sure what, how, why, if, when or really anything about what's going on in Demogorgon's heads but they're all pretty sure that if they tried to end Demogorgon's existance he'd tear them apart. I'm also partial to the idea that, since cosmologies are even more seperate than before, the multicosmic beings are INCREDIBLY powerful. It's just that in a specific cosmology their aspect/avatar/whatever is weaker. But since they exist in The Great Tree and The Great Wheel and Joe's Weekend Tavern/Whatever they can "reform" in a cosmology should someone kill them. This may take a millenium but that doesn't matter to an immortal aspect of reality. :) |
| Treymordin04-03-07, 01:20 AM | Does he even have a prescence in the Realms? |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-03-07, 01:29 AM | Does he even have a prescence in the Realms? He might not particularly care about Toril, but he's in the Abyss (or Toril's xerox of the Abyss if you use the 3e cosmology). And oh... He, or rather a servant of his, is involved in the plot of the FR novel that just came out, 'Depths of Madness' |
| herceg04-03-07, 01:44 AM | Yep, and don't forget Watcher's Keep (if that's official). |
| ShadezofDis04-03-07, 10:04 AM | Does he even have a prescence in the Realms? Personally, I think so (and the spoiler confirms really *g*) but the way I'm currently running things is that Eltab has the most influence in the Realms of the Demon Lords and right now, IMO, Eltab is cementing that hold (ie. trying to remove the influence of other Demon Lords from the Realms, thus having the Realms all to himself) Eltab does present a problem for my little theory, since he's physically in the Realms but I might just work it that he has an Avatar bound to the Realms and the greater part of his essence is shut down in the Abyss. . . that's really sloppy but I'm not exactly sure how to handle the Eltab kink in my theory :) |
| Lady_Mhaor04-03-07, 07:50 PM | None but a lord of hell himself could beat Demo and maybe not even then if it was in the maw. and in a campaign you should never beat demo (unless you summoned Bane himself) seeing how he has constructs and fiends that dont even exist on other planes. on prime ehhhh maybe if all the realms begged drizz't and cale to work together then. . maybe oh and wall of dwarfs defenders |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr04-04-07, 08:43 AM | Yep, and don't forget Watcher's Keep (if that's official). y'know... thinking back on that, I really liked Watcher's Keep from Baldur's Gate II... seriously doubt its official in any way other than its existance (regarding DemoG) |
| The_Shaman04-05-07, 11:27 AM | Mods that I've seen mention that the Demogorgon encounter has been significantly toned down in order not to be too great a challenge for the players. I didn't find it exactly easy when I played it, and I haven't reached WK since I installed the "fix" mod. Even outside of his place and bound, big D is more than a match for a group of epic adventurers. |
| Ramenth04-06-07, 05:48 PM | I hear that a Bhaalspawn rogue with a large number of Spike Traps can beat him easily. |
| Shan_TheBabau_Burke04-09-07, 06:41 PM | Demogorgon. It's always scheming against itself and one of these days it's gonna win. Until then, it will remain undefeated. |
| ShadezofDis04-09-07, 09:51 PM | Demogorgon. It's always scheming against itself and one of these days it's gonna win. Until then, it will remain undefeated. QFT |
| BrennonGoldeye04-09-07, 10:13 PM | Actually, Aameul has quite a nice singing voice, you just have to bring him a few dozen extracheese pizzas to get him in the mood. Hethradiah is always grumpy though, and lactose intolerant. ..:gah:.. |
| Outlaw888804-09-07, 10:19 PM | Yeah I made this thread just because characters like Elminster and the Simbul have a higher CR than Demogorgon c'mon we all know that Demogorgon could wipe the floor with both of them at the same time |
| BrennonGoldeye04-10-07, 04:11 PM | Hmm. On his home plane. Probably. In Faerun. Not. Guess who has bigger and badder allies?;) |
| Outlaw888804-10-07, 05:51 PM | I mean in a one on one fight,,,,who can take him? Gods, Demi-gods? |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-10-07, 06:18 PM | I mean in a one on one fight,,,,who can take him? Gods, Demi-gods? Depends on who he's fighting, and where they're fighting. If it's in the Abyss, I feel sorry for whatever random mortal or god he'll be eating up and spitting out. But if it's on say, the prime material (ignoring the wierdness of the setup for the sake of argument), demogorgon isn't going to have the same connection to and power over the very environment he'd be in, and in that case he'd be at a disadvantage to a deity (but mortals will still look mighty useful as toothpicks). Speaking very broadly, fighting him on the Abyss would be like fighting a layer of the Abyss itself, given the relationship between abyssal lords and any claimed layer of the plane. It's almost like picking a fight with a god inside that god's deific domain; unwise. |
| The_Shaman04-10-07, 06:42 PM | Perhaps it depends most on whether someone gets the drop on him? while he?'s arguing with him?self. I'm not very good on the details, but Kiaransalee managed to - for a time - dispatch Orcus, and he wasn't exactly a pushover even when compared to Demogorgon. |
| ShadezofDis04-10-07, 07:20 PM | Not very likely, you see, Grazzt and Orcus are CONSTANTLY looking for a way to off Demogorgon and they're good at killing things. And, it'd be ok to kill Demogorgon on the Prime and all. . . but that's not really killing him (I know there are several ways they can appear in the Prime but I can't imagine Demogorgon making himself so vulnerable), just banishing him for a bit. That'd earn his attention and that's one of the worst things in existance. |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-10-07, 07:32 PM | That'd earn his attention and that's one of the worst things in existance. It's like living in a really awesome apartment, but having a crazy, homicidal neighbor living next door who's a complete shut-in that spends all day talking to himself and playing with a dozen my little ponies. Life would be perfect if you left Mr Demogorgon alone and just let him play with sunshine pony, magical wonderland pony, and enslaved fallen solar pony, or whatever. Given that setup it's probably ill advised to then go and knock on his door at 4am, leave a bag of flamin dog poo on the stoop, and run off giggling and shouting how much ponies stink, and tossing a picture of yourself and your address along with it in his face for him to suddenly take notice of you. Generally best to let archfiends play and not call their attention. Things work out best for everyone (except enslaved fallen solar pony). And that'd be a first. Mentioning Demogorgon in the same sentence as my little ponies. Thank you. |
| ShadezofDis04-11-07, 02:05 PM | And that'd be a first. Mentioning Demogorgon in the same sentence as my little ponies. Thank you. Just so long as the big D doesn't find out then you'll be just fine :) Kuddos to you though, I couldn't have imagined that combination in a million years ;) |
| Orrin_CQ04-11-07, 07:27 PM | Asmodeus will take him. |
| ShadezofDis04-11-07, 08:30 PM | Asmodeus will take him. Not in a stand up knock down fight. At least not the way I've read the planes being set up. Typically Demons are stronger than Devils, however, Devils work better together than Demons. At least that's how I view the basics of the Bloodwars and extrapolate out from there. I think Asmodeus might be one of the only beings in existence who might be able to guess what Demogorgon might do though. :) |
| ShadezofDis04-11-07, 08:31 PM | That'd make for a good bet between Lords of the Nine though, what's Demogorgon going to do next? Sorta like that cow in a pasture game. ;) |
| Grandmaster_Kane04-11-07, 09:19 PM | My dude has been epic for a while 30 Bab/ 10 War hulk ( I have this class because i am a drow with permenet enlarge person on him making me a large character)/ 10 frenzied berserker/ 25 Fighter im pretty sure i would rip his arms off and beat him to death with them he is what like 26 cr? |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-12-07, 01:03 AM | im pretty sure i would rip his arms off and beat him to death with them he is what like 26 cr? His aspect/avatar is CR 23. There's no strictly defined "true" statblock. |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr04-12-07, 04:04 PM | we'll all just have to wait and see exactly how Dragon Mag's latest Adventure Path plays out. Is DemoG supposed to make an appearance in the last installment, and if so, is a combat encounter? I gotta tell you, I ran the age of Woms as a FR campaign (it worked well, honestly!) and Kyuss was nooooo joke. If the DM doesn't pull his punches & hold back, Kyuss could & should mop the floor with a bunch of PCs (if he was still at full power- they gave a bunch of side encounters which lowered his stat block down) So anyway, if DemoG does make his way into Dragon Mag as the BBEG, we'll all have a good smile at that encounter write up... except the PCs who'll be squaring off against him... |
| BrennonGoldeye04-12-07, 09:07 PM | My dude has been epic for a while 30 Bab/ 10 War hulk ( I have this class because i am a drow with permenet enlarge person on him making me a large character)/ 10 frenzied berserker/ 25 Fighter im pretty sure i would rip his arms off and beat him to death with them he is what like 26 cr? Sounds fun. The cr 26 version isn't from the same universe as your character. In your character's universe Demogorgon sits at 20 Wiz/ 20 Psi/ 20 Mindmage/ 35 Warblade. If you would like any info on exactly where your blood vessels are just let him know. Ah....Meta....Good times...:cloud9: |
| Grandmaster_Kane04-12-07, 09:08 PM | Sounds fun. The cr 26 version isn't from the same universe as your character. In your character's universe Demogorgon sits at 20 Wiz/ 20 Psi/ 20 Mindmage/ 35 Warblade. If you would like any info on exactly where your blood vessels are just let him know. Ah....Meta....Good times...:cloud9: any i still beat him with a incredibly nice gm lol |
| BrennonGoldeye04-12-07, 09:37 PM | True true..nothing can stand against that.;) |
| Zardnaar04-15-07, 07:27 AM | we'll all just have to wait and see exactly how Dragon Mag's latest Adventure Path plays out. Is DemoG supposed to make an appearance in the last installment, and if so, is a combat encounter? I gotta tell you, I ran the age of Woms as a FR campaign (it worked well, honestly!) and Kyuss was nooooo joke. If the DM doesn't pull his punches & hold back, Kyuss could & should mop the floor with a bunch of PCs (if he was still at full power- they gave a bunch of side encounters which lowered his stat block down) So anyway, if DemoG does make his way into Dragon Mag as the BBEG, we'll all have a good smile at that encounter write up... except the PCs who'll be squaring off against him... yeah he is the final encounter. By reading the summary in one of the adventure isses. If the PCs do everything right to weaken him he is CR 23. At full strength he is CR 28 IIRC (he has used a ritual to make himself more powerful). Also its not clear at this point if the PCs manage to kill him if he is dead permanently as he proably has some way to avoid final death or just reforms perhaps a bit weaker in another abyssal location. The pother demon lords are also getting involved and Malcanthet wats to see him fall. |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr04-15-07, 10:33 AM | well, i know i've read this somewhere (either on the website, in Dragon Mag, or in the codex... the stats listed are "aspects", not the true forms of the demon princes, and even the Book of Vile Darkness purposely did not make them epic calibur BBEG's (i guess at the time the BoVD was written, epic rules were still truely an optional rule set) my point being the Dragon Mag Demon Prince write ups were great, and i wonder what his stat block will be- i just hope they don't do the same thing with DemoG that they did with Kyuss (getting a chance to weaken him before combat). we gotta keep things fresh here people! variety- the spice of life! |
| The_Shaman04-17-07, 08:16 AM | Well, if a demon prince does channel power from the plane - and they do - there ought to be a way to disrupt this connection. Now, the question is - can mortals do it? |
| herceg04-17-07, 08:21 AM | In some games/worlds/myths, demon/devil lords can only be killed by special relics that are made to destroy them. Maybe those relics are not made to kill the planar lord - only to cut the connection between it and its power source (the plane itself). EDIT: to make the destruction of said lord possible at all |
| BrennonGoldeye04-17-07, 02:52 PM | In some games/worlds/myths, demon/devil lords can only be killed by special relics that are made to destroy them. Maybe those relics are not made to kill the planar lord - only to cut the connection between it and its power source (the plane itself). EDIT: to make the destruction of said lord possible at all I play it the same. No matter how much damage you do to anyone ruling a plane you must sever that connection before you can (truly) eliminate them. Just ask Kiaransalee. :) |
| ShadezofDis04-18-07, 11:07 AM | I play it the same. No matter how much damage you do to anyone ruling a plane you must sever that connection before you can (truly) eliminate them. Just ask Kiaransalee. :) I'd run it more along the lines of; FR Cosmology is "removed" from the Great Wheel, where the planes are "real", the planes as they exist in the Great Tree are actually "avatars" of the "real" plane. So, in order to "kill" a Demon Lord in my Realms you must go to the source, through the Great Tree, into the Great Wheel and then into the Demon Lord's realm to sever them from the Realm and then slay them. You can do this in the "avatar" version of their Realm but it won't be a "death" for them so much as a loss of power (-1 to realities that contain you), a loss of face and being "banished" much like Demons are when slayed in the Realms (though on a larger scale, I was thinking a millenium). At least that's what I'm thinking right now, I'm not going to be running it though so it's more of a fun exercise than anything else ;) |
| Daydreamer04-18-07, 01:31 PM | The stats represented are an aspect or avatar not the man himself...so im not sure what the debate is about specifically. Obvioulsy the 'true' form is much stronger. I really do wish they statted these lords in epic format however. Albiet the ElH is pretty badly done. |
| King_Neckchopper04-18-07, 01:47 PM | The Mighty Mighty King Neckchopper can take out most NPC's in publisher material. Demogorgon easily enough to, well his avatar at least. |
| od_vjesala04-22-07, 08:47 PM | this topic would be an issue if only there were no Complete ______(insert a DND clichee here) books ever issued. Sadly... |
| Yxunomei04-23-07, 03:40 AM | The thing about Demogorgon is that he's supposed to (IMnshO) be able to knock the stuffing outta all these guys in a straight 1v1. No one is sure what, how, why, if, when or really anything about what's going on in Demogorgon's heads but they're all pretty sure that if they tried to end Demogorgon's existance he'd tear them apart. I'm also partial to the idea that, since cosmologies are even more seperate than before, the multicosmic beings are INCREDIBLY powerful. It's just that in a specific cosmology their aspect/avatar/whatever is weaker. But since they exist in The Great Tree and The Great Wheel and Joe's Weekend Tavern/Whatever they can "reform" in a cosmology should someone kill them. This may take a millenium but that doesn't matter to an immortal aspect of reality. :) Hmmm, I really don't think so. I mean, Demogorgon is apparently quite evenly matched with the other Demon Princes such as Grazzt and Orcus. On the other hand, judging from the way Asmodeus handled the other Arch-Devils in the Reckoning, I'd say Asmodeus is MUCH stronger than Demogorgon. But I always see beings such as demons representing the extreme aspects of the universe, and thus any conflict would be eternal and could result in no victory (in the long-term anyhow), so on that point, I would agree. |
| Stigger04-23-07, 07:31 AM | Interesting... I usually put Asmodeus' victory in the Reckoning down to some point of order or loophole he knew about more than anything else really... seems more devilish that way to me. |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr04-23-07, 08:45 AM | I agreed... Asmodeus has been around since day 1... he knows all the "fine print" in the way the cosmos works (hell, he probably snuck in his own stipulations when no one was looking) Remember, there is no statable mechanic for Asmodeus' quasi-divine powers while in Baator- its purely a role playing tool that makes for interesting hellish stories. But, if I had to tag it- I'd say its a divinely morphic trait that effects not only the environment, but its inhabitants. Or Asmodeus is just that much of a badass... heh heh |
| Renvale99904-23-07, 01:31 PM | Hmmm, I really don't think so. I mean, Demogorgon is apparently quite evenly matched with the other Demon Princes such as Grazzt and Orcus. On the other hand, judging from the way Asmodeus handled the other Arch-Devils in the Reckoning, I'd say Asmodeus is MUCH stronger than Demogorgon. But I always see beings such as demons representing the extreme aspects of the universe, and thus any conflict would be eternal and could result in no victory (in the long-term anyhow), so on that point, I would agree. Asmodues won the Reckoning by simply playing the other Arch-Devils against one another, and the fact that the Dark Eight were in his corner all along. I doubt he really had to intiate the reckoning, but I can imagine he had "bigger" plans. |
| ShadezofDis04-24-07, 10:34 AM | Asmodues won the Reckoning by simply playing the other Arch-Devils against one another, and the fact that the Dark Eight were in his corner all along. I doubt he really had to intiate the reckoning, but I can imagine he had "bigger" plans. This is how I see it as well. I really don't like the "Asmodues is an OverGod" deal because it's . . . well, I don't like it. I FAR prefer the theory that Asmodues basically ran a military coup on the other Nobility of Hell. He went past the Dukes and made sure the Generals were on his side when he first saw the potential for the plot to unfold, once he had the Generals loyalty he nudged things would start moving. |
| Infinitum04-25-07, 06:42 AM | Considering Asmodeus is really just a giant snake....he is probably going to be much more powerful then he heals after falling through the planes.... |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr04-25-07, 08:45 AM | Considering Asmodeus is really just a giant snake....he is probably going to be much more powerful then he heals after falling through the planes.... I guess it all depends on the "history" of hell that you use in your individual campaign. It has never been a real issue that I had to deal with in any of my campaigns, but I would probably use the plotline from the 2e "Guide to Hell" too. |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-25-07, 09:12 AM | Lemme just point out that no source has ever claimed that Asmodeus is an overgod. Ever. 2e Guide to Hell assigned him the powers of a greater deity without being a deity himself, but it never said he was an overgod. Of course GtH also said a lot of bizarre things beyond that, most of which never appeared prior to it, and which have been ignored or rewritten in subsequent material (the whole 'he eats athiests regardless of alignment', the wierd Zoarastrian stuff, etc etc). |
| BrennonGoldeye04-25-07, 09:47 AM | Seems to me that the "A" we are all speaking of is a conglomeration of the "A" of Gygax, Greenwood, Cooke, and a few others. Speaking as one who remembers that "A" is not the original devil, I still hold great respect for anybody who could convince that many folk that He is.:schemes: |
| ShadezofDis04-25-07, 10:30 AM | Seems to me that the "A" we are all speaking of is a conglomeration of the "A" of Gygax, Greenwood, Cooke, and a few others. Speaking as one who remembers that "A" is not the original devil, I still hold great respect for anybody who could convince that many folk that He is.:schemes: Not me, I'm working on raming my version of the Planes down everyones throats. :teach: Just subtly :D |
| XHereticX04-27-07, 08:12 PM | Interesting... I usually put Asmodeus' victory in the Reckoning down to some point of order or loophole he knew about more than anything else really... seems more devilish that way to me. Well, the Pact Primeval does give Asmodeus ABSOLUTE control over hell. |
| Stigger04-28-07, 08:32 AM | Never seen anything about a Pact Primeval to be honest, my Planescape collection is sadly lacking a lot of stuff, and I've never gotten all that interested in the Codex books. Just don't use fiends much really... don't much care for D&D presentation of them in the first place. Too monotheistic in origin for my tastes, which I can't quite reconcile with a polytheistic pantheon system. |
| MerrikCale04-29-07, 07:49 AM | I'd say the 85 Bears could probably take him |
| ShadezofDis04-29-07, 11:06 AM | I'd say the 85 Bears could probably take him Yeah, but then you've gotta ask yourself "72 Dolphins..." Bears fan btw, I eat dolphin extra tuna ;) |
| Lady_Mhaor04-29-07, 01:16 PM | *sighs* Lions fan here and big A would never beat the hyena-headed beast and even if he, big D just be revived on the astral plane by a large cult following of crazy people |
| BrennonGoldeye04-29-07, 01:45 PM | I'd say the 85 Bears could probably take him :heehee :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-29-07, 09:29 PM | I'd say the 85 Bears could probably take him Aspect of Ditka versus Aspect of Demogorgon. Fight! ;) |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr04-30-07, 08:59 AM | y'know... the Book of vile darkness/book of exhaulted deeds list major plannar evils (no yug's tho- sorry Shem) and I have to say, the good guys can't hold a match to the demon princes & arch devils. That one super celestial dude (name forgotten cuz he's a nerf) would get b**ch slapped by DemoG! DemoG would smack him around all seven heavens & make his solar servants hold his jacket while he did it.... Where has all the celestial competition gone???:confused: |
| ShadezofDis04-30-07, 10:37 AM | *sighs* Lions fan here In other words; "Well, the Lions couldn't have taken him, but there's NO WAY Demo would lay a hand on Barry!" ;D |
| ShadezofDis04-30-07, 10:38 AM | Aspect of Ditka versus Aspect of Demogorgon. Fight! ;) I'm so confused.... I can't figure out which one is more insane! ;) |
| QuenthelsChampion04-30-07, 11:32 AM | the Lady of Pain could blink and her shadow would rip him a new..everything.. And Asmodeus could beat Demo if not in the sheer power aspect sing he himself has his own wand of uber power much like Orcus but he would also find a way to make one or both of Demos split personalities attack the other. So that he can kill him off without a hitch. and in 3.5 it isnt because the devils are generally weaker then the demons but because the demons have sheer number against a well organized army. No strategy in the world could let 1,000 take on 100,000 and win. And Orcus is supposed to be an equal of Demo, but since he was killed by Kir he lost much of his old foothold and Demo has a much larger force now. QC |
| MerrikCale05-01-07, 10:58 PM | I'm so confused.... I can't figure out which one is more insane! ;) Thats easy Ditka traded his whole draft one year for pot-headed Ricky Williams. Domogorgon would never do anything that kooky |
| Assassin_of_the_shadow05-01-07, 10:58 PM | My friends think a yuan ti fullblood would be able to kill a demogorgon. I think that a shade shadow melder would be able to kill the beast. They say yuan ti fullbloods could paralyze them with their stare and then lop off their head. I really don't believe that because I have heard that demogorgons are immune to many things like paralyzing stares and other crippling abilities. BUT shadow melders require a spot check of 60, yes that's what I said/write/type 60! By the time the demogorgon realizes the shadowmelder is above it it'll all be over, unless the demogorgon sees the shadowmelder and attacks which would require it to roll a dc of 65 because 30 of that is the armor, and the other 35 required dc is from the agility. These are ALL only opinions so no one should get offended or annoyed. :devil: + :king: -:incog: =:ghosted: |
| The_Shaman05-02-07, 07:46 AM | I'd say killing Demogorgon in his Abyss will take a whole lot more than just chopping off his head once or twice. If it only were so easy, any demon prince/archduke of hell would have died 5 times already. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-02-07, 09:52 AM | Then there is that whole "Dagon rising and eating your face" thing.;) |
| BrennonGoldeye05-02-07, 10:55 AM | y'know... the Book of vile darkness/book of exhaulted deeds list major plannar evils (no yug's tho- sorry Shem) and I have to say, the good guys can't hold a match to the demon princes & arch devils. That one super celestial dude (name forgotten cuz he's a nerf) would get b**ch slapped by DemoG! DemoG would smack him around all seven heavens & make his solar servants hold his jacket while he did it.... Where has all the celestial competition gone???:confused: Please, Demo can't even rule his own crud without the backup of Dagon. Zaphkiel would stuff Aameul's head down Hethradiah's gullet. Demon "Prince" my fuzzy white rump. Demon "Putz" is more like it. Besides, notice the 2 names of Demo. Don't they sound just a bit Celestial? Hmmmm.....:devil: |
| Stigger05-03-07, 02:02 AM | You know, that kinda reminds me, never put out a rule that only truly man made items can kill those things... I did that years and years ago and had a bizarre incident with an alchemical version of plastic being used to make wiffle-ball bats that were used for a fiend hunting expedition... don't even get me started with the easter grass incidents... was really amusing though watching some of the antics my players came up with though, even if it was a throwaway campaign after that point. :D |
| StarDrifter05-05-07, 01:47 AM | I don't own any of the fiendish codeces yet, so I'll go by the BoVD, and have a quick look at exalted deeds whle I'm at it. Check out Morwell, Queen of Stars, she's pretty hardcore. nail both heads with insanity ray and watch demogorgon eat himself, DC 43 is not a guaranteed will save for the BoVD version, and that is also the DC to not go permanently blind from looking at her. Neither is the DC 45 save or die. Add the 20 caster levels of sorcerer, the spell like abilities and the other six rays (which in a full attack can change between them between attacks), and the fact that one of her forms is incorporeal, this lady is not to be taken lightly. |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr05-06-07, 09:46 AM | you forget DemoG's DUAL ACTIONS.. that by far, is his winning ticket against those goodie-goodies... |
| Stigger05-06-07, 01:38 PM | Except for that whole being insane thing... |
| Outlaw888805-08-07, 07:46 AM | So where can I find good stats on demogorgon thats someone made I thought he was kind of weak in the BOVD...maybe I'm wrong he should have at lest 1000hp I think, and like...+60 attack plus it says that "in terms of physical and magical might, few on any plane could beat demogorgon" but he really doesn't have that many spell like abilities...he should have way more magic power |
| Stigger05-08-07, 09:19 AM | I think those stats are meant to be used for non-epic campaigns. Most of the stats they toss out for those sorts of beings are hopelessly gimped once you start taking epic levels into account though. |
| Dark_beebles05-18-07, 04:54 AM | Ioulum could do it. Dont really want to go into reasons why and how, but what he is, who he is, and what he can do and what his level and HD are...explain most every reason why. Why would he want to? is beyond me...but he could do it. |
| Outlaw888805-20-07, 11:44 PM | Ha, Demogorgon would destroy Ioulaum No contest |
| Dark_beebles05-21-07, 04:37 AM | Ha, Demogorgon would destroy Ioulaum No contest :rofl: :heehee |
| Outlaw888805-21-07, 02:16 PM | Demogorgon would slap around Ioulum like the little biatch that he is |
| ORC_Paradox05-27-07, 06:49 AM | That's easy. A Gorgon could, because a Gorgon is the final release of the monster, and a Demogorgon is just a demo. Just a few levels, really. No real functionality. |
| ShadezofDis05-27-07, 08:43 PM | That's easy. A Gorgon could, because a Gorgon is the final release of the monster, and a Demogorgon is just a demo. Just a few levels, really. No real functionality. I have to disagree. See, I think they lost all the feeling when the mixed the demo down. You lose that real "raw" feeling and it just doesn't hit you like it used too. :rimshot: |
| XHereticX05-28-07, 04:22 PM | Iounum dosen't stand a hell of a chance vs demo inside his own realm. Outside on the material plane, he stands a chance, but not a very good one. |
| MerrikCale05-28-07, 11:36 PM | Vegas odds are 3-2 for Demo |