Spirit Folk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spirit Folk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Shaman
07-20-07, 11:00 AM Does anyone know if the Spirit Folk race from Unapproachable East counts as a humanoid, fey, or something else entirely? I wanted to play a SF bard in a new campaign, and I wonder what I could morph into with ye olde Alter Self.
Andyr
07-20-07, 12:56 PM The book doesn't say, but I'd go with Humanoid. If they were something else (e.g. Fey or Outsider) then that'd give them immunity to stuff like Charm Person, which would make them more powerful (plus if such was intented I imagine it'd have been mentioned in the description).
Valgard
07-20-07, 01:17 PM Unapproachable East page 71:

Spirit Folk
Medium-Size Humanoid (Spirit) War1
Hit Dice:...
The_Shaman
07-20-07, 01:48 PM Ah, okay. I thought so, given their being eligible for the otherworldly feat, but I could yet hope. BTW, is the otherworldly feat worth it, in your opinion?
Valgard
07-23-07, 11:44 AM is the otherworldly feat worth it, in your opinion?
Well, you become an outsider, that makes you immune to those lesser spells that target humanoids, that's quite useful... Do spirit people have Darkvision? if not, then you have another reason to take the Otherworldly feat.
Fabius Maximus
07-23-07, 11:55 AM OTOH, as an Outsider, you're vulnerable to spells like Banishment.
The_Shaman
07-24-07, 06:33 AM It makes you a native outsider, so it should be ok. As for darkvision, no, SF have only LLV.
Fabius Maximus
07-24-07, 08:16 AM Being a native outsider only means that a banishment or similar spell places you somewhere else on your home prime material world. At random.
Valgard
07-24-07, 08:34 AM The banishment spell only affects extraplanar creatures, i.e. creatures with the extraplanar subtype regardless of type. It does not affect outsiders or any other specific creature type. If you are a humanoid (human) in the Abyss and you target a banishment to a balor, he stands there laughing at you and if he then targets you with another banishment, you are sent back to the prime.
Fabius Maximus
07-24-07, 12:08 PM The banishment spell only affects extraplanar creatures, i.e. creatures with the extraplanar subtype regardless of type. It does not affect outsiders or any other specific creature type. If you are a humanoid (human) in the Abyss and you target a banishment to a balor, he stands there laughing at you and if he then targets you with another banishment, you are sent back to the prime.
Well, yes, the spell descriptions of Dismissal and Banishment mention extraplanar creatures.
But native oustiders are still outsiders. Therefore, part of their essence still is extraplanar, so they are affected by said spells, only not with the usual effect.
The_Shaman
07-24-07, 12:49 PM Wait, I think they are only extraplanar when not on their home plane, just as the Star Elves are extraplanar on Toril. The extraplanar subcategory was not related to your type last time I checked.
Fabius Maximus
07-24-07, 05:34 PM Well, the spell descriptions don't mention the Extraplanar subtype. They just talk about extraplanar creatures.

I'm trying to find the ruling about this. I know there is one, but I'm out of luck finding it for now.
Valgard
07-25-07, 06:23 AM The spell mentions, indeed, "extraplanar creatures" and in my sourcebooks, the only rule that makes a creature an extraplanar creature is the 'extraplanar' subtype. Outsiders are not mentioned to be naturally extraplanar.

If you make the assumption that the spell targets outsiders, then elementals and fey should also be affected by this (to the inner planes and faerie, respectively). The rules are like instructions, they have to be so clear to avoid these confusions and not leave anything to free interpretation. If the original idea of the author was to make outsiders be affected, the descriptive text should be written as "extraplanar creatures and outsiders" specifically.
Fabius Maximus
07-25-07, 06:56 AM The spell mentions, indeed, "extraplanar creatures" and in my sourcebooks, the only rule that makes a creature an extraplanar creature is the 'extraplanar' subtype. Outsiders are not mentioned to be naturally extraplanar.

If you make the assumption that the spell targets outsiders, then elementals and fey should also be affected by this (to the inner planes and faerie, respectively). The rules are like instructions, they have to be so clear to avoid these confusions and not leave anything to free interpretation. If the original idea of the author was to make outsiders be affected, the descriptive text should be written as "extraplanar creatures and outsiders" specifically.
Wait!

You mean that fey and elementals are not affected by these spells? Despite the fact that they gain the extraplanar template when on the material plane?

The rules are obviously not clear here.
bobiuszzz
07-25-07, 11:38 AM The rules are quit clear, just check the discription in the MM. Most fey (like nymphs, pixies, dryads) are native to the prime material plane and therefor not subject to this spells. Elementals have the extraplanar subtype and are subject to these spells.
Fabius Maximus
07-25-07, 04:01 PM Yeah, but fey from the plane of Faerie do get the extraplanar subtype when on the Materiel. That's what I meant.
The_Shaman
07-25-07, 05:38 PM Ok, let's check it. Banishment is specifically stated to target extraplanar creatures, regardless of their type. Extraplanar, as the link in SRD provides, means: "A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. "

Hence, Banishment can not, by definition, target an outsider on its home plane. Likewise, it works against a creature of any kind, regardless of type, on a plane it is not native to. Hence, an fey or outsider that is from Faerun and has it as a native plane is immune to banishment while on Faerun.
Fabius Maximus
07-25-07, 06:20 PM Okay, I think I found the relevant rule. Page 18 of the FRCS states that "spells and effects that target extraplanar creatures may effect planetouched characters". A few lines further it says that spells that send the character to their homeplane (i.e. Dismissal) do not work, but Banishment does, because it doesn't say that the affected character has to return to it's home plane.

And if you look at page 191 of the PGtF, it says under Lesser Planetouched that the lesser versions get the Humanoid (Planetouched) type and are affected by spells like Charm Person and Banishment.

So, according to this, Dismissal doesn't work, but Banishment sends the creature away.
Borris
07-26-07, 01:00 AM I'd like to point that the FRCS waswritten back in 3.0, when the wording of spells like dismissal and banishment was slightly different. Regarding the PGtF, tough, I blame that on the game disigners not bothering to check the rules when writing the lessr planetouched races. Unless you want to treat the (planetouched) subtype like the (extraplanar) subtype for the purpose of planar banishment. It would have been nice to make things clearer about that new subtype.
Valgard
07-26-07, 07:18 AM Wait!

You mean that fey and elementals are not affected by these spells? Despite the fact that they gain the extraplanar template when on the material plane?

The rules are obviously not clear here.
I'm sorry, I meant that elementals and fey are not inherently affected... of course, extraplanar elementals and fey are affected as normal.

I'd like to point that the FRCS waswritten back in 3.0, when the wording of spells like dismissal and banishment was slightly different. Regarding the PGtF, tough, I blame that on the game disigners not bothering to check the rules when writing the lessr planetouched races. Unless you want to treat the (planetouched) subtype like the (extraplanar) subtype for the purpose of planar banishment. It would have been nice to make things clearer about that new subtype.

Beware with the 3rd to 3.5 edition changes... in 3rd there wasn't the extraplanar subtype. The new rules refer to extraplanar creatures, not outsiders or anything in that way such as elementals or fey.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Shaman 07-20-07, 11:00 AM	Does anyone know if the Spirit Folk race from Unapproachable East counts as a humanoid, fey, or something else entirely? I wanted to play a SF bard in a new campaign, and I wonder what I could morph into with ye olde Alter Self.
Andyr 07-20-07, 12:56 PM	The book doesn't say, but I'd go with Humanoid. If they were something else (e.g. Fey or Outsider) then that'd give them immunity to stuff like Charm Person, which would make them more powerful (plus if such was intented I imagine it'd have been mentioned in the description).
Valgard 07-20-07, 01:17 PM	Unapproachable East page 71: Spirit Folk Medium-Size Humanoid (Spirit) War1 Hit Dice:...
The_Shaman 07-20-07, 01:48 PM	Ah, okay. I thought so, given their being eligible for the otherworldly feat, but I could yet hope. BTW, is the otherworldly feat worth it, in your opinion?
Valgard 07-23-07, 11:44 AM	is the otherworldly feat worth it, in your opinion? Well, you become an outsider, that makes you immune to those lesser spells that target humanoids, that's quite useful... Do spirit people have Darkvision? if not, then you have another reason to take the Otherworldly feat.
Fabius Maximus 07-23-07, 11:55 AM	OTOH, as an Outsider, you're vulnerable to spells like Banishment.
The_Shaman 07-24-07, 06:33 AM	It makes you a native outsider, so it should be ok. As for darkvision, no, SF have only LLV.
Fabius Maximus 07-24-07, 08:16 AM	Being a native outsider only means that a banishment or similar spell places you somewhere else on your home prime material world. At random.
Valgard 07-24-07, 08:34 AM	The banishment spell only affects extraplanar creatures, i.e. creatures with the extraplanar subtype regardless of type. It does not affect outsiders or any other specific creature type. If you are a humanoid (human) in the Abyss and you target a banishment to a balor, he stands there laughing at you and if he then targets you with another banishment, you are sent back to the prime.
Fabius Maximus 07-24-07, 12:08 PM	The banishment spell only affects extraplanar creatures, i.e. creatures with the extraplanar subtype regardless of type. It does not affect outsiders or any other specific creature type. If you are a humanoid (human) in the Abyss and you target a banishment to a balor, he stands there laughing at you and if he then targets you with another banishment, you are sent back to the prime. Well, yes, the spell descriptions of Dismissal and Banishment mention extraplanar creatures. But native oustiders are still outsiders. Therefore, part of their essence still is extraplanar, so they are affected by said spells, only not with the usual effect.
The_Shaman 07-24-07, 12:49 PM	Wait, I think they are only extraplanar when not on their home plane, just as the Star Elves are extraplanar on Toril. The extraplanar subcategory was not related to your type last time I checked.
Fabius Maximus 07-24-07, 05:34 PM	Well, the spell descriptions don't mention the Extraplanar subtype. They just talk about extraplanar creatures. I'm trying to find the ruling about this. I know there is one, but I'm out of luck finding it for now.
Valgard 07-25-07, 06:23 AM	The spell mentions, indeed, "extraplanar creatures" and in my sourcebooks, the only rule that makes a creature an extraplanar creature is the 'extraplanar' subtype. Outsiders are not mentioned to be naturally extraplanar. If you make the assumption that the spell targets outsiders, then elementals and fey should also be affected by this (to the inner planes and faerie, respectively). The rules are like instructions, they have to be so clear to avoid these confusions and not leave anything to free interpretation. If the original idea of the author was to make outsiders be affected, the descriptive text should be written as "extraplanar creatures and outsiders" specifically.
Fabius Maximus 07-25-07, 06:56 AM	The spell mentions, indeed, "extraplanar creatures" and in my sourcebooks, the only rule that makes a creature an extraplanar creature is the 'extraplanar' subtype. Outsiders are not mentioned to be naturally extraplanar. If you make the assumption that the spell targets outsiders, then elementals and fey should also be affected by this (to the inner planes and faerie, respectively). The rules are like instructions, they have to be so clear to avoid these confusions and not leave anything to free interpretation. If the original idea of the author was to make outsiders be affected, the descriptive text should be written as "extraplanar creatures and outsiders" specifically. Wait! You mean that fey and elementals are not affected by these spells? Despite the fact that they gain the extraplanar template when on the material plane? The rules are obviously not clear here.
bobiuszzz 07-25-07, 11:38 AM	The rules are quit clear, just check the discription in the MM. Most fey (like nymphs, pixies, dryads) are native to the prime material plane and therefor not subject to this spells. Elementals have the extraplanar subtype and are subject to these spells.
Fabius Maximus 07-25-07, 04:01 PM	Yeah, but fey from the plane of Faerie do get the extraplanar subtype when on the Materiel. That's what I meant.
The_Shaman 07-25-07, 05:38 PM	Ok, let's check it. Banishment is specifically stated to target extraplanar creatures, regardless of their type. Extraplanar, as the link in SRD provides, means: "A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. " Hence, Banishment can not, by definition, target an outsider on its home plane. Likewise, it works against a creature of any kind, regardless of type, on a plane it is not native to. Hence, an fey or outsider that is from Faerun and has it as a native plane is immune to banishment while on Faerun.
Fabius Maximus 07-25-07, 06:20 PM	Okay, I think I found the relevant rule. Page 18 of the FRCS states that "spells and effects that target extraplanar creatures may effect planetouched characters". A few lines further it says that spells that send the character to their homeplane (i.e. Dismissal) do not work, but Banishment does, because it doesn't say that the affected character has to return to it's home plane. And if you look at page 191 of the PGtF, it says under Lesser Planetouched that the lesser versions get the Humanoid (Planetouched) type and are affected by spells like Charm Person and Banishment. So, according to this, Dismissal doesn't work, but Banishment sends the creature away.
Borris 07-26-07, 01:00 AM	I'd like to point that the FRCS waswritten back in 3.0, when the wording of spells like dismissal and banishment was slightly different. Regarding the PGtF, tough, I blame that on the game disigners not bothering to check the rules when writing the lessr planetouched races. Unless you want to treat the (planetouched) subtype like the (extraplanar) subtype for the purpose of planar banishment. It would have been nice to make things clearer about that new subtype.
Valgard 07-26-07, 07:18 AM	Wait! You mean that fey and elementals are not affected by these spells? Despite the fact that they gain the extraplanar template when on the material plane? The rules are obviously not clear here. I'm sorry, I meant that elementals and fey are not inherently affected... of course, extraplanar elementals and fey are affected as normal. I'd like to point that the FRCS waswritten back in 3.0, when the wording of spells like dismissal and banishment was slightly different. Regarding the PGtF, tough, I blame that on the game disigners not bothering to check the rules when writing the lessr planetouched races. Unless you want to treat the (planetouched) subtype like the (extraplanar) subtype for the purpose of planar banishment. It would have been nice to make things clearer about that new subtype. Beware with the 3rd to 3.5 edition changes... in 3rd there wasn't the extraplanar subtype. The new rules refer to extraplanar creatures, not outsiders or anything in that way such as elementals or fey.