The Crusader from ToB [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Crusader from ToB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MerrikCale
06-16-07, 11:45 PM What religions do you guys like with this Crusader class? I just finally decided to grab a copy of Tome of Battle, and I like it. I was thinking about creating an order of Crusaders for Selune or other non-Paladin dieites. Any thoughts?
BadCatMan
06-17-07, 01:05 AM Going by the disciplines they have available:
Devoted Spirit - Torm
Stone Dragon - Moradin
White Raven - Red Knight

And PrCs:
Ruby Knight Vindicator - Kelemvor, Azuth, Mystra (there's nothing specific about the divine powers here, any god could suit)
MerrikCale
06-17-07, 09:38 AM correct me if I'm wrong, but don't characters mix and match disciplines. I apologize ahead of time, I just got the book last night
Dielzen
06-17-07, 10:00 AM Yes, but most ToB classes will focus on two-three discs
AllisterH
06-17-07, 11:00 AM Actually, I think F&A answered this for us.

If you remember, F&A has a listing of what made up their clergy and shamans and crusaders were possible choices. The crusader from ToB fills the slot perfectly left by the absence of the "Spell & Magic/F&A" crusader, so any class that had crusaders in F&A should have one (torm for example) and others that didn't still don't (Nobanion and Eldath for example)
Fabius Maximus
06-17-07, 12:59 PM Actually, I think F&A answered this for us.

If you remember, F&A has a listing of what made up their clergy and shamans and crusaders were possible choices. The crusader from ToB fills the slot perfectly left by the absence of the "Spell & Magic/F&A" crusader, so any class that had crusaders in F&A should have one (torm for example) and others that didn't still don't (Nobanion and Eldath for example)
I had the impression that the Favoured Soul matched the old Crusader variant.
MerrikCale
06-17-07, 01:46 PM Actually, I think F&A answered this for us.

If you remember, F&A has a listing of what made up their clergy and shamans and crusaders were possible choices. The crusader from ToB fills the slot perfectly left by the absence of the "Spell & Magic/F&A" crusader, so any class that had crusaders in F&A should have one (torm for example) and others that didn't still don't (Nobanion and Eldath for example)

not a bad thought. I'll have to dig out my old F&A and look over it
AllisterH
06-18-07, 01:37 PM I had the impression that the Favoured Soul matched the old Crusader variant.

Nah, not even close in either crunch or fluff. Really, there hasn't been a 3.x equivalent of the Sp&M crusader since the sphere system of 2E results in a vastly different class compaison that the current domain system.

In terms of fluff however, the crusader of F&A matches beautifully as a mesh between say the ToB crusader and the marshal from the miniature's HB.
Drew1369r
06-18-07, 02:34 PM which one is ToB?
Fabius Maximus
06-18-07, 07:33 PM Well, I don't like The Tome of Battle, so I'd use either the Favoured Soul or a Fighter/Cleric mix.
Drew1369r
06-18-07, 09:44 PM thanks
Diffan
06-19-07, 02:19 AM I could see crusaders mostly following the Triad (Torm, Tyr, Illmater) but I'm sure there is also crusaders for other Faiths as well. I'd expect to see them following Helm, The Red Knight, Bane, Lathander, and the more militant type Deities. Selune probably has some zealot type Crusaders, as you said MerrikCale, and possibly be a better choice than paladins of that deity because of her alignment. I'm sure the author of the Class Chronicles, Eytan Bernstein, might have some idea of where Crusaders, Sword Sages, and Warblades might fit into the FR setting. He does a very good job involving the varying non-PHB classes into the history and lore.

-Diffan
AllisterH
06-19-07, 08:24 AM Well, I don't like The Tome of Battle, so I'd use either the Favoured Soul or a Fighter/Cleric mix.

If not a crusader from ToB, then a marshal from the miniatures HB is still a better choice.

As for the Favoured Soul, I got the impression from the article by Eytan that they were relatively rare. For most deities, the number of FS they have probably could be counted on one hand and in fact I don't think there is _ANY_ deity in the Realms that would've more than 10.

Matching the F&A clergy to 3.x
The Specialty Priest, the most obvious solution is to make it a prestige class but it would get VERY tiresome and hard to make each one unique. The loss of the sphere system really, really hurts this concept.

The Shaman is easily copied by the shaman class from OA. In terms of both fluff AND crunch, they're almost perfect.

Crusader sas I mentioned before, would be some combination of marshalls/crusader. True, no spells, but the fluff and the intent behind the original F&A crusader is best matched by these two non-spellcasting classes.

Mystic - Ok, this one I have no clue as to what base class is best....Closest I can think of is the Archivist since that class also is more of a scholarly/introspective class than the base cleric class.
Fabius Maximus
06-19-07, 11:03 AM As for the Favoured Soul, I got the impression from the article by Eytan that they were relatively rare. For most deities, the number of FS they have probably could be counted on one hand and in fact I don't think there is _ANY_ deity in the Realms that would've more than 10.
The Favoured Soul needs a major facelift anyway. Weapon Focus and Specialization hint at a martial intent. The spellcasting is too strong compared to the Sorcerer, and let's not speak about three good saves.
Changing the background is easy, once you started.

Matching the F&A clergy to 3.x
The Specialty Priest, the most obvious solution is to make it a prestige class but it would get VERY tiresome and hard to make each one unique. The loss of the sphere system really, really hurts this concept.Substitution levels.

The Shaman is easily copied by the shaman class from OA. In terms of both fluff AND crunch, they're almost perfect.

Not quite. I think the Spirit Shaman is better. OA's Shaman gets unarmed combat'n stuff.

Mystic - Ok, this one I have no clue as to what base class is best....Closest I can think of is the Archivist since that class also is more of a scholarly/introspective class than the base cleric class.
Dragonlance has a Mystic base class. It's a spontaneous caster like the sorcerer with acces to one domain. Alternativly take the Shaman class from OA. Fits the Mystic better than the 2 ed. Shaman

Another way of rearranging the divine casters is substituting the Cleric with the Archivist, as Zanan proposed in another thread. Take out Dark Knowledge and maybe lower the skill points. Add in Domains (one or two) and Turning.

Combine Cleric and Favoured Soul for the Crusader. Weaker spellcasting (Bard or Battle Sorcerer Progression). Weapon proficiency progression as FS, Armor prof as Cleric. Access to cleric, paladin, blackguard and (maybe) ranger spells.
EytanBernstein
06-20-07, 05:50 AM If not a crusader from ToB, then a marshal from the miniatures HB is still a better choice.

As for the Favoured Soul, I got the impression from the article by Eytan that they were relatively rare. For most deities, the number of FS they have probably could be counted on one hand and in fact I don't think there is _ANY_ deity in the Realms that would've more than 10.

Matching the F&A clergy to 3.x
The Specialty Priest, the most obvious solution is to make it a prestige class but it would get VERY tiresome and hard to make each one unique. The loss of the sphere system really, really hurts this concept.

The Shaman is easily copied by the shaman class from OA. In terms of both fluff AND crunch, they're almost perfect.

Crusader sas I mentioned before, would be some combination of marshalls/crusader. True, no spells, but the fluff and the intent behind the original F&A crusader is best matched by these two non-spellcasting classes.

Mystic - Ok, this one I have no clue as to what base class is best....Closest I can think of is the Archivist since that class also is more of a scholarly/introspective class than the base cleric class.

Indeed, favored souls are quite rare in the Realms.
MerrikCale
06-20-07, 11:16 PM Indeed, favored souls are quite rare in the Realms.

and presumably, some deities would not "allow" favored souls
captaincarot
06-21-07, 02:34 AM dunno why but when i sa TOB, i thoiught Throne Of Bhaal.

so i can understand the confusion evidenced in this thread.
EytanBernstein
06-21-07, 05:47 AM and presumably, some deities would not "allow" favored souls

Sure. Some deities simply aren't invested enough in the mortal world to make favored souls.
MerrikCale
08-23-07, 08:13 PM how long before this is part of the Class Chronicles?
EytanBernstein
08-24-07, 12:01 AM how long before this is part of the Class Chronicles?

You'd have to ask the web guys. It's been submitted, so it's probably in some stage of editing.
MerrikCale
08-24-07, 08:45 PM You'd have to ask the web guys. It's been submitted, so it's probably in some stage of editing.

darn those web guys
StAbrevas
08-26-07, 04:09 AM I'm actually playing a gestalt paladin/crusader (justiciar of Tyr prestige class) of the Knights of Holy Judgment, and we're going through City of the Spider Queen. Crusader is working very well with the Tyrran dogma; as far as other deities go, I could see Torm, Helm, the Red Knight, and possibly Bane for evil crusaders.

Oh, and by the way, hi~ First post here. :D
Zanan
08-26-07, 09:07 AM In terms of fluff however, the crusader of F&A matches beautifully as a mesh between say the ToB crusader and the marshal from the miniature's HB.

I'm sorry, but the crusader in ToB is IMHO a crusader in nothing but name, especially if compared to the F&A one. then again, it all comes down to how people see "their" crusaders.
MerrikCale
08-26-07, 10:51 AM I'm sorry, but the crusader in ToB is IMHO a crusader in nothing but name, especially if compared to the F&A one. then again, it all comes down to how people see "their" crusaders.

I agree. I would have loved a FR-specific base class for a holy warrior/crusader. Just like I would have loved a base class bladesinger

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MerrikCale 06-16-07, 11:45 PM	What religions do you guys like with this Crusader class? I just finally decided to grab a copy of Tome of Battle, and I like it. I was thinking about creating an order of Crusaders for Selune or other non-Paladin dieites. Any thoughts?
BadCatMan 06-17-07, 01:05 AM	Going by the disciplines they have available: Devoted Spirit - Torm Stone Dragon - Moradin White Raven - Red Knight And PrCs: Ruby Knight Vindicator - Kelemvor, Azuth, Mystra (there's nothing specific about the divine powers here, any god could suit)
MerrikCale 06-17-07, 09:38 AM	correct me if I'm wrong, but don't characters mix and match disciplines. I apologize ahead of time, I just got the book last night
Dielzen 06-17-07, 10:00 AM	Yes, but most ToB classes will focus on two-three discs
AllisterH 06-17-07, 11:00 AM	Actually, I think F&A answered this for us. If you remember, F&A has a listing of what made up their clergy and shamans and crusaders were possible choices. The crusader from ToB fills the slot perfectly left by the absence of the "Spell & Magic/F&A" crusader, so any class that had crusaders in F&A should have one (torm for example) and others that didn't still don't (Nobanion and Eldath for example)
Fabius Maximus 06-17-07, 12:59 PM	Actually, I think F&A answered this for us. If you remember, F&A has a listing of what made up their clergy and shamans and crusaders were possible choices. The crusader from ToB fills the slot perfectly left by the absence of the "Spell & Magic/F&A" crusader, so any class that had crusaders in F&A should have one (torm for example) and others that didn't still don't (Nobanion and Eldath for example) I had the impression that the Favoured Soul matched the old Crusader variant.
MerrikCale 06-17-07, 01:46 PM	Actually, I think F&A answered this for us. If you remember, F&A has a listing of what made up their clergy and shamans and crusaders were possible choices. The crusader from ToB fills the slot perfectly left by the absence of the "Spell & Magic/F&A" crusader, so any class that had crusaders in F&A should have one (torm for example) and others that didn't still don't (Nobanion and Eldath for example) not a bad thought. I'll have to dig out my old F&A and look over it
AllisterH 06-18-07, 01:37 PM	I had the impression that the Favoured Soul matched the old Crusader variant. Nah, not even close in either crunch or fluff. Really, there hasn't been a 3.x equivalent of the Sp&M crusader since the sphere system of 2E results in a vastly different class compaison that the current domain system. In terms of fluff however, the crusader of F&A matches beautifully as a mesh between say the ToB crusader and the marshal from the miniature's HB.
Drew1369r 06-18-07, 02:34 PM	which one is ToB?
Fabius Maximus 06-18-07, 07:33 PM	Well, I don't like The Tome of Battle, so I'd use either the Favoured Soul or a Fighter/Cleric mix.
Drew1369r 06-18-07, 09:44 PM	thanks
Diffan 06-19-07, 02:19 AM	I could see crusaders mostly following the Triad (Torm, Tyr, Illmater) but I'm sure there is also crusaders for other Faiths as well. I'd expect to see them following Helm, The Red Knight, Bane, Lathander, and the more militant type Deities. Selune probably has some zealot type Crusaders, as you said MerrikCale, and possibly be a better choice than paladins of that deity because of her alignment. I'm sure the author of the Class Chronicles, Eytan Bernstein, might have some idea of where Crusaders, Sword Sages, and Warblades might fit into the FR setting. He does a very good job involving the varying non-PHB classes into the history and lore. -Diffan
AllisterH 06-19-07, 08:24 AM	Well, I don't like The Tome of Battle, so I'd use either the Favoured Soul or a Fighter/Cleric mix. If not a crusader from ToB, then a marshal from the miniatures HB is still a better choice. As for the Favoured Soul, I got the impression from the article by Eytan that they were relatively rare. For most deities, the number of FS they have probably could be counted on one hand and in fact I don't think there is _ANY_ deity in the Realms that would've more than 10. Matching the F&A clergy to 3.x The Specialty Priest, the most obvious solution is to make it a prestige class but it would get VERY tiresome and hard to make each one unique. The loss of the sphere system really, really hurts this concept. The Shaman is easily copied by the shaman class from OA. In terms of both fluff AND crunch, they're almost perfect. Crusader sas I mentioned before, would be some combination of marshalls/crusader. True, no spells, but the fluff and the intent behind the original F&A crusader is best matched by these two non-spellcasting classes. Mystic - Ok, this one I have no clue as to what base class is best....Closest I can think of is the Archivist since that class also is more of a scholarly/introspective class than the base cleric class.
Fabius Maximus 06-19-07, 11:03 AM	As for the Favoured Soul, I got the impression from the article by Eytan that they were relatively rare. For most deities, the number of FS they have probably could be counted on one hand and in fact I don't think there is _ANY_ deity in the Realms that would've more than 10. The Favoured Soul needs a major facelift anyway. Weapon Focus and Specialization hint at a martial intent. The spellcasting is too strong compared to the Sorcerer, and let's not speak about three good saves. Changing the background is easy, once you started. Matching the F&A clergy to 3.x The Specialty Priest, the most obvious solution is to make it a prestige class but it would get VERY tiresome and hard to make each one unique. The loss of the sphere system really, really hurts this concept.Substitution levels. The Shaman is easily copied by the shaman class from OA. In terms of both fluff AND crunch, they're almost perfect. Not quite. I think the Spirit Shaman is better. OA's Shaman gets unarmed combat'n stuff. Mystic - Ok, this one I have no clue as to what base class is best....Closest I can think of is the Archivist since that class also is more of a scholarly/introspective class than the base cleric class. Dragonlance has a Mystic base class. It's a spontaneous caster like the sorcerer with acces to one domain. Alternativly take the Shaman class from OA. Fits the Mystic better than the 2 ed. Shaman Another way of rearranging the divine casters is substituting the Cleric with the Archivist, as Zanan proposed in another thread. Take out Dark Knowledge and maybe lower the skill points. Add in Domains (one or two) and Turning. Combine Cleric and Favoured Soul for the Crusader. Weaker spellcasting (Bard or Battle Sorcerer Progression). Weapon proficiency progression as FS, Armor prof as Cleric. Access to cleric, paladin, blackguard and (maybe) ranger spells.
EytanBernstein 06-20-07, 05:50 AM	If not a crusader from ToB, then a marshal from the miniatures HB is still a better choice. As for the Favoured Soul, I got the impression from the article by Eytan that they were relatively rare. For most deities, the number of FS they have probably could be counted on one hand and in fact I don't think there is _ANY_ deity in the Realms that would've more than 10. Matching the F&A clergy to 3.x The Specialty Priest, the most obvious solution is to make it a prestige class but it would get VERY tiresome and hard to make each one unique. The loss of the sphere system really, really hurts this concept. The Shaman is easily copied by the shaman class from OA. In terms of both fluff AND crunch, they're almost perfect. Crusader sas I mentioned before, would be some combination of marshalls/crusader. True, no spells, but the fluff and the intent behind the original F&A crusader is best matched by these two non-spellcasting classes. Mystic - Ok, this one I have no clue as to what base class is best....Closest I can think of is the Archivist since that class also is more of a scholarly/introspective class than the base cleric class. Indeed, favored souls are quite rare in the Realms.
MerrikCale 06-20-07, 11:16 PM	Indeed, favored souls are quite rare in the Realms. and presumably, some deities would not "allow" favored souls
captaincarot 06-21-07, 02:34 AM	dunno why but when i sa TOB, i thoiught Throne Of Bhaal. so i can understand the confusion evidenced in this thread.
EytanBernstein 06-21-07, 05:47 AM	and presumably, some deities would not "allow" favored souls Sure. Some deities simply aren't invested enough in the mortal world to make favored souls.
MerrikCale 08-23-07, 08:13 PM	how long before this is part of the Class Chronicles?
EytanBernstein 08-24-07, 12:01 AM	how long before this is part of the Class Chronicles? You'd have to ask the web guys. It's been submitted, so it's probably in some stage of editing.
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 08:45 PM	You'd have to ask the web guys. It's been submitted, so it's probably in some stage of editing. darn those web guys
StAbrevas 08-26-07, 04:09 AM	I'm actually playing a gestalt paladin/crusader (justiciar of Tyr prestige class) of the Knights of Holy Judgment, and we're going through City of the Spider Queen. Crusader is working very well with the Tyrran dogma; as far as other deities go, I could see Torm, Helm, the Red Knight, and possibly Bane for evil crusaders. Oh, and by the way, hi~ First post here. :D
Zanan 08-26-07, 09:07 AM	In terms of fluff however, the crusader of F&A matches beautifully as a mesh between say the ToB crusader and the marshal from the miniature's HB. I'm sorry, but the crusader in ToB is IMHO a crusader in nothing but name, especially if compared to the F&A one. then again, it all comes down to how people see "their" crusaders.
MerrikCale 08-26-07, 10:51 AM	I'm sorry, but the crusader in ToB is IMHO a crusader in nothing but name, especially if compared to the F&A one. then again, it all comes down to how people see "their" crusaders. I agree. I would have loved a FR-specific base class for a holy warrior/crusader. Just like I would have loved a base class bladesinger