Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Selvarin 05-19-07, 03:39 AM	Anyone read page 220 of the new Drow of the Underdark relating to half-drow PCs in the Forgotten Realms? Fascinating. The highlights of which were: 1) Drow only produce half-drow with humans. They don't have offspring with other races. (No great surprise I suppose.) 2) Half-drow have low-light vision and not darkvision. This was mentioned as being errata from Races of Faerun. Errata? Ahhh. I guess I missed the meeting wherein they decided to water down the flavor of the half-drow. I may be on opposite sides of the fence when it comes to certain elvven/drow matters but where is the logic of giving half-drow only low-light vision? Last I checked, the typical half-elf inherited low-light vision from their elf parent. Giving a half-drow 60' darkvision (as opposed to 120' range for a full-blood) was more realistic and reasonable.
Zanan 05-19-07, 04:22 AM	Well, that entry is meant to be errata for the Races of Faerūn version. I don't see a point in changing the FRCS/RoF ruling about darkvision either. Normal half-elves receive their elven kin's full low-light vision and handing half-drow 60-feet darkvision (no game relevance, just look at the tougher dwarves) would simply follow suit. My, I even had 30-feet darkvision for my half-half-drow (human meets half-drow) near the beginning of 3E without much problem. Now you get the darkvision and other stuff via the Drow Legacy (also in the book) feat, which has to be a Regional feat for the Realms - i.e. most likely those half-drow predominantly living in the Underdark. Yet, if you have that, there should also be an option for half-drow on the surface, i.e. to balance their obvious disadvantage for looking like a normal drow to the common populace of Faerūn.
kave99 05-20-07, 01:16 AM	Well, that entry is meant to be errata for the Races of Faerūn version. I don't see a point in changing the FRCS/RoF ruling about darkvision either. this was just about the first thing I read in the book and I was baffled by it !!! makes no sense at all and has no maniacal reason that I can think of, being 1/2 half drow has rather unpleasant side effects as it is and it's not like the half elf is overpowered in the first place. Now you get the darkvision and other stuff via the Drow Legacy (also in the book) feat, which has to be a Regional feat for the Realms - i.e. most likely those half-drow predominantly living in the Underdark. Yet, if you have that, there should also be an option for half-drow on the surface, i.e. to balance their obvious disadvantage for looking like a normal drow to the common populace of Faerūn. this feat makes little sense to me. it gives booth inherited and cultural ability's and as written is vastly over powered giving the power of at lest 3 feats for the cost 1. if you have any build in mind that dose not involve emulating a full drow you have just used your one and only first level feat to get darkvision {something i feel is intrinsic to almost all 1/2 drow characters) .to top it off it's a Regional feat but no regions are given! this hole side bar just confirms that WotC wishes to marginals and pigeon hole the descendent's of "Evil" races, much like the assassin of after first ed. I have been enraged repeatably by the lack of love WotC has heaped on the 1/2 elf and 1/2 orc and this is just one more example.
Selvarin 05-20-07, 04:37 PM	We have feats up the yin-yang, and the regional requirement has been misapplied in the past (e.g., Daylight Adaptation). As you've said it doesn't mean it has to apply in one's campaign so just rule-zeroing is better. Still I have to wonder sometimes about the design decisions being made. The Drow Legacy feat is interesting, I could see it as a ceremonial feat required of some societies in order to accord half-drow an equal ranking. Not sure if I'd take it, though. I like having half-drow who are close but not quite the same. Yet it does simplify a few things.
Zanan 05-20-07, 06:35 PM	Matter of fact, the Drow Legacy feat gives all things drow bar the ability adjustment, SR and the free rapier feat. Turn that on its head and ask yourself, if you find another feat that hands out this much in one go ...
Zireael 05-21-07, 07:11 AM	Eh, the half-drow from FRCS was more reasonable than that one :( :( and the feat is overpowered!:)
Dxzauvrinn 05-21-07, 02:25 PM	If a half-drow takes the drow legacy feat (which if in my game any player ever wants to use they'll have to be from the Underdark. How else could you justify them having light blindness?) and the drow eyes feat(which gives half-drow 120 feet darkvision like full drow) from RoF, they'd be pretty powerful for not having a level adjustment, especially since they'd be able to access the drow racial feats presented in DotU. Plus, being half-bloods allows them to benefit from drow, human and elven only items and multi-class freely. Still though, role playing-wise, a half-drow in the underdark couldn't aspire to be more than a merchant or a mercenary if they grow up in a drow city. They may fair better in a Vhaeraun dominated city, but probably not by much. I'd imagine that being a half-drow in the underdark is a miserable existance. Full-blooded drow would likely constantly abuse them verbally and physically (it'd be amazing if they survived to adulthood) and treat them only a step above a slave if they even let a half-drow live when it was born. Hmm...I wonder what an albino half-drow would look like? Possibly just a plain half-elf with pale hair?
Lord_Steve 05-21-07, 02:31 PM	I dont think there are even albino Drow.
Fillow 05-21-07, 02:44 PM	while you're talking about half-drows, could you tell me where I could find informatiosn about crinties please ? Excepting from Shinig South and Kings & Councelors Trilogy (where it is just named without any piece of information !). I also found the History of the Crinti on the Web, by By Elaine Cunningham. Something else ?
Zanan 05-21-07, 03:03 PM	The Shining South is the sourcebook that has the most information on them. There might be some additional or older info in the namesake of AD&D times, as well as in Demihumans of the Realms , also an AD&D book. Not much else, I'm afraid.
Fillow 05-21-07, 03:38 PM	Thanks a lot Zanan. I found two pages in DotR ! I thought to this book long time ago but I found nothing ! Today, Tymora was with me ! In fact, they are called "crintri" in this book !
Straploknight 05-21-07, 10:31 PM	I dont think there are even albino Drow. There are, and unoffically I can say since the early 90's
Alac Luin 05-21-07, 11:23 PM	make that offically, and sometime around 1990, 1991. (I'm not sure when the novel I have seen one mentioned came out)
Fillow 05-22-07, 01:07 AM	Does someone remember where albino drow or half-drow are talking about ?
Zanan 05-22-07, 03:55 AM	Does someone remember where albino drow or half-drow are talking about ? The only albino drow that I can think of is the leader of the Kiaransaleen drow of Maerimydra in the City of the Spider Queen campaign. You can get decent shots of her in the art gallery / wallpaper section of the main site. Other than that, the only source on them is the new Drow of the Underdark It just adds some fluff to them though, no change in rules or the like. Obviously, they look much like the average surface elf and are perfect spies for the drow and apparently often reared as somesuch.
Fillow 05-22-07, 11:55 AM	You can get decent shots of her in the art gallery / wallpaper section of the main site. Thx (is that the way you cut "Thanks" ?) Obviously, they look much like the average surface elf and are perfect spies for the drow and apparently often reared as somesuch. You're great ! That's the piece of information I was waiting for ! Thx a lot.
Alac Luin 05-22-07, 05:06 PM	The only albino drow that I can think of is the leader of the Kiaransaleen drow of Maerimydra in the City of the Spider Queen campaign. You can get decent shots of her in the art gallery / wallpaper section of the main site. Other than that, the only source on them is the new Drow of the Underdark It just adds some fluff to them though, no change in rules or the like. Obviously, they look much like the average surface elf and are perfect spies for the drow and apparently often reared as somesuch. There is another from novels, she appears in a source book, but the source book does not mention she is a drow. Possibly as to not spoil the novel. Darien, the "albino elf" that accompanied Cordell in the Maztican campaign was indeed a albino Drow. In effect, she guided Cordell's actions trying to conquer Maztica for the Drow. She fooled Cordell for 10 years as lover and confidant to achieve her goals. When Lolth came and turned the Drow into driders, Darien became a white drider. I actually feel silly spoiler blocking a novel published over 15 years ago, but :)
Fillow 05-23-07, 03:49 AM	I said above about sources where we could finfd informatiosn about crinti ! :Excepting from Shining South and Kings & Councelors Trilogy (where it is just named without any piece of information !). I made a mistake. Indeed, Crinti are just named in the Magehound but they are part of the story in The floodgate .
Zardnaar 05-23-07, 04:52 AM	There was an albino Drow in the Maztica books. Can't remember here name but she had a human lover and posed as a normal elf.
Fillow 05-23-07, 05:31 AM	There was an albino Drow in the Maztica books. Can't remember here name but she had a human lover and posed as a normal elf. Don't you although speak about Darien ? as Alac Luin did above in the spoil. And the human is Cordell albino drows are also spoken about there : http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=756915&page=3
celtic elf 05-26-07, 01:18 PM	Albino drow were mentioned in the original drow of underdark sourcebook for 2nd ed ad&d around 90/91 ish wish i still had my copy lots of nasty drow only spells ripe for conversion to3.5:weep:
Selvarin 05-28-07, 02:35 PM	Still though, role playing-wise, a half-drow in the underdark couldn't aspire to be more than a merchant or a mercenary if they grow up in a drow city. They may fair better in a Vhaeraun dominated city, but probably not by much. I'd imagine that being a half-drow in the underdark is a miserable existance. Full-blooded drow would likely constantly abuse them verbally and physically (it'd be amazing if they survived to adulthood) and treat them only a step above a slave if they even let a half-drow live when it was born. To characterize the more chaotic nature, different cities would have different uses/statuses accorded to them. The merchant and mercenary classes are a good choice but some groups may consider them at least 'half-people' and so other castes could be open to them. I'd imagine those with the Drow Legacy feat to be considered eligible for being ambassadorships or more governmental/heirarchal positions--in that case their heritage may be considered little worse than that of a commoner. Snide remarks and harder assignments but grudging respect when they do well. In others they may be used strictly for military or recreational roles. Without light blindness they make excellent spies and scouts aboveground. I'd like to think that in a Vhaeraun-dominated society they'd have an easier time of it. There's a point when cruelty for cruelty's sake goes beyond being counter-productive, from a RP standpoint it would be absolutely boring if half-drow were treated the same in every drow city. There has to be some variety, places where half-drow can own property, etc., but their testimony in a court case is worth only half of a fullblood's (thus requiring witnesses or a protective benefactor), others where half-drow are a reminder of some long-ago defeat to humans and thus captured for ritual death in front of a monument dedicated to those who died there, etc...
Straploknight 05-28-07, 02:48 PM	naw, if all drow are slain outright on the surface (the prevailing mindset of the anti-drow establishment) the reciprocal must bew true in the Underdark. :P On a more serious note Selvarin, I find your words to be a very astute assesment.
Selvarin 05-28-07, 02:57 PM	Ehh, there's always slavery. There's always slots opening up in the field of forced employment. :P Oh and thanks. Guess it all depends on when the groups meet and how far from their city. If they're on high-alert then drow bands encountered will be in the kill-first-then-animate mood. Those with conquered territories above could bubble up and cull from the human 'herds' what they wished for down below. In that case any half-drow in the vicinity might be hated more because of what they represent, and the drow would be more than happy to oblige by placing them in positions of power over the masses. Keeps them away from the drow base, busy dealing with their mess above. Change one facet and the situation shifts like quicksand.
sleyvas 05-30-07, 09:00 AM	interesting that they say they can only cross breed with humans. That's apparently not so in the realms, as there is a half-drow/half-orc in the Lady Penitent Book 1 that works for Quilue and is killed by a dracolich. Of course, perhaps that was actually a half-drow/quarter-human/quarter-orc (i.e. product of a half-orc and a drow.... or maybe a half-drow and an orc). Phillip aka Sleyvas
Zardnaar 05-30-07, 06:00 PM	interesting that they say they can only cross breed with humans. That's apparently not so in the realms, as there is a half-drow/half-orc in the Lady Penitent Book 1 that works for Quilue and is killed by a dracolich. Of course, perhaps that was actually a half-drow/quarter-human/quarter-orc (i.e. product of a half-orc and a drow.... or maybe a half-drow and an orc). Phillip aka Sleyvas Different rule used and even in that book it says magic can make a crossbreed that is biologically impossable.
Selvarin 05-30-07, 07:25 PM	interesting that they say they can only cross breed with humans. That's apparently not so in the realms, as there is a half-drow/half-orc in the Lady Penitent Book 1 that works for Quilue and is killed by a dracolich. Of course, perhaps that was actually a half-drow/quarter-human/quarter-orc (i.e. product of a half-orc and a drow.... or maybe a half-drow and an orc). Phillip aka Sleyvas Chalk it up to the liberties that authors are allowed to take, so long as it doesn't fundamentally change the Realms without some prior understanding. For game rules' sake (ignoring the FR rules on elves breeding), it's easier to say 'only humans and drow can create half-drow' than to work up a template just for those situations. But it isn't hard to build such a character with just a +1 ECL.
Shiftkitty 05-30-07, 09:20 PM	The Complete Guide to Drow, by Goodman Games has some cross breeds, called mutations: Drider (the critter we all know and love, not a cross-breed, just a curse, albeit a nasty one) Drothir (drow/surface elf, always the product of a "violent encounter" often when surface elves are taken and given as prizes to common soldiers by their commander. "Field mattresses" they would have been called in WW2.) Half-Drow (drow/human, usually the product of a violent encounter, sometimes the product of convenience, such as a high priestess and a power human wizard ally) Shatu'rug (drow/orc, product of some drow's weird fantasy, guaranteed to result from a union thanks to the orc's high fertility rate) Shur (drow/demon, nuff said) Urbam (drow/goblin, somebody huffed too much black lotus powder, offspring are cannibalistic little goblinoids who scurry around on all fours, and in my campaign are used by the drow as soccer balls, they also make handy teaching aids for torture classes. The great news is they breed true, so you'll always have an abundant supply. Get your starter kit for 12.95gp plus shipping and handling.)
Zanan 05-31-07, 07:35 AM	There are more drow variants and a different (LA+1) half-drow varierty in Plot & Poison (Green Ronin) too. As for Lady Penitent I - Half-drow/half-orcs, remember the author's freedom. You will always come up with something special every now and then ... especially in rather exotic locations like The Promenade.
Zireael 05-31-07, 03:16 PM	Cross-breed only with humans? And what's the draegloth, eh?:D :D :D :D :D
Lord Zeb 06-29-07, 11:13 PM	From the Answers thread in the Future Releases forum: - why was it felt necessary to change 1/2 drow. (see pg 220 of "drow of the underdark 3.5" sidebar "Half drow player characters") If this question is really, “Why did half-drow lose dark vision?” the answer is that they didn’t deserve to have night vision AND no light vulnerability. Didn't deserve? Half-elves don't get a lot in terms of racial abilities...is 60' darkvision such a powerful ability? Dwarves are crazy with their perks...even the poor half-orc gets darkvision. This sounds like whichever designer gamerzero talked to was backpedaling, or woke up on the wrong side of the bed. What's next? All classes drop a die in HD because Wiz/Sorc "don't deserve" a d4 HD, they really "need" a d3?
Selvarin 06-30-07, 01:28 AM	Here's what I've seen... Generally, races with 60' darkvision don't have light sensitivity to specifically 'balance' it out. Those thought of as 'Underdark races' do because their darkvision goes farther. There's some logic in that. However...a half-drow is just that: half-drow. So instead of possessing 120' darkvision they--used to--have 60' darkvision. This made sense. Switching them from 60' darkvision to 60' low-light vision makes ~absolutely~no~sense. There was no balance issue. To me it's like the fly spell being borked just because some designer decided it gave too much to players. Very poor decision. Now, even if half-drow retain the *cough* undue advantage of 60' darkvision, how much of an 'unfair advantage' is it? Considering their standard environment (the Underdark), not much at all. A full-blood drow can still see one before a half-drow has a chance, unless they take a feat or use a spell to increase their visual capability. What it smacks of is a design change for the purpose of standardization, regardless of actual logic. So now all half-elves are the same. It isn't critical but it's something among a small list of little things that personally irks me.
MarkusTay63 06-30-07, 03:15 AM	Shatu'rug (drow/orc, product of some drow's weird fantasy, guaranteed to result from a union thanks to the orc's high fertility rate)That sounds like the Austin Powers expression - "Shag-a'rug" I guess thats what the first Drow to do it said, but he was drunk at the time and was slurring his speech. "I'm gonna Shatu'rug, baby" Why is it that when I think of a Drow Austin Powers, I envision Jarlaxle. :D
Zacharia 08-09-07, 12:43 AM	I have a question, can a full blooded elf come out of a union between an elf and a drow? I know often the children between an elf and a drow can be full blooded drow too:confused:
Shiftkitty 08-09-07, 10:32 AM	According to everything I've read, drow blood trumps all. You'll either get a half-drow/half-whatever or, on very rare occassions, a full-blooded drow.
Zacharia 08-10-07, 01:26 PM	So without a doubt Drow blood beats all? if a wood elf and a drow have three kids they will all be full drow? none of the kids could happen to be a full blooded woo elf?
Fillow 08-10-07, 03:38 PM	Indeed, I think the three kids could be half-blood (half-drow 66% drow + 33% wood elf ) or half-wood-elf (66% wood elf + 33% drow)..., as gods feel it. Or they may be full drow. But this is not an exact science. With no valor comparison, have a look to what happens with dogs. It is impossible to predict what will be the colors of little dogs ! No color is sure ! but each heart is pure !
GothicDan 08-10-07, 03:41 PM	Ignore biology. When two Elves mate, the result is always either a full-blooded elf or full-blooded Drow. It's up to some debate as to whether the offspring is ALWAYs Drow, but there seems to be a precedence set in certain novels.
Shiftkitty 08-10-07, 03:58 PM	According to the stuff I've got, the kids would be either drothir (half drow, half surface elf) or full drow. There would be no full wood elf. Dark grey to black skin, black hair for the drothir, normal drow appearance if a full blood. Drothir eyes lean to blue, as I understand it.
GothicDan 08-10-07, 04:00 PM	Only in Demihuman Deities and a few novels has a tendency towards Drow breeding true been referenced (and DD mentions half-Drow rather than full-blooded Drow). I have never heard of a Drothir, but I don't really read novels, especially ones related to Drow.
Shiftkitty 08-10-07, 10:05 PM	I'm sorry. "Drothir" is the phrase used in Goodman Games "Complete Guide to the Drow" to denote a drow-surface elf halfbreed. While the info therein isn't canon, I liked the sound of 'drothir', so that's the name I use in my game for the few living drow-surface elf halfbreeds. A drow-human crossbreed is just called a half-drow. I'm looking for the source of the breeding result, but this evening was taken up with a neighborhood-wide search for a runaway kitty. Merlin is now safely back home, tracked down by a neighbor who is a hunter. Tabby cats are apparently quite crafty when it comes to eluding humans. I wonder how many ranger levels it would take to be able to find a specific cat within the bounds of a suburb?
GothicDan 08-10-07, 10:10 PM	Pft, another thing a proper mage would be better at. ;)
Shiftkitty 08-10-07, 10:22 PM	:rofl: I would have needed a "Locate Idiot" spell. I swear this cat is missing a few brain cells. I think he sold his soul to the great demon "Dorkus".