The Perfect Paladin Issue [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Perfect Paladin Issue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dolarmak
12-03-07, 02:04 AM Hey guys this is my first time here and there is a few questions I'd like to ask the experts about Paladin's in Faerun.

Now a friend of mine has a Half Orc Paladin. Which is fine and all, but he thinks that his character needs more flaws becuase he would otherwise be inhuman or too perfect.

Now the thing I've been arguing with him about this. His character (lets call him John) has losst faith in those around him. my friend says that he still believes in his god (Helm btw), but because he is a half orc he constantly gets scrutenized by the people who think him a savage. Even people in his own order.
Because of this John drinks too much, has violent tendencies and generally feels like life sucks.

Now in my opinion that is not a Paladin. First his character is Neutral Good at best, and the way he acts is totally unacceptable for the Paladin code from what i read.
I also don't think believe that his own order would have any judgement against him because he is a Paladin, he transended the barrier of savageness by becoming one.
Finally I understand that some flaws are acceptable for Paladin to have (such as being naive, headstong or stubborn), but being a violent drunk who has lost faith in people being good shouldn't be.

also reading on Paladins in the PHB it says that a Paladin cannot be trained for, you just are or you aren't.

So here are the question:
How strick is the code for Paladin's in Faerun?
What Flaws would you consider acceptable and unacceptable for a Paladin to have?
Would his caracter John be considered a Paladin with these flaws?
Would John have been chosen by Helm to become a Paladin in the first place?
Do you agree with the code of Paladins which makes them almost too perfect?
Puritan13
12-03-07, 02:31 AM Why are you concernred with his character and not your own?

It really isn't any of your business. His character and the roleplaying thereof is between him and the DM, nobody else.
Stigger
12-03-07, 04:33 AM As to how strict the paladin code is... for Helm... probably focused more on the lawful aspect than the good, given the Helm has a LN alignment, so as long as he kept up his lawfulness and at least paid some attention to the good, then I'd say it was fairly forgiving.

As to what flaws would be acceptable or unacceptable, I'd say it depended on some stuff. Given the violent drunk thing... that's kinda iffy. If he lets if interfere with his vigilance, or breaks the law engaging in it, then I'd say it was a huge problem and unacceptable for a paladin of Helm. If it doesn't, then its not a problem per se, but it could be viewed as questionable. A lot of it depends on how much control the paladin has over it. Depending on strictly the whole 'ever-vigilant' thing the local church of Helm views things I think will matter a lot. If he's never considered to be 'off-duty' then it's definitely bad.

Is he still a paladin... I'd say he was, though there was a danger of falling. If he's lost faith in 'humanity', so to speak, I'd say his reaction to it mattered more than the fact that he's lost it. If he just presumes everyone's up to no good and has the worst of motives, and keeps his eyes out but doesn't act without provocation, then I'd say that might actually be a plus with Helm and the constant vigilance, at least in some respects. If he presumes the worst and then acts on that presumption without solid evidence of wrongdoing, then I'd say that at the least he's on thin ice. Someone just being evil I'd say didn't count unless they were actively engaged in evil.

As to whether he'd have been chosen by Helm in the first place... why not? I'd see no reason for him not to have been if he lives (or lived perhaps) up to the core dogma of Helm's church.

As to paladins being too perfect... no, I'd say not at all. They're actively good, but that doesn't mean that the aren't flawed. Champions of Valor takes a good look at flawed heroes, and as I recall addresses flawed paladins. It depends on how strictly you interpret the Code more than anything else. With a more 'liberal' view of it, its not really that restricting at all, while with a more 'conservative' view it can be incredibly restrictive and nearly impossible to live up to. I usually prefer to go with a more 'moderate' view and have a paladin emphasize certain points of it, while minimizing other points that are less important to them. I find it makes paladins much more unique to take that approach with them, rather than the strict Dudley-Do-Right view of them.

Another thing I find that helps with paladins is deciding whether or not they favor their good or lawful sides, or perhaps seek to maintain a balance of the two. Like with a paladin of Sune or Lathander, I'd really stress the good over the lawful, taking it from the view that the laws of goodness and the heavens outweigh the laws of men. With Helm or Red Knight, I'd take it from almost the completely opposite view, that the adherence to law often outweighed the dictates of goodness to a certain extent, and that minor infractions against the 'good' of the individual could be tolerated if the 'good' of society was served. There are tons of different ways to look at paladins to make them extremely varied I've found, usually with just a quick look at the dogma and alignment of the faiths they serve. Hope that helped some. :)
The_Shaman
12-03-07, 04:47 AM Now the thing I've been arguing with him about this. His character (lets call him John) has losst faith in those around him. my friend says that he still believes in his god (Helm btw), but because he is a half orc he constantly gets scrutenized by the people who think him a savage. Even people in his own order.
Because of this John drinks too much, has violent tendencies and generally feels like life sucks.
...
Finally I understand that some flaws are acceptable for Paladin to have (such as being naive, headstong or stubborn), but being a violent drunk who has lost faith in people being good shouldn't be.

Not necessarily. Being miserable or drinking is not an inherently chaotic activity, but it depends on how he acts upon it. The violent tendencies can be a problem if he loses control of it and does an evil or grossly chaotic act. He's walking a fine line, but if he does the right thing for the right reasons he may as well be LG.

So here are the question:
How strick is the code for Paladin's in Faerun?
What Flaws would you consider acceptable and unacceptable for a Paladin to have?
Would his caracter John be considered a Paladin with these flaws?
Would John have been chosen by Helm to become a Paladin in the first place?
Do you agree with the code of Paladins which makes them almost too perfect?

1. I don't remember seeing any particular codes. There may be some changes dependin on the dogma - i.e. a paladins of Sune, Lathander, and Helm might have different priorities and possibly requirements, but I don't think that's spelled out somewhere
2. Technically, anything that permits him to maintain a LG alignment and avoid evil acts should be okay. Flaws are imo good as long as he can stay in control - probably a lot of paladins wrestle with disappointment, violent urges and the gods know what else. The important thing is to know where the line is and not cross it.
3. See 2: if he can still meet the criteria for being a paladin he should be ok. These traits seem to be a problem for something else though - I think they are not indicative of high charisma, so if John has charisma of 16+ it may be a problem.
4. Beats me - the gods' schemes are not for mortals to know. Maybe Helm likes his devotion - as a LN deity of vigilance and guardianship, he is definitely among the patrons who prioritize order and devotion over good.
5: Read the code. Read the PHB description of LG alignment. You might notice some similarities. Except for "can not commit any evil acts" (even minor ones) the paladin's code is pretty much an interpretation of LG for warriors. So while some players and DMs want to make the code into this big thing, I don't consider it that special - if you are okay with playing LG, of course. Besides, paladins don't lose their power for minor infractions of their code, only really serious ones - which would probably mandate an alignment change anyway.

If the DM or you have a big problem, it may be better if you give him an in-game hint: say another member of his order asking what's wrong or stopping him if he'd make a scene.
Rauric
12-03-07, 09:13 AM There was a pally in the FR comic named Agrivar (I think). He was a recovering drunk. I don't think he could do hi pally schtick when drunk. If the pally is worshipping Helm I would say he definitly loses his powers since being drunk all the time very well could be seen as a dereliction of duty in the god of guardians eyes (imo). Plus the OP has every reason to worry about another player at the game he is playing. It is a group game after all. Maybe he wishes to get some ideas and confidence so he can bring up the issue with the player or DM. If so, good for you. ;)

I hate pallys for btw. I just recently started playing a Crusader and am loving life. No strict code, awesome tank abilities, and I can heal people while bashing baddies in the face. I am very thankful they are retooling pallys in 4E.
Suin Bahhar
12-03-07, 09:39 AM The best (and probably most strict) guidelines for the paladin code is found in the AD&D Complete Handbook of Paladins. With that as a reference a halforc couldn't even be a pally (which makes some sense to me). Flawed pallies did exist though.
The_Shaman
12-03-07, 10:19 AM Hey, even Keldorn Firecam has his flaws, and he was arguably the most old-school, high-fidelity, doesn't-get-any-better-than-that paladin I've come across.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus
12-03-07, 12:40 PM I agree with my fellow here, I've been playing a paladin for 7 years now and he has a mayor flaw (she feels it has to "right every wrong" is all on "her shoulders" kinda thing). and that makes her all better as a PC. PALADINS ARE NOT PERFECT!!!
MerrikCale
12-03-07, 02:28 PM There was a pally in the FR comic named Agrivar (I think). He was a recovering drunk. I don't think he could do hi pally schtick when drunk.

Agrivar (that was his name) was having trouble with his pally powers while he was a drunk
Dolarmak
12-03-07, 03:49 PM Thanks guys for your imput. You gave me a good solution to suggest. If when he's impaired by drinking I'll suggest that his powers be disabled/lessened until he is sober.

Thanks again.
Redrake
12-05-07, 02:30 PM I agree with my fellow here, I've been playing a paladin for 7 years now and he has a mayor flaw (she feels it has to "right every wrong" is all on "her shoulders" kinda thing). and that makes her all better as a PC. PALADINS ARE NOT PERFECT!!!
Depending on their deity I consider them either zealots, either saints wanna be. I used a Red Knight paladin for some time and she was a warmonger, not exactly concerned with charity, but more with vanquishing evil. A paladin of Ilmater (never used one except for IWD2 games) OTOH is more prone to redemption acts when it comes to evil.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus
12-05-07, 05:08 PM Depending on their deity

Thatt's the answer right there, Thread over:D

Mine is from Torm/Heironeus(My DM change from GH to FR) SH'e sorta crazy but not quite Like Bruce Wayne or like Joan of Ark in "messenger":cool:
Redrake
12-05-07, 05:25 PM Uhm, Joan of Arc from Messenger (Mila) is more like CN.:D
Leelee Sobieski on the other Joan of Arc movie is LG.
Sol_Odlanier
12-05-07, 11:52 PM that's why I said Sorta crazy,
Hanali-in-Love
12-08-07, 08:28 AM Paladins in 4ED are no longer the champions of justice anymore. They completely destroyed the Paladin. Just ask around.
sfdragon
12-08-07, 09:14 AM yeah the new smite stuff makes no since.

where is my smite attack?

anyway paladin of helm

i just put that book away, but champions of valor might have the answer on helms paladins, or it may not
Sol_Odlanier
12-08-07, 05:05 PM Paladins in 4ED are no longer the champions of justice anymore. They completely destroyed the Paladin. Just ask around.

don't even get me started on that :censored: Blasphemy :headexplo
Rauric
12-08-07, 08:53 PM I am fine with the changes. In the end if you want your campaign to only have good pallys then so be it, make it so.
Sol_Odlanier
12-09-07, 09:54 PM Meh, I probably wount be buying $E anyways...
GreenKnight
12-12-07, 12:19 AM The best (and probably most strict) guidelines for the paladin code is found in the AD&D Complete Handbook of Paladins.

Heh, I remember that. I applied that code strenuously to my Paladin character at the time. After every game, I'd take stock of any violations I made against the code, write them down, and hand them to my DM so he could decide what penance my character had to do. I usually only committed Incidental Violations, Grave at the absolute worst, but never Extreme or Execrable, so the penances were never to severe. I remember feeling pretty proud of myself when, after a few games, I'd almost ceased to commit even Incidental Violations. :D

By the way, it was through that character that I developed a love for the Shield Bash. I've never felt prouder then when my Human Paladin of Torm went toe-to-toe with the 22 Str Minotaur Fighter of another PC, who was mind controlled, and was able to subdue him through repeated shield bashes (I was trying to KO him and not kill him). Aridis Lyonsblood, you rule. :)

yeah the new smite stuff makes no since.

where is my smite attack?

Here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071128)
sfdragon
12-12-07, 04:52 AM and that is what makes no since to me.

oh well maybe after i can look at the race and classes book it might.

if they got rid of smite evil....
GreenKnight
12-12-07, 10:01 AM What doesn't make sense? The Smite rules? Let's break it down line by line, then.

Safeguard Smite
Paladin 1
Encounter • Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 2x[W] + Cha.
Hit or Miss: An ally within 5 squares gains a bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom modifier until the end of your next turn.

Line 1: The name. Safeguard Smite.
Line 2. The level at which it's available, which is Level 1.
Line 3: It's a Per Encounter power. So you can use it at least once Per Encounter. So if you have six encounters in a day, that's six potential uses. "• Weapon" likely simply means that it's channeled through a weapon of some sort (possibly up to and including bare fists).
Line 4: It's a Standard Action to perform a Safeguard Smite.
Line 5: You use a melee weapon to administer the pain. So no Smites with bows.
Line 6: It only affects one creature.
Line 7: This is the tricky part. I'm not sure if that means that you add your Charisma bonus to your D20 roll, in addition to your regular Strength bonuses, or if you just get a Charisma bonus. Either way, Charisma seems to factor into hitting with a Smite in some way, as it does now.
Line 8: It describes the main effect of the Smite, which is 2x [W] + Cha. [W] is weapon damage, so it does 2 X Weapon Damage + Charisma bonus. So let's say you've got a Str and Cha bonus that provide you with a +2 bonus, each, and you wield a Longsword. That means your regular weapon damage is 1d8+2. So when you hit with a Safeguard Smite, you inflict 2d8+6(!) damage.
Line 9: An extra effect you get from performing a Safeguard Smite. Say you have a Wisdom modifier of +2. If you use a Safeguard Smite, then you can either choose your character or another PC or allied NPC within 25 feet, and that PC will get a +2 bonus (Remember, same as your Wisdom bonus) to their AC til the end of your next round. You can provide this AC bonus to yourself or an ally whether you miss or hit, so you always get it.

I'm rather happy with that. It's definitely miles better than Smite Evil. With Smite Evil, you get your Charisma bonus to hit, your level bonus to damage, it only affects evil creatures, and you do it once per day for every five levels. The to-hit bonus may be lower with this, but the damage is much, much higher at lower levels, it affects anything you hit, and depending on the number of encounters you have a day, you can get more uses out of it then a 20th-level 3E Paladin has uses of Smite Evil.

Anyway, hope that helped.
Kenzuki
12-12-07, 07:19 PM Personally, I've always thought having a paladin being strictly Lawful Good all the time was boring and I like how the Warcraft RPG approching this. In the Warcraft setting the Knights of the Silver Hand (the original human paladins of the Holy Light) can be of any good alignment. So you'de have Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic Good paladins who have much more personality. Like Prince Arthas for example, he was a Chaotic Good paladin. He was rash, a little arrogant but never failed to rush in to defend his people. Of course he did eventually become the first Death Knight and Champion of the Lich King who brought about the destruction of his kingdom. And he did later merge with the Lich King and BECOME the new Lich King....

But the point is, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good paladins can be fun and add a certain amount of spice to life.
The_Shaman
12-14-07, 06:29 AM But the point is, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good paladins can be fun and add a certain amount of spice to life.

That's often been said, and there are already paladin variants for every alignment - some at UA, some at Dragon 311/312, However, whether they would be paladins or something else is a different issue.

By the way, a paladin shouldn't be strictly lawful good all the time - s/he should maintain a LG alignment, certainly, but how strict they are is up to them ;) Alignments are, after all, loose archetypes, and the one thing that immediately gets them zapped is an evil act (minor chaotic ones are okay). As for your example, rashness and a certain arrogance are not incompatible with LG alignment, and aren't exactly unheard of among paladins - although those who can't keep them in check either fall or die. Or both.
Kenzuki
12-14-07, 10:20 PM I'de just say a paladin has to be of any good alignment personally. Keeping their code of course, and I'de say that that code would differ depending on the deity and church in question.
Stigger
12-15-07, 04:54 AM Givent the choice, I'd rather have different terms for 'paladins' of different alignments. 20+ years of paladins being LG is just too much mental inertia for me to overcome.
The_Shaman
12-15-07, 06:47 AM Givent the choice, I'd rather have different terms for 'paladins' of different alignments. 20+ years of paladins being LG is just too much mental inertia for me to overcome.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Paladins being LG is like druids casting spells.
Kenzuki
12-15-07, 07:48 AM It's not that big a deal really. Not for me anyway.
Meldread
12-15-07, 07:57 AM I'm with Stigger on that fact. Personally, I'd like to see them ditch the Paladin entirely in favor of a "Crusader". Crusaders would have to be lawful (LG, LN or LE) and would pretty much take the place of blackguards and paladins. They would follow their respective codes that will depend upon what deity and church they serve. It becomes less of a "one size fits all" class like the current Paladin, and makes the "Holy Warriors" of individual deities more unique and in line with their deities teachings.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dolarmak 12-03-07, 02:04 AM	Hey guys this is my first time here and there is a few questions I'd like to ask the experts about Paladin's in Faerun. Now a friend of mine has a Half Orc Paladin. Which is fine and all, but he thinks that his character needs more flaws becuase he would otherwise be inhuman or too perfect. Now the thing I've been arguing with him about this. His character (lets call him John) has losst faith in those around him. my friend says that he still believes in his god (Helm btw), but because he is a half orc he constantly gets scrutenized by the people who think him a savage. Even people in his own order. Because of this John drinks too much, has violent tendencies and generally feels like life sucks. Now in my opinion that is not a Paladin. First his character is Neutral Good at best, and the way he acts is totally unacceptable for the Paladin code from what i read. I also don't think believe that his own order would have any judgement against him because he is a Paladin, he transended the barrier of savageness by becoming one. Finally I understand that some flaws are acceptable for Paladin to have (such as being naive, headstong or stubborn), but being a violent drunk who has lost faith in people being good shouldn't be. also reading on Paladins in the PHB it says that a Paladin cannot be trained for, you just are or you aren't. So here are the question: How strick is the code for Paladin's in Faerun? What Flaws would you consider acceptable and unacceptable for a Paladin to have? Would his caracter John be considered a Paladin with these flaws? Would John have been chosen by Helm to become a Paladin in the first place? Do you agree with the code of Paladins which makes them almost too perfect?
Puritan13 12-03-07, 02:31 AM	Why are you concernred with his character and not your own? It really isn't any of your business. His character and the roleplaying thereof is between him and the DM, nobody else.
Stigger 12-03-07, 04:33 AM	As to how strict the paladin code is... for Helm... probably focused more on the lawful aspect than the good, given the Helm has a LN alignment, so as long as he kept up his lawfulness and at least paid some attention to the good, then I'd say it was fairly forgiving. As to what flaws would be acceptable or unacceptable, I'd say it depended on some stuff. Given the violent drunk thing... that's kinda iffy. If he lets if interfere with his vigilance, or breaks the law engaging in it, then I'd say it was a huge problem and unacceptable for a paladin of Helm. If it doesn't, then its not a problem per se, but it could be viewed as questionable. A lot of it depends on how much control the paladin has over it. Depending on strictly the whole 'ever-vigilant' thing the local church of Helm views things I think will matter a lot. If he's never considered to be 'off-duty' then it's definitely bad. Is he still a paladin... I'd say he was, though there was a danger of falling. If he's lost faith in 'humanity', so to speak, I'd say his reaction to it mattered more than the fact that he's lost it. If he just presumes everyone's up to no good and has the worst of motives, and keeps his eyes out but doesn't act without provocation, then I'd say that might actually be a plus with Helm and the constant vigilance, at least in some respects. If he presumes the worst and then acts on that presumption without solid evidence of wrongdoing, then I'd say that at the least he's on thin ice. Someone just being evil I'd say didn't count unless they were actively engaged in evil. As to whether he'd have been chosen by Helm in the first place... why not? I'd see no reason for him not to have been if he lives (or lived perhaps) up to the core dogma of Helm's church. As to paladins being too perfect... no, I'd say not at all. They're actively good, but that doesn't mean that the aren't flawed. Champions of Valor takes a good look at flawed heroes, and as I recall addresses flawed paladins. It depends on how strictly you interpret the Code more than anything else. With a more 'liberal' view of it, its not really that restricting at all, while with a more 'conservative' view it can be incredibly restrictive and nearly impossible to live up to. I usually prefer to go with a more 'moderate' view and have a paladin emphasize certain points of it, while minimizing other points that are less important to them. I find it makes paladins much more unique to take that approach with them, rather than the strict Dudley-Do-Right view of them. Another thing I find that helps with paladins is deciding whether or not they favor their good or lawful sides, or perhaps seek to maintain a balance of the two. Like with a paladin of Sune or Lathander, I'd really stress the good over the lawful, taking it from the view that the laws of goodness and the heavens outweigh the laws of men. With Helm or Red Knight, I'd take it from almost the completely opposite view, that the adherence to law often outweighed the dictates of goodness to a certain extent, and that minor infractions against the 'good' of the individual could be tolerated if the 'good' of society was served. There are tons of different ways to look at paladins to make them extremely varied I've found, usually with just a quick look at the dogma and alignment of the faiths they serve. Hope that helped some. :)
The_Shaman 12-03-07, 04:47 AM	Now the thing I've been arguing with him about this. His character (lets call him John) has losst faith in those around him. my friend says that he still believes in his god (Helm btw), but because he is a half orc he constantly gets scrutenized by the people who think him a savage. Even people in his own order. Because of this John drinks too much, has violent tendencies and generally feels like life sucks. ... Finally I understand that some flaws are acceptable for Paladin to have (such as being naive, headstong or stubborn), but being a violent drunk who has lost faith in people being good shouldn't be. Not necessarily. Being miserable or drinking is not an inherently chaotic activity, but it depends on how he acts upon it. The violent tendencies can be a problem if he loses control of it and does an evil or grossly chaotic act. He's walking a fine line, but if he does the right thing for the right reasons he may as well be LG. So here are the question: How strick is the code for Paladin's in Faerun? What Flaws would you consider acceptable and unacceptable for a Paladin to have? Would his caracter John be considered a Paladin with these flaws? Would John have been chosen by Helm to become a Paladin in the first place? Do you agree with the code of Paladins which makes them almost too perfect? 1. I don't remember seeing any particular codes. There may be some changes dependin on the dogma - i.e. a paladins of Sune, Lathander, and Helm might have different priorities and possibly requirements, but I don't think that's spelled out somewhere 2. Technically, anything that permits him to maintain a LG alignment and avoid evil acts should be okay. Flaws are imo good as long as he can stay in control - probably a lot of paladins wrestle with disappointment, violent urges and the gods know what else. The important thing is to know where the line is and not cross it. 3. See 2: if he can still meet the criteria for being a paladin he should be ok. These traits seem to be a problem for something else though - I think they are not indicative of high charisma, so if John has charisma of 16+ it may be a problem. 4. Beats me - the gods' schemes are not for mortals to know. Maybe Helm likes his devotion - as a LN deity of vigilance and guardianship, he is definitely among the patrons who prioritize order and devotion over good. 5: Read the code. Read the PHB description of LG alignment. You might notice some similarities. Except for "can not commit any evil acts" (even minor ones) the paladin's code is pretty much an interpretation of LG for warriors. So while some players and DMs want to make the code into this big thing, I don't consider it that special - if you are okay with playing LG, of course. Besides, paladins don't lose their power for minor infractions of their code, only really serious ones - which would probably mandate an alignment change anyway. If the DM or you have a big problem, it may be better if you give him an in-game hint: say another member of his order asking what's wrong or stopping him if he'd make a scene.
Rauric 12-03-07, 09:13 AM	There was a pally in the FR comic named Agrivar (I think). He was a recovering drunk. I don't think he could do hi pally schtick when drunk. If the pally is worshipping Helm I would say he definitly loses his powers since being drunk all the time very well could be seen as a dereliction of duty in the god of guardians eyes (imo). Plus the OP has every reason to worry about another player at the game he is playing. It is a group game after all. Maybe he wishes to get some ideas and confidence so he can bring up the issue with the player or DM. If so, good for you. ;) I hate pallys for btw. I just recently started playing a Crusader and am loving life. No strict code, awesome tank abilities, and I can heal people while bashing baddies in the face. I am very thankful they are retooling pallys in 4E.
Suin Bahhar 12-03-07, 09:39 AM	The best (and probably most strict) guidelines for the paladin code is found in the AD&D Complete Handbook of Paladins. With that as a reference a halforc couldn't even be a pally (which makes some sense to me). Flawed pallies did exist though.
The_Shaman 12-03-07, 10:19 AM	Hey, even Keldorn Firecam has his flaws, and he was arguably the most old-school, high-fidelity, doesn't-get-any-better-than-that paladin I've come across.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-03-07, 12:40 PM	I agree with my fellow here, I've been playing a paladin for 7 years now and he has a mayor flaw (she feels it has to "right every wrong" is all on "her shoulders" kinda thing). and that makes her all better as a PC. PALADINS ARE NOT PERFECT!!!
MerrikCale 12-03-07, 02:28 PM	There was a pally in the FR comic named Agrivar (I think). He was a recovering drunk. I don't think he could do hi pally schtick when drunk. Agrivar (that was his name) was having trouble with his pally powers while he was a drunk
Dolarmak 12-03-07, 03:49 PM	Thanks guys for your imput. You gave me a good solution to suggest. If when he's impaired by drinking I'll suggest that his powers be disabled/lessened until he is sober. Thanks again.
Redrake 12-05-07, 02:30 PM	I agree with my fellow here, I've been playing a paladin for 7 years now and he has a mayor flaw (she feels it has to "right every wrong" is all on "her shoulders" kinda thing). and that makes her all better as a PC. PALADINS ARE NOT PERFECT!!! Depending on their deity I consider them either zealots, either saints wanna be. I used a Red Knight paladin for some time and she was a warmonger, not exactly concerned with charity, but more with vanquishing evil. A paladin of Ilmater (never used one except for IWD2 games) OTOH is more prone to redemption acts when it comes to evil.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-05-07, 05:08 PM	Depending on their deity Thatt's the answer right there, Thread over:D Mine is from Torm/Heironeus(My DM change from GH to FR) SH'e sorta crazy but not quite Like Bruce Wayne or like Joan of Ark in "messenger":cool:
Redrake 12-05-07, 05:25 PM	Uhm, Joan of Arc from Messenger (Mila) is more like CN.:D Leelee Sobieski on the other Joan of Arc movie is LG.
Sol_Odlanier 12-05-07, 11:52 PM	that's why I said Sorta crazy,
Hanali-in-Love 12-08-07, 08:28 AM	Paladins in 4ED are no longer the champions of justice anymore. They completely destroyed the Paladin. Just ask around.
sfdragon 12-08-07, 09:14 AM	yeah the new smite stuff makes no since. where is my smite attack? anyway paladin of helm i just put that book away, but champions of valor might have the answer on helms paladins, or it may not
Sol_Odlanier 12-08-07, 05:05 PM	Paladins in 4ED are no longer the champions of justice anymore. They completely destroyed the Paladin. Just ask around. don't even get me started on that :censored: Blasphemy :headexplo
Rauric 12-08-07, 08:53 PM	I am fine with the changes. In the end if you want your campaign to only have good pallys then so be it, make it so.
Sol_Odlanier 12-09-07, 09:54 PM	Meh, I probably wount be buying $E anyways...
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 12:19 AM	The best (and probably most strict) guidelines for the paladin code is found in the AD&D Complete Handbook of Paladins. Heh, I remember that. I applied that code strenuously to my Paladin character at the time. After every game, I'd take stock of any violations I made against the code, write them down, and hand them to my DM so he could decide what penance my character had to do. I usually only committed Incidental Violations, Grave at the absolute worst, but never Extreme or Execrable, so the penances were never to severe. I remember feeling pretty proud of myself when, after a few games, I'd almost ceased to commit even Incidental Violations. :D By the way, it was through that character that I developed a love for the Shield Bash. I've never felt prouder then when my Human Paladin of Torm went toe-to-toe with the 22 Str Minotaur Fighter of another PC, who was mind controlled, and was able to subdue him through repeated shield bashes (I was trying to KO him and not kill him). Aridis Lyonsblood, you rule. :) yeah the new smite stuff makes no since. where is my smite attack? Here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071128)
sfdragon 12-12-07, 04:52 AM	and that is what makes no since to me. oh well maybe after i can look at the race and classes book it might. if they got rid of smite evil....
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 10:01 AM	What doesn't make sense? The Smite rules? Let's break it down line by line, then. Safeguard Smite Paladin 1 Encounter • Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Target: One creature Attack: Charisma vs. AC Hit: 2x[W] + Cha. Hit or Miss: An ally within 5 squares gains a bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom modifier until the end of your next turn. Line 1: The name. Safeguard Smite. Line 2. The level at which it's available, which is Level 1. Line 3: It's a Per Encounter power. So you can use it at least once Per Encounter. So if you have six encounters in a day, that's six potential uses. "• Weapon" likely simply means that it's channeled through a weapon of some sort (possibly up to and including bare fists). Line 4: It's a Standard Action to perform a Safeguard Smite. Line 5: You use a melee weapon to administer the pain. So no Smites with bows. Line 6: It only affects one creature. Line 7: This is the tricky part. I'm not sure if that means that you add your Charisma bonus to your D20 roll, in addition to your regular Strength bonuses, or if you just get a Charisma bonus. Either way, Charisma seems to factor into hitting with a Smite in some way, as it does now. Line 8: It describes the main effect of the Smite, which is 2x [W] + Cha. [W] is weapon damage, so it does 2 X Weapon Damage + Charisma bonus. So let's say you've got a Str and Cha bonus that provide you with a +2 bonus, each, and you wield a Longsword. That means your regular weapon damage is 1d8+2. So when you hit with a Safeguard Smite, you inflict 2d8+6(!) damage. Line 9: An extra effect you get from performing a Safeguard Smite. Say you have a Wisdom modifier of +2. If you use a Safeguard Smite, then you can either choose your character or another PC or allied NPC within 25 feet, and that PC will get a +2 bonus (Remember, same as your Wisdom bonus) to their AC til the end of your next round. You can provide this AC bonus to yourself or an ally whether you miss or hit, so you always get it. I'm rather happy with that. It's definitely miles better than Smite Evil. With Smite Evil, you get your Charisma bonus to hit, your level bonus to damage, it only affects evil creatures, and you do it once per day for every five levels. The to-hit bonus may be lower with this, but the damage is much, much higher at lower levels, it affects anything you hit, and depending on the number of encounters you have a day, you can get more uses out of it then a 20th-level 3E Paladin has uses of Smite Evil. Anyway, hope that helped.
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 07:19 PM	Personally, I've always thought having a paladin being strictly Lawful Good all the time was boring and I like how the Warcraft RPG approching this. In the Warcraft setting the Knights of the Silver Hand (the original human paladins of the Holy Light) can be of any good alignment. So you'de have Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic Good paladins who have much more personality. Like Prince Arthas for example, he was a Chaotic Good paladin. He was rash, a little arrogant but never failed to rush in to defend his people. Of course he did eventually become the first Death Knight and Champion of the Lich King who brought about the destruction of his kingdom. And he did later merge with the Lich King and BECOME the new Lich King.... But the point is, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good paladins can be fun and add a certain amount of spice to life.
The_Shaman 12-14-07, 06:29 AM	But the point is, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good paladins can be fun and add a certain amount of spice to life. That's often been said, and there are already paladin variants for every alignment - some at UA, some at Dragon 311/312, However, whether they would be paladins or something else is a different issue. By the way, a paladin shouldn't be strictly lawful good all the time - s/he should maintain a LG alignment, certainly, but how strict they are is up to them ;) Alignments are, after all, loose archetypes, and the one thing that immediately gets them zapped is an evil act (minor chaotic ones are okay). As for your example, rashness and a certain arrogance are not incompatible with LG alignment, and aren't exactly unheard of among paladins - although those who can't keep them in check either fall or die. Or both.
Kenzuki 12-14-07, 10:20 PM	I'de just say a paladin has to be of any good alignment personally. Keeping their code of course, and I'de say that that code would differ depending on the deity and church in question.
Stigger 12-15-07, 04:54 AM	Givent the choice, I'd rather have different terms for 'paladins' of different alignments. 20+ years of paladins being LG is just too much mental inertia for me to overcome.
The_Shaman 12-15-07, 06:47 AM	Givent the choice, I'd rather have different terms for 'paladins' of different alignments. 20+ years of paladins being LG is just too much mental inertia for me to overcome. Yeah, I'm with you on that. Paladins being LG is like druids casting spells.
Kenzuki 12-15-07, 07:48 AM	It's not that big a deal really. Not for me anyway.
Meldread 12-15-07, 07:57 AM	I'm with Stigger on that fact. Personally, I'd like to see them ditch the Paladin entirely in favor of a "Crusader". Crusaders would have to be lawful (LG, LN or LE) and would pretty much take the place of blackguards and paladins. They would follow their respective codes that will depend upon what deity and church they serve. It becomes less of a "one size fits all" class like the current Paladin, and makes the "Holy Warriors" of individual deities more unique and in line with their deities teachings.