Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MerrikCale 02-15-07, 04:24 PM	anybody uses these classes (especially the warblade) in FR? How do you like them?
Dark_beebles 02-16-07, 04:05 AM	Right now playing 1 right now, Elven Warblade/Ftr going for eternal blade but anyways... I like them, Uncanny dodge is nice as a melee type, So dont need to waste money on magic or BAB to get it. And ability to stop ungoing effects to yourself with no chance of failure is a huge plus. Also, being able to use your atk bonus for your ac and your Concentration for any of your saves (specially will) is a huge Bonus as well. I would rate it 8 out of 10 imo...pure casters being above them.
Bluenose 02-16-07, 09:22 AM	anybody uses these classes (especially the warblade) in FR? How do you like them? I haven't seen a warblade in play, though I've looked at the class. We have just added a Sword-sage to our party, but so far there's only been one session. I'd say she was a little more powerful than a monk of the same level (4th) would be in combat. I'm not sure that would carry through at higher levels in the same way, but I suppose we'll see. We've also allowed people to use the Martial Study feat in a previous campaign, so some of the manoeuvres have been used. Some probably don't justify a feat, but would be useful in combination with other abilities. None of the classes seem over-powered, though there are things I don't like. While I don't mind that the warblade can gain fighter-only feats such as weapon specialisation, at a higher level than a fighter, I don't like that they can alter the weapon that these apply to every day. If I was DMing that wouldn't be allowed. There s scope for powergaming, but that's true with almost anything. :)
MerrikCale 03-04-07, 09:12 PM	does a warblade or a swordsage make more sense for an elf or even a fighting group of elves?
MerrikCale 06-04-07, 09:17 PM	any more thoughts?
brisingre 06-04-07, 09:43 PM	warblade/swordsage makes some sense, just not much
MerrikCale 06-04-07, 10:20 PM	warblade/swordsage makes some sense, just not much which is more elven?
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 11:45 PM	-Eytan Berstein is in the process of writing about a lot of those new core classes in Faerūn. Don't know if he's touched upon any of them from Tome of Battle, but you should check out his articles, just in case. They can be found on the FR section of the normal WotC website.
Encard 06-05-07, 01:04 AM	Warblade and Swordsage are great classes that can work for just about any race. Neither is more elven, although there is an elf-centric PrC that (I think) works better with Warblade.
Stigger 06-05-07, 02:14 AM	Much prefer the Sword-Sage to the Warblade myself... for more aesthetic reasons than mechanical ones though.
EytanBernstein 06-05-07, 05:47 AM	-Eytan Berstein is in the process of writing about a lot of those new core classes in Faerūn. Don't know if he's touched upon any of them from Tome of Battle, but you should check out his articles, just in case. They can be found on the FR section of the normal WotC website. They are the next on my list, so I wouldn't expect to see anything about them until the fall.
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 08:39 AM	-Good to know.
Fabius Maximus 06-05-07, 08:45 AM	I don't like them at all.
Suin Bahhar 06-05-07, 09:04 AM	In the realms I'd stay clear of these classes unless you have a reason why blademagic wasn't used untill now. Playing these classes alongside regular melees (barbs & fighters) makes the old classes seem very dull and weak. Maybe only allow PC's of level 10 or higher take levels in warblade or swordsage or something...
MerrikCale 06-05-07, 10:42 AM	In the realms I'd stay clear of these classes unless you have a reason why blademagic wasn't used untill now. Playing these classes alongside regular melees (barbs & fighters) makes the old classes seem very dull and weak. Maybe only allow PC's of level 10 or higher take levels in warblade or swordsage or something... which is why I'm looking forward to Etyan's article on the subject. I have not purchased this book yet for that reason as well as others. I was trying to get a feel for the classes and others' use of them. Plus, I was wondering if anyone is using them for elves specifically. I was thinking of creating an elven blademagic group.
Suin Bahhar 06-05-07, 12:18 PM	I've got the book. Its really good. Very well balanced when compared to casters and psionics, yet using a very different mechanic. The fluff is surprisingly good too. For example the oldest known form of blademagic was invented by hobgoblins (my favourite "monstrous" humanoid) the Iron Heart sublime way. The hobgoblins found a way to perfect their swordmanship to superhuman levels. They were known to be able to strike foes down with a blur of blows from their bastardswords, parry giants, and move with perfectly balanced footwork. The Iron Heart disciplin teaches the subject to feel the flow of steel during battles and utilize it with utmost precision. An elven blademagic style is unneccesary because I think the bladesong already comes to close to this. I also quite like the fact that none of the styles are of elven origin (way overdone) but can be ancient none the less.
AllisterH 06-05-07, 03:12 PM	In the realms I'd stay clear of these classes unless you have a reason why blademagic wasn't used untill now. Playing these classes alongside regular melees (barbs & fighters) makes the old classes seem very dull and weak. Maybe only allow PC's of level 10 or higher take levels in warblade or swordsage or something... I have to admit, I AM curious as to how Eytan will fit these classes into the Realms. Unlike the other classes which basically have a "tradition" of being in the Realms (Ninja) or a core class analogue (warmage->Evoker), the martial adepts are really distinct. Especially given the fluff behind each discipline. For example, have the hobgoblins of the Realms ever been presented as "disciplined" enough to come up with an actual style of combat other than charge, scream and smash?
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 03:18 PM	I have to admit, I AM curious as to how Eytan will fit these classes into the Realms. Unlike the other classes which basically have a "tradition" of being in the Realms (Ninja) or a core class analogue (warmage->Evoker), the martial adepts are really distinct. -He did a good job in his previous articles (Check 'em out if you haven't). I trust that he'll do a good job yet again.
Fabius Maximus 06-05-07, 07:09 PM	-He did a good job in his previous articles (Check 'em out if you haven't). I trust that he'll do a good job yet again. Well, I can only see one possibility: make them as rare as possible.
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 07:37 PM	-We'll have to just wait and see. I have no clue what any of these classes are, so I can't agree or disagree.
Suin Bahhar 06-05-07, 08:02 PM	I have to admit, I AM curious as to how Eytan will fit these classes into the Realms. Unlike the other classes which basically have a "tradition" of being in the Realms (Ninja) or a core class analogue (warmage->Evoker), the martial adepts are really distinct. Especially given the fluff behind each discipline. For example, have the hobgoblins of the Realms ever been presented as "disciplined" enough to come up with an actual style of combat other than charge, scream and smash? I agree that Eyatns articles are ones I look forward too. I kinda like all the new classes WotC pumps out but hate they get next to no relvant details about them in the realms. As for the hobgoblins, I remember someone saying Ed said (yeah, I know, I know) the hobgoblin did have extensive (Roman Empire like) civilisations somewhere in ancient times (maybe during the Era of Giants some 30000 years ago). Can anyone confirm this?
BadCatMan 06-05-07, 08:56 PM	I think Tome Of Battle material (and any of the new magic systems, Tome Of Magic, Incarnum, for that matter) would work really well in the far-flung regions of Faerun, areas that have been scarcely described in the past and where introducing new material isn't going to upset established history and culture. For example, I like Ulgarth for many of these things. It lies roughly centred between Faerun, Kara-Tur and Zakhara (and is possibly a sucessor state of the Imaskari, so it could preserve some of their ancient magic), so it's ideally placed to be sinkhole for all sorts of foreign ideas about magic and martial arts. The land has been described, so it doesn't need to be created out of whole cloth, yet there's plenty of room left. There's knighthoods and armies and militia-trained peasants and barbarians of the desert. It's easy to imagine Crusaders, Warblades and Swordsages operating here. It's a desert land, so Desert Wind fits well, and so does Iron Heart for the Torm-knights and White Raven tactics for the commanders. Dwarves aren't too far away in the mountains and might pick up Stone Dragon. A hypothetical not-too-distant island in the Great Sea could pick up Setting Sun, the barbarians might know Tiger Claw, and so on. Plus you can just slap in migrant Samurai, Ninja, Monks, Great Sea pirates, Zakharan slave-warriors, on and on. In other areas, the Ulgarthian concept of 'separation of church of state' (despite the Torm-following nobility) means that unusual ideas won't be stamped out by dominant priesthoods (provided they commit no crimes). Binders and Shadowcasters and Incarnum could flourish here, or still keep an underground feel without being impossible. The wizards of Ulgarth are barely known, but can easily draw on the lore of three continents and pick up Truenaming, Shadow Magic, Binding, or even be Artificers. Other regions where new stuff could be easily inserted would be Sossal, Semphar, Murghom, Thindol, Samarach, Tashalar. Chessenta also works for something closer to home, with their philosophers, hero-god cults and dedicated warriors.
MerrikCale 06-05-07, 09:19 PM	-He did a good job in his previous articles (Check 'em out if you haven't). I trust that he'll do a good job yet again. they're better than good. I particularly like his handling of beguilers, duskblades, and dragon shamans- classes that didn't peak my interest initially. I look forward to his take on things like Spirit Shamans (which I would place in Osse) or Incarnates, let alone the Tome of Battle stuff
Encard 06-05-07, 10:21 PM	I have to admit, I AM curious as to how Eytan will fit these classes into the Realms. Unlike the other classes which basically have a "tradition" of being in the Realms (Ninja) or a core class analogue (warmage->Evoker), the martial adepts are really distinct. Actually, ToB characters are only as distinct as you make them. Think about how characters in the world will see these folks and what they do - it's not *that* different from what other characters do. Lightning-fast attacks, mighty parries, great resilience, supernatural stealth, fiery explosions, healing allies - none of these effects are things that couldn't be explained as Yet Another Everyday Weirdness. Otherwise, how can they keep making all these PrC's with snazzy new abilities? A Warblade could be a strong, individualistic fighter who's tough enough to break through any mystic or natural maledictions (Iron Heart Surge), violently charismatic and knowledgeable enough to lead warbands into battle (various White Raven goodness), and can slay his enemies with a single well-placed blow (Strike of Perfect Clarity). A Swordsage might be a ninja, possessing great - perhaps even supernatural - discipline (Diamond Mind), the knowledge of how to strike with deadly precision from stealth (Shadow Hand), and utilize pressure point/secret martial arts/mystical powers to stun, cripple and throw enemies in unarmed combat (Setting Sun). The Crusader can easily be played as a paladin (or whatever alignment) with reworked abilities. Remember, classes are generally an OOC concept - it's not like Realms citizens have ranks in Knowledge (Base Class Mechanical Abilities) to identify them. In-game, it's much more important what a character calls himself and how he acts than what class he has - after all, no reason a Fighter/Cleric couldn't also be a convincing paladin, a Rogue couldn't be just an adventurer, or a Wizard 20 couldn't be The Great Archmagus Zalatyner. Same idea here.
EytanBernstein 06-06-07, 05:47 AM	I really appreciate all of the positive thoughts towards the series. I must admit that some of the more unique rulesets have presented some real challenges. This is especially true of Magic of Incarnum, the Tome of Battle, and to a lesser extent, the Tome of Magic. It's fairly simple to work in a scout or a dragon shaman - they don't require all that much work. Capstone systems, however, require a lot of work because they have to be defined in a way that makes them usable in the Realms. By the way, check out this week's installment for Spellthieves and Factotums here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606).
Fabius Maximus 06-06-07, 08:25 AM	Actually, ToB characters are only as distinct as you make them... You forget one thing, however: the mechanics of the ToB classes reach into the game world. At high levels, a martial artist without Adaptive Style cannot use all his known maneuvers in a fight. Even with the feat, the char has to stand still for a round in combat to change them. Try to explain that to your comrades. That's my biggest gripe with the book. The mechanics borrow to much of the vancian spellcasting system. It's inherent inflexibility makes no sense to me. I might have worked if the base classes would have been designed as PrCs, because you give something up to gain something.
AllisterH 06-06-07, 09:43 AM	You forget one thing, however: the mechanics of the ToB classes reach into the game world. At high levels, a martial artist without Adaptive Style cannot use all his known maneuvers in a fight. Even with the feat, the char has to stand still for a round in combat to change them. Try to explain that to your comrades. That's my biggest gripe with the book. The mechanics borrow to much of the vancian spellcasting system. It's inherent inflexibility makes no sense to me. I might have worked if the base classes would have been designed as PrCs, because you give something up to gain something. Not necessarily. The fact is, in combat you might not notice this since each round of combat is only six seconds long and really, unless combat goes for more than 6 rounds (highly unlikely), you probably will never exhaust your list of manoeuvres you have readied. I remember the designer mentioning the reason behind the "can't ready the same manoeuver over and over" as to explicitly prevent spamming as in fiction, you don't see fighters trying the same move, over and over but to force people to mix and match each combat.
Bluenose 06-06-07, 10:42 AM	I think that the mechanics work excellently. Yes, Adaptive Style means taking a round out to use, but if you're engaged in a one-to-one duel then that's probably quite acceptable. I look at the sort of fights you see in movies, and a straight duel often has a split between periods of fast action and periods of standing a few feet apart and circling round each other. In a larger fight you don't see people standing doing nothing, true, but it's pretty dangerous to use Adaptive Style in such circumstances anyway. As for whether the classes fit in the Realms, that depends somewhat on how your Realms games run. I've got no problem with lots of strange, rare, almost lost magical/mystical/martial traditions. From the perspective of most commoners there probably isn't much difference between a wizard and a sorcerer, and I suspect there'd be similarly little difference between a fighter and a Warblade. People who know more might well realise that a Swordsage is doing some odd things, but I personally don't have a problem with that. Some people take a different approach, and would want to leave out things that feel strange, but that's not how I run my games.
Fabius Maximus 06-06-07, 04:35 PM	Not necessarily. The fact is, in combat you might not notice this since each round of combat is only six seconds long and really, unless combat goes for more than 6 rounds (highly unlikely), you probably will never exhaust your list of manoeuvres you have readied. I remember the designer mentioning the reason behind the "can't ready the same manoeuver over and over" as to explicitly prevent spamming as in fiction, you don't see fighters trying the same move, over and over but to force people to mix and match each combat. Maybe, but the system doesn't represent my idea of flexible combat classes, and has quite a few other problems, which I won't to detail here. Don't want to be flamed again for my critique on this book.
Encard 06-06-07, 07:46 PM	Having to take one feat to quickly recover maneuvers (for a Swordsage) or change maneuvers (for a Warblade) isn't all that terrible. How do you explain not always having access to your maneuvers? Maybe some of the things you were trained in require great concentration, or possibly a bit of "refresher" practice, just to make sure you can pull it off *just* right. Maybe they draw on mystic arts that require a careful set-up routine beforehand - going through just the right pre-battle kata to prepare yourself to unleash the savage fury of the tiger, or to let you tense your muscles enough that they're as hard as stone. Whatever - it's not that hard to explain, I feel, and besides - most Swordsages, at least, would have Adaptive Style. Most Warblades don't have that many maneuvers known that they aren't using anyway. Maybe, but the system doesn't represent my idea of flexible combat classes, and has quite a few other problems, which I won't to detail here. Don't want to be flamed again for my critique on this book. You know, disagreeing with you isn't the same thing as flaming you. You should probably keep that in mind.
Fabius Maximus 06-07-07, 06:46 AM	You know, disagreeing with you isn't the same thing as flaming you. You should probably keep that in mind. You did read the thread in the D&D Classes forum, didn't you?
Encard 06-07-07, 07:18 PM	You did read the thread in the D&D Classes forum, didn't you? Which? There've been a few of those. :P In any case, it sounded to me like you were talking about someone's response to you here. *shrug*
Dark Wizard 06-07-07, 08:01 PM	I believe this is the thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=845366
MerrikCale 06-07-07, 08:15 PM	I was leafing thru this book. It looks interesting. Tome of Magic seemed well, rather lame, but I liked this. Do you guys like it?
BadCatMan 06-07-07, 08:43 PM	I think I really like it, though I haven't been able to play any of it yet. The Warblade feels like what the Fighter should have been all long. I find it has good flavour, without being pinnable to any particular cultural model. It's very adaptable, as it can be treated as magic, or mental power, or mysticism, or just plain natural skill. And it gives previously forgotten creatures like hobgoblins and rakshasa some credit, and shares the lore around without giving it all to old standbys like elves or humans. It gives lots of fun and clever battle tactics to combat classes that don't seem to turn the game into something more complex than chess. But the actual mechanics are very complicated: stances, maneuvers, recovery mechanisms, gah.
MagickHobo 06-08-07, 01:33 AM	Yeah, ToB can fit in the realms pretty easy. Fighter -> Warblade. Why? Fighters are guys who are really good at smashing faces. Warblades are guys who are really good at smashing faces. And sometimes they can tell other people how to smash faces too (white raven). Paladin -> Crusader. Why? Paladins are (supposed to be) really good at smashing (evil) faces, FOR JUSTICE! and protecting their comrades/ innocents. Crusaders are really good at smashing faces FOR JUSTICE! (good), FOR POW-AH! (evil) or FOR SOMETHING IN BETWEEN! (LN or CN) and are really, REALLY good at protecting comrades and/or innocents. Swordsages are a bit harder, since access to all those schools of maneuvers gives so many options. Some basic ones though are Monks (setting sun/ Diamond Mind/ Stone Dragon (yeah stone dragon, it uses Ki and represents forehead cinder block smashing pretty well)), "Gishs'" (desert wind, shadow hand) and rogue-mages (shadow hand and possibly diamond mind for swashbucklery stuff) Then all that's left is the prestige classes... Bloodstorm Blades, Eternal Blades, Deepstone Sentinels, and Rubyknight Vindicators all work pretty easy too. Guys that like to throw stuff, elf warrior guys blessed by ancestors, dwarf warrior guys blessed by stone, cleric fighter types. Respectively. Although a diety change might be in order, I can't remember. Shadow sun ninjas would work too, as there are already ninjas. Bloodclaw masters might not, don't know if there are shifters or not in the realms, but there are lycanthropes, so it can be explained as a minor form of that maybe. Jade Phoenix Mages... Reincarnation can't be that uncommon in the realms, and seriously, whats one more "ancient evil locked away" gonna change? Which leaves Master of Nine. Well, the only thing I got is "a guy who has a really really versatile fighting style, that may or may not rely on divine/arcanish power (depending on if he has devoted spirit/ desertwind/ shadow hand)" So if someone who's a little more creative than I am would take a swing... So all that's left is to basically disregard Reshar and all his hootinany (as cool as it is), because it really has no impact on the actual martial adepts. And there ya go. Wulfgar would make a decent Bloodstorm Blade, all his hammer tossin.
BadCatMan 06-08-07, 05:30 AM	On the other hand... I'll relate some interesting tales from the Vast: Located in a wooded dell on the North Road between King’s Reach and Dead Tree Hollow, this waystop village is notable mainly for the excellence of its inn. The Nine Swords stands on the west side of the road, between it and the deep, dark pool for which the village is named. The inn’s name comes from the only local treasure tale-a local wizard, in the early days of the Vast, cast a spell to preserve and protect the magical swords accumulated by his adventuring companions. The spell outlasted both its caster and the swords’ owners, confounding greedy adventurers to this day. If the right words are spoken (Elminster claims they aren’t recorded anywhere but must be seven words or less and in the Common Tongue), nine magical blades will rise in unison from the pool, dripping, and hang vertically in a ring a dozen feet above the water, hilts uppermost. The pool at that point is more than fifty feet deep and a good forty feet from shore, but if a living being can somehow reach the ring and touch a blade, that sword will be released from the magic and fall back into the pond, from which it can be fished (if not retrieved, it simply lies in the water until it slowly rusts away). The other blades remain hanging until touched in their turn or until ten minutes have passed, at which point the spell returns them to concealment. While under the enchantment, these blades can’t be found by dragging the pool or casting dispel magics; they “aren’t there” until the words are spoken. For a wish to release them, Elminster says, the spell incantation must contain at least four of the seven or less correct words (a limited wish would need to include all of the words). Speaking the words a second time makes the remaining blades sink down again into concealment. What sorts of magical blades are included in the nine is not recorded. I presume they were put there by this guy: The city [Procampur] was once home to Thallastam, a famous sage (now deceased) whose interest and expertise was magical swords. Some items from his collection of blades have never been found, and are believed to still be hidden somewhere in the city. As a side-note, he once possessed the sword of King Azoun I - Ilbratha, Mistress Of Battles: All trace of it was lost until, two hundred winters later, the sage Thallastam of Procampur was offered the blade for 1,500 gold pieces by a peddler from a nearby town who seemed ignorant of its true nature. Thallastam brought the blade to Elminster in Shadowdale, the only fellow Loremaster interested in swords whom Thallastam trusted. Elminster identified the blade from the writings of Azoun I (the old king’s great-grandson had then just come to the throne), and Thallastam bore it back toward Procampur by way of Tilver’s Gap and Essembra. But he was never seen again, and did not reach Procampur. His ruined diary, staff, and a skeleton were found some years later when the Pool of Yeven in Battledale was dragged, but the sword was not found. Elminster believes it is in the hands of brigands, or perhaps mercenaries, who have not drawn the blade in battle near the Dales. This all happened about a thousand years ago. So, nine hidden swords and a noted sage of swords (a sword-sage if you will) in the same geographical area. Okay, clearly Thallastam is going to be a classic Faerunian sage, but it would be an interesting retcon to use him in place of Reshar or Turiyeshor.
MagickHobo 06-08-07, 02:15 PM	On the other hand... I'll relate some interesting tales from the Vast: I presume they were put there by this guy: As a side-note, he once possessed the sword of King Azoun I - Ilbratha, Mistress Of Battles: This all happened about a thousand years ago. So, nine hidden swords and a noted sage of swords (a sword-sage if you will) in the same geographical area. Okay, clearly Thallastam is going to be a classic Faerunian sage, but it would be an interesting retcon to use him in place of Reshar or Turiyeshor. Wow, that could work too. Kinda makes me look like a mook :embarrass Good job!:D
Encard 06-08-07, 06:13 PM	It could be interesting, yes... Of course, that changes the story of the Nine Swords enough that I'm not sure if there's a real reason to. Personally, I think I'd favor the idea that Thallastam the Swordsage was trying to bring the sword all back together (perhaps leaving nine magical or possibly cursed weapons in the more obvious enchantment as decoys, and however many of the Nine Swords he collected in an underlaying, better-hidden enchantment). Perhaps he hoped that bringing them together really would restore harmony to the world/bring Reshar back to help oppose some great evil/whatever? That is, perhaps, up to the players to find out! Well, find out or possibly ignore, but close enough.
Muddman 06-19-07, 11:53 AM	I LOVE playing the ToB characters! They work just fine in the realms so long as you're creative enough to work them in without altering the entire planet. My first character was a Warblade and the first fight was ok, just getting the hang of him without the maneuvers. The first time I walked up to a guy and did 76 point of damage with one shot everyone stopped and stared at me saying, "What?" The DM checked the book and read the entry for greater insightful strike and confirmed my math. ... and then I died in the next encounter due to a 1 on a Fort save against a bodak... stuff happens :) But I find them a very good extension to the fighting system. I'll admit that I don't like some of the maneuvers because they're too vague (Iron Heart Surge for one), but a good DM will alter the meanings to what he thinks is reasonable. As for how do you explain not standing around for a whole round, our group said it was sort of like the pointless but cool looking Conan weapon displays. "I take my stance, flipping my sword around me and then bringing it to bear, my focus renewed". Trust me, a warblade with his maneuvers re-newed deals ALOT more damage than him charging into the jaws of the beast unprepared. Personally, I think they rock and are likely to overtake the fighter class (or become the fighter class) in 4th edition.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-19-07, 02:59 PM	In the realms I'd stay clear of these classes unless you have a reason why blademagic wasn't used untill now. Playing these classes alongside regular melees (barbs & fighters) makes the old classes seem very dull and weak. Maybe only allow PC's of level 10 or higher take levels in warblade or swordsage or something... The styles and stances of the classes aren't considerd magic, its a form of fighting. Such as a barbarians rage feature, your charector trains and studies within certain arts in order to prepare themselves for combat.
Fabius Maximus 06-19-07, 03:49 PM	It's called blademagic right in the book. And some of the maneuvers and stances produce supernatural or nigh-supernatural effects, some at rather low levels. Also, the system works almost like the vancian system.
Suin Bahhar 06-19-07, 03:50 PM	I know most of the maneauvers are extraordinairy feats of swordmanship. But why didn't the heroes of the last few generation encounter these special combat stances. Because they did. Combat stances are as important to fighters as they are to warbades (from a flavour perspective, mechanically it's a different story). Thats why I would prefer to keep my fighter classes separate or in some kind of NPC class (warrior-esque) relationship with the warblade. I intend to alter the fighter class to give it some free stances as they level up in the double digit levels. Maybe invent some ranger, pally and barbarian exclusive stances as well. I do love tome of battles flavour and mechanics!
MerrikCale 06-19-07, 10:45 PM	I do love tome of battles flavour and mechanics! I'm diggin' it as well
Dark Wizard 06-19-07, 11:49 PM	I'm diggin' it as well Me too. I hate the art though, but that's just me.
MerrikCale 06-20-07, 11:16 PM	Me too. I hate the art though, but that's just me. actually some of the art is good, some not so much. I would give it a B-
Straploknight 06-23-07, 09:43 PM	I found Warblade appealing, and it came in pretty handy when I was facing down the usual facing the BBEG and the ever present betrayal by my party scenario that always seems to pop up when my buddy DMs.
MerrikCale 06-24-07, 02:48 PM	I found Warblade appealing, and it came in pretty handy when I was facing down the usual facing the BBEG and the ever present betrayal by my party scenario that always seems to pop up when my buddy DMs. now what kind of buddy is that?
Straploknight 06-24-07, 03:37 PM	The reassuringly predictable type, at least he isn't the no-way-out death trap DM, despite the constant back-stabbing I can usually get my self out of the mess. Better than my old DM, who essentially created an escalating power gaming war. Nothing like facing down a polymorphed black dragon paladin wielding two vorpal two-handed swords in full plate and carrying enough healing magic to effectively make it a epic level monster (calculated total damage by party was about 1300 to 1400hp and we still didn't drop it) as well as not being unencumbered while running through the woods with nine guys strapped to its back while in humaniod form, or the super realistically detailed DM that demanded simple things like unlatching the door which invariably ended up in a hit point here or there as you absent mindedly said things like; "I go through the door", or "I get the contents out of the drawer" all while running into said door or smashing your hand into said closed drawer. Oddly, fun times all the same.
Kurama Youko 06-25-07, 08:53 AM	Wow, you guys make it sound like you never read novels where fighters did incredible martial maneuvers before. The entirety of the Tomb and Battle isnt all Flaming sword and shadow walking, and a large majority of it (Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, Iron Heart, White Raven and Diamond Mind Maneuvers) are not so much as supernatural flashy light show abilities, but are high exaggerated standard attacks with a few extra points of dice damage.
Fabius Maximus 06-25-07, 12:21 PM	..., but are highly exaggerated standard attacks with a few extra points of dice damage. That's another thing that bugs me. It's exagerated because some people think class balance is everything.
sleyvas 06-28-07, 03:35 PM	>>Originally Posted by The City Of Ravens Bluff: Swords Pool Wow, great find! I had been thinking about this. Tempus battled and defeated Garagos. Garagos is a many armed individual (up to 10 arms). Perhaps there's actually 10 styles, but the 10th style has yet to be discovered by mortals (thus explaining why the guy left the monastery, to go off and discover the final style). Perhaps the monasteries that taught blade magic held Garagos in high esteem, and it was Tempus' followers that sought them out and killed them off. This might explain why blade magic was lost for so long. Now, it would seem that blade magic is being rediscovered. I've always liked the idea that the Raumathari once held a fondness for blade magic, but they focused on "elemental" versions of the blade magic (i.e. many of the same schools, but with elemental names like Grumbar's Fist instead of Stone Dragon, Kossuth's Breath instead of Desert Wind, etc...). Modern day Kossuthans may have sought out these ancient arts, renaming these older elemental names to match their religious ethos... but in essence remaining the same teachings. For instance, Grumbar's Fist becomes Kossuth's Fury or somesuch.
Yanagita Kunio 06-29-07, 06:41 PM	Ooh. The Tempus/Garagos tie-in is interesting, especially the ten arms/nine or ten disciplines bit. Particularly if you get a bit John Keegan and present Garagos as representing an "earlier" style of warfare where combat included a ritualization of rules of engagement--ie pairing off of champions (of equal social rank) even on the field of battle, like in the Iliad or Mahabharata, or early Chinese histories--while Tempus represents the coming of something closer to "total war." Makes for a cool backstory and potential retcon on the disappearance/reappearance of the fighting styles.
BelainDefenderofJerusalem 06-29-07, 07:27 PM	i was wondering, wouldnt a warblade bladesinger be awesome?
sleyvas 07-02-07, 05:04 PM	Ooh. The Tempus/Garagos tie-in is interesting, especially the ten arms/nine or ten disciplines bit. Particularly if you get a bit John Keegan and present Garagos as representing an "earlier" style of warfare where combat included a ritualization of rules of engagement--ie pairing off of champions (of equal social rank) even on the field of battle, like in the Iliad or Mahabharata, or early Chinese histories--while Tempus represents the coming of something closer to "total war." Makes for a cool backstory and potential retcon on the disappearance/reappearance of the fighting styles. Wow, that was an aspect of this I hadn't thought of. Even better, it absolutely fits those 2 different god's ethos. Garagos seems like more of the personal champion, whereas Tempus is definitely about mass battles. I can see Tempus' people hunting down the blademagic masters with numbers
hawkinsthedm 07-04-07, 09:21 PM	Long Live the Tome of Battle! I simply LOVE this book. It is my favorite D&D supplement. The Crusader is way better than the Paladin. If you use the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, you can make the Swordsage just as scary, or scarier than the Monk. And I would play a Warblade over a Fighter and day.
MerrikCale 07-04-07, 09:23 PM	i was wondering, wouldnt a warblade bladesinger be awesome? I always think of elves as swordsages actually, but thats just me. I like the swashbuckler/wizard/bladesinger
Muddman 07-05-07, 12:02 AM	Long Live the Tome of Battle! I simply LOVE this book. It is my favorite D&D supplement. The Crusader is way better than the Paladin. If you use the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, you can make the Swordsage just as scary, or scarier than the Monk. And I would play a Warblade over a Fighter and day. I was reading the swordsage variants (at the end of the entry) and you can give up your light armor prof and get a monk's unarmed damage instead! That means a swordsage at 20th level (or lower with items) does 2d10 unarmed damage without the use of feats! You probably saw it, but I missed it so I'm sure others have. These classes rock!
hawkinsthedm 07-05-07, 02:14 AM	I was reading the swordsage variants (at the end of the entry) and you can give up your light armor prof and get a monk's unarmed damage instead! That means a swordsage at 20th level (or lower with items) does 2d10 unarmed damage without the use of feats! You probably saw it, but I missed it so I'm sure others have. These classes rock! Lol. I didn't miss it, I am just covetous of having light armor proficiency AND Wis to AC :D.
stonedrunk 07-05-07, 12:27 PM	Let me start off by sayin i love TOB. Break down Warblades have been banned by my group of players due to 3 reasons. 1 they can be broken really easy.<overpower compared to other classes of the same lvl> the only other class banned that i can think of is warmage. 2 No one would or should play a fighter ever again. the warblade does everything a fight can do better and for less. Now you can feat out a fighter to be better then a warblade in very narrow ways but over all warblade is better then fighter 3 the way they get back maneuvers way to easy. Swordsages are the new fave class in my group. thou no one uses it as there main class, they just use it to make there main class better. crusader no one in our group likes the way the class is set up. it might all so have to do party with no one really likes pallys either. over all i say its a good book and easy to use
MerrikCale 07-05-07, 08:35 PM	crusader no one in our group likes the way the class is set up. it might all so have to do party with no one really likes pallys either. why is that? Its very different from a paladin
Lord_Zeb 07-06-07, 05:48 AM	Well, both Crusaders and Paladins use holy energy in melee combat, as well as having healing properties. As for my personal opinion: like the ToB in general... the 3 classes in there are to me as good as PrC, and work well as such in general as 1/2 of one's other classes count for Initiator levels so one can buy higher level techniques with one's starting techniques if one start one's Warblade or such classes on 5th (for 2nd level maneuvers) or 9th (for 3rd level maneuvers) character level. It also gives some power to the Fighter class who can buy maneuvers and stances as bonus feats, not to mention that Fighter and Warblade stack nicely for Weapon specialization. Also like the Warblade/Bladesinger variant, complements each other well both by image as well as skill mechanics. But, back to topic: Forgotten Realms ToB adjustments: Start with not using the ToB terms. Crusader = Paladin, religious paladin-like knighly orders for possible other gods, or even Blackguards. Warblades = Fighters. Iron Heart was not invented by Hobgoblins (which fits well with Eberron, but not Forgotten Realms), but by the Elves. Elves = good Warblades. Swordsage = Weapon-wielding Monks & ninjas. Origin in the eastern and south-eastern parts of the Forgotten Realms. (Unther & Kara-tur.) Elven magical sword techniques could possibly be had, as well as that the shadowdancerlike abilities and archery skills of the shadow hand could be attributed to some of the elven stealth skills. Prestige classes would also need a bit of a workover in image and background, but should otherwise work well. Bloodstorm blade maybe made into a barbarian fighting style instead of a martial school, Master of Nine scratch the background completely, other prestige classes bein put in specific settings, such as Shadow Sun Ninja being set in Kara-tur, Deepstone Sentinel being Shield Dwarf, Blood claw master junglebound, no Wild Elves tradition for Eternal Blades... Gods need definitely to be changed though: Ruby Vindicator Knights maybe should take for Kelemvor for Wee Jas if one wants to keep the Undead-slayer image, even if the Red Knight would also be a candidate for those more interested in the White Raven style which would also make it... a "new addition" as the Red Knight is not a very established god. Jade Phoenix need a good background story that is centered on the campaign, so the deity/demon chained should be chosen according to chose of which part of the Forgotten Realms setting one is interested in. Maybe it is one of the Old Ones gods, up in the North? Or an Untherian unknown demi-god? Invent one if you do not wish to change one existing, as it is your campaing as DM. ;)
Rauric 07-06-07, 07:40 AM	In the realms I'd stay clear of these classes unless you have a reason why blademagic wasn't used untill now. Playing these classes alongside regular melees (barbs & fighters) makes the old classes seem very dull and weak. Maybe only allow PC's of level 10 or higher take levels in warblade or swordsage or something... We have a Barb the same levl as our Warblade in our grp and he does a fair amount of dmg, sometimes more than the blade can dish out. He feels fine about the Warblade. We are all level 8, the barb is 6.
stonedrunk 07-06-07, 09:25 AM	why is that? Its very different from a paladin think it has todo with the whole Holy Tank thing. we also have a hard time finding people to play clerics.
hawkinsthedm 07-06-07, 12:17 PM	I keep hoping they will get to writing a "Class Chronicles" for the ToB. I like the articles they have covered so far though. In my recent campaign I had a Hellbred (FCII) Crusader of Ilmater. It worked really well. The only thing that was broken is that he was wearing full plate and had a 29 AC, which my wife then beat with a 31 AC on her monk (this included some well-chosen equipment too). You the Jade Phoenix would probably have originated in Kara-Tur, and were Wu Jen/Swordsages. I need to read up on my Kara-Tur lore to figure what they would be binding. Jade Phoenix would also fit seamlessly into Rokugan. Another idea I had for the Jade Phoenix is that they had been trying to make sure the Fey'ri stayed bound, and are now working to hunt them down. It does seem that they wrote the lore of ToB with Eberron in mind. I am reading through the ECS and this is becoming apparent to me.
MerrikCale 07-06-07, 04:12 PM	I keep hoping they will get to writing a "Class Chronicles" for the ToB. Etyan has said that he has written those write-ups. I believe he indicated they will be out there late summer or fall. It seems will be on psionics for a time here
hawkinsthedm 07-06-07, 05:44 PM	Etyan has said that he has written those write-ups. I believe he indicated they will be out there late summer or fall. It seems will be on psionics for a time here Cool. It is good to know that they are in the works then :cool:.
EytanBernstein 07-07-07, 03:35 AM	Etyan has said that he has written those write-ups. I believe he indicated they will be out there late summer or fall. It seems will be on psionics for a time here The articles are being released a bit faster. I wouldn't be surprised to see it by August. (Oh and it's Eytan, not Etyan).
captaincarot 07-07-07, 05:02 AM	think it has todo with the whole Holy Tank thing. we also have a hard time finding people to play clerics. can't see why, you can have great fun playing a cleric. especially if you get a set of stock sayings which praise your god and can be used in a variety of circumstances. the other thing is the ablility to constantly berrate various members of the party about their lack of faith and diversions from the tennets of your faith. if you do it right you can cause havoc, though one of my clerics once spent a day and night tied up in the back of a wagon, the rest of them jumped me before we got to a town. my preachings had gotten us chased out of the previous town by an enraged mob. it has also resulted in the odd hail of dice from the rest of the players.
MerrikCale 07-07-07, 03:25 PM	The articles are being released a bit faster. I wouldn't be surprised to see it by August. (Oh and it's Eytan, not Etyan). I'm happy it will be out so quickly. Although I would think the psionics bit will last a few more articles though. Sorry 'bout the misspell. Need to read my posts more thoroughly.
Dark Wizard 07-07-07, 08:09 PM	The articles are being released a bit faster. I wouldn't be surprised to see it by August. (Oh and it's Eytan, not Etyan). Great news. Though you might want to keep "Etyan" in mind if you ever want to pull a Zagyg.
EytanBernstein 07-07-07, 11:05 PM	I'm happy it will be out so quickly. Although I would think the psionics bit will last a few more articles though. Sorry 'bout the misspell. Need to read my posts more thoroughly. No problem on the misspell. Depending on how things are divided, there should be one or two more psionics articles.
EytanBernstein 07-07-07, 11:06 PM	Great news. Though you might want to keep "Etyan" in mind if you ever want to pull a Zagyg. That's true, but Etyan reminds me of when I took French in high school and the teacher made us choose a French name. I ended up being Etienne.
MerrikCale 07-07-07, 11:12 PM	No problem on the misspell. Depending on how things are divided, there should be one or two more psionics articles. I look forward to your take on the crusader. I have always wanted a base class holy warrior and this may be it.
Diffan 07-17-07, 08:49 PM	I dont know if it's been covered yet, but has anyone given thoughts to creating specific maneuvers and stances from famous NPC's? It's hard, to be sure, because none of the cannon NPC's have classes or feats to use maneuvers and stances, but I'm thinking unofficially. I could easily forsee Artemis, Drizzt, Arilyn Moonblade, Elaith, and many more having specific strikes, counters, boosts, and stances that maybe don't have effects listed in the ToB.
MerrikCale 07-17-07, 09:53 PM	I dont know if it's been covered yet, but has anyone given thoughts to creating specific maneuvers and stances from famous NPC's? It's hard, to be sure, because none of the cannon NPC's have classes or feats to use maneuvers and stances, but I'm thinking unofficially. I could easily forsee Artemis, Drizzt, Arilyn Moonblade, Elaith, and many more having specific strikes, counters, boosts, and stances that maybe don't have effects in the ToB. I would think they would more likely been named after famous swordsman that are more well-known to the populace
Diffan 07-18-07, 08:08 AM	I would think they would more likely been named after famous swordsman that are more well-known to the populace If you know of some, I'd be glad to hear them and what weapons they fought with or how they fought. Usually though famous NPC's are mages and therefore most wouldn't have signature maneuvers. I picked Drizzt, Artemis, etc... because they're pretty good melee combatants who, through stories, have been known for they're style of sword-fighting. For example, Drizzt's cross-down parry in game terms could be a Counter, negating a critical threat and making your opponent flat-footed until his next round. Things like that mentioned in books that are too easily explained by certain feats like Dodge.
hawkinsthedm 07-18-07, 02:42 PM	I might develop a Battle Rager (i.e. Tibbledwarf Pwent) discipline. It would have to involve a lot of charging and grappling. I have been meaning to rebuild the Battle Rager PrC since the one in Races of Faerun is so far from what you see in Salvatore's novels.
Diffan 07-18-07, 04:20 PM	I might develop a Battle Rager (i.e. Tibbledwarf Pwent) discipline. It would have to involve a lot of charging and grappling. I have been meaning to rebuild the Battle Rager PrC since the one in Races of Faerun is so far from what you see in Salvatore's novels. That'd be interesting to see, I hope it works out well. I could see alot of Realm specific PrC's that included maneuvers and stances as well. The drow weapon master is a probability for starters. Once I get my ToB back, I'm going to look into creating new maneuvers and stances with Realms flavor.
MerrikCale 07-18-07, 08:25 PM	If you know of some, I'd be glad to hear them I know Ed Greenwood detailed somewhere many of the famous swordsman of the Realms
Diffan 07-18-07, 08:41 PM	I know Ed Greenwood detailed somewhere many of the famous swordsman of the Realms Yea, I read that article too. Off hand I couldn't remember the names, but they're levels weren't statted so that makes a lot of wiggle room for martial abilities gained from the ToB. If I can find that article, I might be able to see what kind of fighter they are, tactics used, style of combat that would work well with the different disiciplines in ToB and create some unique signature maneuvers and stances. If there are books, short stores, or other info besides whats in the article, I'll try to find them and gain some more info about the kinda character he/she is.
BadCatMan 07-18-07, 09:35 PM	Yo: http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/sse_010203-06.htm (scroll down or search for "swordsmen") Skoalam was recently made into a Swashbuckler in the Class Chronicles series. Drizzt and most famous characters don't really run martial schools, so they're unlikely to have maneuvers named after them. Sure, Drizzt might have developed the cross-down parry or the ghost step (?, the one where he hides behind the enemy's blade of all things) independently, but few other warriors would have heard of him or the moves, let alone bother naming them after him (except Catti-Brie and maybe those two warriors in Spine Of The World). They're just as likely to learn it from a proper instructor and develop it themselves and name it after themselves. :) If you poke around into deep Realmslore, a few possibilities for Sublime Way schools show up. Like Stilmus's Society Of The Sword, a Chessentan mercenary company where every member is a honourable professional soldier and a master of the longsword (or maybe bastard sword). This would make a good school for Diamond Mind or Iron Heart disciplines.
MerrikCale 07-18-07, 10:21 PM	, but they're levels weren't statted so that makes a lot of wiggle room for martial abilities gained from the ToB. No, but manuevers could be named after them, and I believe that was the initial start of this conversation
Diffan 07-19-07, 07:37 AM	No, but manuevers could be named after them, and I believe that was the initial start of this conversation Right, my thoughts exactly. What I'm going for here is techinques, style, and a warrior's version of specialized maneuvers that he/she came up with. Not just learning from a school but through experience. I understand what BadCatMan is saying and BTW, thanks for the link, I'll read through it thoroughly, and I can definitly see schools teaching techniques, stances, and the various disciplines. I want to expand that further, because some martial schools may not know about Drizzt's cross-down parry or his ghost step ability for example and true, it might not be widely known, but it defines these abilities and makes them useful in game terms. Putting Drizzt's name or who-ever on the front of the maneuver just gives props to the one who created or used it enough for it to be come popular. How else could Le'lorinel know so much about the in/famous drow to fight him so well and know his maneuvers if not for hear-say or 1st and 2nd hand accounts. I'm trying to make it so not just mages have all the fun and there can be unique things for fighters as well.
Suin Bahhar 07-19-07, 10:23 AM	This is all well and good but I don't think being a notorious or famous swordsman is a reason to give characters like Drizzt or Artemis maneuvers. I prefer Blademagic as a sort of forgotten art of fighting no underdark drow or calimshan assassin would pick up by just training. If every iconic charcter gets their own maneuvers and stances the feel of blademagic gets lost, and the maneuvers start to become more like feats and stuff. Though I like the idea to have realms specific martial schools, i dont really think these should involve the famous iconics of the setting.
hawkinsthedm 07-19-07, 12:06 PM	This is all well and good but I don't think being a notorious or famous swordsman is a reason to give characters like Drizzt or Artemis maneuvers. I prefer Blademagic as a sort of forgotten art of fighting no underdark drow or calimshan assassin would pick up by just training. If every iconic charcter gets their own maneuvers and stances the feel of blademagic gets lost, and the maneuvers start to become more like feats and stuff. Though I like the idea to have realms specific martial schools, i dont really think these should involve the famous iconics of the setting. I agree. As much as I love Drizzt, the character, while a novel icon, is relatively unknown (as depicted in the Sellswords Trilogy whenever Jaraxle tried to pose as Drizzt). These are ancient arts. I am still looking forward to the Realms spin in "Class Chronicles," but beyond that, I am probably going to leave it relatively untouched. Now, for developing new Realms-specific Disciplines, I think that everyone should do as they wish. Say that in your FR campaign Drizzt and Cattie Brae settle down in Mithral Hall, or somewhere they are relatively unknown, and he sets up a dojo. Then it would make sense to develop an entire Discipline set around his moves in the Dark Elf books.
Diffan 07-19-07, 05:53 PM	This is all well and good but I don't think being a notorious or famous swordsman is a reason to give characters like Drizzt or Artemis maneuvers. I prefer Blademagic as a sort of forgotten art of fighting no underdark drow or calimshan assassin would pick up by just training. lol, yea I does go against cannon rules and the like, but I'm trying to look outside the box. Drizzt and Artemis wouldn't have any levels in the Martial Adept classes, but it's quite possible to pick up martial feats such as Martial Stance and Martial Maneuver multiple times. It's also another way of describing they're prowess and they're uncanny abilities instead of saying it's because of this feat or that. Also, I wouldn't treat every discipline as it says in the ToB, there would have to be changes to fit FR flavor. If every iconic charcter gets their own maneuvers and stances the feel of blademagic gets lost, and the maneuvers start to become more like feats and stuff. I'm purely using Drizzt and Artemis as examples, and I don't think that every iconic character would have his own special maneuvers. I was thinking of paralells between the maneuvers/stances and specific spells created by various mages throughout Faerun. Putting the mentioned character aside, what about using other famous swordsmen/women mentioned in the article linked above? Now, for developing new Realms-specific Disciplines, I think that everyone should do as they wish. Say that in your FR campaign Drizzt and Cattie Brae settle down in Mithral Hall, or somewhere they are relatively unknown, and he sets up a dojo. Then it would make sense to develop an entire Discipline set around his moves in the Dark Elf books. What about taking existing Disciplines and just putting different names on them to fit the FR setting? Creating whole new discipines IMO would be more difficult to balance than a few maneuvers or stances from various characters, iconic or not. I like the idea though, and will give it alot of thought.
Suin Bahhar 07-19-07, 06:33 PM	Dont know. The flavour in the book is just fine for me. It only needs a little historic background fit for the realms. I agree the mechanics could be used to describe some signiture moves of extraordinairy good fighters like Artemis. Drizzt crosshand parry could work alot like the Iron heart counter etc. Though I would like to see your results I doubt I would use them because these iconic characters have been shown to be high level regular pclike characters for some time now. Most maneuvers are not moves of a single hero, they were/are techniques learnt from back in the ancient times by countless individual warriors. These swordsmen Ed mentioned are really interesting, yes. If I recall the most interesting one is Lyaunthra Aldegal who seems a clear example of stonedragon style fighting, with her taking one feet of blade in the stomach and all. The others all seem to be diamond mind, iron heart or tiger claw like combatants.
hawkinsthedm 07-19-07, 07:48 PM	I think I am going to jut wait for the Class Chronicles article(s) before speculating much more.
Diffan 07-19-07, 08:12 PM	I just don't see why it's hard to see people inventing new ways and techniques for combat. The process would be much like a wizard crafting a new spell. It involves research (or much practice with various martial masters), exp, money, etc... Martial Adepts can even take a feat that allows them to create martial scrolls much like a wizard does. I'm excited to see what the Class Chronicles say as well, but I think in the campaigns I run, if one is a martial adept class, I'll allow him to research his own maneuvers much like a wizard is allowed to create his own spells. Also, this would be a good place to put any new maneuvers or disciplines people come up with.
MerrikCale 07-19-07, 09:23 PM	I think I am going to jut wait for the Class Chronicles article(s) before speculating much more. it should be coming soon
EytanBernstein 07-20-07, 01:17 AM	it should be coming soon I just finished my final draft (pending Realmslore checking by Eric and/or George), so you should see it in about 4-6 weeks or so.
MerrikCale 07-20-07, 09:36 PM	there ya have it. That must be one of the last ones
EytanBernstein 07-21-07, 04:12 AM	there ya have it. That must be one of the last ones Indeed. I've only got one more article after it.
Blade_Shadow 07-22-07, 09:07 PM	so has anyone ever restatted drizzt/arty as tob characters?
Diffan 07-23-07, 07:43 AM	so has anyone ever restatted drizzt/arty as tob characters? I was thinking of doing so. The way I see it, for him(Drizzt) to have alot of good maneuvers/stances, we'd have to replace the levels of fighter he has with that of the warblade. He really doesn't have any of the abilities of the swordsage, but I'd suspect him to have the stance Island of Blades, so possibly taking the Martial Stance feat. Problem with him having no levels in fighter is that he's starved for feats, but hopefully we can over come that with his maneuvers. I'd also suspect him to have a couple of maneuvers of his own that I'll have a write up for once I get my ToB back. He did have specific and special training, so it's highly possible. His levels would look something like this barbarian 1/warblade 12/ranger 5 with a CR of 19
Suin Bahhar 07-23-07, 11:22 AM	Artemis does show some swordsage trickery. But he could just as easiliy have deceptive gear (like his charons claw) that enables his shadowhand like smokescreens and such. Drizzt with warblade levels, heh? Why dont give him some more fighter levels or replace some existing feats to the martial study feat, to allow him using his personal stance: Stance of the Warden Level: swordsage 3 warblade 3 or ranger level 6 as combat style option prerequisite: combat expertise initiation: swift action range: personal target: 1 single oppponent duration: stance This stance lets the user predict the flow of attacks directed at him with utmost precision. The initiator gains evasion and a +2 dodge ac bonus vs attacks from a single opponent chosen at the start of this stance. Attacks from a different opponent than the stance's target can not be evaded by the initiator and he cant get the ac bonus. Still I dont get the feeling new stances and maneuvers are easiliy balanced or made from scratch.
sleyvas 07-23-07, 11:34 AM	yeah, much like making a ton of new vestiges, making a lot of new stances and maneuvers wouldn't be the way to go. However, a handful here and there (like a single new stance possible for X race because they have multiple arms or something, much like a vestige from a specific time in the past that would require several knowledge skills, some level of spellcraft skill, etc....) would be something that could provide some flair.
Diffan 07-23-07, 05:03 PM	Still I dont get the feeling new stances and maneuvers are easiliy balanced or made from scratch. That's how most spells other than the PHB ones were created I'd assume. Also, I don't think it's hard to fathom swordmen/women to have they're own unique flavor and techniques. That's not to say that every one of them has they're own special maneuver, but maybe a 10% do. Still, I like the stance you've created, very nice.
hawkinsthedm 07-23-07, 07:01 PM	...to allow him using his personal stance: Drizzt's superhandy defensive stance... Needs a cooler name though.
Suin Bahhar 07-24-07, 11:32 AM	Im gonna go ahead and try to take a spin on the Garagos tie-in mentioned earlier in this thread. Like this crusader stance: Garagos Seething Anger Level: Crusader 7 Prerequisite: 3 Devoted Spirit Maneuvers, Knowledge(religion; Garagos) 8 Initation: 1 swift action Range: 30 ft radius centered on initiator Target: personal Duration: stance With a snarl you scream with the rage of Garagos from within your soul manifesting its energy around you. A Whisping red and black translucent mist sucks the anger from all creatures around you reducing their morale and boosting your own. All creatures (including allies) within 30 feat at the beginning of your turn must make a fortitude save or become washed by the misty tendrils and are treated as shaken. Each failed save gives you 2 temporary hitpoints and increase your str score by one (both stack) for 1 minute. This is a supernatural (necromantic) maneuver.
hawkinsthedm 08-20-07, 03:02 PM	Is anyone else worried that we will not see the ToB "Class Chronicles" articles? It is frustrating that they did not post last weeks on time. And it was right before their "Big Announcement" of Doom.
Dark Wizard 08-20-07, 10:55 PM	I have no worries, they probably want people to play with the Tome of Battle in the Realms since elements of ToB or a systems similar to ToB are going to make it into 4E core. It'll be training players to get used to 4E. However, I can't say anything for the actual logistics of the website, since the hectic pace set to get the DI up and running may swallow up some articles.
MerrikCale 08-20-07, 10:57 PM	Is anyone else worried that we will not see the ToB "Class Chronicles" articles? It is frustrating that they did not post last weeks on time. And it was right before their "Big Announcement" of Doom. not all the articles have been published weekly. There have been 2 week gaps before and with all the hoopla around the 4e stuff they probably decided to leave it for now. I'm sure we'll get them
EytanBernstein 08-21-07, 12:50 AM	It was simply a matter of not having time to get articles up before Gen Con. The site changes and announcements ate up a huge amount of time. Once things return to normal at WotC, the series will continue.
Dark Wizard 08-21-07, 12:55 AM	Good to hear. I appreciate the articles. Btw, would you happen to be able to reveal if you're involved with or contacted for 4E freelance work, either Realms related or not, Eytan?
EytanBernstein 08-21-07, 03:51 PM	Good to hear. I appreciate the articles. Btw, would you happen to be able to reveal if you're involved with or contacted for 4E freelance work, either Realms related or not, Eytan? Very little in the way of new freelance work for 4E has been contracted yet, but I think it's extremely likely that I will be involved in one way or another.
hawkinsthedm 08-21-07, 09:02 PM	Has anyone else noticed the the archived "Class Chronicles" (except the one from Aug 8th) has disappeared with the big server crash? I hope they will get put back up soon. If not, is there anyone who has downloaded them all? I would be pretty heartbroken if they were gone forever.:weep:
BadCatMan 08-21-07, 09:23 PM	I downloaded them, and I daresay Eytan has his copies. :) Almost everything prior to the new 4e website has vanished or is hard to access, but I assume they'll fix it eventually.
MerrikCale 08-21-07, 09:48 PM	I imagine they will fix the site at some point
BadCatMan 08-22-07, 01:24 AM	Ha! They're still there, just inaccessible from the main site. Google 'em. http://www.google.com.au/search?as_q=&hl=en&num=100&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=class+chronicles&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=www.wizards.com&as_rights=&safe=images
EytanBernstein 08-22-07, 02:11 PM	I downloaded them, and I daresay Eytan has his copies. :) Almost everything prior to the new 4e website has vanished or is hard to access, but I assume they'll fix it eventually. Actually, I don't. I was meaning to download them all, but I didn't have a chance. I'll use those google links and get myself copies.
hawkinsthedm 08-22-07, 02:18 PM	Actually, I don't. I was meaning to download them all, but I didn't have a chance. I'll use those google links and get myself copies. That makes me sad. :( Eytan, would you mind listing all of the article titles (I know that is asking a lot) just to make sure we download them all? Thanks again, Hawkins
hawkinsthedm 08-22-07, 02:22 PM	Multipost-Error Removed
hawkinsthedm 08-22-07, 02:24 PM	Multipost-Error Removed
Dark Wizard 08-22-07, 09:36 PM	Very little in the way of new freelance work for 4E has been contracted yet, but I think it's extremely likely that I will be involved in one way or another. That's good to hear. I hope to see more of your writing come the next edition.
EytanBernstein 08-22-07, 10:15 PM	That makes me sad. :( Eytan, would you mind listing all of the article titles (I know that is asking a lot) just to make sure we download them all? Thanks again, Hawkins I just realized something (a rather large brainfart on my part). You can get links to all the articles on my site - www.eytanbernstein.com/publications.htm
MerrikCale 08-22-07, 11:01 PM	I just realized something (a rather large brainfart on my part). You can get links to all the articles on my site - www.eytanbernstein.com/publications.htm s'ok. Its happens to the best of us and me as well. Thanks for the link though
hawkinsthedm 08-24-07, 04:54 PM	WotC_Mark made sure that the archives got restored today. Also, he told me that he thinks that there will be 3 more "Class Chronicles" articles and the next one should be up next Wednesday. :w00t:
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 08:41 PM	WotC_Mark made sure that the archives got restored today. Also, he told me that he thinks that there will be 3 more "Class Chronicles" articles and the next one should be up next Wednesday. :w00t: good to know. I know they have to do the ToB stuff, I know we haven't seen the Spirit Shaman (I'm hoping for an Osse connection).
EytanBernstein 08-25-07, 04:35 PM	good to know. I know they have to do the ToB stuff, I know we haven't seen the Spirit Shaman (I'm hoping for an Osse connection). The final article is going through Realmslore checking by our gurus, so all should be in order to finish up the series in the next month or so.
MerrikCale 08-25-07, 07:40 PM	The final article is going through Realmslore checking by our gurus, so all should be in order to finish up the series in the next month or so. can't wait, although with 4e looming who knows how many of these classes make the cut
EytanBernstein 08-25-07, 11:00 PM	can't wait, although with 4e looming who knows how many of these classes make the cut The lore should remain useful even if a class doesn't make it in. Tome of Battle lore could just as easily be used with other martial types, even if it doesn't make it in (and I don't know any more about that than you guys).
MerrikCale 08-25-07, 11:10 PM	The lore should remain useful even if a class doesn't make it in. Tome of Battle lore could just as easily be used with other martial types, even if it doesn't make it in (and I don't know any more about that than you guys). It will be interesting to see what new classes will make it into 4e. The warlock is a synch since its so popular. Others like the swashbuckler, scout and favored soul I personally like and hope make the grade. But what about the duskblade or dragon shaman or spellthief
Fabius Maximus 08-26-07, 08:28 AM	The way I'm reading the news on 4ed, none of the new classes will make it (thank the gods). Some of the designer (I think it was James Wyatt) said, the book was an early draft of how they'd alter combat in the next edition. So, probably some of ToB's features will be taken over, but the system as is won't.
Suin Bahhar 08-26-07, 09:43 AM	Yeah, I think martial classes will get weaponbased maneuvers. Maybe even racebased ones (I would love that). This could make a simple combat encounter between several goblin with some shadowhandlike trickery maneuvers vs a tricked out dwarf fighter with some racially influenced stonedragon style hammer moves very tactical. Oh Fabius, I think those extra classes like the favoured soul and scout will make it into 4e eventually (like in 2011 when 4.5 likely rears its head ;P). Integrating Tome of Battle now in my campaign at home. Its in Chessenta and I'm making the citystates armie generals and officers marshals and fighters who dip into warblade or crusader when given the title Hero of (for example) Akanax's Siege. This area is perfect for a warblades courtly intriges and search for glory.
MerrikCale 08-26-07, 10:49 AM	Yeah, I think martial classes will get weaponbased maneuvers. Maybe even racebased ones (I would love that). This could make a simple combat encounter between several goblin with some shadowhandlike trickery maneuvers vs a tricked out dwarf fighter with some racially influenced stonedragon style hammer moves very tactical. Oh Fabius, I think those extra classes like the favoured soul and scout will make it into 4e eventually (like in 2011 when 4.5 likely rears its head ;P). Integrating Tome of Battle now in my campaign at home. Its in Chessenta and I'm making the citystates armie generals and officers marshals and fighters who dip into warblade or crusader when given the title Hero of (for example) Akanax's Siege. This area is perfect for a warblades courtly intriges and search for glory. I would be shocked if the at least the Warlock didn't come over to 4e
Fabius Maximus 08-26-07, 12:42 PM	I think all the alternative classes will be represented by talent trees like in SW Saga. So we can expect warlock-like arcanists, scout-like Rangers, barbarian-like Fighters, and all that jazz. Since the ToB classes are meant to replace Fighter, Monk, and Paladin, they will not appear in 4ed, because they essentially fill the same niche. I don't think Wizards will rename the traditional classes. Much. The same goes for Favoured Soul and Sorcerer. Both are alternate clerics/wizards.
MerrikCale 08-26-07, 12:47 PM	I think all the alternative classes will be represented by talent trees like in SW Saga. So we can expect warlock-like arcanists, scout-like Rangers, barbarian-like Fighters, and all that jazz. Since the ToB classes are meant to replace Fighter, Monk, and Paladin, they will not appear in 4ed, because they essentially fill the same niche. I don't think Wizards will rename the traditional classes. Much. The same goes for Favoured Soul and Sorcerer. Both are alternate clerics/wizards. I find the favored soul, sorcerer and warlock to be different at its core from the cleric and wizard. Sure, a swashbuckler can be specialized fighter, the three classes I mentioned cast spells in a different way or even just have spell like abilities
hawkinsthedm 08-27-07, 11:09 AM	I would be shocked if the at least the Warlock didn't come over to 4e Chris Simms said something toward the beginning of the Doomsday thread about being able to play a Teifling Warlock. So I am pretty sure that the Warlock will make it.
hawkinsthedm 08-27-07, 11:11 AM	The way I'm reading the news on 4ed, none of the new classes will make it (thank the gods). Some of the designer (I think it was James Wyatt) said, the book was an early draft of how they'd alter combat in the next edition. So, probably some of ToB's features will be taken over, but the system as is won't. Unlike you, I believe that most everyone on this thread enjoyed the ToB. Look at the thread title. I would like to at least see some sort of ToB supplement for 4.0.
MerrikCale 08-27-07, 11:15 AM	Unlike you, I believe that most everyone on this thread enjoyed the ToB. Look at the thread title. I would like to at least see some sort of ToB supplement for 4.0. or some incorporation of ToB into 4e
MarkusTay63 08-27-07, 04:52 PM	I don't see a Tome of Battle happening for 4.0, because that tome was basically the prototype for the new way combat will work, so it would be redundant. Perhaps a tome bearing the same name, that expands on the system a year or so after the release of 4e is possible. Basically it all boils down to you either being an agile sneak, a fighter, a caster, or a healer - everything else are just specialized versions of those. seriously, how different would a fighter taking a few levels of druid be from a Ranger, if he chooses the right feats? With professions, Feats, PrCs and multiclassing, you can duplicate anything within those four. Add in the fact that they are going with skill-trees, and you can see the incredible amount of customization available by keeping the rules simple, yet full of options.
ElvenAvenger 08-30-07, 01:41 PM	It could possibly come in However on the topic of including ToB in the Forgotten realms ive thought of a couple of groups that can be used as discpline orinanted Shadow hand -Shadowmasters of thesk or the city of shade (ie a traiter) Desert Wind- The Bendine or the desert elves of the dust desert Iron Heart-Battle ragers Then classwise the swordsage is easy to use as a travling monk or hermet warblade as a gladiater and crusader as a miltiant arm of the church that does not have Palidians
hawkinsthedm 08-30-07, 06:26 PM	Eytan, I know in you The Tome (http://thetome.podbean.com/) show interview that you said that your material that you submit to WotC kinda disappears into a black whole (my paraphrasing) and you do not see it again until it is in its finished form. Even knowing this, can you maybe voice your fans' displeasure about the fact that they really want to see the rest of your "Class Chronicles" articles and there has not been any new one posted for 3 weeks? Thanks, Hawkins
MerrikCale 08-30-07, 07:48 PM	Eytan, I know in you The Tome show interview that you said that your material that you submit to WotC kinda disappears into a black whole (my paraphrasing) and you do not see it again until it is in its finished form. Even knowing this, can you maybe voice your fans' displeasure about the fact that they really want to see the rest of your "Class Chronicles" articles and there has not been any new one posted for 3 weeks? Thanks, Hawkins I've been waiting for months to see the ToB classes myself
EytanBernstein 08-31-07, 03:52 PM	Eytan, I know in you The Tome (http://thetome.podbean.com/) show interview that you said that your material that you submit to WotC kinda disappears into a black whole (my paraphrasing) and you do not see it again until it is in its finished form. Even knowing this, can you maybe voice your fans' displeasure about the fact that they really want to see the rest of your "Class Chronicles" articles and there has not been any new one posted for 3 weeks? Thanks, Hawkins As much as I like to see my work published, I am also aware of the vast amount of work being done by the web guys at the moment. They're aware of the desire to see the series finished. With the exception of the last article - which is going through Realmslore checking by our gurus - they've got most of it. Some of the last few articles are quite complex, however, so we should give them some time. Also, to put the interview discussion in context, I said that Wizards has made great strides in providing author feedback through a variety of means.
hawkinsthedm 09-11-07, 08:01 PM	After much waiting, it has arrived! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911) :D
Suin Bahhar 09-11-07, 08:26 PM	Wow!
BadCatMan 09-11-07, 09:35 PM	Woohoo! That's a lot of material. Was that the whole thing, or will there be more? This is all wonderful, but ToB is a whole lot more than just anime-stylings. And the Vast got some love! Much like what I posted on page 2. :D What date(s) would you put on Thallastam and the Nine Swords? My best estimate for his time was about a thousand years ago.
EytanBernstein 09-12-07, 02:44 AM	One quick correction that one of the readers noted. "Blademaster Borrobar Starlynskor (LG male Tethyrian warblade 7/master of nine 10)" - he can't have 10 levels in that PrC because it is only a 5-level PrC. Thus, he should read "Blademaster Borrobar Starlynskor (LG male Tethyrian warblade 12/master of nine 5)."
EytanBernstein 09-12-07, 02:45 AM	Woohoo! That's a lot of material. Was that the whole thing, or will there be more? This is all wonderful, but ToB is a whole lot more than just anime-stylings. And the Vast got some love! Much like what I posted on page 2. :D What date(s) would you put on Thallastam and the Nine Swords? My best estimate for his time was about a thousand years ago. That's the whole thing. Usually the articles are split up, but this one wasn't. It's definitely more than anime, but the aspects that are anime might be difficult for some game styles. I'm hesitant to put an exact date on Thallastam. You can check the link provided for more information about him.
Suin Bahhar 09-12-07, 07:04 AM	You deserve several feathers in your hat for this Eytan! Reshar lives!
MerrikCale 09-12-07, 08:19 AM	Wow! 'nuff said
EytanBernstein 09-12-07, 04:31 PM	You deserve several feathers in your hat for this Eytan! Reshar lives! Accepting donations of feathers (preferably Roc feathers, but I'll consider other types) as we speak.
Suin Bahhar 09-12-07, 05:16 PM	*sleight of hand* Look a nice one! *holds up the feather of an archon* Here. I loved the names for the styles. Ancestral Blade, Steel Lily, Blue Eagle, Dust Storm and the Penumbral Arc are particular winners. When did Reshar start collecting the sublime way styles? Before the Netheril times? Are we talking about a history of blademagic of several (ten)thousand years old?
EytanBernstein 09-13-07, 02:16 PM	*sleight of hand* Look a nice one! *holds up the feather of an archon* Here. I loved the names for the styles. Ancestral Blade, Steel Lily, Blue Eagle, Dust Storm and the Penumbral Arc are particular winners. When did Reshar start collecting the sublime way styles? Before the Netheril times? Are we talking about a history of blademagic of several (ten)thousand years old? I'm hesitant to give it an exact date. I'd rather leave it as a legend and let DMs decide where to place it depending on how they're using the material in their game.
BadCatMan 09-13-07, 08:53 PM	If no minds a spoilsport history buff, human occupation in the Vast isn't known before -255, when Jhaamdathan survivors settled in the southern Vast. Prior to that it was all Orc territory. If Reshar learnt White Raven in the Vast, then it had to be sometime during or after this. Well, unless he learnt it from the Orcs, who had a significant empire in Vastar before then. Or the Elves of Ylraphon, or even the Dwarves in the area. Picking up White Raven from ex-Jhaamdathan Imperial traditions would make sense. As would the psionic-flavoured Diamond Mind. An Orcish blademagic tradition would be interesting though, perhaps with White Raven sponsored by Ilneval. Anyway, I love this article and all the neat new flavour, which the original ToB lacked a bit.
EytanBernstein 09-14-07, 04:32 PM	If no minds a spoilsport history buff, human occupation in the Vast isn't known before -255, when Jhaamdathan survivors settled in the southern Vast. Prior to that it was all Orc territory. If Reshar learnt White Raven in the Vast, then it had to be sometime during or after this. Well, unless he learnt it from the Orcs, who had a significant empire in Vastar before then. Or the Elves of Ylraphon, or even the Dwarves in the area. Picking up White Raven from ex-Jhaamdathan Imperial traditions would make sense. As would the psionic-flavoured Diamond Mind. An Orcish blademagic tradition would be interesting though, perhaps with White Raven sponsored by Ilneval. Anyway, I love this article and all the neat new flavour, which the original ToB lacked a bit. Thanks. I tried to leave the dates of Reshar as a "vague past." It would be impossible to find any given single period of the past in the Realms that would allow for all the relevant history, so Reshar's past is more legendary. Perhaps he was immortal even, allowing to have lived through numerous ages.
hawkinsthedm 09-18-07, 06:36 PM	Eytan, Just where exactly is the continent/land mass of Osse? You mention it in a couple of your Class Chronicles articles, and for the life of me I cannot find it on any of the maps I have access to. Is it south of Zhakara or Kara-Tur? Somewhere in the middle south of the Utter East (which I think is a funny name because it actually is west of Kara-Tur, but I think the name is to distinguish it from the Unapproachable East)? Or south of Maztica? Thanks, Hawkins
hawkinsthedm 09-18-07, 06:38 PM	good to know. I know they have to do the ToB stuff, I know we haven't seen the Spirit Shaman (I'm hoping for an Osse connection). The Spirit Shaman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070918) has arrived as well! :D (And yes, it has a connection to Osse.)
MerrikCale 09-18-07, 08:59 PM	The Spirit Shaman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070918) has arrived as well! :D (And yes, it has a connection to Osse.) what do I win?
EytanBernstein 09-19-07, 03:19 AM	Eytan, Just where exactly is the continent/land mass of Osse? You mention it in a couple of your Class Chronicles articles, and for the life of me I cannot find it on any of the maps I have access to. Is it south of Zhakara or Kara-Tur? Somewhere in the middle south of the Utter East (which I think is a funny name because it actually is west of Kara-Tur, but I think the name is to distinguish it from the Unapproachable East)? Or south of Maztica? Thanks, Hawkins I don't recall seeing it on any maps. It's mentioned in Bruce Cordell's "Lady of Poison" novel for the Priests series.