Two Hand Axes? What am I thinking!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Two Hand Axes? What am I thinking!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Walls
03-17-07, 10:19 PM A tad inspired by NWN2, I am thinking of creating a character, a fighter style, that uses two (dual wield) hand axes as weapons and carries throwing axes. I was thinking, in the game, to start as a fighter and then go into Weapon Master for a bit. Maybe drow or duergar as I want to play through the game as chaotic evil this time.

In table top terms, what'd be a good way to go? This is obviously for flavor moreso then optimization. 3.5 isn't foreign to me but I am far from an expert like many on this board. Let's discuss, shall we?
Tetsubo
03-18-07, 03:27 AM I've been playing with a similar idea as of late. My idea was Human Fighter 4 to get all the feats I want, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec. maybe Two-weapon Defense. After that go Scout for the improved speed and extra damage with the Skirmish class ability. There is a Trait in the SRD that grants a +10 movement bonus for a cost of one lost HP per level. That would help crank up the characters speed. Improved Skirmish would also be a key feat, even more Skirmish damage... If you want to throw a lot of axes I also suggest Quick Draw and Far Shot (though you need other prereq feats for this). Personally I would skip the throwing axes and just use a short bow. This build works well with a high Dex and Weapon Finesse.
Tevin Kevlak
03-18-07, 04:27 AM I'd suggest foregoing the handaxes and just using throwing axes in melee. It is basically the same weapon but it's crit modifier is only x2 but then if you ever take any feats such as weapon focus or specialization then you can apply these bonuses not only to your ranged weapons but to your melee weapons aswell.
helicopter
03-18-07, 02:38 PM A tad inspired by NWN2, I am thinking of creating a character, a fighter style, that uses two (dual wield) hand axes as weapons and carries throwing axes. I was thinking, in the game, to start as a fighter and then go into Weapon Master for a bit. Maybe drow or duergar as I want to play through the game as chaotic evil this time.

In table top terms, what'd be a good way to go? This is obviously for flavor moreso then optimization. 3.5 isn't foreign to me but I am far from an expert like many on this board. Let's discuss, shall we?Keep in mind, Duergars are +1 ECL and have a favored class as Fighter. Drow are +2 and probably not a better race than Duergar for your character archetype.

Next, there's no Weapon Master PrC, but Comp. Warrior has the Exotic Weapon Master PrC (3 levels long) and you need a EWP feat to get in. Hand axes and throwing axes are not exotic, but a Dwarven Battleaxe is (and Duergars get it for free!).

Last, dual-wielding primary combatants don't have as much optimized combat capability as a THF or Sword-n-Board combatant. When going TWF, you are better off getting as much "damage additions" to your enhanced number of attacks (comparative to a THF or S&B fighter). You know, stuff like Sneak Attack damage or Divine Might damage.

My suggestion for you, is to go Duergar (+1 ECL) ... and to structure a hybrid Fighter/Rogue type build using Dwarven Battleaxe in one hand and either a spiked shield (for attacking), spiked armor (legal as an off-hand weapon in TWF fighting), or a light weapon that you can use with the Complete Warrior's various Tactical Feats for added benefits.

Fighter 2 / Rogue 3 / Nightsong Enforcer 4 / Ex. Weapon Master 3

That's 13 levels total (12 levels + 1 ECL). And you got a nice mix of stealth and high BAB capability.
Walls
03-18-07, 06:07 PM Thanks for the suggestions. I was looking way more for flavor then optimization. I only said weapons master because it is a PrC in NWN2.

I know the computer and table top games often do not mesh, was looking for something comparable. Thanks very much however, gives me some other good ideas!
Mad Mage
03-19-07, 01:58 AM Keep in mind, Duergars are +1 ECL and have a favored class as Fighter. Drow are +2 and probably not a better race than Duergar for your character archetype.

Next, there's no Weapon Master PrC, but Comp. Warrior has the Exotic Weapon Master PrC (3 levels long) and you need a EWP feat to get in. Hand axes and throwing axes are not exotic, but a Dwarven Battleaxe is (and Duergars get it for free!).

Last, dual-wielding primary combatants don't have as much optimized combat capability as a THF or Sword-n-Board combatant. When going TWF, you are better off getting as much "damage additions" to your enhanced number of attacks (comparative to a THF or S&B fighter). You know, stuff like Sneak Attack damage or Divine Might damage.

My suggestion for you, is to go Duergar (+1 ECL) ... and to structure a hybrid Fighter/Rogue type build using Dwarven Battleaxe in one hand and either a spiked shield (for attacking), spiked armor (legal as an off-hand weapon in TWF fighting), or a light weapon that you can use with the Complete Warrior's various Tactical Feats for added benefits.

Fighter 2 / Rogue 3 / Nightsong Enforcer 4 / Ex. Weapon Master 3

That's 13 levels total (12 levels + 1 ECL). And you got a nice mix of stealth and high BAB capability.

Duergar are not proficient in dwarven waraxes & dwarven urgroshes, so says both the (3.5 Edition) Monster Manual entry on them AND their entry in Underdark.
Wire
03-20-07, 05:43 PM Duergar are not proficient in dwarven waraxes & dwarven urgroshes, so says both the (3.5 Edition) Monster Manual entry on them AND their entry in Underdark.That's rediculous.

I'm almost certain there is an exception or variant rule to this. Perhaps in the Complete Warrior "Racial Weapons" section?
Mad Mage
03-20-07, 06:24 PM That's rediculous.

I'm almost certain there is an exception or variant rule to this. Perhaps in the Complete Warrior "Racial Weapons" section?

Not that I can see.

Let's not forget, Duergar are removed - both voluntarily and involuntarily - from the common culture of both Shield and Gold Dwarves.

The reasons behind such are not fully explained, but these are my best guesses:
1) Dwarven Waraxes and Urgroshes didn't come into prominence - if not into invention - until sometime after the Duergar sub-race came into existence. Therefor, as a general rule, this might explain why Duergar would teach such weapons as Exotic rather than Martial.

2) If they were existent back then, the Duergar associated said weapons with their Shield/Gold Dwarven kin and had forsaken them as a common weapon.

3) Seeing as Duergar are creatures more bent on toiling labor and less general input on damage-dealing, and despite their history of combat prowess, the duergar have found less association with weapons akin to other dwarves. Their patron, Laduger, ushers a need for Duergar to work constantly, mining, smithing, and overall crafting, as well as fighting against their neighbors in the Underdark.

4) Also, the Underdark is a very threatening place, so what's mentioned in idea 3 could also be necessary due to the necessity to survive overpowering the drive to devise or train with unique weaponry.

This is definite lore: pages 14, 16, and 20 of Races of Faerun mentions that Dwarven Waraxes and Urgroshes are mostly used by Gold Dwarves (and to almost equal extent by their northern kin, the Shield Dwarves) along with a bunch of more common types. As far as Duergar are concerned, they prefer weapons akin to their common labors, namely hammers and picks, as well as crossbows of sorts (likely hand crossbows).
Walls
03-20-07, 07:36 PM I got confused about that too. In NWN2 (never a good basis for D&D canon) Duergar automatically can use Dwarven Waraxes
Mad Mage
03-21-07, 02:42 AM I got confused about that too. In NWN2 (never a good basis for D&D canon) Duergar automatically can use Dwarven Waraxes

Meh, Icewind Dale 2 had Drow automatically proficient with Longswords and Longbows just like Moon Elves (which - at least by 3.5 Edition standards - should be racially proficient with rapiers, shortswords and hand crossbows). Go figure. :banghead:
Jenos_Idanian
03-22-07, 10:52 PM Next, there's no Weapon Master PrC

I beg to differ good sir, if you would open your copy of Sword and Fist to page 38 you will find the weapon master.
helicopter
03-22-07, 11:02 PM http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x

Per the WotC Rules Reference List I linked up above, the S&F Weapon Master PrC has been revised and renamed into the Comp Warrior's Exotic Weapon Master PrC as a part of the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion process.
Jenos_Idanian
03-25-07, 02:50 PM except of course that the only thing those two Prcs have in common are the words 'weapon master'

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Walls 03-17-07, 10:19 PM	A tad inspired by NWN2, I am thinking of creating a character, a fighter style, that uses two (dual wield) hand axes as weapons and carries throwing axes. I was thinking, in the game, to start as a fighter and then go into Weapon Master for a bit. Maybe drow or duergar as I want to play through the game as chaotic evil this time. In table top terms, what'd be a good way to go? This is obviously for flavor moreso then optimization. 3.5 isn't foreign to me but I am far from an expert like many on this board. Let's discuss, shall we?
Tetsubo 03-18-07, 03:27 AM	I've been playing with a similar idea as of late. My idea was Human Fighter 4 to get all the feats I want, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec. maybe Two-weapon Defense. After that go Scout for the improved speed and extra damage with the Skirmish class ability. There is a Trait in the SRD that grants a +10 movement bonus for a cost of one lost HP per level. That would help crank up the characters speed. Improved Skirmish would also be a key feat, even more Skirmish damage... If you want to throw a lot of axes I also suggest Quick Draw and Far Shot (though you need other prereq feats for this). Personally I would skip the throwing axes and just use a short bow. This build works well with a high Dex and Weapon Finesse.
Tevin Kevlak 03-18-07, 04:27 AM	I'd suggest foregoing the handaxes and just using throwing axes in melee. It is basically the same weapon but it's crit modifier is only x2 but then if you ever take any feats such as weapon focus or specialization then you can apply these bonuses not only to your ranged weapons but to your melee weapons aswell.
helicopter 03-18-07, 02:38 PM	A tad inspired by NWN2, I am thinking of creating a character, a fighter style, that uses two (dual wield) hand axes as weapons and carries throwing axes. I was thinking, in the game, to start as a fighter and then go into Weapon Master for a bit. Maybe drow or duergar as I want to play through the game as chaotic evil this time. In table top terms, what'd be a good way to go? This is obviously for flavor moreso then optimization. 3.5 isn't foreign to me but I am far from an expert like many on this board. Let's discuss, shall we?Keep in mind, Duergars are +1 ECL and have a favored class as Fighter. Drow are +2 and probably not a better race than Duergar for your character archetype. Next, there's no Weapon Master PrC, but Comp. Warrior has the Exotic Weapon Master PrC (3 levels long) and you need a EWP feat to get in. Hand axes and throwing axes are not exotic, but a Dwarven Battleaxe is (and Duergars get it for free!). Last, dual-wielding primary combatants don't have as much optimized combat capability as a THF or Sword-n-Board combatant. When going TWF, you are better off getting as much "damage additions" to your enhanced number of attacks (comparative to a THF or S&B fighter). You know, stuff like Sneak Attack damage or Divine Might damage. My suggestion for you, is to go Duergar (+1 ECL) ... and to structure a hybrid Fighter/Rogue type build using Dwarven Battleaxe in one hand and either a spiked shield (for attacking), spiked armor (legal as an off-hand weapon in TWF fighting), or a light weapon that you can use with the Complete Warrior's various Tactical Feats for added benefits. Fighter 2 / Rogue 3 / Nightsong Enforcer 4 / Ex. Weapon Master 3 That's 13 levels total (12 levels + 1 ECL). And you got a nice mix of stealth and high BAB capability.
Walls 03-18-07, 06:07 PM	Thanks for the suggestions. I was looking way more for flavor then optimization. I only said weapons master because it is a PrC in NWN2. I know the computer and table top games often do not mesh, was looking for something comparable. Thanks very much however, gives me some other good ideas!
Mad Mage 03-19-07, 01:58 AM	Keep in mind, Duergars are +1 ECL and have a favored class as Fighter. Drow are +2 and probably not a better race than Duergar for your character archetype. Next, there's no Weapon Master PrC, but Comp. Warrior has the Exotic Weapon Master PrC (3 levels long) and you need a EWP feat to get in. Hand axes and throwing axes are not exotic, but a Dwarven Battleaxe is (and Duergars get it for free!). Last, dual-wielding primary combatants don't have as much optimized combat capability as a THF or Sword-n-Board combatant. When going TWF, you are better off getting as much "damage additions" to your enhanced number of attacks (comparative to a THF or S&B fighter). You know, stuff like Sneak Attack damage or Divine Might damage. My suggestion for you, is to go Duergar (+1 ECL) ... and to structure a hybrid Fighter/Rogue type build using Dwarven Battleaxe in one hand and either a spiked shield (for attacking), spiked armor (legal as an off-hand weapon in TWF fighting), or a light weapon that you can use with the Complete Warrior's various Tactical Feats for added benefits. Fighter 2 / Rogue 3 / Nightsong Enforcer 4 / Ex. Weapon Master 3 That's 13 levels total (12 levels + 1 ECL). And you got a nice mix of stealth and high BAB capability. Duergar are not proficient in dwarven waraxes & dwarven urgroshes, so says both the (3.5 Edition) Monster Manual entry on them AND their entry in Underdark.
Wire 03-20-07, 05:43 PM	Duergar are not proficient in dwarven waraxes & dwarven urgroshes, so says both the (3.5 Edition) Monster Manual entry on them AND their entry in Underdark.That's rediculous. I'm almost certain there is an exception or variant rule to this. Perhaps in the Complete Warrior "Racial Weapons" section?
Mad Mage 03-20-07, 06:24 PM	That's rediculous. I'm almost certain there is an exception or variant rule to this. Perhaps in the Complete Warrior "Racial Weapons" section? Not that I can see. Let's not forget, Duergar are removed - both voluntarily and involuntarily - from the common culture of both Shield and Gold Dwarves. The reasons behind such are not fully explained, but these are my best guesses: 1) Dwarven Waraxes and Urgroshes didn't come into prominence - if not into invention - until sometime after the Duergar sub-race came into existence. Therefor, as a general rule, this might explain why Duergar would teach such weapons as Exotic rather than Martial. 2) If they were existent back then, the Duergar associated said weapons with their Shield/Gold Dwarven kin and had forsaken them as a common weapon. 3) Seeing as Duergar are creatures more bent on toiling labor and less general input on damage-dealing, and despite their history of combat prowess, the duergar have found less association with weapons akin to other dwarves. Their patron, Laduger, ushers a need for Duergar to work constantly, mining, smithing, and overall crafting, as well as fighting against their neighbors in the Underdark. 4) Also, the Underdark is a very threatening place, so what's mentioned in idea 3 could also be necessary due to the necessity to survive overpowering the drive to devise or train with unique weaponry. This is definite lore: pages 14, 16, and 20 of Races of Faerun mentions that Dwarven Waraxes and Urgroshes are mostly used by Gold Dwarves (and to almost equal extent by their northern kin, the Shield Dwarves) along with a bunch of more common types. As far as Duergar are concerned, they prefer weapons akin to their common labors, namely hammers and picks, as well as crossbows of sorts (likely hand crossbows).
Walls 03-20-07, 07:36 PM	I got confused about that too. In NWN2 (never a good basis for D&D canon) Duergar automatically can use Dwarven Waraxes
Mad Mage 03-21-07, 02:42 AM	I got confused about that too. In NWN2 (never a good basis for D&D canon) Duergar automatically can use Dwarven Waraxes Meh, Icewind Dale 2 had Drow automatically proficient with Longswords and Longbows just like Moon Elves (which - at least by 3.5 Edition standards - should be racially proficient with rapiers, shortswords and hand crossbows). Go figure. :banghead:
Jenos_Idanian 03-22-07, 10:52 PM	Next, there's no Weapon Master PrC I beg to differ good sir, if you would open your copy of Sword and Fist to page 38 you will find the weapon master.
helicopter 03-22-07, 11:02 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x Per the WotC Rules Reference List I linked up above, the S&F Weapon Master PrC has been revised and renamed into the Comp Warrior's Exotic Weapon Master PrC as a part of the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion process.
Jenos_Idanian 03-25-07, 02:50 PM	except of course that the only thing those two Prcs have in common are the words 'weapon master'