Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Diffan 08-01-07, 09:10 AM	Ok, 1st- there are warforged in my Realms campaigns. I don't know if it's cannon (I'd assume not), but I like the race so I allowed them in. They're history on Toril sorta goes like this. The first warforged were created by Netherese at the height of they're empire. Though they didn't look like the warforged currently on Toril today, they were very simular. The conclaves created them for defense and shock troops against other warring enclaves, but because magic destroyed them as easily as normal fodder, there was really no point in making more. As time went, they put them away in storage. There, deep with the conclaves floating cities they remained. When Netheril fell from power in -339 DR, so too did the warforged race. A thousand years later, the race would once again grace Toril's soil when a Spell-Jammer starship crash landed off the coast of Lantan. Believing it was a gift from Gond, the Lantanese studied the ship and the remains of the crew and devised a way to create more. Once production started, they came to understand they're mistake. The warforged were sentient beings, not mindless robots and the first hundred or so completed warforged led a revolt which led to half of their numbers dead and twice that of the Lantanese. Driven into the sea, they swam (since warforged need no air or sleep) and continued until they came to a remote island west of Lantan and Chult called Trident. This island has three large volcanic mountains that jut up into the Toril sky with a distinct pattern resembling it's namesake. Since then, they've survived in relative safety and peace. Using the island's natural barriers to turn away the most curious of ships, they've kept mostly to themselves, afraid of how Faerun's populace would react to them. For a few, this life of mediocrity is what pushes them away and in search of a life of adventure. Now that they're history is somewhat based, it's known that they can advance in any base class. Druids, as you know, must have a patron deity. Would it be a long shot for them to worship Gond as they're patron deity, being living constructs and all. Also, would it be a fair bet that any Warforged druid would look somewhat like a transformer when it wild-shaped? I don't think it's that far feteched considering they're made of metal, and that they're wild shape would be that of a metal animal, all stats of the animal including the living construct sub-type? Thanks for reading. Even if im way off base, at least I added a nice story! :) -Diffan
LordNightwinter 08-01-07, 09:46 AM	You know, this is similar to the history I created for Warforged in my campaign. This is the short version. Warforged in Forgotten Realms Warforged originated from Lantan, originally created by gondsmen to serve as guardians, shock troopers and servants. For years they served as the front line in a long and exhausting battle between Gond and Thay but in more recent years the topic of warforged being a sentient race and deserving freedom has sprung up. The debate over this had gone strong for years until one pivotal point. A single Warforged managed to save up the same amount of money his master had paid to purchase him and subsequently requested to purchase himself. In that same month it was ruled that whether the Warforged have a soul or not they were sentient beings and had the right to their freedom. This freedom, however, was and still is a strange concept to most Warforged. The name of their people alone is a grim reminder of why they were first conceived. Having been granted the ability to choose their own destiny most Warforged took up their former jobs not as unpaid machines or objects but as valued employees. While they are rare in the Forgotten Realms to the existence of only two creation forges. Their race is known for their tenacity and hard work ethic, however to some the Warforged are merely machines or objects to be owned or exploited. Most people will not have heard much about the Warforged so they may be afraid or suspicious. Relations with other races are usually strained at best because of the fact that they are all relatively new to the world. Most Warforged have not been alive for more than ten years. Above all else Warforged loathe being compaired to golems. Creation Forges The forge of Gond has long since been deactivated officially however there are rumors that it has been used on occasion to create a new Warforged or experiment with different types of Warforged. The second forge is run in secret by the first Warforged that bought his own freedom, Carver. While his intentions are not known he has put a call out to all Warforged that wish to join him in creating a civilization of their own.
Diffan 08-01-07, 10:12 AM	Very nice. I like how Carver liberated himself :).
Suin Bahhar 08-01-07, 10:47 AM	With the new wildshaping rules in place the warforged druid would keep his own warforged immunities when in an animal form (he remains the same type, i.e. living contruct). So visually they would resemble metal and wooden animals. Gond would be perfect as a god for these druids. But... Druids can only use their powers when not wearing metal armor. You would have to make a completely wooden warforged to circumvent this problem. Good material would be duskwood or some other tropical hardwood because of its hardness. Maybe these gond worshipping druids found a way around this limitation through forming a differing natural theory from the greener dieties. I guess the best solution would be to limit these druids to the cleric class and give these some kind of Gond heresy cult with granted powers like druids (i.e. wildshape or shapechange spells, construct empathy, construct companion, electricity immunity or somesuch).
Diffan 08-01-07, 11:34 AM	With the new wildshaping rules in place the warforged druid would keep his own warforged immunities when in an animal form (he remains the same type, i.e. living contruct). So visually they would resemble metal and wooden animals. Gond would be perfect as a god for these druids. But... Druids can only use their powers when not wearing metal armor. You would have to make a completely wooden warforged to circumvent this problem. Good material would be duskwood or some other tropical hardwood because of its hardness. Maybe these gond worshipping druids found a way around this limitation through forming a differing natural theory from the greener dieties. I guess the best solution would be to limit these druids to the cleric class and give these some kind of Gond heresy cult with granted powers like druids (i.e. wildshape or shapechange spells, construct empathy, construct companion, electricity immunity or somesuch). Hmmmm....I didn't know that, thanks for pointing that out. I'll work on it once I get some sleep.
Deekin 08-01-07, 06:28 PM	Hmmmm....I didn't know that, thanks for pointing that out. I'll work on it once I get some sleep. Ironwood body, from Races of Eberron.
LordNightwinter 08-02-07, 10:49 AM	Very nice. I like how Carver liberated himself :). Carver was the first Warforged I made in Faerun. I played the scenario out myself then made him a rather successful adventurer. My DM was expecting me to kill my owner or sneak away. Then I became the DM later and implemented the Warforged race.
Karsus the Mad 08-02-07, 10:59 AM	Gond can have druids?
ShadezofDis 08-02-07, 12:23 PM	Gond can have druids? AFAIK there's no canon allowance for a Druid of Gond. Personally, I'd find it much more likely that the PC would be a cleric of Gond, as constructs don't jive with nature. But, as much as I might not find it reasonable, that doesn't mean these guys shouldn't do it. :)
Diffan 08-02-07, 12:51 PM	Alternate Class Feature: Gond's Transformation Level: 1st, warforged only. Replaces: If you select this class feature, you can no longer spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally and must remove that spells from your druid's spell list. Benefit: You may apply metal armor to your body and still cast spells from the druid spell list as well as continue to use your supernatural and/or spell-like abilities. Any gear worn or carried by the druid transforms into the new form and becomes nonfunctional as normal.
ShadezofDis 08-02-07, 01:02 PM	Alternate Class Feature: Gond's Transformation Level: 1st, warforged only. Replaces: If you select this class feature, you can no longer spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally and must remove that spells from your druid's spell list. Benefit: You may apply metal armor to your body and still cast spells from the druid spell list as well as continue to use your supernatural and/or spell-like abilities. Any gear worn or carried by the druid transforms into the new form and becomes nonfunctional as normal. Eh, still doesn't handle the problem that Gond isn't served by druids, nor, according to cannon, would even desire to be served by druids. I wouldn't see it as a huge problem to change this to a alternative cleric class feature, replacing the ability to spontaneously cast heal spells and turning ability with an ability to shape change into an animal form (or other construct forms). Further, I'm pretty sure Mielikki allows her druids to wear metal armor. . . ah, I found it, her clerics and druids may wear and use weapons and armor available to rangers.
Diffan 08-02-07, 02:25 PM	Eh, still doesn't handle the problem that Gond isn't served by druids, nor, according to cannon, would even desire to be served by druids. Warforged isn't cannon in the realms either, but they're in mine. Also I can't see why Gond, looking down on his living-construct children, wouldn't grand them spells just because they're path ventured towards nature while they still prayed to him. I wouldn't see it as a huge problem to change this to a alternative cleric class feature, replacing the ability to spontaneously cast heal spells and turning ability with an ability to shape change into an animal form (or other construct forms). Further, I'm pretty sure Mielikki allows her druids to wear metal armor. . . ah, I found it, her clerics and druids may wear and use weapons and armor available to rangers. While I'm sure, there maybe a sparse handful of warforged devoted to Mielikki, maybe 1% of the overall population, they haven't been on Faerun long enough to be exposed to the mass variety of Deities out there. Most of the warforged only know Gond because that was the overall god they were exposed to before they're revolt on Lantan. When they founded they're island, they used the natural resources to create a new life for them. Some have fashioned a love for the abundant nature on the island and worshiped Gond for it's natural resources to craft and sculpt a new civilization. Besides what deity, except Ao, doesn't want a few hundred explicidly devouted followers who give him praise and love for no other reason than existance?
ShadezofDis 08-02-07, 02:38 PM	First off, I don't intend to offend, nor do I want to change the way you play the realms, I'm just supplying my opinions on the subject. :) Warforged isn't cannon in the realms either, but they're in mine. Also I can't see why Gond, looking down on his living-construct children, wouldn't grand them spells just because they're path ventured towards nature while they still prayed to him. Yep, warforged aren't realms canon, nothing wrong with including them, nor in changing anything within the realms. However, I see it a much more viable solution to make them clerics rather than druids. The only reason I see for wanting druids of gond is so you get the wild shape ability, not for any thematic reason that I can see. While I'm sure, there maybe a sparse handful of warforged devoted to Mielikki, maybe 1% of the overall population, they haven't been on Faerun long enough to be exposed to the mass variety of Deities out there. Most of the warforged only know Gond because that was the overall god they were exposed to before they're revolt on Lantan. When they founded they're island, they used the natural resources to create a new life for them. Some have fashioned a love for the abundant nature on the island and worshiped Gond for it's natural resources to craft and sculpt a new civilization. Besides what deity, except Ao, doesn't want a few hundred explicidly devouted followers who give him praise and love for no other reason than existance? I'm not saying that Gond wouldn't want them as followers, nor that Gond would mind them having a reverence for nature. What I am saying is that Gond is not and has not been a nature diety, he's an inherently technological diety, which fits really well with the warforged but since technological advancement relies upon civilization it really seems to me that Gond would not want, nor would sponser druids. Now, if you were to work with the idea of a heretical faith, one that venerates Gond as a nature god and as technology as an inherently natural property (which isn't all that far fetched if you're coming from a constructs view of the world) then, as a DM, I'd say "well that's fair enough" but, again, as far as canon is concerned Gond isn't interested in druids.
Diffan 08-02-07, 03:35 PM	First off, I don't intend to offend, nor do I want to change the way you play the realms, I'm just supplying my opinions on the subject. :) It's cool, man. I wasn't offended :) Yep, warforged aren't realms canon, nothing wrong with including them, nor in changing anything within the realms. However, I see it a much more viable solution to make them clerics rather than druids. The only reason I see for wanting druids of gond is so you get the wild shape ability, not for any thematic reason that I can see. Its really a matter of ignorance. Since most of the population doesn't have a clue about other deities, they venerate him in their many vocations. While it's rare, LG warforged paladins give prayers to the wonderbringer to focus they're divine powers for good and the smiting of evil. Though it's not known if Gond grants these powers as the other gods do or if they mainfest themselves through the character's own force of will, they are still there. I'm not saying that Gond wouldn't want them as followers, nor that Gond would mind them having a reverence for nature. What I am saying is that Gond is not and has not been a nature diety, he's an inherently technological diety, which fits really well with the warforged but since technological advancement relies upon civilization it really seems to me that Gond would not want, nor would sponser druids. Now, if you were to work with the idea of a heretical faith, one that venerates Gond as a nature god and as technology as an inherently natural property (which isn't all that far fetched if you're coming from a constructs view of the world) then, as a DM, I'd say "well that's fair enough" but, again, as far as canon is concerned Gond isn't interested in druids. That's somewhat the angle I was going for. Much like an elven character who's a druid or ranger but still worships Corellon because he's preceived as the over-all god of elves.
LordNightwinter 08-02-07, 06:21 PM	Not to try and derail your train of thought but I don't really see druids of gond ether. I agree with the fact that because they haven't known anything else they would start by linking up with Gond. However, that said if they do venture out and there are a few that go adventuring I can also see the warforged race interracting with other races out there. Druids are (usually) very accepting people if the person in question respects nature (with some notable exceptions). I would be more inclined to believe that ether a warforged druid would come in contact with an outsider that has heard of the deity 'or' researched the subject of detities himself because of the fact that he doesn't understand the subject.
GothicDan 08-03-07, 12:32 AM	And note that the majority of Elven Druids and to a lesser extent Rangers worship Rillifane and Solonor first and foremost, and various other members of the Seldarine as second. Corellon represents Elven society's ties with nature, not so much nature itself.
Diffan 08-03-07, 08:18 AM	And note that the majority of Elven Druids and to a lesser extent Rangers worship Rillifane and Solonor first and foremost, and various other members of the Seldarine as second. Corellon represents Elven society's ties with nature, not so much nature itself. I agree, but to a race as long lived and established like the elves, with a multitude of Deities to choose from that all have a specific portfolio and domains it's easy to specify. If the elves didn't have a plethora of gods, most assured there would be more elven druids devoted to Corellon if only for a lack of a better choice. Granted, there isn't a lack of a better choice, but most warforged don't know that. For the most part, they became druids before they even left the island. What I'm saying is that Gond wouldn't answer prayers of non-warforged druids and rangers. That it's because of their race, is why he's granting them divine powers. How many other discrepencies are there through out Faerun that involve deities and classes? Paladin's of Selune and Sune anyone? All I'm saying is that, no it's not normal that Gond would have druidic worshippers, but in a special case such as this it could be considered under the circumstances.
ShadezofDis 08-03-07, 10:30 AM	Alright, lets see if I can articulate this accurately :) So, if the Warforged worshiped Gond exclusively, even if they went to an island untouched by sentient beings, I don't see Gond leading them towards a druidic path. I can certainly see Gond granting the truly devout among them divine abilities but not druidic abilities. I guess I could see an argument for something along these lines; Warforged leave Lathan and arrive on island X. The warforged worship Gond as "the Father" or what have you. The warforged worship the island (which would be worshiping Chauntea) as "the Mother/the Nurturer" Since the warforged are a small number they are left relatively alone by both Gond and Chauntea while they develop their own society based upon the reverence of the existing technological properties they find on the island (the engineering behind nest building, web building, anatomy, ect). After X amount of years this style of worship "breaks through" into a druidic type faith, based upon the protection and advancement of naturally occurring technological type wonders and upon bringing "civilized technology" (such as they saw upon Lathan) into harmony with "natural technology" (a wedding of the faith of Gond and the faith of Chauntea) When Gond and Chauntea become aware of this phenomina they are first somewhat disturbed by it but after some examination begin to see the beauty inherent in the warforged practices and fully embrace this unique style of worship (well, probably not unique but unique in a societal sense) Basically, what I'm saying, is that as an exclusively Gond based faith there would be no reason for druidic worship. If you throw a nature deity into the mix then you have yourself a justification for druidic worship. Gond may like nature, may see the beauty in it and all that jazz but he's never been particularly interested in the protection of nature, point in fact it's stated quite clearly that he cares about inventing and doesn't care about the consequences of releasing his inventions into the world. That doesn't jive with druidic worship in the least. I would also suggest having there be a battle between the warforged more devout to Gond and the warforged more devout to Chauntea and this being the impetus for Gond and Chauntea noticing this particular society and when they pay attention to it they come to an agreement that weds their followers into the current society. Perhaps come up with the legend of the first warforged "techo-druid" who spoke the true warforged faith to the peoples. Phew, I'm done rambling for the moment :)
Diffan 08-03-07, 04:01 PM	I would also suggest having there be a battle between the warforged more devout to Gond and the warforged more devout to Chauntea and this being the impetus for Gond and Chauntea noticing this particular society and when they pay attention to it they come to an agreement that weds their followers into the current society. Perhaps come up with the legend of the first warforged "techo-druid" who spoke the true warforged faith to the peoples. So how are they supposed to come to understand and follow Chauntea? Maybe some divine intervention like a sign or visit with her avatar? But I do like where your going with this. Warforged leave Lathan and arrive on island X. Oh, sorry i forgot to tell you the island's name. It's called Trident for it's 3 large mountains (inactive volcanos). They thrust up through the ridgeline, with the middle volcano some 483 ft higher than the other 2, giving it a trident look. The current size of the island is extreamly close to that of Oahu. It's highest elevation is 14,711 ft. and it's reef, which is extreamly sharp, surrounds the island except for a 6 mile stretch along the eastern coast. If I knew how to post pictuers, i'd show you where it's located but it's 120 miles west-south west of the Mother of Mists islands in the Trackless Sea. For those of you who have the old 2e atlas map it's found at the intersection of M8 or here..... http://www.fictionalworlds.com/ForgotRealms/races/atlasmap.jpg
ShadezofDis 08-03-07, 07:44 PM	So how are they supposed to come to understand and follow Chauntea? Maybe some divine intervention like a sign or visit with her avatar? But I do like where your going with this. Through their reverence for the island itself (which is Chauntea, remember, Chauntea is (usually) actually physically one with Toril, she may in fact BE Toril but since F&P says "Chauntea rarely manifests herself in physical form, preferring to diffuse her essence throughout the living land of Toril") they could develop an abiding love for the island itself, worshiping it as a "mother" type figure with Gond being the "father" type figure. Perhaps it could have started with a single warforged who originally became impressed with the staggering achievements made by creatures that can't be called "civilized" in the humanoid sense. This warforged could have spent years wandering the island, examining the life, watching the cycles and starting to understand how life on the island is really just one large machine called life. Without the nests then the birds would die out, which would cause a large spike in the insect population, which would devour some of the plant life faster than the plant life could reproduce, which would mean food shortages for other animals who depend upon those plants, ect ect ect Through this love for the mother his devotion would eventually reach Chauntea and she would find such a creature, a construct with no real place in the world but a true love for the world, to be so wonderful that she would accept his reverence and worship and would be likely to grant him divine powers (not that it would happen as a "OMG, I'm a 1st level druid of Chauntea now!" but as a "Through prayer and meditation the warforged started to truely feel his connection to the land, the breath of life all around. He could pick out the beetles scuttling upon the ground, the sparrows flying through the trees, the lizards and squirrels, etc." which would be a first casting of a detect spell or something) This warforged could have then returned to the town/village/whatever the other warforged were at and started to speak of the wonders of nature, of the intricacies and gained a following. Well, I have to go now, but hopefully I can finish this train of thought later, I think you can see where it's going. :) Oh, and thanks, I can usually think my way around things I don't like (ToT anyone?) so I'm well practiced in finding reasonable ways for completely unreasonable things happenings (like Mask getting bamboozled by a few rather dumb mortals)
Diffan 08-05-07, 12:11 PM	Through their reverence for the island itself (which is Chauntea, remember, Chauntea is (usually) actually physically one with Toril, she may in fact BE Toril but since F&P says "Chauntea rarely manifests herself in physical form, preferring to diffuse her essence throughout the living land of Toril") they could develop an abiding love for the island itself, worshiping it as a "mother" type figure with Gond being the "father" type figure. Perhaps it could have started with a single warforged who originally became impressed with the staggering achievements made by creatures that can't be called "civilized" in the humanoid sense. This warforged could have spent years wandering the island, examining the life, watching the cycles and starting to understand how life on the island is really just one large machine called life. Without the nests then the birds would die out, which would cause a large spike in the insect population, which would devour some of the plant life faster than the plant life could reproduce, which would mean food shortages for other animals who depend upon those plants, ect ect ect Through this love for the mother his devotion would eventually reach Chauntea and she would find such a creature, a construct with no real place in the world but a true love for the world, to be so wonderful that she would accept his reverence and worship and would be likely to grant him divine powers (not that it would happen as a "OMG, I'm a 1st level druid of Chauntea now!" but as a "Through prayer and meditation the warforged started to truely feel his connection to the land, the breath of life all around. He could pick out the beetles scuttling upon the ground, the sparrows flying through the trees, the lizards and squirrels, etc." which would be a first casting of a detect spell or something) This warforged could have then returned to the town/village/whatever the other warforged were at and started to speak of the wonders of nature, of the intricacies and gained a following. That's really an awesome idea. Though, they might not know her name as Chauntea, but as an earth mother, and give praises on the land its self. Thanks for helping out!
ShadezofDis 08-05-07, 01:09 PM	That's really an awesome idea. Though, they might not know her name as Chauntea, but as an earth mother, and give praises on the land its self. Thanks for helping out! No problem and I don't think they really would know Chauntea's name, she doesn't really care what her worshipers call her (the prime example being the Moonshae's, where she's known as the Great Mother or something like that, I'm not terribly well read on the Moonshae). Personally, I think it'd be appropriate for them to just view their deity as the island itself. And, they could view the dormant volcanoes as a holy site of the wedding of the faith of the island and the faith of the father. (I don't think they should worship Gond as Gond, by the by, I'll get into my thoughts about that later) The mother because it's the island, the father because they could use some of the hot vents in the volcanoes to smelt/work metal and the wedding of the faiths because using the vents for metal working leaves no real need for taking the trees of the island. And thanks, I like the society the more I think about it, I'm just not a big fan of warforged (though that could just be due to my VAST ignorance about them *g*)
pbs 08-05-07, 10:44 PM	Now that they're history is somewhat based, it's known that they can advance in any base class. Druids, as you know, must have a patron deity. Would it be a long shot for them to worship Gond as they're patron deity, being living constructs and all. Also, would it be a fair bet that any Warforged druid would look somewhat like a transformer when it wild-shaped? I don't think it's that far fetched considering they're made of metal, and that they're wild shape would be that of a metal animal, all stats of the animal including the living construct sub-type? Thanks for reading. Even if I'm way off base, at least I added a nice story! how about instead of being druids let them be clerics and the get shapshifting ability with a feat or where players choose a animal and then pay an aritficer to get "reconfigured"
Diffan 08-06-07, 12:26 PM	how about instead of being druids let them be clerics and the get shapshifting ability with a feat or where players choose a animal and then pay an aritficer to get "reconfigured" That's also a good idea, but the problem I see with that is that there already is a base class with the ability of shapeshifting. I find it a lot easier to wrap RPing theories and ideas around existing rules, instead of the other way around. Also, what would you be switching in place of the shapeshifting ability?
pbs 08-06-07, 08:08 PM	honestly after some thought how i would do it in my campaign. A warforge paladin could with good balance, instead of taking a mount, be altered to transform into an animal from the mount table.it would be a non-magical effect, purely mechanical.
ShadezofDis 08-07-07, 12:16 AM	That's also a good idea, but the problem I see with that is that there already is a base class with the ability of shapeshifting. I find it a lot easier to wrap RPing theories and ideas around existing rules, instead of the other way around. Also, what would you be switching in place of the shapeshifting ability? I wouldn't see it as a huge problem to change this to a alternative cleric class feature, replacing the ability to spontaneously cast heal spells and turning ability with an ability to shape change into an animal form (or other construct forms). I'd solicit opinions from the core boards to see if people felt that losing turning and spontaneous casting would balance shape shifting. And really, I'll be posting more thoughts on the wedding of a nature faith with a Gond faith, I just haven't gotten that far yet. ;)
Mordayn 08-07-07, 06:54 AM	You also have the urban druid from dragon compendium, which doesn't need a nature dity as a patron. They can wild shape into urban critters and some constructs instead of animals, and the spell list is an amalgam of druid and bard.
Diffan 08-07-07, 09:20 PM	I'd solicit opinions from the core boards to see if people felt that losing turning and spontaneous casting would balance shape shifting. I don't know if it would be worth the Turn/Rebuke ability. It's the only ability Clerics get. It might be worth spontaneously casting cure/inflict spells because you can take a feat to regain that ability. And really, I'll be posting more thoughts on the wedding of a nature faith with a Gond faith, I just haven't gotten that far yet. ;) Well, your posts and thoughts are well appreciated and insighful. At first this was just a fanciful idea that turned into so much more. You also have the urban druid from dragon compendium, which doesn't need a nature dity as a patron. They can wild shape into urban critters and some constructs instead of animals, and the spell list is an amalgam of druid and bard. hmm....I don't have the dragon compendium, but i'll look for it in the store and search out other druid alternate class features.