Post/Author/DateTime	Post
human_male 12-30-07, 02:06 AM	Hi there. Is there a derogatory name drow have for surface elves? I seem to recall in the opening of Hoards of the Underdark the Valkaresh calling me (I was an elf) something but I can't remember what it was. Does anyone know? Thank you kindly.
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 09:39 AM	-They bitterly call them 'Darthiir', which means 'Faerie Elves', 'Surface Elves', and 'Traitors'.
DarkRhystar 12-30-07, 01:26 PM	Iblith - carrion. ;)
GreenKnight 12-30-07, 04:47 PM	What do drow call surface elves? Asshats. Wait, you're talking about the DROW term, not mine. Nevermind, then.
Zanan 12-30-07, 04:56 PM	-They bitterly call them 'Darthiir', which means 'Faerie Elves', 'Surface Elves', and 'Traitors'. I'm impressed! Then again, I doubt they do it "bitterly" ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-30-07, 06:11 PM	Iblith - carrion. ;) I thought iblith meant "sh*t".
Green Elven Vampire 12-30-07, 06:56 PM	I thought iblith meant "sh*t". Yeah, it means offal.
Suin Bahhar 12-30-07, 07:04 PM	Those drow have a twisted sense of humor :rofl:
human_male 12-30-07, 07:38 PM	Darthiir was what I was after, thanks very much.
DM_Kelaos 12-30-07, 08:44 PM	Psst. Where do they say "Darthiir" it sounds like something from Warhammer...? And yeah, Iblith does mean offal, excrement, or other terms refering to dung, and since they call lots of other races they'd probably also use that.... Then again, it seems they call everything iblith.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-30-07, 09:15 PM	Yeah, anything that isn't drow is likely to be called "iblith".:)
MerrikCale 12-30-07, 09:37 PM	whats the drow term for "pantload"?
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 10:07 PM	I'm impressed! Then again, I doubt they do it "bitterly" ;) -Of course they do. They say most things bitterly. They are a very bitter people. They are still harping on, and fussing about events that happened nearly ten thousand years ago. whats the drow term for "pantload"? -What does that even mean?
18DELTA 12-31-07, 09:45 AM	-What does that even mean? A pant load of crud, maybe...or well something else?;) :P :D
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 10:18 AM	-Gotcha.
Zanan 12-31-07, 10:34 AM	-Of course they do. They say most things bitterly. They are a very bitter people. They are still harping on, and fussing about events that happened nearly ten thousand years ago. Hardly. They just hate the elves because every day of their life they are in a survival fight (if you believe the books on the drow, especially the Core ones) which, in their opinion, is a direct result of Elven betrayal. On Toril, the surface elves forced the dark elves into the Underdark ... and the latter have every reason to hate their "cousins" for that, every day of their life. It is a bit of a joke that the surface elves are portrayed in a way the drow should actually behave, for they hate the drow with as much fervor as vice versa. So it is actually them who have some paranoia with a past 10,000 years+ back. Unless they are/were all suffering from the constant (i.e. once every 50 to 100 years or so) attacks of the drow on some remote surface elven settlement.
MerrikCale 12-31-07, 10:37 AM	- -What does that even mean? what 18Delta said
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 10:40 AM	Hardly. They just hate the elves because every day of their life they are in a survival fight (if you believe the books on the drow, especially the Core ones) which, in their opinion, is a direct result of Elven betrayal. On Toril, the surface elves forced the dark elves into the Underdark ... and the latter have every reason to hate their "cousins" for that, every day of their life. It is a bit of a joke that the surface elves are portrayed in a way the drow should actually behave, for they hate the drow with as much fervor as vice versa. So it is actually them who have some paranoia with a past 10,000 years+ back. Unless they are/were all suffering from the constant (i.e. once every 50 to 100 years or so) attacks of the drow on some remote surface elven settlement. -None of that refutes what I said. The Drow, as a people, are bitter, and harp over events that took place thousands of years ago.
18DELTA 12-31-07, 10:43 AM	-None of that refutes what I said. The Drow, as a people, are bitter, and harp over events that took place thousands of years ago. I think that they really need to see a shrink, and let it go.:P
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 10:45 AM	I think that they really need to see a shrink, and let it go.:P -I, personally, hate people like that. One of the reasons why I have so many problems with my mother. I joke around about it, but half of the time, it's dead accurate- only her hate (for my biological father) sustains her. If my father didn't exist, and she didn't have all of that hatred in her, I really don't know what she would be like.
Alediran 12-31-07, 11:19 AM	-I, personally, hate people like that. One of the reasons why I have so many problems with my mother. I joke around about it, but half of the time, it's dead accurate- only her hate (for my biological father) sustains her. If my father didn't exist, and she didn't have all of that hatred in her, I really don't know what she would be like. I'm sure she will simply vanish because she will not have a purpose.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 11:23 AM	-Like a ghost. -Then I'll be an adult orphan...:(
Kenzuki 12-31-07, 09:43 PM	I personally think that we need to set the top drow and surface leaders down in a room with no weapons or magical powers allowed and have Dr. Phil come in to counsel them. I bet you 1,000g that they will automatically forget their differences and come together for a common good......namely killing Dr. Phil.
Zanan 01-01-08, 06:48 AM	-None of that refutes what I said. The Drow, as a people, are bitter, and harp over events that took place thousands of years ago. Events that have a relevance to their daily life today. So they are hardly "bitter" over the events 10,000 years ago as such, rather have a real point in harassing elves where-ever they find them up to this day. These days, you can actually argue whether the drow as a race are "bitter" over these events, since they consider themselves as being better than anyone because of the trials and tribulations they were put through ... Well, it all depends on the point of view.
Pyrogen 01-01-08, 11:37 AM	Both races have inbuilt prejudices against the other brought about by the events of the Crown Wars. All of these have their basis in fact but have been manipulated by certain parties, like the priesthood of Lolth, to make the other side appear the bad guys. So it is true that a Sun elf realm (Aryvaandar) invaded a dark elf realm that rivalled them for magical prowess and ultimately destroyed it. It is true that the surface elves called upon their god, Corellon, to aid them in dealing with the aggression of the dark elves (Illythiir)and their corrupt demon inspired power. It is true that through a high magic ritual the dark elves were transformed/cursed and cast down. This affected all dark elves, not just the corrupt/evil ones. As a result all drow, even those who reject Lolth, have good reason to feel aggrevied with their surface cousins. On the other hand, it is also true that dark elves generally were always an aggressive race who favoured might over right when it came to resolving problems. (It is not clear if Meyeritar's dark elves were any different from this and if so why they were?) The response of the Illythiir was far in excess of what the situation demanded and was directed at all adjoining realms, not just the Aryvaandar. They employed non elven tactics and magic and enlisted the help of demons and undead beings. After the descent they continued to attack all elven settlements they encountered, not just Aryvaandar. They have been responsible for terrible massacres such as the Dark Court Slaughter, which set Sheverash on the road to godhood. As a result, all elves have an inbuilt distrust and aggression towards the drow, which some have taken to extremes, such as Sheverash and his followers. Elves live a long time so 10,000 years is more like 1,000 years for humans. Is that sufficient time to overlook the "sins" of the past? Not as long as the gods on either side, Lolth and Sheverash, continue to encourage their followers to pursue the original prejudices. One reason I liked Vhaeraun is that he was actually saying to his followers "forget the past, let's work together with the surfacers for elf domination" but now he has been killed off that has gone down the tube. My drow couldn't quite shake off prejudices enough to go with Eilistraae's "let's give the surface elves presents to make them like us." Their view was "we don't care if they like us, we're here on the surface and we're staying".
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 11:52 AM	Events that have a relevance to their daily life today. So they are hardly "bitter" over the events 10,000 years ago as such, rather have a real point in harassing elves where-ever they find them up to this day. These days, you can actually argue whether the drow as a race are "bitter" over these events, since they consider themselves as being better than anyone because of the trials and tribulations they were put through ... Well, it all depends on the point of view. -Not even 70 years ago, millions of Jews were systematically killed. These crimes were mostly perpetrated by Germans, under the Nazi regime. I'm sure you are familiar with all that, actually being in Germany yourself.(unless Germany is actually like it was portrayed in that scene in Family Guy). Anyway, at first many Jews were weary of Germany, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to say that today, most Jews do not have any problems with Germany herself, or the German people. The state of Israel is even allies with Germany. -Now, compare this to the Drow.
Zanan 01-01-08, 04:44 PM	Well, what the country of Israel does politically-wise and what the Jewish people think are two different matters. I have no real clue what the average Jew in Israel thinks about the Germans these days. You'll always have a hard time comparing real life events with a written fantasy history.
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 05:26 PM	Well, what the country of Israel does politically-wise and what the Jewish people think are two different matters. I have no real clue what the average Jew in Israel thinks about the Germans these days. You'll always have a hard time comparing real life events with a written fantasy history. -That the government does so means that people agree, for the most part. If the majority did not, the Israeli government would constantly be facing protests/whatever from the majority of the populace. -The post WWII-German government cooperated a lot with Israel, in terms of hunting Nazis and whatever. There's some goodwill there. -While not in Israel, I have no problems with the "modern" German government, and the German people (except for Zanan! :P)
XHereticX 01-01-08, 07:16 PM	-That the government does so means that people agree, for the most part. If the majority did not, the Israeli government would constantly be facing protests/whatever from the majority of the populace. -The post WWII-German government cooperated a lot with Israel, in terms of hunting Nazis and whatever. There's some goodwill there. -While not in Israel, I have no problems with the "modern" German government, and the German people (except for Zanan! ;P) I don't know about Germans/Jews. But a lot of old Chinese people still hate Japanese for what they did at the Nanjing Massacre and other such events in the Sino-Japanese wars, plus they pass down these old hatreds to new generations, which is a shame.
MarkusTay63 01-01-08, 08:25 PM	While on the surface, they refer to them as "prey" :devil:
The Ubbergeek 01-02-08, 12:14 AM	I don't know about Germans/Jews. But a lot of old Chinese people still hate Japanese for what they did at the Nanjing Massacre and other such events in the Sino-Japanese wars, plus they pass down these old hatreds to new generations, which is a shame. Even closer... The balkans. The Serbians have held rancoeur for the Croatian legacy of the Ustachis in WW2... The Serbians remember bitterly the lost of the medieval lands... The Croatians hated that the communist regime leaned so for the Serbs... And both harbor bad memory of the turkish hordes and the 'traitors' who converted, giving the muslim Bosniacs... Talk a bout memory.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 03:25 AM	-None of that refutes what I said. The Drow, as a people, are bitter, and harp over events that took place thousands of years ago. I'm curious as to how you arrived at this conclusion. The drow can't really afford to harp over events stretching back through the mists of time into antiquity. What with the whole watching one's back but failing to account for the inevitable knifing of one's front. While the drow do blame the surface elves for their downfall, much of it is racial propaganda. They began their descent into evil long before any act by the surface elves. A fact the drow conveniently ignore. Not that they care very much. The surface elves are more inclined to harp over events, but even they refuse to talk about the Crown Wars. The drow elves are vain, territorial, spiteful, deadly dangerous, cruel, acerbic and petty, but they aren't bitter...except perhaps the slaves and commoners.
Zanan 01-02-08, 04:13 AM	-The post WWII-German government cooperated a lot with Israel, in terms of hunting Nazis and whatever. There's some goodwill there. West Germany did that? Well well. We could go off on a long debate about the dealings of West Germany with the Nazi chaps (and do please keep in mind that not all Nazis were the SS hordes, i.e. the worst of the lot), or rather non-dealings, but this is not the place to do this. -While not in Israel, I have no problems with the "modern" German government, and the German people (except for Zanan! :P) Hm ... "Zanan" is actually a drow. Her alter ego is ... well, nice and friendly and all* :D *On Friday afternoons, between 4.00 and 4.05 pm.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 08:42 AM	West Germany did that? Well well. We could go off on a long debate about the dealings of West Germany with the Nazi chaps (and do please keep in mind that not all Nazis were the SS hordes, i.e. the worst of the lot), or rather non-dealings, but this is not the place to do this. -Well, West Germany, maybe. Remember, the Soviets had a vested interest in tracking down Nazi war criminals. G-d knows, though, with all of the non-transparency. -And, East Germany, yes. Hm ... "Zanan" is actually a drow. Her alter ego is ... well, nice and friendly and all* :D *On Friday afternoons, between 4.00 and 4.05 pm. -Well, during those times, then.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 08:45 AM	I'm curious as to how you arrived at this conclusion. -The defining point of stereotypical Lolthite Drow society is that Corellon Larethian/the Surface Elves betrayed and banished the Drow, and that the Drow must extract revenge for said 'offenses'. If they did not harp on said event, it would be a footnote (perhaps an important one, but an important one none the less) in history. -Surface Elves indeed harp, dote and whatever else. However, they generally lack the general bitterness that defines the Drow.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 09:12 AM	Even closer... The balkans. The Serbians have held rancoeur for the Croatian legacy of the Ustachis in WW2... The Serbians remember bitterly the lost of the medieval lands... The Croatians hated that the communist regime leaned so for the Serbs... And both harbor bad memory of the turkish hordes and the 'traitors' who converted, giving the muslim Bosniacs... Talk a bout memory. Don't remind me please, I used to have a lot of friends from Kosovo back in elementary school that had to experience that stuff first-hand.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 09:29 AM	-The defining point of stereotypical Lolthite Drow society is that Corellon Larethian/the Surface Elves betrayed and banished the Drow, and that the Drow must extract revenge for said 'offenses'. If they did not harp on said event, it would be a footnote (perhaps an important one, but an important one none the less) in history. But not in the way you seem to describe it. And it's certainly not harping (whatever gave you that idea, I'll never know). In any case, it's racial propaganda designed to incite hatred toward other species and proving and implanting a drow's superiority complex. It's not about harping, which is your erroneous perception. And anyway, drow don't really care all that much, not as much as the surface elves do. And it is a footnote, regulated to as a sidenote in their history. -Surface Elves indeed harp, dote and whatever else. However, they generally lack the general bitterness that defines the Drow. Where do you get that impression? Is it conjecture again on your part? Drow are cruel, vain, petty and spiteful not bitter.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 09:46 AM	Harping: To talk or write about to an excessive and tedious degree; dwell on
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 09:50 AM	Why are you writing that? Is it because you have no reasonable arguments or points to make? I know what harping is.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 09:56 AM	Why are you writing that? Is it because you have no reasonable arguments or points to make? I know what harping is. -How can you say that Drow society does not dwell on (ie, harp) on events from the past? Most of Lolth's religious dogma involves extracting revenge for these past offenses.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 10:11 AM	Um, because Lolth's religious dogma makes no mention of it? Refer to Faiths and Pantheons, pg 41.
The Ubbergeek 01-02-08, 05:23 PM	It's both - bitter history always remembered and twisted for propaganda effect by the lolthites....
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 08:39 PM	It's both - bitter history always remembered and twisted for propaganda effect by the lolthites.... It's going to be propaganda for the main. The drow aren't going to care, for exactly the same reasons that I posted; they have too much to worry about. They hate surface elves and find themselves superior to them, but, hey, that's the typical drow elf anyway. They hate and find themselves superior to most other races. Harping is really going to be the "province" of the surface elves, they'd be the ones who would remember it bitterly, the scars cut deep.
Alkasyn 01-03-08, 12:22 PM	Harping is really going to be the "province" of the surface elves, they'd be the ones who would remember it bitterly, the scars cut deep. And why would the scares of the surfacers be deeper than those of the drow??
Shiftkitty 01-03-08, 03:54 PM	Zanan- As you seem to the source of all things drow, maybe you can help me out here. I had read in some source a little while ago that some drow, acting as individuals or else as isolated groups, had actually tried to make peace with the surface elves, or, in one instance I recall, had actually staggered to them for help after barely escaping some life-or-death situation, only to be slaughtered without mercy, even though they dropped their weapons and offered full surrender. One account in the document described surface elves finding a refugee camp of sorts and putting all of the drow, men, women, and children, to the sword. I don't remember the name of the document, or details like what the refugees were running from, but I do recall it left me wondering why the surface elves were considered to be among the 'good' races. Does any of this sound familiar to you? I'd like to find this document again. I think it was from the days of TSR. I know it wasn't a third-party source.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 03:57 PM	-Doesn't sound like anything I am familiar with. You sure it was FR specific?
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 06:31 PM	And why would the scares of the surfacers be deeper than those of the drow?? It's what the sourcebooks and novels have to say about it. Also, the elves are more prone to displays of emotion than the drow. The drow use it to be stronger than they were before, following and giving new definition to the maxim of "what does not kill me only makes me stronger."
Alkasyn 01-03-08, 09:33 PM	It's what the sourcebooks and novels have to say about it. Also, the elves are more prone to displays of emotion than the drow. The drow use it to be stronger than they were before, following and giving new definition to the maxim of "what does not kill me only makes me stronger." If the sourcebooks and novels say that then it's canon. Care to give any names? Plus, from what I've read(the famous Drizz't books), drow are also fairly emotional, at least when showing anger and pain.
The Ubbergeek 01-03-08, 10:15 PM	If the sourcebooks and novels say that then it's canon. Care to give any names? Plus, from what I've read(the famous Drizz't books), drow are also fairly emotional, at least when showing anger and pain. For sure - hate and lust also....
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-04-08, 07:45 AM	If the sourcebooks and novels say that then it's canon. Care to give any names? Plus, from what I've read(the famous Drizz't books), drow are also fairly emotional, at least when showing anger and pain. Virtually most of the sourcebooks and novels concerning the drow, supplements that come readily to mind include but are not limited to: Guide to the Underdark, Drow of the Underdark, the Drizzt novels concerning his life in Menzoberranzan, etc; that's off the top of my head, others I can't say for certain because I'm not near my books. Let me rephrase the latter part, the drow aren't prone to displays of beneficial emotion, but regardless are somewhat stoic in their countenance. A drow is talk to shun manifestations of beneficial emotion while affecting emotion or expressions that befit them, ie chaotic evil or neutral evil emotionality.
Shiftkitty 01-04-08, 03:05 PM	-Doesn't sound like anything I am familiar with. You sure it was FR specific? I think it was. I'm pretty sure there was a story about a badly wounded drow found by the surface elves who offered a complete surrender in exchange for little more than a drink of water. They ran a sword through his throat instead. For some reason I think it said this happened on the High Moor. I've looked through my FR Atlas and other 2e supplements I've got. Maybe it was something from the Arcane Age books. Gah! This is driving me up the walls!
The Ubbergeek 01-04-08, 03:21 PM	Drow of the Underdark Just a note - this is core/neutral/greyhawk-like material, this one. (ALbeit it offers some nice ideas quite!)
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 03:41 PM	Just a note - this is core/neutral/greyhawk-like material, this one. (ALbeit it offers some nice ideas quite!) -2e Drow of the Underdark is Forgotten Realms specific. Judging by the other sources provided, this is what I assume he meant.
The Ubbergeek 01-04-08, 05:33 PM	Sorry, mixed the two books (who have the same name).
XHereticX 01-04-08, 08:44 PM	I think it was. I'm pretty sure there was a story about a badly wounded drow found by the surface elves who offered a complete surrender in exchange for little more than a drink of water. They ran a sword through his throat instead. For some reason I think it said this happened on the High Moor. I've looked through my FR Atlas and other 2e supplements I've got. Maybe it was something from the Arcane Age books. Gah! This is driving me up the walls! Sounds like something either the followers of Shevarash or the Eldreth Veluuthra would do.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-04-08, 09:17 PM	Just a note - this is core/neutral/greyhawk-like material, this one. (ALbeit it offers some nice ideas quite!) Well, consider that no other settings really detailed the drow; only FR. Not Greyhawk (we first saw the drow in a 1ed adventure module, but really no specifics), not Ravenloft, not Planescape, not Birthright, not Dark Sun, etc etc. It was because of the efforts of RA Salvatore and E Greenwood did we really get to peruse (great) material written about/regarding the drow. I guess I should have specified which edition, but second and third edition equally apply. Non-specific setting/non-setting specific material means that it ensures a broader application of the content.
Zanan 01-05-08, 06:40 AM	-2e Drow of the Underdark is Forgotten Realms specific. Judging by the other sources provided, this is what I assume he meant. BE precise here! The Drow of the Underdark is an FR specific book, written by Ed Greenwood. Drow of the Underdark is a recently published Core lorebook on the drow ... by people who had very little to do with the FR, its drow and their history so far. PrC, feats and spells aside, much of this book is utterly "out of sync" with regards to the Realms.
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 12:21 PM	-Well, I did also specfically state '2e', so that doesn't leave very much room to the imagination.
gomeztoo 01-05-08, 02:34 PM	The drow are a strange race, mentally. Given that the word for love is the same as the word for greed (or lust). I think they have every right to be upset about stuff that happened 40.000 years ago, though. The Ilythiiirr did evil things, but they migth have been redeemable, especially whens ene in teh ligth of the age - before the other elves united against them it was a hackfest - the Crown Wars were not just dark elves being nasty, it was elf against elf, there may not have been more bloodier wars after that. Anyway, casting people down into the underdark isn't lightly going to be forgotten by anyone. In a way, the elves *made* the drow. That actually makes the more interesting, for it adds a big 'what if 'to the race and its evilness...
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 05:10 PM	The drow are a strange race, mentally. -Indeed. I think they have every right to be upset about stuff that happened 40.000 years ago, though. -Well, we have no clue what the Dark Elves were like 40,000 years ago. The Crown Wars weren't that long ago.
sfdragon 01-05-08, 05:23 PM	ive heard faery spider bait spider food
MarkusTay63 01-05-08, 11:28 PM	If we put the Drow before Dr. Phil, he'd probably say that the Drow have the universe's worst 'Abandonment Issues'. :rolleyes:
Zanan 01-06-08, 11:38 AM	-Well, I did also specfically state '2e', so that doesn't leave very much room to the imagination. The arcanist did not have "evasion" on his character sheet, I'm sure of that! :D Regarding "redemption" ... I wonder which author / designer was the first to set this notion on its way. Very misleading, hardly thought through and a can of worms, nothing else.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 11:41 AM	The arcanist did not have "evasion" on his character sheet, I'm sure of that! :D -Well, when you are Ethereal to begin with, it doesn't really matter much. Regarding "redemption" ... I wonder which author / designer was the first to set this notion on its way. Very misleading, hardly thought through and a can of worms, nothing else. -Redemption...of the Drow? Probably Elaine Cunningham, in Evermeet: Island of the Elves.