Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khaelieth 02-13-07, 08:29 AM	Seen as drow is a human derivation of the elven word for traitor, you wouldn't think drow would call themselves it, both for it being a human word and I'm pretty sure they don't see themselves as traitors. Ilythiiri would be more natural. Does anyone else agree?
Lord Karsus 02-13-07, 09:16 AM	-Nah, they'd call themselves Drow. If everyone started calling you 'Steve', don't you think you'd eventually begin using it?
MerrikCale 02-13-07, 11:01 AM	-Nah, they'd call themselves Drow. If everyone started calling you 'Steve', don't you think you'd eventually begin using it? not if it was derogatory
Khaelieth 02-13-07, 01:33 PM	I don't really think they'd call themselves drow, as dhaerow is a curse in Elven.
Hartbaine 02-13-07, 02:28 PM	They would call themselves what ever you want them to call themselves. It's your game. Even Steve. I've had Drow reffer to themselves as 'Drow' in the presence of others just so those around are not confused. "As you know, we drow have rather... exotic tastes." It helps non-elven characters understand who they're speaking about when they reffer to themselves.
MarkusTay63 02-13-07, 02:43 PM	not if it was derogatoryNot true... my wife has been calling me an a__hole for years, and now I answer to it. ;) Drow refer to themselves as 'Dark Elves' when around each other. In any of the Drow novels and series this is pretty much the case. However, they refer to themselves as Drow when dealing with outsiders, because they enjoy the 'fear' that word generates. Also, it is the more recognizable term for surface dwellers, and that is why Driizt uses it. In fact, Driizt even referred to the other dark Elves he met in the recent series as 'Drow Elves', since he now thinks like a surface person. Surface Vhaerun worshippers have gotten used to referring to themselves as Drow, for the same reasons as Driizt, but refer to the subterranean Drow as "Spider-Kissers'. Not sure if they have a word for the followers of Elistraae, but they should. An Underdark Dark Elf will refer to another as Drow, but only in the context of an insult/compliment. Someone murders their best friend to improve their station in life, and another dark Elf would say "You are such a Drow!". So in that kind of context, they would have no problem using the word, even though 'Dark Elf' is more appropriate for polite company. Illythiir would be incorrect, because there was at least one other Dark Elven culture in Faerun before the descent. Illythiir is a Clan name, not a racial distinction. Also, I can think of dozens of cases in the RW where a derogatory word was created to describe a group, and the group itself later embraced it.
Khaelieth 02-13-07, 03:31 PM	Not sure if the have a word for the followers of Elistraae, but they should. Harlots? But the major culture was undoubtedly the Ilythiiri, and it was simpler I believe. But aye, dark elves does sound better.
MerrikCale 02-13-07, 03:53 PM	Not true... my wife has been calling me an a__hole for years, and now I answer to it. ;) Well if it walks like a duck....
MarkusTay63 02-13-07, 04:15 PM	Well if it walks like a duck....Nice.... real nice.... :waits:
Red_Wizard 02-13-07, 04:29 PM	not if it was derogatory Might I point out the use of the "N" word amongst black people.
Stigger 02-13-07, 05:35 PM	Kinda reminds me of Randall taking back words in Clerks II...
Lord Karsus 02-13-07, 05:36 PM	not if it was derogatory I don't really think they'd call themselves drow, as dhaerow is a curse in Elven. -Remember though, Dhaerow is an ancient term. If I called you a 'Saucy, Milk-Livered Nut-Hook", how would you feel, in all honesty? This is a great website, by the way: http://www.renfaire.com/Language/insults.html
MarkusTay63 02-13-07, 07:38 PM	Might I point out the use of the "N" word amongst black people.I alluded to this, but didn't think posting a direct example was appropriate, but since YOU did, yes, that is one of many I could think of. I, myself, am a PROUD MIC! :pint: Now, if you were to call a Dark Elf a 'Faerie Elf', you'd have your spleen cut-out.
Lord Karsus 02-13-07, 10:48 PM	Kinda reminds me of Randall taking back words in Clerks II... -Heh. That was funny.
see 02-13-07, 11:36 PM	Seen as drow is a human derivation of the elven word for traitor, you wouldn't think drow would call themselves it, both for it being a human word and I'm pretty sure they don't see themselves as traitors. Ilythiiri would be more natural. Does anyone else agree? IIRC, they call themselves Tel'Quessir ("the People"), just like non-drow elves call elfkind. The drow call all non-drow, even elves, N'Tel'Quess. If (I'm now speculating, instead of vaguely remembering) they are followers of Elistraee or Vhaeraun, they might take a broader view, viewing other elves as Tel'Quessir and calling their specific subrace Ssri-Tel'Quessir (the Ssri-Tel'Quessir being the name of the dark elf subrace before the Crown Wars).
MarkusTay63 02-13-07, 11:55 PM	IIRC, they call themselves Tel'Quessir ("the People"), just like non-drow elves call elfkind. The drow call all non-drow, even elves, N'Tel'Quess.Aaahhh... but theres the rub. In sourcebooks, it says Drow speak Elven, same as they do on the surface, so it appears you are correct. However, in novels, video games, internet dictionaries, etc.. Drow have their OWN language, and have never been known too use 'Faerie Elven' when speaking, except perhaps to a surface Elf. I had a problem with this in the Elven netbook. I wrote a whole section on the 'Drow' language, and then had to toss it out when I read the racial description in the guides. Despite all information to the contrary, officially there is NO Drow language. However, having read just about every 'dark Elf' book wizards/TSR has put out, I have never heard them refer to themselves as Tel'Quessir, despite what the obviously mis-informed sourcebooks tell us. Rant Over.
Lord Karsus 02-14-07, 12:58 AM	Despite all information to the contrary, officially there is NO Drow language. -Tell that to Drow of the Underdark, pg. 95.
Stigger 02-14-07, 04:15 AM	Two of them if you count their sign language really... sorta.
see 02-14-07, 07:17 AM	Okay, the bit that I was basing my recollection on was from the 2e FRCS, "A Grand Tour of the Realms", p.9. The elves call their own race Tel'Quessir, which translates as the people. Strangers, in particular nonelven strangers, are generally placed under the category N'Tel'Quess, or not-people. Most elves treat the not-people with respect and politeness, as a host would a stumbling child, though the drow fiercely enlasve any who are not of their race and consider the other elven subraces N'Tel'Quess. That implies, but certainly does not establish, that drow call themselves Tel'Quessir. As far as the drow language . . . The 1e Fiend Folio established that they spoke both "elven and their own language". The 2e Monstrous Manual establishes that they speak "their own tongue, an exotic variant of elvish". The Drow of Underdark supplement has them speaking a unique language that resembles common in its structure and has borrowings from other Underdark languages. And then, the 3e FR supplement Underdark says they speak an elven dialect with significant borrowings from other Underdark languages. Harmonizing these different sources as much as possible, with the "most recent lore trumps" rule in mind and remembering the nature of real-world languages . . . The primary language of the drow is elven as evolved by a separated community for many generations, and with borrowings from different neighbors. Both surface elves and the drow insist that the dialects are separate enough to qualify as different languages, but there is still a significant degree of similarity. For relatively simple communications (and for the purposes of simplicity in game), the languages are close enough that a speaker of one can make himself understood in the other. Many drow also speak undercommon, and will often blend undercommon, the drow dialect of elven, and bits of the semi-secret liturgical language of Lolth's faith ("high drow") in their speech. The odd vocabulary changes and syntax shifts of this blended speech are hard for even fluent speakers of both undercommon and (surface) elven to understand. This patois has been seen by outsiders as a unique drow language ("low drow"), but it is not considered such by the drow. It is never intentionally taught to the young, or used in formal or written communication. It is known to vary dramatically from city to city. Combined with "silent speech" gestures and code phrases, it is often favored by drow warriors where they suspect outsiders may be listening in. Circle squared. :D
Zanan 02-14-07, 07:28 AM	-Tell that to Drow of the Underdark, pg. 95. Matter of factly, this has been adressed in Underdark in the drow section. Drow speak a dialect of Elven that has been enriched by the language of other Underdark races. This has been done a few times, but if you need first hand info, just ask Ed over at Candlekeep. Do note that drow have lived in relative isolation from the mainstream Elven languages for the better part of 10,000 years. Even with the prolonged lifespan of the drow, this is a lot of time. Compare that to the changes in human languages over the course of the last 1500 years. The West Germanic dialect spoken back then - despite constant direct contact - developed into English, Dutch, German etc., not to mention several regional dialects as well. The average Englishman send into Bavaria / Germany will understand nigh to nothing of what is being said, pronunciation not even included here. Just as food for thought. In my games, the average elf does not understand Drow by default - and vice versa. Neither does the average Damaran understand the average Chondathan. As for drow ... this is probably a build-in problem. The termini were there before the history and characters were using them before as well. I would not call myself a "hun" or "Kraut", as we Germans are sometimes addressed. On the other hand, there are instances when some term that strikes fear into the hearts of others may be adopted by those belonging to the race. As for Ilythiiri, they were dark elves, but the drow are not calling themselves after them. Just have a look into Lost Empires of Faerūn to get the answers required.
Lord Karsus 02-14-07, 09:44 AM	Matter of factly, this has been adressed in Underdark in the drow section. Drow speak a dialect of Elven that has been enriched by the language of other Underdark races. This has been done a few times, but if you need first hand info, just ask Ed over at Candlekeep. -Hence my point that they don't speak Elven. Yiddish is a "combination" of German and Hebrew. Yet, it is it's own language. There may be certain phrases that a German speaker would understand, and there may be certain phrases that a Hebrew speaker might understand, but if you're not fully fluent in Yiddish, you're not going to understand it. It is it's own language. -Same idea applies here. Drow is a combination of Elven and Undercommon. Oddly enough, I recall reading something that said that Undercommon was primarily based on the language of the Drow, but that's neither here nor there. A person who is fluent in Elven may understand some words, and a person who is fluent in Undercommon will recognize some words, but if you're not fluent in Drow, you're not going to understand it. It is it's own language. -That's how my reasoning sees it, anyway.
The_Shaman 02-14-07, 09:45 AM	I'd agree with most posted here. It is, however, possible that the drow do indeed take to calling themselves such, as a sign of pride at what the surface fools considered failing. It's kind of like people wearing a shirt "Badass, and proud of it." There can be some problems with that (afaik they feel to be the ones betrayed), but it's possible that they use the adopt the term just because of their hatred towards those who'd call them traitors. That's partially why I don't think they'd use the elven name with which elves refer to themselves: too much bad blood between them and any other elven race. As for Illythiri, that was a tribe, but afaik pretty much all drow are descended from it... So it may work. It would probably be the more "intellectual" name, though: drow would be the more common. Dark elf - I'm not sure. No elven subrace - drow included - wants to be reminded that drow have anything to do with other elves. Now, dwarves would probably use this a lot.
Edo_555 02-14-07, 09:48 AM	-Nah, they'd call themselves Drow. If everyone started calling you 'Steve', don't you think you'd eventually begin using it? Almoust everyone calls fins - fins;) But they call themselves suomi. My insectman race: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11413345
MarkusTay63 02-14-07, 05:17 PM	So basically, a RW comparison of a surface Elf speaking to a drow Elf would be like a Spanish person speaking to an Italian person. There are enough similarities to be understood, but both would be speaking their own 'language' (dialect). I can live with that. Just don't call them Faerie Elves.... :ahem:
_SIN_ 02-14-07, 05:59 PM	Or Steve!!!
Zanan 02-14-07, 07:03 PM	If you want to have a look at a pretty decent run-down on how Germanic alone developed and look at some samples, try this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages). And that's a developement of just 1,500 years
Khaelieth 02-14-07, 07:10 PM	I would not call myself a "hun" or "Kraut", as we Germans are sometimes addressed. Or Bosch or Fritzy!=D Not racism intended, all in good spirits;) Honestly, us Scots were called women from Hell during WWI, I think it might have something to do with our dashing kilts! Friendly salutations from wee Jock Poo Pong McPlop who cleans the public toilets in Glasgow! But I think it's fairly obvious that the drow/dark elves/dark ears speak their own language that's very different from Elven. The darthiiri will understand a word or two, but that's it. But still... I still honestly, amongst themselves, they would not call themselves drow. I'd say dark elves as a catchall.
_SIN_ 02-14-07, 08:51 PM	Maybe they just changed a letter or two??...... Cow Elves, anyone?.....
Lord Karsus 02-14-07, 11:24 PM	Or Steve!!! -Hey, leave Steve alone. Steve is a very good name, especially considering that it is my name.
Questing GM 02-15-07, 01:03 AM	i wonder will this covered in the upcoming drow book somewhere this year....:)
see 02-15-07, 01:11 AM	Ahah. Tracked down the 2e Monstrous Compendium page on Drow, which mentions "their own tongue - a strange version of elvish". And the 1e Unearthed Arcana has drow speaking common, undercommon, elvish, gnomish, and the silent gesture-speech, but no unique drow spoken language. So a reasonable, realistic approach to drow is that it's in that vague linguistic area where some linguists would classify drow and elven as one language and others would count them as two. See any number of real-life ongoing controversies over the difference between "merely a dialect" and "really its own language" (for example, the debates about Serbian and Croatian; about Ukrainian, Russian, and Belorussian; or about the various regional differences in speech in Italy, France, and Spain). Which would make it likely that the drow word for themselves is properly translated "the people" and is a cognate of Tel'Quessir.
Zireael 02-15-07, 01:41 AM	I think they call themselves either Ssri'Tel'Quessir or the drow, as it's the race name.
Stigger 02-15-07, 04:06 AM	Hmmm... my name is Steve too... hope this doesn't start some highlander thing...
Zanan 02-15-07, 09:20 AM	Or Bosch or Fritzy!=D Not racism intended, all in good spirits;) Honestly, us Scots were called women from Hell during WWI, I think it might have something to do with our dashing kilts! Friendly salutations from wee Jock Poo Pong McPlop who cleans the public toilets in Glasgow! But I think it's fairly obvious that the drow/dark elves/dark ears speak their own language that's very different from Elven. The darthiiri will understand a word or two, but that's it. But still... I still honestly, amongst themselves, they would not call themselves drow. I'd say dark elves as a catchall. Actually, Glasgow provides a "good" example, as you have two football teams with pretty different approaches to their "nicknames". Whereas Rangers supporters strictly oppose being called "Huns" by any other football supporter in Scotland (or the media) - as they perceive it to be derogatory, the Celtic supporters apparently have no problem being called "Tims" (after a Glasgow street gang of the 1920s) by anyone else. The latter is also being used for Catholics in Western Scotland. They even refer to one another as Tims. So there you have opposing examples too. BTW, Khaelieth, just in case you were wondering, Blue is the colour, of course! The new drow book may have a clue or two about this, but remember that this is core material rather than FR stuff (unless they specifically say so). One wonders why the book got its name after the famous FR work of Ed Greenwood though?!
MarkusTay63 02-15-07, 10:11 AM	The new drow book may have a clue or two about this, but remember that this is core material rather than FR stuff (unless they specifically say so). One wonders why the book got its name after the famous FR work of Ed Greenwood though?!Because WotC can make more money off of bastardizing it and feeding it to the masses. Its not about quality anymore, its about regurgitating old products.
Khaelieth 02-15-07, 09:08 PM	BTW, Khaelieth, just in case you were wondering, Blue is the colour, of course! GREEN AND WHITE! By a lonely prison wall, I heard a young girl calling! Michael, they have taken you away, for you stole Trevelyan's corn so the young might see the morn! Now a prison ship lies waiting in the bay! Uhmm. Yes. Fields of Athenry. And we're gonna win this year as well! Aye, I'm a tim=) Gers' few fans are usually known as billy boys in opposition to tims. But back to drow, doesn't Ssri'Tel'Quessir mean dark elves?
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 12:10 AM	Hmmm... my name is Steve too... hope this doesn't start some highlander thing... -Excellent. We should form a coalition, and...well, we'll take it from there... But back to drow, doesn't Ssri'Tel'Quessir mean dark elves? -Generally, it means 'Dark Elves'. Technically, it means 'People of the ______'. There isn't actually a set word for what Ssri means. You know, I think I'm going to ask Steve (Aha, another Steve!) Schend about that, since he is the Elven go-to guy.
Stigger 02-16-07, 07:25 AM	:blink: Lots of Steve's all of a sudden... not sure if that's making me nervous or not. Hate to say it, but I think Markus has a point about the drow book forthcoming. The latest Waterdeep book was something of a disappointment to put it politely.
GothicDan 02-16-07, 11:22 AM	I think that's the first negative comment I've heard about the Waterdeep sourcebook. No, wait, there was another one. So the second. :)
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 12:22 PM	I think that's the first negative comment I've heard about the Waterdeep sourcebook. No, wait, there was another one. So the second. :) -I have yet to buy the book. It was either the Waterdeep sourcebook, of Champions of Ruin. I wasn't too impressed by Waterdeep, so I purchased Champions of Ruin. I was also skimming it in the bookstore, but there's a pseudo-negative comment for you.
GothicDan 02-16-07, 12:27 PM	You bought CHAMPIONS OF RUIN INSTEAD? LK, I have to say, I'm very disappointed in you.
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 12:33 PM	-I needed to have a version of Dendar the Night Serpent my PCs would be able to slay, because they are the hEr0zz Uv fA3run!!111! ;) -No, not true. I don't DM in the Realms, and if I did, creatures like Dendar would be off-limits.
Zanan 02-16-07, 07:25 PM	GREEN AND WHITE! ... Aye, I'm a tim=) Gers' few fans are usually known as billy boys in opposition to tims. Yeah, but only the more loyalist Bears* accept that and call themselves Billy Boys too. Just one last question - not least with regard to that song - where in Ireland is Glasgow? :evillaugh *For the unknowing, "Bears" is the term Rangers supporters are known by and tend to address themselves, apart from "Bluenoses". The term is so-called "rhyming slang" i.e. "Bears" and " 'Gers". But back to drow, doesn't Ssri'Tel'Quessir mean dark elves? Don't think the name was actually used in one of the older FR books. The Complete Elven Handbook has them though. The Ilythiiri are also called "Elves of the South", but only Ed knows whether that is a straight translation.
Khaelieth 02-16-07, 08:26 PM	Yeah, but only the more loyalist Bears* accept that and call themselves Billy Boys too. Just one last question - not least with regard to that song - where in Ireland is Glasgow? :evillaugh Heard that before, I'd expect something more refined=P We're part Irish (most of us) =P And Roman Catholic, so we're more inclined to waving Irish flags than English flags. There's a reason Flower of Scotland is about teaching the English to go home and mind their own business! If you saw the Hapoel Tel Aviv against Gers, you'd see the English flags, and as I'm a rebel, I'd never consider Gers. But the rought translation would be Dark elves? You are the authority on the dark ears.
The_Shaman 02-16-07, 09:21 PM	You bought CHAMPIONS OF RUIN INSTEAD? LK, I have to say, I'm very disappointed in you. Hey, CoR is one of the better books I've seen so far.
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 02:20 AM	- I wasn't too impressed by Waterdeep, so I purchased Champions of Ruin. Thats the book about TSR's business savy, right? ;)
Zanan 02-17-07, 04:44 AM	There's a reason Flower of Scotland is about teaching the English to go home and mind their own business! Nono ... a common misconception. It's about a foreign conqueror being send home. No word about the English. If you saw the Hapoel Tel Aviv against Gers, you'd see the English flags, and as I'm a rebel, I'd never consider Gers. You'll find supporters clubs of the team all over the world, showing various sorts of flags. Usually, we tend to use the Union Jack though and that is not an "English" flag, of course. Anyway, that's off topic babble. But the rought translation would be Dark elves? You are the authority on the dark ears. Tel'Quessir means "the people". Neither Cormanthyr nor The Drow of the Underdark give an explanation on the "Ssri" though, and I haven't check on that Elven HB as yet.
Stigger 02-17-07, 04:54 AM	I liked CoR personally...
Khaelieth 02-17-07, 08:17 AM	Nono ... a common misconception. It's about a foreign conqueror being send home. No word about the English. You'll find supporters clubs of the team all over the world, showing various sorts of flags. Usually, we tend to use the Union Jack though and that is not an "English" flag, of course. Anyway, that's off topic babble. Hrm. O Flower of Scotland, When will we see Your like again, That fought and died for, Your wee bit Hill and Glen, And stood against him, Proud Edward's Army, And sent him homeward, Tae think again. Edward being the King of England at the time, the Hammer of Scots, and the man who also conquered Wales... And it's only called a Union Jack if flown by a ship=) And I've seen far too many English flags amongst them anyway, so why wonder why we fly Irish ones? But still! I think we need to find out what Ssri means=)
nameneeded 02-17-07, 11:00 AM	:blink: Lots of Steve's all of a sudden... not sure if that's making me nervous or not. Not a Steve here ;) Just a quik add to this..... 1) If Elves came before humans then the derogatory use of "Drow" would be base on interactions with them. Right? 2) When the elves split up creating the Drow (I think thats what happened) were they cast out or just left to follow their own path? And what were they refered to prior to the split? I would guess thats what they would call themselves. 3) How do you pronounce 'Drow"? We have a player who pronouces it Drow as in "row your boat" while the rest go with "bow for the king" way. How do you pronounce it? smiles
Khaelieth 02-17-07, 11:07 AM	1) Aye, the word drow is derived from humans trying to pronounce dhaerow or something 2) They were driven underground. Prior the split, they were Ssri'tel'quessir 3) I pronounce it as bow, dunno why.
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 03:05 PM	1) Aye, the word drow is derived from humans trying to pronounce dhaerow or somethingGood observation, I wonder now why the Elves of Evermeet use 'Drow' instead of Dhaerow? 2) They were driven underground. Prior the split, they were Ssri'tel'quessirYes, but they were only called that in formal - on documents, official proclamations, etc. They were always referred to as 'Dark Elves' by the other Elven ethnicities informally. The Dark Elves were always the 'bad seeds' in Elven eyes, and had even left Faerie (with wild/wood Elves) before the tragedy of Tintageer. If you recall from the novel, the Dark Elves already had a civilization before the coming of the Gold and Silver Elves. I would assume they left to get away from all the prejudism and find a better place for themselves. Before being driven underground, they normally would have referred to themselves by their culture, i.e. - The Illythiiri or the Miyeritar (there were also Miyeritar Green Elves as well). 3) I pronounce it as bow, dunno why.I've heard both, and 'I think' row is the official way of pronouncing it. However, I been using 'owww' for years, probably mistakenly, and its what I'm used to, so its all good.
The_Shaman 02-17-07, 04:23 PM	I don't know how officially it was, but in BGII it was iirc pronounced more like "bow". The more "a" sounding one, at least.
Red_Wizard 02-17-07, 06:12 PM	The "correct" pronunciation of Drow is taken from Page 9 of A Grand Tour of the Realms (2nd edition Forgotten Realms boxed set) where it states, "Dark elves, also called Drow (pronounced to rhyme with now or how)..." Drow = DROU (as in drowsy), (however, DROH is often heard anyway)
Khaelieth 02-17-07, 06:29 PM	Yes, but they were only called that in formal - on documents, official proclamations, etc. They were always referred to as 'Dark Elves' by the other Elven ethnicities informally. The Dark Elves were always the 'bad seeds' in Elven eyes, and had even left Faerie (with wild/wood Elves) before the tragedy of Tintageer. If you recall from the novel, the Dark Elves already had a civilization before the coming of the Gold and Silver Elves. I would assume they left to get away from all the predjudism and find a better place for themselves. Before being driven underground, they normally would have referred to themselves by their culture, i.e. - The Illythiiri or the Miyeriatar (there were also Miyeritar Green Elves as well). As far as I know, dark elf means Ssr'tel'quessir. Dark elf is the translation.
Lord Karsus 02-17-07, 06:42 PM	As far as I know, dark elf means Ssr'tel'quessir. Dark elf is the translation. -Dark Elf is the bastardized translation, and not the literal one. Teu'Tel'Quessir literally means, in Elven, 'People of the Moon', or Moon Elves. Some translate this as Silver Elves, however. So, as I said earlier, Ssri'Tel'Quessir literally means 'People of the ______', but the bastardized translation is simply Dark Elves, or Drow Elves. -And, I don't know if we're still discussing it, but I began reading the beginning of the Lady Pentient Trilogy, and Lisa Smedman refers to the Drow languages as 'Drowic' and 'High Drow'. Words that are not found in either language (such as 'trust', or 'friendship'), are spoken in the Elven tongue, instead.
Khaelieth 02-17-07, 08:38 PM	Aye, I know it doesn't translate to the same thing literally, but roughly it means the same. If they wrote all the drow conversations in drow, I'd be rather irritated.
Lord Karsus 02-17-07, 08:41 PM	Aye, I know it doesn't translate to the same thing literally, but roughly it means the same. -In the same sense that 'Citrus' means 'Orange'.
see 02-17-07, 09:06 PM	-And, I don't know if we're still discussing it, but I began reading the beginning of the Lady Pentient Trilogy, and Lisa Smedman refers to the Drow languages as 'Drowic' and 'High Drow'. Yes, and those names are mentioned in the 2e "The Drow of Underdark" section. The trouble is the 2e "The Drow of Underdark" definitions, where Drowdic (also called Low Drow) uses a Common-like syntax, not an Elven-based one, while High Drow is confined to worship-of-Lolth purposes. This contradicts the implications of 1e UA and the plain text of 2e MC, 2e MM, 3e MM, 3e FRCS, 3e FR Underdark, and 3.5e MM. Thus my compromise proposal. Have "real" Drowdic be a relative to Elven (close enough that linguists can debate over whether they're dialects of the same language or different languages, a phenomenon widespread in the real world). Have High Drow be a special liturgical language (based, perhaps, on Abyssal). And have Drow use, as a coded battle-tongue (a la the Code Talkers in WW2), a patois of Undercommon, Drowdic, and bits of other tongues, which surface scholars occasionally mislabel "Drowdic".
Zanan 02-19-07, 04:52 AM	Hrm. O Flower of Scotland, When will we see Your like again, That fought and died for, Your wee bit Hill and Glen, And stood against him, Proud Edward's Army, And sent him homeward, Tae think again. Edward being the King of England at the time, the Hammer of Scots, and the man who also conquered Wales... And it's only called a Union Jack if flown by a ship=) And I've seen far too many English flags amongst them anyway, so why wonder why we fly Irish ones? In hushed tones, so the WizO might not hear it ... Edward was the king of England, an usurper of the vacant Scottish throne. He treid to conquer Scotland and was repelled. Much like the vikings earlier ... as you will surely know, the thistle is Scotland's "flower" and it made sure that the Scots were not surprised by the advancing vikings. Anyway, Edward I was the "Hammer of the Scots" (not the Welsh?, Stirling, Falkirk), the one repelled was Edward the III (Bannockburn). He could have been anyone else though, as it did/does not exactly matter. The song is a patriotic one, claiming Scotland will rise up against any conqueror as it did when Edward came calling. That anti-conqueror sentiment was invoked when writing the song as well, as it was mainly used before rugby and football matches before being adopted as the National Anthem in the 1990s. Maybe we should refer this to PMs though.
Zanan 02-19-07, 09:43 AM	The trouble is the 2e "The Drow of Underdark" definitions, where Drowdic (also called Low Drow) uses a Common-like syntax, not an Elven-based one, while High Drow is confined to worship-of-Lolth purposes. This contradicts the implications of 1e UA and the plain text of 2e MC, 2e MM, 3e MM, 3e FRCS, 3e FR Underdark, and 3.5e MM. First things first ... let's be precise about the matter: Drow speak "Drow", which is sometimes called "Deep Drow" or "Low Drow" or "Drowic". Generally, it is called "Drow" though. TDotUD is pretty precise on it ... A citizen of an underground city who seldom ventures far afield will know two tongues: the everyday spoken language of the drow, or "Deep Drow" (which varies slightly from community to community, in the same way that spoken Common has regional accents, phrases, and words) and the soundless language of gestures and expressions developed by drow long ago. "Deep Drow" (also known as "Low Drow" or "Drowic") is the everyday tongue of the drow, corrupted by passing fashions, trade-tongue jargon, and even words from other languages (notably orcish, dwarven, surface elven and human wizardly terms). It has a similar structure to the Common Tongue, used by humans and in most interspecies trade in the Realms (specifically to the dialect known as Undercommon, used in The Realms Below). When written, its flowing letters resemble old elven and freehand Thorass scripts, but a being familiar with both elvish and Common writing can puzzle out only 14% of the general nature of a drow inscription. Deep Drow is a living, changing tongue, and varies from place to place in the Underdark, as well as over time (although drow speech, due to isolation and technology slowed by tradition and a rigid classbased society, does not change with the rapidity of surface languages). High Drow Visitors to drow settlements may also sometimes hear "High Drow," an archaic, rarely-used dialect known and heard chiefly by the clergy of Lolth (used in spell incantations, or between priestesses when they don't want lesser drow within hearing to understand their speech). High Drow incorporates some specialized gestures (part of the Silent Language), which drow not familiar with it sometimes call "The Secret Signs." Essentially, IMHO, Drow speak a dialect that developed from the language of the former pre-Descent dark elven speech. It has changed in structure and words over the past 10 millenia though, so while still regarded as a dialect of Elven, it is as removed from it as the various human dialects are from one another (or Southern German from Scottish English (to say the least)). The more archaic form of "High Drow" is only taught and spoken by the clergy of Lolth (and equally old ones - remember that even Pharaun did not understand it) and it will be pretty hard to come by by anyone else. IMHO, almost as likely as trying to learn Druidic, but that's just me. Honestly, bartering about one or two skillpoints in Speak Language isn't really worth a full debate. I would rather lay more emphasis on how to acquire the language, as drow are/ will be generally not that willing to teach it to a non-drow.
see 02-19-07, 05:21 PM	First, two dialects of the same language are, by definition, interintelligible; if they are not, they are separate languages. (It gets fuzzy around "how interintelligible", of course. The same fuzziness happens with definitions like 'species'. This does not mean humans and orangutans are the same species merely because we can prove common descent and gross physical similarities.) Second, new lore overrides older lore. Accordingly, whatever was the case when TDotUD was printed, now drow speak Elven as their ordinary language. It's been declared that way in 3.x sources too many to list. So, while their specific dialects would certainly vary, a drow and a gold elf each speaking his native toungue would be able to communicate on at least a basic level. Scottish English and Southern German are not an appropriate model; those are related languages, but not dialects of the same language. The question then becomes, what language was it that TDotUD was describing? It could still be the drow dialect of Elven, if we assume Elven has a similar structure the the Common Tongue. The trouble is, if it were describing Elven, the TDotUD statement on readibility is false; an elf conversant should be able to puzzle it out much more reliably, since it would merely be a cryptogram. We can note, however, that TDotUD deliberately makes use of the "unreliable narrator" technique; Elminster and Susprina very well could have misled us. That leaves us with two choices: 1) The written Drow/Drowic/Low Drow is actually quite comprehensible to those who understand Elven and are familiar with the Thorass alphabet. 2) The written language described is not Drow/Drowic/Low Drow, but something else that would properly be called by another name. The second option strikes me as the preferable, since it allows a language with most of the characteristics of the TDotUD language to exist; we simply need to explain what it is, if not the ordinary tongue of the drow. Thus the idea that it is a patois of Elven and Undercommon used as a coded battle-language by drow warriors specifically because it will not be understood by enemy speakers of Elven. This approach conveniently fits with all the lore sources, with a minimum of stretching or invalidation: We take the 1e Fiend Folio as describing drow warriors, and we say they speak both the battle-tongue patois and elvish. We look at 1e UA, and we see that PC drow speak elvish but not a drow-specific language, and it fits. We look at the 2e MC2 and the 2e MM, and we can treat the separate entries for their elvish-based tongue and elvish as reflecting the RW ability of many speakers of a dialect to also speak in the standard form of the language. We see the 2e TDotUD, and realize that except for the claim that it is the speech of ordinary drow, the description of the patois used as a battle-tongue is perfectly fine. And the 3e MM, 3.5e MM, FRCS, "The Underdark", "Races of Faerun", and other 3.x sources are all entirely accurate in naming the tongue of the drow as elven, and not listing a separate drow tongue. Boom. All we have to do is let go of is the claim that TDotUD describes the ordinary language of the drow, and everything fits together. And, of course, if we don't, new lore trumps old and TDotUD is completely wrong in its description of the language of the drow.
Khaelieth 02-19-07, 08:09 PM	First, two dialects of the same language are, by definition, interintelligible; if they are not, they are separate languages. (It gets fuzzy around "how interintelligible", of course. The same fuzziness happens with definitions like 'species'. This does not mean humans and orangutans are the same species merely because we can prove common descent and gross physical similarities.) A specie is defined as whether they can have fertile offspring. Therefore, as I don't believe humans and orangutans can have any offspring, we're not the same. A horse and a donkey isn't the same species either, as mules aren't fertile. Though, by this definition, elves, half-elves, humans, dragons and fiends are the same species. That's fantasy though=) But I disagree with you, LK. I'd say Ssri'tel'quessir is more specific than that. It does mean the same thing, though I've not got my books with me to back it up. I think I read something in LEoF.
Lord Karsus 02-19-07, 09:02 PM	But I disagree with you, LK. I'd say Ssri'tel'quessir is more specific than that. It does mean the same thing, though I've not got my books with me to back it up. I think I read something in LEoF. -Trust me. There isn't. If there were a translation of 'Ssri', I would know it.
Silke_Rahn 02-19-07, 11:08 PM	Not sure if they have a word for the followers of Elistraae, but they should. Heretic might come to mind too. But then again my Half-Drow Silke Rahn might take exception to that since she is a fallower of Eilistraee. Currently Silke is Ranger (7) Rogue (7) Shadow Dancer (2) and has an innumerable body count. The lady champions causes that are good, but seems to have a thing for leaving only a limited number of her enemies alive. It is usually her friends that tell the tales of her exploits and battles. Two white Dragons, several uncounted orcs, goblins, kobolds, ogres, and many human enemies of various classes. Not to mention the Succubi, imps, quasits, mephits, hell hounds and various elementals and undead. The dragons were the worst. Stealth, trickery, and deceit win out with them. Of course having a good arsenal does not hurt either. Her use of an oath bow, a +2 Greatsword, +3 Two-Bladed Sword, a + 3 Longsword in combination with a +3 shortsword, and a +3 Shield in combination with either a +3 Morningstar, +2 Bastardsword, or the +3 Longsword have saved her life many times. Her skills with these weapons plus her focus on the greatsword and the two-bladed sword added with her hide and walk silently scores and her armor, a cloak of Elvenkind in combination with boots of Elvenkind make her an angel of death. Oh should I mention that being a half-Drow with a bounty on her from the more evil of her kinfolk keeps things interesting. The Drow hunting her bounty have an almost easy trail to fallow. They just follow the trail made by the bodies of their dead comrades. This bounty is because at one point she interferred with the plans of a Drow mercenary band causing the deaths of many Drow with connections to powerful families in the Underdark and other evil Drow communities. Life needs to be interesting otherwise why is it worth living. Silke Rahn is neutral good too. My group has yet to bring in a major NPC like Drizzt, or anyone else, but with Silke around we really don't need to.
MarkusTay63 02-20-07, 12:05 AM	@see - So patois is the hand-language? :confused: Anyway, what you say is pretty much the way I figured it in the Elven Netbook entry. To an outsider, hearing a conversation between a Drow and a surface Elf (however unlikely that would be), they would think they were speaking the same language because they would sound VERY similar to the ear. However, if you said that to either of those two you would probably get yourself killed. The languages have enough differences where the two race would consider them different, but enough similarities that they could communicate (every other word kind of thing?). The Drow have had at least half the words change over the years as their language has become 'polluted' by Undercommon. And as far as 'High Drow' goes, my guess would be that it is a corruption of ancient High Elven (also rarely spoken, even in Elven Court) mixed with some Abyssal. Figure it works the same, a speaker of High Elven could probably make out about half of what someone speaking High Drow says. Probably only Gold Elves still speak ancient high Elven though. -Trust me. There isn't. If there were a translation of 'Ssri', I would know it.I would say it means 'night', to keep with the 'sky' theme. Dark just doesn't fit, but night fits right in with Sun, Moon, and Star. Plus "People of the Night" just sounds cool. :cool: Of course, all of this may be moot when the book on the dark Elves comes out. Then people can argue weather its 'core' or 'canon'. ;)
Zanan 02-20-07, 05:04 AM	First, two dialects of the same language are, by definition, interintelligible; if they are not, they are separate languages. (It gets fuzzy around "how interintelligible", of course. Hey, tell that to a German living on the Baltic Coast and a Bavarian living near the edge to Austria. If they babble in their German dialects, they will have a hard time getting any information accross. Matter of factly, you may even include a Swiss chap in there, who is speaking "German" but needs subtext on TV to become intelligible to the average German (even one who normally speaks "High German"). Second, new lore overrides older lore. Accordingly, whatever was the case when TDotUD was printed, now drow speak Elven as their ordinary language. It's been declared that way in 3.x sources too many to list. Unless there is no "override" or contradiction, of course. Underdark has specified what sort of language the Drow speak, a dialect of Elven. TDotUD just tells us what this dialect looks like, something there was apparently no room for in Underdark. Maybe we will see more info on this in the new book. As for intelligibility, see above. So, while their specific dialects would certainly vary, a drow and a gold elf each speaking his native toungue would be able to communicate on at least a basic level. Scottish English and Southern German are not an appropriate model; those are related languages, but not dialects of the same language. Well, if you want a break down and look for historical relations, Scots and German are quite related to one another. Both belong to the Western Germanic branch of languages and their regional dialects developed over a period of merely 1500 years. And neither of these Western Germanic languages, be it English, Dutch, or German, was isolated as the Drow tongue was from Elven ... for 10 times that long at that. So there will be most definitely words they share, but that does not mean that they understand full sentences. If you want less drastic examples, take Latin and its heirs Italian and Spanish. We can note, however, that TDotUD deliberately makes use of the "unreliable narrator" technique; Elminster and Susprina very well could have misled us. Hardly likely, as this is a sourcebook meant for DM, not a novel reader. That leaves us with two choices: 1) The written Drow/Drowic/Low Drow is actually quite comprehensible to those who understand Elven and are familiar with the Thorass alphabet. 2) The written language described is not Drow/Drowic/Low Drow, but something else that would properly be called by another name. Now, what is the problem with ... When written, its flowing letters resemble old elven and freehand Thorass scripts, but a being familiar with both elvish and Common writing can puzzle out only 14% of the general nature of a drow inscription. ... ? It clearly states that drow apparently write in a language that is NOT readily comprehensible to elf or human alike. Using different letters/alphabet is even more common than just speaking another dialect/language. And what nearer to logic than to call that written language Drow too? This approach conveniently fits with all the lore sources, with a minimum of stretching or invalidation: ... You need to cut a line here though, as whatever you lists on here should be FR material, not some pre-setting D&D monster babble, of course. Ed Greenwood in his book clearly defined the drow of Faerūn, no matter what other books say on the core drow. Boom. All we have to do is let go of is the claim that TDotUD describes the ordinary language of the drow, and everything fits together. And, of course, if we don't, new lore trumps old and TDotUD is completely wrong in its description of the language of the drow. Take a look at Underdark, p.11, TDotUD and rethink, if you please. It doesn't say anything but what Ed used, only in a shorter form. Methinks Ed has since clarified this as well ... though it is obviously up to you how you define/interprete the canon for your Realms.
Zanan 02-20-07, 05:54 AM	Rightio ... Ed Greenwood presented his (as official as you take it) view on the matter at Candlekeep: Greenwood on the Drow language (Candlekeep - answered 03 June 2005) June 3, 2005: Well met again, fellow scribes. Reefy, rest assured that I shall treasure my friend and great dungeon master Ed, who herewith speaks on the matter of the language of drow: Faraer, Zandilar, et al: I believe that the language spoken by the drow of today is rooted in the elf tongue spoken by the drow before they 'went under,' but all that survives from the elvish they spoke then (which of course has continued to be spoken by other elf races, and hence developed in a different direction, changing more rapidly in the last few centuries than it ever did in earlier times, thanks to all the intermingling of elves with other races, and words being needed for new concepts and things as elves encountered genuinely new customs, industries, and so on) is a smattering of vocabulary and the grammatical structure that underpins it all. Which as Zandilar correctly points out, is the aspect of all non-Common tongues in Faerūn most neglected thus far. Most of us haven't the time to delve into full linguistic development, particularly as most publishers would regard promoting such a thing (as anything but a web enhancement) to be financial suicide. What most DMs and Realms fiction writers are looking for is a handful of useful, cool-sounding words or phrases to give flavour to the speech of nonhumans (like the orc guards the PCs are creeping up on, the elf courtiers they're eavesdropping on, or the dragon they overhear). In many cases, these will be used mixed in with Common, just as many English speakers of today lard their speech with individual words or even phrases from Spanish or French. The reasons the drow tongue now shares so little vocabulary with surface elven speech is threefold: the Underdark is a very different environment than the Realms Above, so new names and terms were urgently needed, while a lot of words were no longer in daily use and started to fade; there was a deliberate political attempt to distance the drow from the Hated Ones who'd spurned them (other elves), just as there's a recent real-world American mood of anger against France re the political disagreements over Iraq, with moves to change "french fries" to "freedom fries" and so on; and Lolth / Lloth (and her priestesses, under her command) saw controlling the very speech of the drow as a sure means to complete dominance over other faiths (both the "former faiths" of the surface elves, and the various other faiths, such as those of Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar, and later Eilistraee, that the drow had been dabbling in). So, yes, as Zandilar commented: "Drow and Elven should be a little like Italian and French as far as differences go. They share similar origins, but today they're totally separate languages." Please bear in mind that this is just my opinion. The drow are from European mythology, Gary Gygax brought them into the D&D game (and therefore Greyhawk), and I was assigned (in writing DROW OF THE UNDERDARK) to "Realmsify" them (yup, that's the word that appears in my contract for that book), and later create a detailed D&D game presentation of Menzoberranzan to make sure "Bob's drow" were "properly in the Realms" (see the MENZOBERRANZAN boxed set, which can still be purchased in miniature form). I created Eilistraee because I was asked to create a "god for good drow" when doing DOTU.
Khaelieth 02-20-07, 09:10 AM	Well, if you want a break down and look for historical relations, Scots and German are quite related to one another. Both belong to the Western Germanic branch of languages and their regional dialects developed over a period of merely 1500 years. And neither of these Western Germanic languages, be it English, Dutch, or German, was isolated as the Drow tongue was from Elven ... for 10 times that long at that. So there will be most definitely words they share, but that does not mean that they understand full sentences. If you want less drastic examples, take Latin and its heirs Italian and Spanish. Scots (Gallic) isn't related to German. English has Germanic nouns and Latin adjectives though, as pig - porcine. Though I agree with Latin - Italian. LK; I meant that Ssri'tel'quessir is elven for dark elf when translated, but not when literally translated.
Lord Karsus 02-20-07, 09:30 AM	LK; I meant that Ssri'tel'quessir is elven for dark elf when translated, but not when literally translated. -Yes. I thought that we had already established that as while ago...;)
Khaelieth 02-20-07, 11:10 AM	... DAMMIT. Och well, but back to the main question: WOULD DROW CALL THEMSELVES DROW, DARK ELVES (SSRI'TEL'QUESSIR), ILYTHIIRI (I think we ruled out this one) OR DHAEROW?!
Zireael 02-20-07, 02:15 PM	In the drow language it's illythiiri, otherwise it'd be drow, or, surface living or many time ago, Ssri'Tel'Quessir.
see 02-20-07, 07:46 PM	A specie is defined as whether they can have fertile offspring. No, not quite; that's just a rule of thumb. There are a lot of edge cases (for just one example, fertile mules have been scientifically verified by DNA testing of offspring), and it doesn't help at all if you try to classify asexual creatures (and remember, asexual creatures outnumber and outmass all sexual creatures by orders of magnitude). It's a very messy question, and lots of specific cases have lots of messy debate.
BrennonGoldeye 02-20-07, 08:05 PM	No, not quite; that's just a rule of thumb. There are a lot of edge cases (for just one example, fertile mules have been scientifically verified by DNA testing of offspring), and it doesn't help at all if you try to classify asexual creatures (and remember, asexual creatures outnumber and outmass all sexual creatures by orders of magnitude). It's a very messy question, and lots of specific cases have lots of messy debate. Ahh, nice to see somebody add the rest of the biosphere into our exclusive mammalian naughtiness. Talk about thinking outside the box.:clap:
Agudo Archmage 02-20-07, 08:38 PM	MarkusTay63 In sourcebooks, it says Drow speak Elven, same as they do on the surface, so it appears you are correct. However, in novels, video games, internet dictionaries, etc.. Drow have their OWN language, and have never been known too use 'Faerie Elven' when speaking, except perhaps to a surface Elf. I had a problem with this in the Elven netbook. I wrote a whole section on the 'Drow' language, and then had to toss it out when I read the racial description in the guides. Despite all information to the contrary, officially there is NO Drow language So lol after reading all the other posts...does this mean Markus you ironicly didnt need to toss out your Drow Lang, post? I cant help but wonder how hard it was to come up with that Info Then just dump it:( On the bright side maybe you saved it :)
see 02-20-07, 09:21 PM	Hey, tell that to a German living on the Baltic Coast and a Bavarian living near the edge to Austria. If they babble in their German dialects, they will have a hard time getting any information accross. There are always edge cases. It's the nature of any system of classification. These edge cases neither redefine the meaning of the word "language" nor the D&D rules. Hardly likely, as this is a sourcebook meant for DM, not a novel reader. Actually, Ed Greenwood specifically has said he uses the "unreliable narrator" technique to deliberately make it possible for stuff he writes in even sourcebooks to be "wrong". Now, what is the problem with ... When written, its flowing letters resemble old elven and freehand Thorass scripts, but a being familiar with both elvish and Common writing can puzzle out only 14% of the general nature of a drow inscription. ... ? It clearly states that drow apparently write in a language that is NOT readily comprehensible to elf or human alike. Using different letters/alphabet is even more common than just speaking another dialect/language. The problem is it doesn't say it's merely not readily comprehensible; it says that characters can only "puzzle out" 14% of the meaning. Simple transliteration does not result in such a degree of incomprehensibility; it merely increases deciphering time. This is the principle behind cryptograms, a common type of word puzzle. The process goes even faster if the symbols used in a cryptogram are not randomly selected, but symbols related to their phonetic counterparts in the original language. A paragraph of English written in Cyrillic is easy enough for an English-speaker to puzzle out 100% even without knowledge of Cyrillic; it merely takes time. Take a look at Underdark, p.11, TDotUD and rethink, if you please. It doesn't say anything but what Ed used, only in a shorter form. Methinks Ed has since clarified this as well ... though it is obviously up to you how you define/interprete the canon for your Realms. Ed's "clarification" is wrong. Published lore contradicts him too heavily. By definition of the D&D game rules, Elven as spoken by one character is at least basically inter-intelligible with Elven as spoken by another. By the definitions of language used IRL, that is true as well. Elven is Elven. By the Player's Guide to Faerun, drow speak Elven. By Races of Faerun, drow speak Elven. By the FRCS, drow speak Elven. By the Underdark supplement, drow speak a (dialect of) Elven. Not an "Elvenic" language descended from the same root, but Elven. If they had intended that it not be Elven, they had plenty of chances to call it something else. They didn't. (They should have, I agree. Drow should speak Drow. But they didn't do it that way in 3e. What is published is what is published.) It's reasonable enough to push the differences to the point where it requires effort, speaking slowly, back-and-forth, and such for someone who speaks a surface dialect to communicate on a basic level with someone speaking the drow dialect -- your Bavarian and your Balt. But the repeated published statements that the races of elves (including the drow and those star elves) is that they all speak Elven, however isolated from each other they've been. Given that, the game rules and the ordinary linguistic meaning of "language" both rule out the TDotUD level of difference. It can't be the case of a Scot and a Bavarian; that'd be a difference too far. So, while a speech with the characteristics of described in TDotUD can exist (my proposed battle-language or patois, based on a blend of Undercommon and Elven with some other borrowings), it is not the language drow "normally" speak. Because the books are clear -- they speak Elven. (So to get back to my original point, the drow, who consider other elves N'Tel'Quess [by the 2e boxed set], would be calling themselves, in the Elven they normally speak, Tel'Quessir. I see no particular reason they'd bother adding Ssri, because it would be redundant, but they might do it anyway. Elistraee's followers and at least some of Vhaerun's would be more likely to add Ssri-, because they consider other elves People.)
Another Gnome 02-21-07, 04:45 AM	No matter how close Drow Elven dialect is to Elven, it does not exclude the option that drow would use their own word Ilythiiri of themselves rather than (Ssri')Tel'Quessir simply as means of differentiating themselves from their surface cousins. If and when speaking Common/Undercommon, chances are that they would indeed call themselves drow because it's a) only natural to use a well-known word available in the foreign language, rather than substituting it with something of your native tongue mid-speech, and b) because of the badass factor mentioned before. "Yes, I am a drow. Got a problem with that?" My personal view of drow is that while they would in public deny they even are related to surface elves (don't ever call a drow an elf -- ever) they know well enough that it's something they can't help, so they try to approach the matter from as favorable angle to them as possible. As such, their dialect would be spoken with a heavily bastardized accent as though mocking its origins (even though drow are quite capable of pronouncing pure surface Elven with little practice if need be), and this combined with the various original words and derivations from neighboring languages is what makes Drow different enough from surface Elven to make mutual understanding difficult. In written form the differences would be much less obvious.
Zanan 02-21-07, 04:50 AM	Scots (Gallic) isn't related to German. English has Germanic nouns and Latin adjectives though, as pig - porcine. Though I agree with Latin - Italian. Ssssshhhh!!! If I wanted to speak of Gaelic, I would have written Gaelic! :cool: I was speaking of Scots, which is actually a language you as a Glaswegian (?) should know about. There are three "languages" spoken (hey, I study that, so believe me!) in Scotland, Scottish English (i.e. the British Standard English with a Scottish accent), Scots (a tongue that developed in Northern Britain, coming from Anglish, not - like British Standard English - West Saxon), and Scots Gaelic, which is from Goidelic branch of the Celtic languages - originating in Ireland. *Scots, e.g., is the language of John Barbour, and for that matter Robert the Bruce, Wallace and all that. A common misconception that all Scots wore kilts and spoke Celtic Highland babble :D
Another Gnome 02-21-07, 05:02 AM	Oh right, as for this little tidbit: Almoust everyone calls fins - fins But they call themselves suomi. We call our country Suomi. Our people we call with various colorful expletives. :P
Zanan 02-21-07, 05:03 AM	Ed's "clarification" is wrong. Published lore contradicts him too heavily. Well, I fail to see anything in recent lore on that matter, i.e. Underdark, which contradict Ed's clarification. In any case, no matter what I think of this, or you, he will know what the drow of the Realms speak and whether their language is intelligible to average elves or not. No matter what language developement etc. says or not. Just in case, this is not about you or me or him being right or wrong. For the public, new lore says "drow speak a dialect of elven" (UD, p.11), not yet updated and more detailed lore (TDouUD) clarifies the actual meaning of this "dialect" term and the main designer of the FR (drow) clarifies their in-game situation too. I for one need no more than that.
Lord Karsus 02-21-07, 09:15 AM	No matter how close Drow Elven dialect is to Elven, it does not exclude the option that drow would use their own word Ilythiiri of themselves rather than (Ssri')Tel'Quessir simply as means of differentiating themselves from their surface cousins. -I highly doubt that Drow would call themselves 'Ilythiiri'. Ilythiir was a single nation, filled with Dark Elves. Dark Elves existed in many other places, though. It's the equivalent of calling all dark skinned people Africans, even though many may be Hispanic, Caribbean, and so on.
Another Gnome 02-21-07, 06:42 PM	Well, ilythiiri is the official Drow word for drow (or perhaps rather dark elves), and is in contrast to darthiiri (surface elves). You can blame Ed Greenwood for that. :) For a made-up explanation as to why a nation was called Ilythiir, perhaps the dark elves of Ilythiir were arrogant or simply unimaginative.
Lord Karsus 02-21-07, 07:04 PM	Well, ilythiiri is the official Drow word for drow (or perhaps rather dark elves), and is in contrast to darthiiri (surface elves). You can blame Ed Greenwood for that. :) For a made-up explanation as to why a nation was called Ilythiir, perhaps the dark elves of Ilythiir were arrogant or simply unimaginative. -I do blame Ed Greenwood! -Anyway, yes, the Ilythiiri Dark Elves were arrogant, haughty and powerful. Were Ilythiir the only Dark Elven nation, I'd have no problem with it. But, not all Drow can trace their "heritage" back to Ilythiir. Some are from Miyeritar, some are from Atorrnash, and so on. Theoretically, the Drow could have forgotten, and simply began calling each other 'Ilythiiri'. But, then again, maybe they didn't forget...
see 02-21-07, 07:19 PM	Well, I fail to see anything in recent lore on that matter, i.e. Underdark Well, we'll have to disagree. Underdark is October 2003. Player's Guide to Faerun is March 2004. PGtF calls the automatic language of drow in all drow-specific regions "Elven", no modifiers. Latest published lore is accordingly that the drow speak something close enough to surface elven to be considered the same language for game mechanics purposes. So it can be a dialect, but it has to be one close enough to standard Elven to allow conversation with a gold elf from Evermeet and a star elf from Sildeyuir. And the PGtF designation is consistent with all other 3.x rulebook statements both FR-specific and in D&D core. Accordingly, I see no way that the language described in TDotUD can be the normal language of the drow people in the "official" published FR setting. The language therein described is not enough like surface-spoken Elven to fit the 3.5 lore.
Stigger 02-21-07, 07:56 PM	Well, at least we still have drow handsign...
Khaelieth 02-21-07, 08:09 PM	Ssssshhhh!!! If I wanted to speak of Gaelic, I would have written Gaelic! :cool: I was speaking of Scots, which is actually a language you as a Glaswegian (?) should know about. There are three "languages" spoken (hey, I study that, so believe me!) in Scotland, Scottish English (i.e. the British Standard English with a Scottish accent), Scots (a tongue that developed in Northern Britain, coming from Anglish, not - like British Standard English - West Saxon), and Scots Gaelic, which is from Goidelic branch of the Celtic languages - originating in Ireland. *Scots, e.g., is the language of John Barbour, and for that matter Robert the Bruce, Wallace and all that. A common misconception that all Scots wore kilts and spoke Celtic Highland babble :D Och, true. I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about Gallic. My grandmother could speak it, a mate from Shetland speaks it and I sing it! But it's quite like a dialect, 'cause you will understand it if you speak English, but then again, some of it is gibberish, like a some of Robbie Burns' stuff. But for the drow, I believe that they can't understand surface elves and vice versa. As for Ilythiiri, I'd say it sounds about right. There couldn't been THAT many survivors of Miyeritar and Atornash, so they probably got assimiliated.
BrennonGoldeye 02-21-07, 08:25 PM	Well, at least we still have drow handsign... :thumbsup: :looloo: :dancin: :thumbsdow :tie:
MarkusTay63 02-22-07, 01:36 AM	MarkusTay63 So lol after reading all the other posts...does this mean Markus you ironicly didnt need to toss out your Drow Lang, post? I cant help but wonder how hard it was to come up with that Info Then just dump it:( On the bright side maybe you saved it :)Nope, just hit the backspace key until it was all gone. :( I had a large paragraph, which turned into a few sentences once I read their racial description on pg.36 of Races of faerūn. It DOES NOT mention a Drow language under the Language and literacy section. I wrote the original material based on the stuff in DotU, but that is all water under the bridge now. This is 3.5 people, get with the program! It doesn't matter what Ed says or 2e sources say, OFFICIALLY there is none! Trust me, I wish there was, it makes more sense, especially considering how many words there are in 'Drow'. It went the way of the Wheel folks, wave goodbye and wish it well. And on THAT note, in 3.5 Illythirii describes a particular group of Dark Elves that came from Illythir, end of story. There are several other places dark Elves came from too, but AFAIK Miyeritar is the only one named. If you were going to go by "what Ed said', then he claims the Drow were created by E. Gary Gygax (the EGG of coot ;) ) as his interpretation of European myths. In those myths, the dark Elves were called DockAlfen when they lived in Fäerie, so it would be safe to assume that that was their racial name pre-Toril. In Evermeet they are referred to as 'the Dark Elves', so since that is in English and no translation is given, we are left to figure out if they meant the older DockAlfen or the newer Ssri'tel'quessir. Either way, they would use 'Drow' because Lolth has instilled in them to be proud of their heritage, not ashamed. But I guess we'll find out when the new book comes out.
Another Gnome 02-22-07, 02:53 AM	But, not all Drow can trace their "heritage" back to Ilythiir. Some are from Miyeritar, some are from Atorrnash, and so on. Theoretically, the Drow could have forgotten, and simply began calling each other 'Ilythiiri'. But, then again, maybe they didn't forget... You got my meaning backwards. I'm saying that the country of Ilythiir would've been named after the word referring to dark elves as a whole, not the other way around.
Zanan 02-22-07, 04:01 AM	Well, we'll have to disagree. Underdark is October 2003. Player's Guide to Faerun is March 2004. PGtF calls the automatic language of drow in all drow-specific regions "Elven", no modifiers. Latest published lore is accordingly that the drow speak something close enough to surface elven to be considered the same language for game mechanics purposes. So it can be a dialect, but it has to be one close enough to standard Elven to allow conversation with a gold elf from Evermeet and a star elf from Sildeyuir. And the PGtF designation is consistent with all other 3.x rulebook statements both FR-specific and in D&D core. Accordingly, I see no way that the language described in TDotUD can be the normal language of the drow people in the "official" published FR setting. The language therein described is not enough like surface-spoken Elven to fit the 3.5 lore. The problem is, that if you get a general description about how a TV looks, you get a general description. If you get the description of your own TV though, i.e. a manual, you will get much more and detailed info - and relevant one for your TV set. Same with the drow and their language. If you like it in the more general way, no problem here. I don't see any reason to use general / default material over detailed stuff, even if the latter is more up to date. For IMHO, it does not superseed what is said in Underdark - as I have pointed out that the latter book says that drow speak a dialect of Elven. Now, just in case, IMHO the average Evermeetian sun elf will also have problems understanding a Yuirwood (etc.) wild elf. Maybe, in a PGtF to come, designers will not lay an emphasis on human regional dialects, but also add some more detail to the other races too.
Zanan 02-22-07, 04:28 AM	@ MarkusThay ... This is an FR board, no 3,5 board. Older material is only superseeded by relevant and specific 3,5 material. RoF (which is not free of historical errors, BTW) or the PGtF are collections of various material ... and more often than not not very detailed on specific matters. As was TDotUD or Underdark - the relevant sourcebooks. Obviously, it is up to you what you prefer or not. Same again, it is up to you whether you listen to what he who created Faerūn has to say. Underdark says that drow speak their own dialect of Elven in much the same way as Ed Greenwood detailed it beforehand. How far removed from normal "high elven" you place that is up to you, though you now also have the opinion on the arch-designer as well. The dark elves of Ilythiir as well as Miyeritar were just that, "dark" elves. The drow are the drow who also acquired the synonym "dark elves" - whether for their skin's colour or their "dark" hearts is up to you. They are 10,000+ years removed from the Ilythiiri and all that, or, in other words, twice as long removed as we are from the first pyramid-building pharaos (with probably as much continental distance between them and us as well). The dark elves were, AFAIK know, adapted from Northern/Norse Mythology, where they were called Svartalfs / Schwarzalfen i.e. literally "black elves". Their definition is not that clear, however, only that they may have belonged to the dwarves or the elves, that they were more wicked than the "light elves" and that they lived underground. Never came across "dock elves" elves before, though the dokk of Norwegian may come in contention ("hollow", "low ground"). Wouldn't stretch the imagination to far though, as the drow are clearly distinct from the beings Gygax & Co. got their name from.
Khaelieth 02-22-07, 08:11 AM	The dark elves were, AFAIK know, adapted from Northern/Norse Mythology, where they were called Svartalfs / Schwarzalfen i.e. literally "black elves". Their definition is not that clear, however, only that they may have belonged to the dwarves or the elves, that they were more wicked than the "light elves" and that they lived underground. Never came across "dock elves" elves before, though the dokk of Norwegian may come in contention ("hollow", "low ground"). Wouldn't stretch the imagination to far though, as the drow are clearly distinct from the beings Gygax & Co. got their name from. Dokk means you (plural) in a western Norwegian dialect. I speak Norwegian, being half Norwegian, though you might mean Norse, where it very well might be correct. I always thought drow originally was from a Shetland myth about trow, creatures living under ground.
Stigger 02-22-07, 08:21 AM	Unless I'm mistaken, Markus' point was that while the older sources may have differentiated the language of the surface elves with the language of the drow, PGtF, the newer and therefore more relevant source, changed that to they all speak Elven... as little sense as that makes, it is technically the 'rule' that's currently in play according to official canon. He didn't say it made sense, or even that he agreed with it, he was simply pointing this fact out. As nothing was altered in PGtF's errata, it's pretty much the way things stand 'officially'.
Zanan 02-22-07, 09:29 AM	Unless I'm mistaken, Markus' point was that while the older sources may have differentiated the language of the surface elves with the language of the drow, PGtF, the newer and therefore more relevant source, changed that to they all speak Elven... as little sense as that makes, it is technically the 'rule' that's currently in play according to official canon. He didn't say it made sense, or even that he agreed with it, he was simply pointing this fact out. As nothing was altered in PGtF's errata, it's pretty much the way things stand 'officially'. Hm ... the PGtF much like RoF are books which collect a great amount of material and compress it into one relatively small book on the whole issue - here it is about races. TDotUD and to a large extend Underdark too only deal with the drow and in far greater detail. Neither book actually contradicts the PGoF, it just gives more detail. Hence my example of the tv sets. If a new general guide about a tv set comes out and how tv in general works, will you throw the manual of your very own TV set into the bin? Hardly likely, for the general book will not tell you how to scan for new programmes or use the Timer function of your TV set, will it? Likewise with the drow and their tongue. General info in the PGtF, more detailed in Underdark. Not that I said that before ... anyway, I'll leave it at that.
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 01:41 PM	Well, at least we still have drow handsign... -High Drow Handsign, Low Drow Handsign, Elven Drow Handsign...? ;) :P You got my meaning backwards. I'm saying that the country of Ilythiir would've been named after the word referring to dark elves as a whole, not the other way around. -Oh, oh, oh. Gotcha. Well, that could be, since we don't know what Illythir, or Illythiiri mean, exactly.
Stigger 02-22-07, 04:33 PM	I get what you're saying Zanan, and largely agree with it, but from a pure rules point of view, ignoring everything else, PGtF being the newer source supercedes everything before it. It's stupid and remarkably careless from a lore point of view, but technically it's the current rule... no matter how stupid it is.
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 04:47 PM	I get what you're saying Zanan, and largely agree with it, but from a pure rules point of view, ignoring everything else, PGtF being the newer source supercedes everything before it. It's stupid and remarkably careless from a lore point of view, but technically it's the current rule... no matter how stupid it is.Thank you for backing me up Stigger, that was exactly my point. In MY game, Drow speak 'Drow' (and High Drow) which started out as Elven 26,000 years ago, but is no longer close enough to the language(s) of the surface Elves. You must remember that the Dark Elves were in FR BEFORE the fall of Tintageer, which accoring to Brians James Grand History of the Realms happened 25,000 years ago. Plenty enough time for a language to change completely. However, officially, as of right now, there is NO Drow language. I know it sucks, and doesn't make ANY sense, but thats the way I had to write it in the Netbook because we are not to change canon. We can only hope that this will be changed in the newer Drow book, but since it is core I'm sure there will still be 'discussion'. As far as where I get MY INFORMATION, the term 'Dock-alfar' comes from a 2e D&D sourcebook, the Vikings Campaign Sourcebook. The term Svartįlfar describes a different group of UNSEELIE Dark Elves, and did not resemble D&D Elves at all. AFAIK, going by what little sources are available, the Dark Elves of Faerun were still considered Seelie Elves before Tintageer fell, and were not cursed and cast out until long after the Elves lost their Fey-ness (Fey Template?). The Svartįlfar were more beastial looking by all descriptions, and would include creatures like Goblins, Orcs, and bugbears. Both terms have been used interchangeably with 'Dark Elf' , but the Svartįlfar are described as more of a cross between a troll and a Dwarf, so they had NO relationship to modern day Drow what-so-ever. The term Dock-alfer (or dökkįlfar) was used later, to describe a more Elfen-appearing Dark Elf, and is in fact the one that Gary Gygax used when designing the Drow. If you want to go with Ed's Drow, which I personally prefer, they had WHITE skin and looked very much like Elric, or the Shadow Elves (Schattenalfen) from the earlier Mystara setting.
Zanan 02-25-07, 04:52 AM	Did I say that the PGtF does not contradict Underdark and TDofUD? Yes I did. One wonders whether you take in all the material in new books with such a black and white view :nonono: And, of course, I wonder too, whether you throw the manual of your TV set into the bin because a new article on how TV sets generally work appears in a magazine etc. ...
JaiaDrottsingr 02-25-07, 09:40 AM	3) How do you pronounce 'Drow"? We have a player who pronouces it Drow as in "row your boat" while the rest go with "bow for the king" way. How do you pronounce it? smiles Both are accepted, but I think that row just sounds more... natural.
MarkusTay63 02-25-07, 10:25 AM	Did I say that the PGtF does not contradict Underdark and TDofUD? Yes I did. One wonders whether you take in all the material in new books with such a black and white view :nonono: And, of course, I wonder too, whether you throw the manual of your TV set into the bin because a new article on how TV sets generally work appears in a magazine etc. ...I have NO clue what you are even talking about anymore. I don't see anything about Drow language in the PGtF. Maybe you mean RoF? If that is so, it does not mention a Drow language in the section about language under Drow, which is exactly where I would expect to see such a language listed. Since RAW states that they speak Elven, then am I to assume that a Drow must 'grow-up' and gain a level or two before they learn to speak 'Drow'? That really wouldn't make much sense. Also, I believe you mean DotU, not Underdark, because that source only mentions a Drow sign language, not a seperate Drow language. It does mention 'Dialect' of Elven, which is really cutting hairs, because D&D doesn't have rules for 'dialects', it either is or isn't a seperate language, period. Real life has shades of gray, but rules are black and white. And yes, I do toss out my TV manual, because I'm never going to find it if I need it anyway. I can just download a new one off the web if I ever need it. ;)
Stigger 02-25-07, 11:20 AM	Gotta admit... I don't have any idea either. It pretty clearly states in the regions charts that drow speak elven. You could chalk it up to a typo or something, except that it says the same thing under half-elf regions for Dambrath... hence, the only logical conclusion is that the language thing got changed as of PGtF, since nothing appeared in the errata for it. Agree or disagree with it, I happen to disagree with the new rule, and I'm pretty sure that Markus does as well, but in a literal sense of the rules, that's the new one, and as far as pure canon goes, the only one that matters. You can houserule it into oblivion, I certainly will be, but it does not bode well for the new DotU sourcebook coming out... which is what I suspect Markus was indirectly getting at.
Zanan 02-25-07, 11:29 AM	TDotUD = The Drow of the Underdark, which gives a detailed account of the Drow's language. As has been presented above. It makes pretty clear that drow is a dialect of elven, but a distinctive one. The "written language" sample just underlines that. -> This is old info, but it is a solely FR-Drow related sourcebook and the most detailed to date. Underdark - more or less updates this, saying that the drow's language is a dialect of elven littered with words from other Underdark races. -> Very much relevant info, as it is again telling us about the specifics of the drow's language in Faerūn. It does not go into detail, for obvious (i.e. space) reasons. PGtF - Players' Guide to Faerūn - a very general book giving you basic information on a dozen of races. THEY will most definitely not go into any great detail, due to massive space restriction. As drow is still an elven dialect, they give their language as "Elven" instead of "Drow". You may now ask why they then have Chondathan or Damarran? Because - would my reply be - they consider them different human languages, such as Russian and English - very distinct languages indeed. Elven and Drow are not that distinct (English vs German), so they keep one language entry. People looking for more info - as usual, refer to detailed material. it is up to you if you ignore more detailed lore, of course.
Stigger 02-25-07, 11:53 AM	I'd disagree that German and English are not distinct languages, given the existance of letters in one that do not appear in the other, and lack of ready understanding when hearing one or another, but I'm not a linguist by any stretch, so I certainly could be wrong on that in a technical sense... but that's besides the point I suppose. As to the Underdark pointing that dialect difference out, and the PGtF not making the distinction between the two, you have a valid point there. Not sure why they couldn't have made the entry Elven (Drow), certainly wouldn't have taken up all that much space or ink, but were I to look at that not having any experience with D&D, my essential conclusion was that they spoke the same language... it's relatively true with the rest of the subraces, so why not the Drow? Wrong I know, but that's besides the point really.
Khaelieth 02-25-07, 11:53 AM	*Agrees with Zanan*
MarkusTay63 02-25-07, 02:28 PM	Mien Gott!* *Agrees with Zanan*I do to! So does Stigger. I love tDotU, and I think the language is way cool, and since there are numerous references to the 'Drow' language in various novels AND computer games I TRULY BELIEVE there IS a DROW language. Unfortunately, I can't find it anywhere in 3.x rules. :( I'm sure in EVERY campaign currently running (except for maybe Xun's because he doesn't agree with anyone) the DM uses a seperate Drow language, including mine and Stiggers. So yeah, it exists, but someone really ought to tell WotC about it.... :rolleyes: maybe they will see this thread and yell "Stop the presses!", and stick the language in the NEW book. We can only hope. *German Language quote courtesy of Kurt Wagner, AKA Nightcrawler.
Zireael 02-26-07, 04:24 AM	I hope so.
feraltibbit 02-26-07, 12:00 PM	Monster's Internataional Liberation Front, huh? Riiiiiiight. Good "re-acronyming", actually.
see 02-26-07, 06:46 PM	The difference between a dialect and a language in standard English usage of the terms is interintelligibility. Drow, as presented in FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark (1991) is not interintelligible with Elven; therefore it is a different language, not merely a dialect. In fact, FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark, specifically lists "surface elven" among the "other languages" (also including "orcish", "dwarven", and "human wizardly terms") from which Drow has borrowed vocabulary, and says the structure of Drow "has a similar structure to the Common Tongue". So the text of FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark implicitly contradicts the claim that Drow is even related to Elven, and explicitly states that Elven is a different language. Therefore, the language called Drow in FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark is absolutely not Elven by ordinary definition, and is no more a close relation of Elven in structure than Common is. On the other hand Underdark, October 2003, is explicitly clear that the language of the drow is a dialect of Elven. Under standard usage of the term dialect, Underdark therefore directly contradicts FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark, without recourse to any other book. Underdark and FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark cannot simultaneously be true. There is then the regional tables of Player's Guide to Faerun, March 2004, that has drow speaking Elven. And there is every single other Wizards of the Coast-published 3.5e and 3e sourcebook that mentions the language of the drow, both FR and non-FR, all of which say the language is Elven. These are all completely compatible with Underdark stating the language of the drow is a dialect of Elven. These are even more completely incompatible with the description of the language FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark than the Underdark text is. That is, FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark contradicts every single statement about the language of the drow in the entire corpus of 3.x FR and core rulebooks. At the same time, that corpus is completely consistent with itself when using the ordinary meaning of dialect. It's perfectly fine to prefer the language presented in FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark. I do myself. But I'm not going to pretend that it's canonical anymore, or has been at any point since the 3e FRCS was published in 2001.
Zanan 02-27-07, 04:35 AM	Well, see, the thing here is that we (well, at least I) have no real clue whether Elven as such is dissimilar to the Common tongue in structure. That is, the FR Elven, of course. So if Ed states that drow is similar to the Common tongue in structure does not make Drow a different language to Elven by default. As I said, German and English are branches of the same Germanic dialect and follow the same structure. But due to loan words, vowel shifts et al, they are not readily understandable for speakers of either of these languages by default. In this respect, I for one have no problems accepting that Drow is a dialect of Elven, much like modern German and English are dialects of a language which goes back to 400 C.E..
GothicDan 02-27-07, 05:04 PM	I just thought I'd state how ironic I found it that I just spent the last hour and a half randomly looking up stuff on Proto-Indo-European, Proto-Indo-Iranian, and Proto-Germanic derivative languages. Mmm, etymology and linguistics.