Yet another drow question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Yet another drow question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Iliyan
01-29-08, 06:44 AM So, drow by default know undercommon and elven

So, hod does the drow elven language differ from the high elven language?
is it the same, or is it different?

I was very happy to find a translator for elven that i could install on windows
( word etc..)

is there any such for drowish elven( if it indeed exists?)
Zanan
01-29-08, 08:39 AM It all depends on where you play and what you believe.

First, drow know "Elven", Common, and Undercommon.

Second, in Core, Elven is just that, Elven. Thus, by default, an elf understands a drow and vice versa.

Third and Core again, going by the optional book Drow of the Underdark, the Elven spoken by drow is just an accent of elven and they use it or Undercommon regularly - they have not created a language of their own.

Fourth, in the Realms, Drow speak Drow. Which is a dialect of Elven, but nowadays a very remote one. Much like the Germanic of the times of the Romans became Dutch, German and English nowadays. You can find a description on that in the "old" The Drow of the Underdark by Ed Greenwood. In there is also a passage describing an old dialect of Drow, so-called High Drow, more or less only spoken by the priesthood of Lolth these days and not even known by (many of) the archmages.

As in: this has been dealt with various times and many people have written differing oppinions on it over the years - not least the employees at WotC. Why they did not follow up the great work of Ed in the new DotUD is beyond me, but this was written by the younger generation of designers, the same folk now trying to sell you 4E.
Lord Karsus
01-29-08, 11:07 AM So, hod does the drow elven language differ from the high elven language?
is it the same, or is it different?

-They are related, but different. Starting from before the Descent of the Drow, Elven, more or less, is the same language as it was, as there is nothing that says the contrary. Drow were cut off from the rest of mainstream Elven civilizationafter the Descent of the Drow, and it is around this point that the two languages began diverging. Drow is, as I see it, Elven as a base language, influenced by Undercommon, and left to "grow" all on it's own. When you study the two languages, you'll see many similarities in words.

I was very happy to find a translator for elven that i could install on windows
( word etc..)

-There are various books/computer programs that detail Tolkien's Elven languages, Sindarin and Quenya. Sindarin and Quenya aren't spoken by the Elves of Faerūn, however. For a Faerūnian Elven dictionary, the only one that exists, as far as I know, is my dictionary in Elves of Faerūn.

is there any such for drowish elven( if it indeed exists?)

-If you do a quick search for 'Drow Translators' or 'Drow Dictionaries', you are going to come up with some hits. Majority of those are going to be based on the language presented in The Drow of the Underdark, as well as 'fan creations'. So, while not 100% canon, that's the best you'll get.
Zanan
01-29-08, 11:11 AM LK ... that dictionary of yours is a collection of words gathered from novels and sourcebooks, right?

As for the Realms, here's a reply Ed Greenwood gave a wee while back:

Candlekeep, June 3, 2005:
Well met again, fellow scribes. Reefy, rest assured that I shall treasure my friend and great dungeon master Ed, who herewith speaks on the matter of the language of drow: Faraer, Zandilar, et al: I believe that the language spoken by the drow of today is rooted in the elf tongue spoken by the drow before they 'went under,' but all that survives from the elvish they spoke then (which of course has continued to be spoken by other elf races, and hence developed in a different direction, changing more rapidly in the last few centuries than it ever did in earlier times, thanks to all the intermingling of elves with other races, and words being needed for new concepts and things as elves encountered genuinely new customs, industries, and so on) is a smattering of vocabulary and the grammatical structure that underpins it all. Which as Zandilar correctly points out, is the aspect of all non-Common tongues in Faerūn most neglected thus far. Most of us haven't the time to delve into full linguistic development, particularly as most publishers would regard promoting such a thing (as anything but a web enhancement) to be financial suicide. What most DMs and Realms fiction writers are looking for is a handful of useful, cool-sounding words or phrases to give flavour to the speech of nonhumans (like the orc guards the PCs are creeping up on, the elf courtiers they're eavesdropping on, or the dragon they overhear). In many cases, these will be used mixed in with Common, just as many English speakers of today lard their speech with individual words or even phrases from Spanish or French.
The reasons the drow tongue now shares so little vocabulary with surface elven speech is threefold: the Underdark is a very different environment than the Realms Above, so new names and terms were urgently needed, while a lot of words were no longer in daily use and started to fade; there was a deliberate political attempt to distance the drow from the Hated Ones who'd spurned them (other elves), just as there's a recent real-world American mood of anger against France re the political disagreements over Iraq, with moves to change "french fries" to "freedom fries" and so on; and Lolth / Lloth (and her priestesses, under her command) saw controlling the very speech of the drow as a sure means to complete dominance over other faiths (both the "former faiths" of the surface elves, and the various other faiths, such as those of Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar, and later Eilistraee, that the drow had been dabbling in). So, yes, as Zandilar commented: "Drow and Elven should be a little like Italian and French as far as differences go. They share similar origins, but today they're totally separate languages." Please bear in mind that this is just my opinion. The drow are from European mythology, Gary Gygax brought them into the D&D game (and therefore Greyhawk), and I was assigned (in writing DROW OF THE UNDERDARK) to "Realmsify" them (yup, that's the word that appears in my contract for that book), and later create a detailed D&D game presentation of Menzoberranzan to make sure "Bob's drow" were "properly in the Realms" (see the MENZOBERRANZAN boxed set, which can still be purchased in miniature form). I created Eilistraee because I was asked to create a "god for good drow" when doing TDOTU
Lord Karsus
01-29-08, 11:16 AM LK ... that dictionary of yours is a collection of words gathered from novels and sourcebooks, right?

-As well as relevant responses by Ed, yes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iliyan 01-29-08, 06:44 AM	So, drow by default know undercommon and elven So, hod does the drow elven language differ from the high elven language? is it the same, or is it different? I was very happy to find a translator for elven that i could install on windows ( word etc..) is there any such for drowish elven( if it indeed exists?)
Zanan 01-29-08, 08:39 AM	It all depends on where you play and what you believe. First, drow know "Elven", Common, and Undercommon. Second, in Core, Elven is just that, Elven. Thus, by default, an elf understands a drow and vice versa. Third and Core again, going by the optional book Drow of the Underdark, the Elven spoken by drow is just an accent of elven and they use it or Undercommon regularly - they have not created a language of their own. Fourth, in the Realms, Drow speak Drow. Which is a dialect of Elven, but nowadays a very remote one. Much like the Germanic of the times of the Romans became Dutch, German and English nowadays. You can find a description on that in the "old" The Drow of the Underdark by Ed Greenwood. In there is also a passage describing an old dialect of Drow, so-called High Drow, more or less only spoken by the priesthood of Lolth these days and not even known by (many of) the archmages. As in: this has been dealt with various times and many people have written differing oppinions on it over the years - not least the employees at WotC. Why they did not follow up the great work of Ed in the new DotUD is beyond me, but this was written by the younger generation of designers, the same folk now trying to sell you 4E.
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 11:07 AM	So, hod does the drow elven language differ from the high elven language? is it the same, or is it different? -They are related, but different. Starting from before the Descent of the Drow, Elven, more or less, is the same language as it was, as there is nothing that says the contrary. Drow were cut off from the rest of mainstream Elven civilizationafter the Descent of the Drow, and it is around this point that the two languages began diverging. Drow is, as I see it, Elven as a base language, influenced by Undercommon, and left to "grow" all on it's own. When you study the two languages, you'll see many similarities in words. I was very happy to find a translator for elven that i could install on windows ( word etc..) -There are various books/computer programs that detail Tolkien's Elven languages, Sindarin and Quenya. Sindarin and Quenya aren't spoken by the Elves of Faerūn, however. For a Faerūnian Elven dictionary, the only one that exists, as far as I know, is my dictionary in Elves of Faerūn. is there any such for drowish elven( if it indeed exists?) -If you do a quick search for 'Drow Translators' or 'Drow Dictionaries', you are going to come up with some hits. Majority of those are going to be based on the language presented in The Drow of the Underdark, as well as 'fan creations'. So, while not 100% canon, that's the best you'll get.
Zanan 01-29-08, 11:11 AM	LK ... that dictionary of yours is a collection of words gathered from novels and sourcebooks, right? As for the Realms, here's a reply Ed Greenwood gave a wee while back: Candlekeep, June 3, 2005: Well met again, fellow scribes. Reefy, rest assured that I shall treasure my friend and great dungeon master Ed, who herewith speaks on the matter of the language of drow: Faraer, Zandilar, et al: I believe that the language spoken by the drow of today is rooted in the elf tongue spoken by the drow before they 'went under,' but all that survives from the elvish they spoke then (which of course has continued to be spoken by other elf races, and hence developed in a different direction, changing more rapidly in the last few centuries than it ever did in earlier times, thanks to all the intermingling of elves with other races, and words being needed for new concepts and things as elves encountered genuinely new customs, industries, and so on) is a smattering of vocabulary and the grammatical structure that underpins it all. Which as Zandilar correctly points out, is the aspect of all non-Common tongues in Faerūn most neglected thus far. Most of us haven't the time to delve into full linguistic development, particularly as most publishers would regard promoting such a thing (as anything but a web enhancement) to be financial suicide. What most DMs and Realms fiction writers are looking for is a handful of useful, cool-sounding words or phrases to give flavour to the speech of nonhumans (like the orc guards the PCs are creeping up on, the elf courtiers they're eavesdropping on, or the dragon they overhear). In many cases, these will be used mixed in with Common, just as many English speakers of today lard their speech with individual words or even phrases from Spanish or French. The reasons the drow tongue now shares so little vocabulary with surface elven speech is threefold: the Underdark is a very different environment than the Realms Above, so new names and terms were urgently needed, while a lot of words were no longer in daily use and started to fade; there was a deliberate political attempt to distance the drow from the Hated Ones who'd spurned them (other elves), just as there's a recent real-world American mood of anger against France re the political disagreements over Iraq, with moves to change "french fries" to "freedom fries" and so on; and Lolth / Lloth (and her priestesses, under her command) saw controlling the very speech of the drow as a sure means to complete dominance over other faiths (both the "former faiths" of the surface elves, and the various other faiths, such as those of Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar, and later Eilistraee, that the drow had been dabbling in). So, yes, as Zandilar commented: "Drow and Elven should be a little like Italian and French as far as differences go. They share similar origins, but today they're totally separate languages." Please bear in mind that this is just my opinion. The drow are from European mythology, Gary Gygax brought them into the D&D game (and therefore Greyhawk), and I was assigned (in writing DROW OF THE UNDERDARK) to "Realmsify" them (yup, that's the word that appears in my contract for that book), and later create a detailed D&D game presentation of Menzoberranzan to make sure "Bob's drow" were "properly in the Realms" (see the MENZOBERRANZAN boxed set, which can still be purchased in miniature form). I created Eilistraee because I was asked to create a "god for good drow" when doing TDOTU
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 11:16 AM	LK ... that dictionary of yours is a collection of words gathered from novels and sourcebooks, right? -As well as relevant responses by Ed, yes.