Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoldDragon 12-13-07, 08:01 PM	It's is so humorous to see Medieval Reenactments of somebody wearing a Pot Helm or Great Helm without it's Armoring Cap, Coif, Gorget, Bacinet, or padded braces then wondering why they broke their nose when someone hits them a little to hard in the staged battle....lol The Armoring Cap is a padded hood that covers 3/4 of the head and can extend to the neck to allow more comfortable wearing of the layers above it and is usually quilted from silk and stuffed with Feathers though makeshift ones can use any cloth and be stuffed with cloth and straw. Next layer is the tight nit Chain Coif that gives the next and head resistance to slashing and only the most heaviest and sharpness swords could even manage to cut through it and the padded Armoring cap (assuming it got through the next 3 layers to be mentioned) Next layer is the Gorget..basically a 1/8 inch thick metal sheath for the neck and shoulders that usually has it's own padding and chain mail associated with it. It is designed to take the blunt trauma the Chain Coif alone could not and if a sword or pike cuts through it and it's padding and chain, then it would also need to get through the Coif and the Armoring cap (basically better Chance to have Ed McMahon knock on your door and declared you the winner of a Million dollars). Next thing is the Bacinet which is a 1/b thick metal helmet that covers 3/4 of the head and extends to the neck and usually comes with it's own padding and Chain netting. Basically at this point the only vulnerable spot is the Face as a properly armored person now has 7 layers of padding, chain, and 1/8 metal plating protecting everything but the face. There are Knight and Men at Arms that would Have gone into battle at this point as the chances of being beheaded are nil, the head crushed in nil, with only a slight change that someone might stab you or bash you in the face. Last step, if going for full battle dress as far as the head is concern is the Helm which is also 1/8 thick metal with it's own padding and maybe even isn't own chain mail compliment. Even with a modern gun or a Musket back then, you have to hit a so armored person in the face, not the side of the head or the back of the head if you hope to kill them with a called shot to the head as a bullet wouldn't penetrate the 9 layers of Armor on the side or back of head. Going to rest of Body....Plate Mail is 1/8 metal. and it wasn't unusual to wear padding first (mostly for comfort as well as to take blunt trauma blows), then a Chain Shirt, then the Plate Mail. When guns came to the Battle field the configuration changed to padding that had plates in it as first layer, Brigantine Armor instead of Chain as second layer, then the Plate mail....so this Idea that Many Knights fell to the gun and that is why they "went away" is silly. In actuality all that padding and Armor cost a fortune (not to mention captured Nobles needing Ransom and to be "treated well" and dead Nobles families needing compensation and/or retribution) and is very heavy while a a thousand peasants trained to fire a gun with Little to no rations or armor are "Cheap" (especially if they die in battle...don't need to feed or pay the dead ones and just need to say "sorry' to the peasant family...if the leaders even value peasent life or opinion)
Kalechaoslord 12-14-07, 08:21 AM	I think yuo are adding far more layers than necessary because you are adding items, followed by a later derivative, arming caps and bascinet for example. Try this for data: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_ghelm.html the other articles and the discussion board are also interesting.
Alkasyn 12-14-07, 05:40 PM	The point is, GoldDragon, that we aren't reenacting medieval battles here, but playing a game. There's no need for even more mechanics that woudl scare people away. Me and my players know how reality looks like, yet for the sake of the game, we keep to what's written about items in the descriptions. After all, no one wants to be bothered with tens of statistics and think" Have I bought the padded armour that goes under my plate??" I assume that everything goes together, and that the aforementioned plate already has a padded armour ,coming with it. To each his own, though, and if You like playing like that, I won't be stopping You.
GoldDragon 12-16-07, 08:24 PM	I think yuo are adding far more layers than necessary because you are adding items, followed by a later derivative, arming caps and bascinet for example. Try this for data: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_ghelm.html the other articles and the discussion board are also interesting. No, the few Nobel types and Man-at-Arms that would not let a "Peasant Weapon" fired by a peasant stop them on the Battle field are the ones that started "doubling" to reduce the damage they might receive from their "less then Equal" on the battlefield. This is no different then Cops wearing more then one layer of body armor to reduce the chance of being taken out by a Armor piercing bullet like a "cop killer" bullet In truth the "Class thing" did probably play a bigger part and fewer nobles were willing to participate in battles against Hireling armies and peasant conscriptions "beneath them" let alone possibly being killed or,worse, take prisoner by "mere Peasents"...thus less and less of them had a desire to actually be on the battle field instead of just fielding their own "pawns" to fight for them Man-at-Arms...or Professional Soldier/Mercenaries would be the only ones still probably willing to participate in a fight against a Army with Gunners (for the right Price) and "Doubling Armor" and more likely being the Leader in the back of the ranks then a actual front line fighter is more likely the role a Man-at-Arms would do on the Battlefield dominated by Gunners.
GoldDragon 12-16-07, 08:54 PM	The point is, GoldDragon, that we aren't reenacting medieval battles here, but playing a game. There's no need for even more mechanics that woudl scare people away. Me and my players know how reality looks like, yet for the sake of the game, we keep to what's written about items in the descriptions. After all, no one wants to be bothered with tens of statistics and think" Have I bought the padded armour that goes under my plate??" I assume that everything goes together, and that the aforementioned plate already has a padded armour ,coming with it. To each his own, though, and if You like playing like that, I won't be stopping You. No,No. This is part of my "So you want to use Guns in your campaign" series of postings. I am Mentioning Layering and Doubling of Armor as an "Option" for those who want to use GUns in their campaign or who have Players Begging to let them use guns in their Campaign and are afraid they might run amuk with it. As a devious DM, Imagine that your Player that has a 17th century Musket is gleefuly shooting down Knights and other armored opponets as if they were barebacked But in one particular Battle there is a group of Mercs that is after Your Gun Totter for the ZSlaughter of Lord So and So. So a battle ensues but as the Gunner tries to Pick off the Persuerers the Gun is blowing through their armor but they are still standing after being knocked back slightly from the impact and now are doubling their efforts to reach Mele Range If your Gun Totter is saying "What the #&@?" you might suggest he take a closer look at the Mercs as they close in and then mention that the Mercs, knowing how easily Lord So and So was blown away by your weapon,have "Doubled their Armor". If the Gunner and his party defeat the Mercs they will find that they all were wearing 2 layers of Plate mail over brigade Armor and flacked Padded armor It's a new confifuration wore by all the monsters that know about his new wweapon. Worse...all of a sudden Goblins and Orcs are Starting to shoot back with Muskets of their own (if just so the Player can fleece Shot and Powder off the bodies after the battle) :evillaugh
Alkasyn 12-17-07, 04:46 AM	No,No. This is part of my "So you want to use Guns in your campaign" series of postings. I am Mentioning Layering and Doubling of Armor as an "Option" for those who want to use GUns in their campaign or who have Players Begging to let them use guns in their Campaign and are afraid they might run amuk with it. As a devious DM, Imagine that your Player that has a 17th century Musket is gleefuly shooting down Knights and other armored opponets as if they were barebacked But in one particular Battle there is a group of Mercs that is after Your Gun Totter for the ZSlaughter of Lord So and So. So a battle ensues but as the Gunner tries to Pick off the Persuerers the Gun is blowing through their armor but they are still standing after being knocked back slightly from the impact and now are doubling their efforts to reach Mele Range If your Gun Totter is saying "What the #&@?" you might suggest he take a closer look at the Mercs as they close in and then mention that the Mercs, knowing how easily Lord So and So was blown away by your weapon,have "Doubled their Armor". If the Gunner and his party defeat the Mercs they will find that they all were wearing 2 layers of Plate mail over brigade Armor and flacked Padded armor It's a new confifuration wore by all the monsters that know about his new wweapon. Worse...all of a sudden Goblins and Orcs are Starting to shoot back with Muskets of their own (if just so the Player can fleece Shot and Powder off the bodies after the battle) :evillaugh Oh, if it's cause of that, I can see the idea behind it. Me and my players , we're not playing the Realms Reineissance style, though, we prefer the good old heroic fantasy, with strong knights, wise kings and sexy princesses. Still, it's useful for those who run gunpowder campaigns, for sure.