Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bloodyhellman 08-08-07, 01:00 PM	Ok, help me settle an argument. Should you be able to put armour on a golem? For background this is for the golem that a specialty cleric of Gond gets as part of his class abilities which it does list as being able to use magic items. I tend to think not as with most golems it's basically built in and I have never once heard a golem in armour. Further, helmed horrors are a golem that IS the armour they are essentially animated armour.
captaincarot 08-08-07, 01:12 PM	bah you tend to think not. if you're a DM you can do what you like, it's your job to get deep down dirty and nasty at times so go a head do it and make your players squirm. on the plus side it will give you the opportunity to describe something a bit different and stop your players reaching straight for the rod of lordly might at the mention of golem. i frequently make little changes like this to monsters so that the players don't realise what they're fighting straight off and therefore don't always get the most efficient way of killing it straight off.
WizO_Mimir 08-08-07, 04:56 PM	Of course you can put armor on a golem. :D An armor bonus to AC stacks with any natural armor bonus a golem may have, so it will provide it with improved protection. However, there are a few things I would recommend in order to keep things balanced. First, reconcile it visually -- as was pointed out, putting armor on an iron golem or shield guardian is kinda silly, given that they're fashioned out of metal and can be made to resemble any suit of armor desired. Second, since golems are not proportioned the same as normal bipeds, stock armor won't fit them. Any armor you put on a golem should have to be specially crafted, costing more money than normal. Third, since the players will obtain the armor if they defeat the golem, it should count as part of the treasure you award for the encounter. They won't be able to wear it, but a party wizard might be able to fashion his own golem that can use it, or the armor could be sold to a wizard wanting to fashion a golem. Disposing of the armor makes a good adventure hook. WizO_Mimir RPG Boards Lead
Dimensional_Drifter 08-08-07, 10:52 PM	Why bother with armor on a golem? A stronger golem with more natural AC does almost the same thing as armor right? besides golems really don't need armor, and can be made out of the same material as armor.
godbeepit 08-08-07, 11:53 PM	Why bother with armor on a golem? A stronger golem with more natural AC does almost the same thing as armor right? besides golems really don't need armor, and can be made out of the same material as armor. Obviously for the incredibly high AC. The armor bonus from the armor should theoretically stack with the natural armor bonus the golem already has because they are both different types of bonuses. However, the obvious problem is that it is highly illogical for most golems to be walking around in armor. The first that arises would be the iron golem simply because he IS a suit of armor in essence. How can a suit of armor protect a suit of armor? Alas, the rules work in the players favor, but I would just house-rule against it as a common-sense/fair-play clause.
runestar 08-09-07, 12:59 AM	Mage armour can be cast on golems, since it ignores sr.
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 10:42 AM	Obviously for the incredibly high AC. The armor bonus from the armor should theoretically stack with the natural armor bonus the golem already has because they are both different types of bonuses. However, the obvious problem is that it is highly illogical for most golems to be walking around in armor. The first that arises would be the iron golem simply because he IS a suit of armor in essence. How can a suit of armor protect a suit of armor? Alas, the rules work in the players favor, but I would just house-rule against it as a common-sense/fair-play clause. Why would it be illogical to put armor on a golem? Golems cost A LOT and armor (nonmagical) doesn't cost nearly what a golem costs, really, when it comes down to it, why wouldn't you put armor on your golem? You'd have to repair the armor (which might be able to be done with a mending spell) vs repairing the golem, which costs big bucks. I'd even put leather on a golem if I didn't have anything better, those things are just too pricey to let them get damaged if you can avoid it.
godbeepit 08-10-07, 11:44 AM	I apologize, my wording was poorly chosen. It should have read "it is highly illogical for most golems to actually gain any benefit from armor." Exceptions to this being, off the top of my head, flesh golems as they are made of flesh just like normal creatures and should gain bonuses just the same. It was intended for iron golems essentially as well as many others. It just seems odd that a walking suit of armor gets additional protection from wearing a suit of armor. As I said, by the rules it works, I just don't like the way it feels.
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 11:52 AM	I apologize, my wording was poorly chosen. Not a problem, clarity is often elusive on the first try. :) As I said, by the rules it works, I just don't like the way it feels. I can understand that, however, if the sword hits the breastplate that is worn by the golem then it's not hitting the golem itself. It's really just the same as a golem using a weapon or a shield, though a weapon or a shield would require "additional programing" IMO. In fact, I could see a requirement for "additional programing" for wearing armor, both of these could be mechanically represented as the golem having no base armor feats or weapon abilities (ie. the golem would need a feat in order to wear light armor, an additional to get to medium, ect the golem would start with no weapon skills and would need a feat to gain simple weapons, an additional for martial, etc same with shield) Basically, this would be a specialized golem that would require more in the way of creation cost, xp and materials.
godbeepit 08-10-07, 02:20 PM	Whoo! Way over my head. Never did anything in-depth on specific rules for golems so I'll just nod my head in agreement.:ayyyy!:
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 02:26 PM	Whoo! Way over my head. Never did anything in-depth on specific rules for golems so I'll just nod my head in agreement.:ayyyy!: Most of that is just rough guesses based upon other work I've done, I'm not much of a golem expert at all. :) I was just trying to figure a mechanical way to explain why almost every golem in existence doesn't wear armor and that's all I could come up with off the top of my head. ;) But if you have a Monsters Manual then check out the section on advancing monsters and on customizing monsters (raising ability scores, changing feats, etc).
godbeepit 08-10-07, 05:18 PM	Oh, I know about advancing monsters and customizing monsters. But, I prefer not to read too many specifics on monsters because then as a player it takes some of the fun out of the game. A few years ago I could recognize and name any monster, and it really has a big impact. So I don't know too much about different types of monsters and don't have a good handle on special abilities. It really is fun when you honestly don't know more than your character. When you have to figure out how to handle the situation instead of saying, "Hey, wizard. Yeah, you. Don't cast any fire spells; they obviously heal it" at the start of the encounter. But yes, I can advance monsters if I wanted to. My DM just hogs the spotlight.:P
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 05:57 PM	But yes, I can advance monsters if I wanted to. My DM just hogs the spotlight.:P Ahhhh, very good, good player. :) I'm coming from the DM perspective.
godbeepit 08-10-07, 08:45 PM	I like to think of it that way. :D
Slayergnome 08-15-07, 04:02 AM	I like the idea of a Flesh golem in armor to hide the physical features that mark him as a golem of that variety. So when they come upon a unarmed humanoid in armor the players get a little cocky. He starts slamming them with his fist attacks and its only after they kill him and check him over that they find out "Oh a Golem." Gotta keep those players thinking what just around the corner.
421 08-15-07, 06:33 AM	Doesn't they require the armor group proficiency feats ?
Kid SixXx 08-15-07, 06:45 AM	Doesn't they require the armor group proficiency feats ? Yep. If normal mortals are required to have them in order to be proficient with armor groups, then so should golems. Funny how people like to stick it to mortals, but forget that the mechanics treat monsters the same way when it comes to feat requirements.
ShadezofDis 08-15-07, 09:49 AM	Yep. If normal mortals are required to have them in order to be proficient with armor groups, then so should golems. Funny how people like to stick it to mortals, but forget that the mechanics treat monsters the same way when it comes to feat requirements. We've only touched upon feats. Further, the MM have some pretty loose rules regarding armor, weapon and shield proficiencies. Not for constructs so much, but humanoids and monstrous humanoids have some pretty fuzzy rules in this regard and these rules probably mean that certain monstrous humanoids or humanoids have more feats than the rules would typically allow them to have. Since the OP is talking about a specific ability of a specific character then I'd have to look at the book with the ability in it. If the cleric in question created the golem then I would find it perfectly fine for them to go on a quest in order to find a specific "earth spirit" that would be able to gain skills and feats, capture that spirit and bind that spirit to the golem (I would also, as a DM, make the spirit an individual, with it's own allies and enemies and the chance that the spirit might break free of control, which could be gained back but might make for some difficult situations). Certainly not an easy task, but if you're creating golems then it's a task you can probably handle. Last but not least, a DM is always free to fudge the rules in whatever way they see fit. (armoring golems, giving them weapons, ect)
Mordayn 08-16-07, 08:18 AM	I'd allow a golem to wear armor, but obviously it has to be custom made to fit the golem unless the golem is shaped like a regular humanoid. It must also be of the correct size. Since golems usually don't have feats they wouldn't be proficient in the armor and thus suffer the regular disadvantages of such.
MarkHall 08-16-07, 10:22 AM	Golems have a lot of HD. I'm pretty sure that a proficient creator could design armor proficiency into his creation.
ShadezofDis 08-16-07, 10:37 AM	In reply to Mark's post, since I can't seem to quote it (due to the site, not my ineptitude ;)) The only thing you need to do is get the golem intelligence somehow, because it states in the MM that constructs without an int score don't have skills or feats. So. . . if you had a headband of intellect involved in the creation process then that might do the trick. ::shrugs::
ElMorte 08-16-07, 05:10 PM	The only thing you need to do is get the golem intelligence somehow, because it states in the MM that constructs without an int score don't have skills or feats. Try the "Awaken Construct" Spell from Savage Species. Should be a start.
godbeepit 08-16-07, 11:29 PM	Hmm, never heard of that spell. Also, Shades, since when has a headband of intellect given a creature intelligence? I didn't... well you know... think that one was possible.
ShadezofDis 08-17-07, 10:31 AM	Hmm, never heard of that spell. Also, Shades, since when has a headband of intellect given a creature intelligence? I didn't... well you know... think that one was possible. I'm just doing some free thinking here, nothing that's really solid. From reading the Headband of intellect it sounds like it wouldn't work with a Golem since a Golem doesn't have an intelligence score, rather than having a zero for intelligence (the distinction here, I believe, is important). However, I'm not really satisfied with the whole Golems are powered by spirits but do not have intelligence. If the spirit acts purely as a battery to power the Golem, rather than directing it's movements, then I guess it works but since the Golem can follow commands then that implies a certain level of memory, judgement, ect. Anyhow, sounds like the "Awaken Construct" spell (which I haven't read either) would be the perfect solution, you'd just have to work it into the Golem creation because I assume the spell doesn't retroactively grant feats and skills for HD the construct already possesses, but that is an assumption. :)
MarkHall 08-19-07, 02:05 AM	I was simply thinking building the capability into the Golem. It may not be able to LEARN feats, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't be designed into them by their creator.
ShadezofDis 08-19-07, 12:37 PM	I was simply thinking building the capability into the Golem. It may not be able to LEARN feats, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't be designed into them by their creator. That seems like it'd be workable, but the real problem for me is that I've not ever heard of a golem in armor in any lore. The problem with that is that it would seem (because an omission doesn't necessarily mean that something is not there, in other words, just because no book states "sometimes wizards make golems in armor" doesn't mean that wizards don't make golems in armor *g*) that there is no real precedent for this. (ie. Manshoon doesn't have golems in armor, nor does El, ect ect ect) Since there's no real precedent for it (and it'd make golems that much tougher) I decided that it should be very difficult to grant the ability. (Which is why I'm talking about finding a particular spirit to bind or whatever, rather than saying "Just follow the Rod of Metamagic creation, since that item actually grants a feat." :) I also just thought about that, which seems like it'd be REALLY simple to do.)
MarkHall 08-20-07, 12:39 AM	I would think that part of the reason Manshoon and El don't have golems in armor is they don't know how to use it, themselves.
Straploknight 10-01-07, 05:04 PM	The 1st Ed module A3 - Arie of the Slave Lords had an armored flesh golem, was one of the best pics in the module. http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/pics/jeffdee/jdee_art_bw04.jpg http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD1/greyhawk/v5748btpy7mde This is one of my all time favorite modules series, wish they'd give it the hard cover treatment like Undermountain or Castle Greyhawk.
Puritan13 10-02-07, 02:40 PM	nvm, my point was already pointed out
Legdiwena 10-03-07, 05:08 PM	The golem wouldn't need feats to wear armor, just not to take penalty. No extra training needed for armor/weapons. IIRC, magic armor automatically sizes to fit.
Purple Dragon Knight 10-04-07, 01:06 PM	Read the rules fellows! :D From the SRD/MonsterManual, under "Contruct Type:" "—Proficient with its natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with any weapon mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with no armor." There. Constructs can't wear armor. The Gondsman construct from the Techsmith is the only exception I know: these guys are not mindless constructs (Int 4) and their description specifically state they can use/wear magical items (although, IMC, I insist they be constructed by the Techsmith owner and custom fitted to the Gondsman)
Suin Bahhar 10-04-07, 06:13 PM	So Gondsmen can take skills and feats? Neat.
Legdiwena 10-06-07, 03:04 PM	Since when does non-proficiency mean you can't use weapons/armor?
Stigger 10-10-07, 08:01 AM	It doesn't... you don't have to have an intelligent car to stick armor plating on it. And even if it was intelligent, it still wouldn't stop the degradation of performance from the increased weight. I don't see any reason why you couldn't upgrade the AC of a golem with armor plating. Maybe when you construct it you could include mounting points so that you could attach or remove armor plate at stress areas that are likely to see a lot of wear and tear or something... who cares if they aren't proficient? It's not like a golem is going to bob and weave in the first place, it's just gonna come straight at you and try to bash your head in, without worrying much, if at all, about evading your attacks. The whole AC thing as I see it isn't so much actually hitting it, as it is actually hurting it.
Purple Dragon Knight 10-13-07, 04:24 PM	By the way, here's the Gondsman I devised for a player in my campaign (Cleric8/Techsmith10) The Naaniites Upgrade (Shoulder-Mounted Enhanced Bombs Launcher) is my creation, and therefore the only thing diverging from canon when I statted the creature. Note the five feats the Gondsman has, due to his 13 HD... Name: Twerp Creature: Gondsman Creature Type Medium Construct Hit Dice: 13 hit points: 122.5 (102.5 from HD; 20hp medium construct bonus) Initiative: +1 BAB/Grapple: +16/+11/+6/+1 // +21 grapple *** (+25+dmg.dealt grapple check vs. incoming attempt to initiate grapples) Speed: 20 ft (heavy armor) AC: 29 (+10 armor, +4 shield, +5 natural) Attacks: melee +23/+18/+13/+8 (battleaxe +1, weap focus, +5 STR bonus) Damage: 1d8 + 6 dmg +1d4 sonic dmg (screaming adamantine battleaxe +1) Face/Reach: 5 ft / 5 ft. Special Attacks: Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Proficient With Any Equipment Appropriate to its Size (Ex), Techsmith "1 hp per hour" Fast Repair (Ex), Mending "1 hp per casting" Repair (Su), Techsmith Upgrades (Ex), Empathic Link (Su), Shoulder-Mounted Enhanced Bombs Launcher (Ex) -- See below Saves: Fort +4 / Ref +5 / Will +5 Abilities: Str 20***, Dex 12, Con -, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 6 Senses: Low-light vision; Darkvision 60 ft Alignment: Neutral Skills: jump + 15 (16 ranks + 5 STR bonus -6 armor check penalty) Feats: Weapon Focus (Battleaxe), Power Attack, Closed-quarter Fighting, Improved Overrun, Shieldmate ***Stats include the following upgrades: (9) Techsmith Upgrade: Str +1 (x2) Techsmith Upgrade: BAB +1 (x7) (+1 to STR at 4th, 8th and 12th HD) Nahnniites Upgrade: SMEBL (Unmanned: full attack by TWERP at +17/+12/+7/+2 ranged touch vs. AC 5, 2d8, 15ft-radius, 50 feet range increment; Manned: same but with user's range touch, and TWERP can take other actions; Manned by Gnomish Gunner (TWERP can take other actions or assist the Gunner's Aim): user's ranged touch or TWERP's +17/+12/+7/+2, whichever is higher, vs. AC 5 for 2d8+1, 20ft-radius, 50 feet range increment OR vs. target's touch AC for 2d8+1d12+1, x3 critical (19-20/x3 for Alden), 20ft-radius, 100 feet range increment, and one charge of smokepowder required; IF TWERP ASSISTS GUNNER'S AIM: +5 to hit on all attacks OR +10 damage on each attack, Gunner's decision) Possessions: adamantine screaming battleaxe +1 (+1d4 sonic dmg per hit), large acidic steel shield +2 (2d4dmg/round of contact with grappling creatures), full plate of landing +2 (ignore first 60 feet of a fall and always land on your feet), Crystal of Glancing Blows, Lesser (attached to full plate of landing +2, provides +5 bonus on grapple checks to prevent a grapple from being initiated), Crystal of Acid Protection, Lesser (attached to large acidic shield +2, provides acid resistance 10, up to a maximum of 50 points per day) backback, three large sacks 100 feet of rope, internal storage for 15 enhanced bombs
Another Gnome 10-15-07, 07:48 AM	To recap: Being nonproficient causes the wearer to take the armor check penalty of the armor on attack rolls, and on all Strength and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. Padded armor, leather armor, masterwork studded leather, and mithral chain shirt have no armor check penalty, so anyone can wear those without worrying about said penalties. As for magical armor resizing itself to fit the wearer, that only applies within same size category and general body shape. (The rules are somewhat ambiguous, but the magic armor section of DMG refers to the rules on armor for unusual characters in PH, implying such a limit to exist on the morphic qualities).
GoldDragon 10-19-07, 07:59 PM	Ok, help me settle an argument. Should you be able to put armour on a golem? For background this is for the golem that a specialty cleric of Gond gets as part of his class abilities which it does list as being able to use magic items. I tend to think not as with most golems it's basically built in and I have never once heard a golem in armour. Further, helmed horrors are a golem that IS the armour they are essentially animated armour. Depends on the size of the Golem. If it is akward sizes and unevenly proportioned compared to a HUman or what a magically conformiong armor can handle then it would have to be custom fit. Had a PC that had a "animated combat dummy" a "toy" that was more of a training tool but since it was human sized arming it and having it run around as a Henchie makes perfect "sense" (The Animated combat dummy's name was "KEP" and it had the statistics of a Fighter 2 levels higher then the Highest level of the PC as part of the "unique toy", that could train as well as actually act as a "bodyguard" able to use all armor, weapons and even magic items)