Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Salkyre 06-02-07, 01:52 PM	Any comments on what the best bow for the money is, I like the Bone bow, not sure what book its from, but its my favorite so far. Salkyre
The_Shaman 06-05-07, 06:09 PM	Greatbow is okay. I've heard that elven double bows can be a bit broken, but haven't used them for my own characters.
lint trap 06-11-07, 04:22 PM	Composite Longbow, because you don't have to burn a feat to use it. But make it a Dragoncraft bow (from Draconomicon), so you'll get an extra 20 ft. of range.
Mastergrubb 06-15-07, 11:55 PM	The best bow by far is the elvencraft bow in races of the wild. It can be a bow of str but the best part is that in hth it acts like a quarterstaff or a club if you use a shortbow magic adjustments are made either to the range att or the hth att or both.;)
Passivearmada 06-17-07, 10:54 PM	you know, i never play a ranger/ archer because i know that there isnt a truly awesome bow out there that is capable of causing mass suffering, except on the 4 hp orcs. i considered the greatbow, and i dont have the cash to buy all the weapons books, so thats the best one i know about. a d12 bow would be a bit too much, but soooo tempting :evillaugh:plotting::evillaugh also, arrows are a problem. sure, you can bring a hundred arrows, but if youre ambushed or thown into a battle, 100 arrows can become 50 in afew rounds. and then 25. and then- the dreaded moment where you reach back to find nothing but air! :banghead::doh::mymy::twitch: very mixed emotions. if there is a primary archer in the party, ill usually incorporate an enchanted quiver that respawns arrows or brings them in from another little plane. :)
The_Shaman 06-18-07, 11:46 AM	you know, i never play a ranger/ archer because i know that there isnt a truly awesome bow out there that is capable of causing mass suffering, except on the 4 hp orcs. i considered the greatbow, and i dont have the cash to buy all the weapons books, so thats the best one i know about. a d12 bow would be a bit too much, but soooo tempting :evillaugh:plotting::evillaugh also, arrows are a problem. sure, you can bring a hundred arrows, but if youre ambushed or thown into a battle, 100 arrows can become 50 in afew rounds. and then 25. and then- the dreaded moment where you reach back to find nothing but air! :banghead::doh::mymy::twitch: very mixed emotions. if there is a primary archer in the party, ill usually incorporate an enchanted quiver that respawns arrows or brings them in from another little plane. :) Arrows should not be a serious problem as soon as you get dimension baggage devices. I think a handy haversack can have quite a few quivers (not to mention a bag of holding) and even an efficient quiver can last for a while. Until then, you might as well learn not to get in a situation that will involve you to fire 200+ arrows; these tend to be more than a little dangerous for low-level PCs anyway. However, I am quite sure there was a magic item that is always full... If not, I am sure some wizard could improvize with the wondrous item feat and the fabricate spell. It should not be exceptionally expensive for higher-level PCs.
Darkarcher736 06-18-07, 01:03 PM	I like the Bow of Elvenkind from Complete Champion:)
Eccerion 06-18-07, 02:19 PM	My fighter has a bow as an alternative weapon. If we get into a situation where the enemy is either to far of to hack with a sword or they start shooting at us and it would be inadvisable to run closer to meet them, I know I have the option to send arrows into them from afar, and with a composite bow the strength bonus to damage can still play its part. Personally I thik everyone in a party should have a ranged weapon, be it a bow, sling or just throwing darts, you never know when you'll be in a situation where you need to throw something at something/someone, and if you dont need it? just drop it, better to have something and not need it, then need something and not have it:)
Passivearmada 06-24-07, 07:21 PM	i wanted to bring in a quiver that regenerated arrows almost immediately, but i figured that it was too much like Taulmaril, The Heartseeker, Cattie-Brie's bow from the Drizzt books.
Salkyre 06-27-07, 11:10 AM	what is the elven double bow you mentioned? what book is it in?
dragonheart 06-29-07, 08:45 AM	I'll take a light swordbow - works as a light composite bow and then morphs into a rapier or scimitar (or broadsword in my campaign) And since I can't resist :D a quick recap of bows from the real world: 2 main types: self bows and composite Self - made from a single piece of wood and with a single curve to it - pulling the string compresses one side while stretching the other so two different sections of the tree (heartwood and sapwood) need to be incorporated in the shaft to better meet the spring requirements. Composite - made from a group of different materials picked to improve the "springyness" of the basic wood. THese also use a "recurved" shape with 3 arcs as the bow is pulled which combine to greatly increase the strength of the bow. In general either bone or horn (or potentially metal in a world like Faerun) are applied to the inner (compression) side and tendon/sinew applied to the outer (tension) side to increase the spring action of each side and to stabilize the wood core so it doesn't break under the greater loads. both can be made as either long (4-6 feet) bows or short (2-3 feet) bows. In general, the longer the bow the milder the arc it needs to pulled thru to fire and the lower the chance for breakage at a given "pull" size. ALso the longer the bow arms are the greater the maximum pull strength. Short bows suffer here since they are both more likely to break since you need to draw them through a much larger arc to get the same force and can't reach the sorts of maximum forced acheived by the larger bows. so they have shorter ranges and less force generally. The problem is that long bows at maximum size are difficult to manuever in tight spaces or when on horseback. They are great when used in massed open formations or when being used in open (ie little or no underbrush) forests where there is room for them. In tight quarters (like a dungeon) or dense forest/jungle the size of the long bow makes it nearly useless while the short bow comes into it s own. its small size makes it much more manueverable and its range limitations don't matter since you are never going to be firing that far anyway. It is also a better choice on horseback where its small size makes it more manueverable around the horse's head and body - but it does lack range. This lead most horseback cultures to invent composite bows where the added materials keep the wood core from breaking under extreme bending and provide additional spring actions greatly increasing the power to length ratio and range and force of the bow. In general a well made composite short bow should have the same (or greater) range and power as long self bow. This basically makes the composite short bow the ideal bow for adventurers. light, easy to carry, manueverable indoors and out, long ranged and full powered - then add any racial or magical bonuses you like.
Salkyre 06-30-07, 03:11 PM	ok, thats pretty cool, any idea what book it is in? ;)
dragonheart 07-02-07, 09:28 AM	what? the sword-bow? its in several I think but I pulled the light version from the Magic Item compendium.
ThornTheWanderer 07-02-07, 01:54 PM	I'll take a light swordbow - works as a light composite bow and then morphs into a rapier or scimitar (or broadsword in my campaign) And since I can't resist :D a quick recap of bows from the real world: 2 main types: self bows and composite Self - made from a single piece of wood and with a single curve to it - pulling the string compresses one side while stretching the other so two different sections of the tree (heartwood and sapwood) need to be incorporated in the shaft to better meet the spring requirements. Composite - made from a group of different materials picked to improve the "springyness" of the basic wood. THese also use a "recurved" shape with 3 arcs as the bow is pulled which combine to greatly increase the strength of the bow. In general either bone or horn (or potentially metal in a world like Faerun) are applied to the inner (compression) side and tendon/sinew applied to the outer (tension) side to increase the spring action of each side and to stabilize the wood core so it doesn't break under the greater loads. both can be made as either long (4-6 feet) bows or short (2-3 feet) bows. In general, the longer the bow the milder the arc it needs to pulled thru to fire and the lower the chance for breakage at a given "pull" size. ALso the longer the bow arms are the greater the maximum pull strength. Short bows suffer here since they are both more likely to break since you need to draw them through a much larger arc to get the same force and can't reach the sorts of maximum forced acheived by the larger bows. so they have shorter ranges and less force generally. The problem is that long bows at maximum size are difficult to manuever in tight spaces or when on horseback. They are great when used in massed open formations or when being used in open (ie little or no underbrush) forests where there is room for them. In tight quarters (like a dungeon) or dense forest/jungle the size of the long bow makes it nearly useless while the short bow comes into it s own. its small size makes it much more manueverable and its range limitations don't matter since you are never going to be firing that far anyway. It is also a better choice on horseback where its small size makes it more manueverable around the horse's head and body - but it does lack range. This lead most horseback cultures to invent composite bows where the added materials keep the wood core from breaking under extreme bending and provide additional spring actions greatly increasing the power to length ratio and range and force of the bow. In general a well made composite short bow should have the same (or greater) range and power as long self bow. This basically makes the composite short bow the ideal bow for adventurers. light, easy to carry, manueverable indoors and out, long ranged and full powered - then add any racial or magical bonuses you like. good information on bows...if somewhat inaccurate in parts. the Japanese Daikyu was designed to be used either on horseback or on foot. and in the Realms, a bow from Kara-Tur could easily be a daikyu http://eclay.netwiz.net/translat/kyudo.htm
dragonheart 07-04-07, 10:03 AM	good information on bows...if somewhat inaccurate in parts. the Japanese Daikyu was designed to be used either on horseback or on foot. and in the Realms, a bow from Kara-Tur could easily be a daikyu http://eclay.netwiz.net/translat/kyudo.htm the daikyu is really an exotic weapon not a typical bow. it is a long bow by size but by moving hte grip and firing section downward from the middle it provides a means of getting most of the power of a long bow while riding (or seated) but learning to handle it in either position calls for specialized training. in my campaign (at least) it can't be used with jsut the standard bow skill - a PC would need to take the exotic weapon feat and specify the Daikyu hence I left it out completly. Secondly while its true that a character with a backstory bringing them from Karature might have the skill and weapon (especially if they are either a Samuri or Ronin) such characters are/should be so rare as to be not worth mentioning in regular discusions.
ThornTheWanderer 07-06-07, 09:18 AM	I can see your point. But any discussion of bows should include the daikyu, or any other bow type weapon. I do like the idea of the daikyu being an exotic weapon. To be honest, I hadn't really given that much thought. As a traditional archer myself, (I shoot a 50# oak longbow with wooden, hand fletched arrows), I found what you wrote very informative, just felt it lacked a few minor details.
dragonheart 07-06-07, 01:18 PM	the Daikyu takes a bit of getting used to - even for someone proficient with a longbow that is why its treated as a exotic weapon. Especially on horseback it can be a problem. now the philosophy behind zen archery - that I like - of course it too really represents a feat you would have to take as well - may be someday I'll write up a draft of it. SInce the OP was asking waht the best bow for the money was I went with mainstream bows. In game the only time the Daikyu should really appear is wiht specialized Kara-turian PCs/NPC where it fits the character concept. with that in mind its nice but has no real place in Faerun or the discussion of the best bow for the money. To me the short composite bow is the best ofr the money. then you can add on masterwork & magical additions and permutations to suite the character. the swordbow is a nice touch since it converts from bow to sword quickly and easily so you don't have to drop the bow & draw the sword. only real problem is that the light swordbow doesn't convert to a longsword which I like better than a rapier. Still especially for elven, halfling and gnome characters Its sort of an ideal weapon.
ThornTheWanderer 07-08-07, 02:11 PM	See, I'm more of a longbow man myself. And lately I have been getting into the composite bows. The STR bonus helps, since rangers got cheesed down to a d8. (But don't get me started on that......:mad: )
Passivearmada 07-08-07, 09:12 PM	agreed, thorn. thats why i usually use the greatbow from the complete warrior. 1d10. its nice- usually, u get an average of 1d10+2 if u have the money. one thing thats smart is choose bows or dual-wielding fighting, and then take bonus feats in the other class. its a nice surprise when u say "$#!+, im out of arrows....ah, well- i pull out my twin rapiers and charge in." or any combination. that swhy i love 2 weapon fighting :)
ThornTheWanderer 07-09-07, 02:08 PM	in 2nd Edition, two weapon fighting was a viable option for rangers, since they had a d10 like other warrior classes, and could take the punishment of melee combat. However, with a d8, I'll take the archery track. Let the Fighters, Paladins (d10) and Barbarians (d12) handle the front lines.
dragonheart 07-10-07, 03:01 PM	Actually TWF is a viable path - especially if you keep taking the advanced feats. at low level you get double the number of attacks and even with the -2 you end up getting more hits than the fighter so even if the second weapon is a small weapon with less damage you end up dealing more damage on average than the fighter: example: 1 ranger lvl 2 and 1 fighter lvl 2 - both have strength 10 both trying to hit a moving level 0 with no armour (AC 10), nonmagical long swords, ranger has a hand axe as second weapon (no criticals): Fighter - hits on an 8+ so hits 12/20 times for 60% doing 1 D8 damage on a hit (average damage 4pts) for an average damage each round of .6*4= 2.4 HP/round. Ranger - hits on a 10+ because of the -2 on each attack so hits first attack 50% of the time and second attack 50% of the time doing an average of 2 points each round with his sword (.5 * 4pts) + an average of 1.5 points each round with his handaxe (.5*(.5 *6)) for a total of 3.5 points of damage a round. If both have the same aromour class (via armour, dexterity and magic) the ranger will actually last longer on average since he does more damage and takes foes out faster (if nothing else he saves himself from a lot of "dying blows" in the third/fourth round by killing the foe in the second/third round when they were going to get an attack anyway. The real trick with such a ranger is to make sure that their AC keeps pace via magic or dexterity increases.
Passivearmada 07-10-07, 05:06 PM	...and bows are nice because you can pick off foes from a distance. you can get really fancy with all the bow feats, and the arcane archer prestige class (assuming your an elf, but honestly- if you're gonna be an archer, go elf). bows can be helpful, especially when you're severely wounded, your cleric is healing the other party members, and the second wave of orcs is coming. two longbows can narrow that wave down to half its men if you fortify yourself on a hill, like....this one army about a thousand years ago fortified themselves on a hill, cause they were outnumbered like 3 to 1, so they made bigger bows, to pick 'em off from a distance, and hey...guess who won? the little army. i cant remember who it was, but if i could find my Age of Empires 2disc, i culd tell you- you have to fight out that battle. or maybe it was on Rise of Nations. and im trying to remember if that how the longbow was invented..... ah, well- you get my point. which is bows are just as good as two weapons.
Passivearmada 07-10-07, 05:30 PM	i looked it up and i believe i was thinking of the battle of agincourt, in which the british were greatly outnumbered, though exaggerations were common back then (research shows that it was at least 3 to 1, in the french's favor, and possibly more). they weren't on a hill, but did use the terrain to their advantage. heavily armored french troops drowned in the mud when they were knocked down, and the archers could easily pick them off on the ground if they didn't drown. at one point, the british archers gathered between 2 sections of trees, and set polings, (like spears in the ground, to stop cavalry charges). french order was kind of abandoned as the cavalry decided to charge to where they saw the enemy retreat. when they arrived to find themselves unable to flank, due to the thick trees, and unable to continue, due to the polings, they retreated. the british archers, behind the polings, shot the horses in their flanks, and we all know what happens when you hit a horse there. the horses went ballistic and uncontollable, and charged in the direction they were headed- back to the french infantry. lots of the infantry positions were either scattered or trampled as the uncontrollable mounts waded in. with the right mind and clever use of terrain, bows can be extremely crucial in determining defeat from victory. but, you know, TWF is pretty cool, too.
ThornTheWanderer 07-11-07, 12:01 AM	dragonheart, you have valid points, one and all. However, if you take into consideration that Fighter, Paladins and Barbarians will QUICKLY outpace the poor ranger in the hit point department, the archery track is really the best way to go with a 3.5 ranger. (and no, I do NOT recognize evil rangers...BAH!) there are times when I really think that rangers got totally raped in 3rd edition....
dragonheart 07-11-07, 08:42 AM	dragonheart, you have valid points, one and all. However, if you take into consideration that Fighter, Paladins and Barbarians will QUICKLY outpace the poor ranger in the hit point department, the archery track is really the best way to go with a 3.5 ranger. (and no, I do NOT recognize evil rangers...BAH!) there are times when I really think that rangers got totally raped in 3rd edition.... Thanks - Its nice to be appreciated :D Your right the ranger does fall behind in hit points eventually. There are a couple of things you can do to help this out. Way back in 1e the ranger also had a D8 - but at level 1 it got 2 and then a D8/level from there on out. si ti started with generally more and then around level 10 it broke even and so by level 20 while it was behind it was not far behind. Thisa is actually not a bad way to do things in 3.x if your DM will allow it. the other thing I do is to simply grant max HP on the level 1 die roll. you do start off wiht 2 fewer HP than a fighter but at least you start off with a full 8 + COn Bonus HP. :) what a ranger really needs to do is run both the TWF and the Archery tracks - so that he can do double duty. the extra abilities he is given with levels are there to free up his feats for jsut this purpose in my NSH opinion.:rolleyes: The problem with only going archery is that you will be foreced into combat with some frequency and then you really are not much better than a rogue without the extra damage from TWF. At least going TWF you can still use a bow fairly effectively even without the feats. If you use the available feats to match or run a somewhat altered bow progression as well as the TWF then you can have a fairly awsome mixed combatant who can do major damage from the second row - even in combat; and can step up and be truely deadly in melee combat if problems inthe front row occur. In 1e I had a level 14 ranger with the equivalent of 2 weapon fighting step to the front (actualy jump into the room and close the door) to face about 8-12 mixed giants when we ran into them by accident and all the fighters were severly injured while he wasa still fresh (from firing arrows from the row 2). he lost 80% of his HP in that combat but he killed all the giants (and got all the experience) for that little bit of player bravado :P
The_Shaman 07-11-07, 09:03 AM	Well, an archer should get a good melee weapon, sure. However, I think that going with a single weapon and a buckler - which IIRC you can use without problem when shooting a bow, since you do not wield a weapon in that hand - might be more appropriate than TWF. Since it is a backup option, it is fair to assume that you use it only when things are really dire - and in such situations, higher AC may be a priority.
Passivearmada 07-11-07, 10:44 AM	i think that if you know your party is being played by smart people that will have a battle plan, then you should be an archer, unless the plan says otherwise. TWF is useful if you have some defensive fighting feats thrown in, so that you're still effective even when fighting defensively, andyou'll make up for the AC you dont get from the shield thats not there. question- can you fight defensively with one weapon, and normally with the other? it seems that artemis entreri does that a lot in the drizzt books, with his dagger on the defensive.
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 05:46 PM	As an aside, I posted this once on the 'Core' forums - I remember that bows gave you a +5 feet to range increment per "+" bonus, as well as the other combat bonuses normally applied. I don't remember if this was from an earlier edition, or from a third party source. The general consensus on the original thread seemed to indicate it was from a non-D&D source, since no-one else remembered it. However, one of my early D&D groups did use it, but perhaps it was already 'borrowed' at that time. I would highly recomend this, because it was a nice add, and it was looked upon favorably in that thread, and many seemed to agree to adopt it in their games. Bows tend to get overlooked in the usual D&D hack'n'slash style of combat, and anything you can do to get your players to use them makes the game more enjoyable. Just don't give them any silly "boxing-glove" arrows. :P
dragonheart 07-11-07, 10:42 PM	Well, an archer should get a good melee weapon, sure. However, I think that going with a single weapon and a buckler - which IIRC you can use without problem when shooting a bow, since you do not wield a weapon in that hand - might be more appropriate than TWF. Since it is a backup option, it is fair to assume that you use it only when things are really dire - and in such situations, higher AC may be a priority. the buckler does add (barely) to the AC but that plus one is a weak addition making you basically 5% harder to hit - not very much additional protection. In my example the addition of the hand axe causes the ranger to do almost 50% more damage than he would do with a single weapon and shield. this is really a better defense than the shield since it eliminates the threat in about 2/3 rds the time reducing the damage you take by about 30 % versus the 5% the shield does. to me bows are the secondary weapon - used until forced to fight but they do less damage than primary melee weapons and against major foes they seldom stop them without a critcal - something i personally never count on. A really deadly combo is a ranger-sorceror with the somatic weaponry feat which allows them to use their primary weapon to do the somatic components of their spells and is skilled (has feats in) both archery and TWF. Even crazier is the triple class of monk/ranger/sorceror with both the Ascetic hunter (ranger levels count as monk levels for bare hand damage) and Somatic Weaponry - major damage with the bare off hand and can cast spells as well as fight with bow or blade each round.