Counter attack offered by Trip and Disarm Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Counter attack offered by Trip and Disarm Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wenin
03-14-07, 06:18 PM I'm sure this has been covered, but the search feature is still broken, right? =(

Anyway, what is the thought behind allowing a free trip or disarm to the defender, after a failed attempt?
Wenin
03-14-07, 11:32 PM I'm asking, cause my DM is thinking of removing that part of the rules. I'm not very familiar with all the ins and outs of the combat system, but I tend to go with "They put it there for a reason".

So I'm concerned that this is an issue of balance.
Aldareth
03-15-07, 08:13 AM this is easy if you dont have the improved trip/disarm feats your attempts to trip/disarm are so clumsy that your oponnent has the chance to counter attack you.

example: try to counter a trip attack from a friend your chances are not bad
after this try to counter atrip from a Judo athlete , in most cases you will have no opportunity to counter
Wenin
03-15-07, 10:10 PM I would completely agree with that idea, if the improved feats disallowed the free counter attack.... but they only stop the AoO.
ShadezofDis
03-16-07, 09:44 AM I would completely agree with that idea, if the improved feats disallowed the free counter attack.... but they only stop the AoO.

Imp Disarm doesn't allow a counter disarm.

Imp Trip allows a counter trip if the original trip is not successful.

I haven't played around with these too much myself but there are ALWAYS counters for a DM no matter what the player is doing. (If anyone every tries the "spiked chain" method they'll be facing a lot of 4 legged creatures and a rust monster every other day ;D)

That said, if you have a big gap in power level between characters in the party you should take steps to remidy that.
Aldareth
03-19-07, 04:25 AM I would completely agree with that idea, if the improved feats disallowed the free counter attack.... but they only stop the AoO.
AoO in this cases ARE the free Counterattacks

dont have Imp. Trip --->Get a Counterattack/AoO
Have Imp. Trip ----> No Counterattack/AoO
ShadezofDis
03-19-07, 09:42 AM AoO in this cases ARE the free Counterattacks

dont have Imp. Trip --->Get a Counterattack/AoO
Have Imp. Trip ----> No Counterattack/AoO

There are differences.

Under Disarm;
When you attempt to disarm an opponent you incure an AoO. If you are not hit by the AoO (or for some reason it deals no damage) you continue to an opposed roll. If you are unsuccessful in the opposed roll (you being the person trying to disarm, rather than the person being disarmed) then your opponent gets an opportunity to disarm you, without provoking an AoO.

So in total a disarm could provoke a regular AoO and an automatic counter disarm should the original disarm fail.

With Imp Disarm you do not incure the original AoO and there is no opportunity to counter disarm.

Under Trip;
You ONLY provoke an AoO on a trip if you are unarmed, otherwise you do not provoke an AoO. If you fail when trying to trip an opponent they get an automatic counter trip (if you're tripping with a weapon you can just drop the weapon rather than suffer the counter trip).

Imp Trip removes the AoO when trying to trip unarmed. It does not avoid an opponents ability to counter trip though.

Note: This is just looking at PHB 3.5 and doesn't involve the errata, so it may not be 100% correct but based off the information of the PHB 3.5 this is how it is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wenin 03-14-07, 06:18 PM	I'm sure this has been covered, but the search feature is still broken, right? =( Anyway, what is the thought behind allowing a free trip or disarm to the defender, after a failed attempt?
Wenin 03-14-07, 11:32 PM	I'm asking, cause my DM is thinking of removing that part of the rules. I'm not very familiar with all the ins and outs of the combat system, but I tend to go with "They put it there for a reason". So I'm concerned that this is an issue of balance.
Aldareth 03-15-07, 08:13 AM	this is easy if you dont have the improved trip/disarm feats your attempts to trip/disarm are so clumsy that your oponnent has the chance to counter attack you. example: try to counter a trip attack from a friend your chances are not bad after this try to counter atrip from a Judo athlete , in most cases you will have no opportunity to counter
Wenin 03-15-07, 10:10 PM	I would completely agree with that idea, if the improved feats disallowed the free counter attack.... but they only stop the AoO.
ShadezofDis 03-16-07, 09:44 AM	I would completely agree with that idea, if the improved feats disallowed the free counter attack.... but they only stop the AoO. Imp Disarm doesn't allow a counter disarm. Imp Trip allows a counter trip if the original trip is not successful. I haven't played around with these too much myself but there are ALWAYS counters for a DM no matter what the player is doing. (If anyone every tries the "spiked chain" method they'll be facing a lot of 4 legged creatures and a rust monster every other day ;D) That said, if you have a big gap in power level between characters in the party you should take steps to remidy that.
Aldareth 03-19-07, 04:25 AM	I would completely agree with that idea, if the improved feats disallowed the free counter attack.... but they only stop the AoO. AoO in this cases ARE the free Counterattacks dont have Imp. Trip --->Get a Counterattack/AoO Have Imp. Trip ----> No Counterattack/AoO
ShadezofDis 03-19-07, 09:42 AM	AoO in this cases ARE the free Counterattacks dont have Imp. Trip --->Get a Counterattack/AoO Have Imp. Trip ----> No Counterattack/AoO There are differences. Under Disarm; When you attempt to disarm an opponent you incure an AoO. If you are not hit by the AoO (or for some reason it deals no damage) you continue to an opposed roll. If you are unsuccessful in the opposed roll (you being the person trying to disarm, rather than the person being disarmed) then your opponent gets an opportunity to disarm you, without provoking an AoO. So in total a disarm could provoke a regular AoO and an automatic counter disarm should the original disarm fail. With Imp Disarm you do not incure the original AoO and there is no opportunity to counter disarm. Under Trip; You ONLY provoke an AoO on a trip if you are unarmed, otherwise you do not provoke an AoO. If you fail when trying to trip an opponent they get an automatic counter trip (if you're tripping with a weapon you can just drop the weapon rather than suffer the counter trip). Imp Trip removes the AoO when trying to trip unarmed. It does not avoid an opponents ability to counter trip though. Note: This is just looking at PHB 3.5 and doesn't involve the errata, so it may not be 100% correct but based off the information of the PHB 3.5 this is how it is.