Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dark_Midget 06-02-07, 06:33 PM	Hi, I was wondering about guns in D&D. The flintlock and wheellock in specific. How many rounds does it take to reload a flintlock? And does anyone have stats for the wheellock pistol or know if it can hold more than one bullet? I was just curious about that, because if it limits me to one shot per round, I'd be kind of messed over. Also, I was wondering if anyone had any ideas for a class that would be good to use with guns for a pirate campaign. Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated. Thank you very much!
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 06-02-07, 06:38 PM	Dmg page 145 (I think) gnomes and the citazens of Lantan ar known for firearms. If you plan on using them ask your dm to alow modified versions of the Rapid reload feat and quick load crossbow property.
Dark_Midget 06-02-07, 06:39 PM	Modified in what way? What it applies to?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 06-02-07, 07:03 PM	Exactly, the feat and item property specify crossbows but realisticly similar tchinques would exist for firearms and it actaly means you can get a full attack if you combine the 2, I did some reserch for a backup charicter.
Gelcur 06-02-07, 08:04 PM	Arquebus, Blunderbus, Bombard, Caviler, Musket, Ribald and my favorite Starwheel are in the old tsr2106 Forgotten Realms Adventures. It also had info on how to introduce them into your campaign. It suggested that Arquebuses begin popping up 1-3 years after the Time of Troubles, at 10 times regular cost of 500 gp, and they would be rare finds. 3-5 years after they would be more commonly found in well stocked shops and only the double the price. And 5+ years they would available in large stores for regular prices. This is assuming if the DM wants them in his campaign.
Dark_Midget 06-02-07, 10:06 PM	Good point. Does anyone have any info on wheellock or starwheel? I was trying to find info on it earlier today and I couldn't tell if they could hold more than one bullet or not.
northernranger 06-04-07, 08:44 PM	I don't know anything about starwheels, but wheellocks are single shot pistols that were used around 1600. They were actually used not only on foot but also from horseback in cavalry charges. They fired almost fifty calibur balls and were really slow to reload. Most people that used these carried them on their saddles and carried four to six at a time. You might want to ask about duel weilding. They should probably have range segments of 20 or 30 feet.
The WarOverlord 06-08-07, 07:59 PM	Good point. Does anyone have any info on wheellock or starwheel? I was trying to find info on it earlier today and I couldn't tell if they could hold more than one bullet or not. Starwheels are "6 shooters" introduced by Spelljammers and Plane travelers that bring those weapons to Forgotten Realms (not to sell mind you, it WAS their personal weapon and was more likely then not looted off their body). Unless it is found with it's ammo or cassings to make the ammo the discoverer of such a weapon wouldn't have a clue what to do with it. Likewise it is likely the weapon was abondoned cause it "doesn't work" and trying to shoot it with the stock cartriges won't make it work because the gunpowder in the ammo, DOES NOT work in the Forgotten Realms on the forbidance of it doing so by Ogmha and Gond so the catriges need to be emptied of the usless in the Forgotten Realms "Gunpowder" and re-equipted with magical "smoke powder" before a Starwheel Pistol will work properly in the Realms Wheel lock is just another style of firing mechanism used on early guns.
dragonheart 06-09-07, 01:10 PM	As I've said in a few earlier postings on the subject of firearms:rolleyes: Earth's history provides a starting point for figuring what is and isn't available. While the DM's guide does include flicntlocks as well as wheellocks and matchlocks its a "generic" book good for many types of campaigns and worlds and times - not specific to the Realms. In Earth's history gunpwder is discovered/invented (in Europe) in 1250 AD and the first firearms are dated to about 1300 AD. These are all matchlock (think wicklock really). By 1350 the first wheellocks are appearing as high end weapons for the elite. There major superiority is that you don't have to be carrying around a lite fuse all the time - the use a friction-spark system to set off the powder (the same basic concept as a modern butane lighter - only bigger and fancier). These are the main two ignition sytems for the next 200 years (till about 1550) when the first percusion-spark systems are perfected. These have a number of problems still (going off half-cocked etc.) but they do work fairly well and start to be used - mostly as recreational pieces and not yet as military tools. Its another 100 years (@1650 AD) before the true "flintlock" is developed and it really is a major advancement and by 1700 it has completly replaced all earlier locks in mainstream areas. Given that Smokepowder is created by gond about 1350 DR we are just barely in the initial stages of firearms development. So in my campaign firearms are extremely limited and also limited to match and wheellock mechanisms. I hold to the idea that as a god of inventors and tinkerers Gond introduced firearms at their most primitive level so that his followers could "play" with the new device and see where they could take it, rather than handing it over fully fledged - if your going to do that why not simply give them modern assault rifles or laser pistols ? ANother problem is reloading time. WHile one shot per round does seem very slow by game rules remember that it is actually faster than real life. A trained musketeer was expected to get off 4 shots a minute or 1 shot every 15 seconds loading from the muzzle. in game terms that is 1 shot every 2.5 rounds so getting even 1/rd is a huge improvement. Magic enhanced weapons with things like the rapid reload ability meet the rules but are very unbalancing and should be incredibly rare. Further all of these weapons so far are smoothbore weapons with limited range. Even as late as 1850 smoothbore muskets were not expected to be accurate over distances of more than about 50 meters (and by accurate I really mean able to put 8 out of 10 balls into an 18 inch diameter target - not hitting a 2-4 inch bullseye. BY 1400 it had been discovered that rifling (spiraled grooves in the barrel - originally to help keep a barrel form fouling) considerably improved the accuracy but at the cost of slowing down the loading and firing. Rifled long arms generally had ranges in the 200-500 meter range while pistol ranges were 10 to 70 meters. However even experts normally only got off 3 shots/minute (1 shot every 3.5 rounds). THis very slowness was the major push to try to create both breach loading and multishot weapons. The first 2 really successful types were not invented until the late 1700's and the early 1800's so should not be allowed into a realms campaign in my opinion. The first reasonably effective breach loader was the Ferguson Rifle used briefly by one unit of the British in the American revolution. In expert hands it could get off 12 rounds a minute or a true 1shot/round - at least untill the barrel fouled and jammed the weapon. The first real multishot weapon was Colt's revolver of 1835 although a number of hand rotated multibarrel style pistols and rifles were tried back to the 1400's.
Lykor 06-09-07, 07:52 PM	Also be warned that some places (Waterdeep) outlaw smokepowder, with the penalty of Blackstaff getting massively ****** at you. I believe in one of the books he actually fireballs an entire warehouse full of the stuff.
AffableDoomwalker 06-10-07, 06:20 AM	The single-shot pistol the DMG shows has a reload time of one standard action. Not so bad, not so good really. I could see a small feat chain beginning here... Exotic Weapon Prof.: Firearms Rapid Reload: Firearms (req. Dex 15)
MarkusTay63 06-10-07, 02:12 PM	Also, there are some wonderful pics of the Realms' firearms on Todd Lockwood's site, that didn't make it into the CS when they dropped all the 3e gun info. You can see them HERE. (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/dnd/03/firearms.shtml)
AffableDoomwalker 06-10-07, 05:49 PM	So, any thoughts on stats for some of the firearms? I was thinking a blunderbuss would be like so: Blunderbuss Weapon Range: 15 ft. Cone (every 1/4 cover negates a d4) Weapon Damage: 4d4 piercing Reload Time: Standard action Of course, that's a rough interpretation, and I don't know a damn thing about how to load a blunderbuss, regardless...
Shiftkitty 06-11-07, 11:58 AM	D20 Modern has a historical supplement. I think it's called D20 Past or something like that. It has some of the older firearms in it. My players wanted firearms a long time ago, so I made them magic items. They are incredibly rare, very expensive, and new enough that you aren't going to stumble across an old one in a dungeon. We used a minimum STR score of 10 to be able to fire the thing with any degree of accuracy, must take a proficiency with it to use it, and the rounds do 2d6+6 (20*3). Because of the magical aura that already surrounds them the pistol itself cannot take enchantments, although the rounds can. Reloading is one standard action, although our wizard is working on a way to have the thing automatically reload itself through teleport spells. He hasn't quite hit on it yet, and doesn't want to get too daring lest he mess up the existing aura.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 01:08 PM	If you want a set of weapons that are both historic and fantastical, then I reccomend AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures, which has many nice choices and they are not so advanced as to unbalance an FR campaign. My particular favorite is the Grappling Gun. :D The book also includes a sidebar on reload times, since the DMG states that it takes one round (6 seconds) to reload a firearm, and in reality it took 45-60 seconds to do so. If you want your game to be realistic then think of how they use firarms in the pirate movies - they get off one shot and then switch to melee weapons. Pirates, BTW, were the only ships to sail around with their canon pre-loaded. ;)
Purple Dragon Knight 06-16-07, 12:57 AM	Here's a feat I devised a while back... Gnome Gunner [Regional] Prerequisites: Gnome (Lantan, Thesk, The Western Heartlands). Benefits: You are proficient with all weapons powered by smokepowder or designated as firearms. All firearms are listed in the DMG under "Exotic Weapons (Firearms)". A weapon is considered powered by smokepowder if its description lists a smokepowder or gunpowder requirement. In addition, thanks to both the intimate level of worksmanship and skill that the Forgotten Folk have devoted towards the development of the firearm, you have a natural knack at loading these devices in an optimal fashion and drawing the full potential of a charge of smokepowder: when using a firearm, you gain a +1 racial bonus to damage and only require a move action to reload the weapon. This application of the feat only applies to the use of firearms, and not to other weapons covered by this feat (i.e. such as large siege engines powered by smokepowder). Normal: Without this feat, you must select the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, as per p.144 of the DMG, to eliminate the nonprofiency penalty you take when wielding any firearm. Also, a firearm normally requires a standard action to reload. Special: You may select this feat only at a 1st level character. You may have only one Regional feat. A fighter may select Gnome Gunner as his 1st level fighter bonus feat.
GAMBLE_d13 06-24-07, 09:05 AM	The stats given in the DMG are adequate enough, and although it is true that guns were much slwoer to load, the same was true for Longbows and for X-Bows, so the balance is there even if the historical accuracy is not. My biggest beef with the DMG is the Cost of Firearms, and the Exotic Weapon Feat. Halve the Price and make them Simple weapons... why? Because cost and ease of use were the ONLY reasons firearms ever replaced the far superior Longbow.
MarkusTay63 06-25-07, 02:52 AM	I can hit a target nearly everytime with a bow, but I can't hit a friggin' thing with a gun. Personally, I find the bow MUCH easier to use. And quieter. :devil:
dragonheart 07-02-07, 09:44 AM	The stats given in the DMG are adequate enough, and although it is true that guns were much slwoer to load, the same was true for Longbows and for X-Bows, so the balance is there even if the historical accuracy is not. actually long bows are quite fast to reload. A couple of years ago I watched a ex-SAS demonstrate the longbow and saw him get off 15 arrows in one minute - all of which hit a chest sized target at 100 meters. that is actually one shot every 4 seconds. light crossbows are slower but could get off about 1 shot every 15-20 seconds so 3-4 shots a minute. heavy crossbows are much slower - 1shot every minute or 2 depending on strength and time needed to wind the bowstring back etc. In the hands of a semitrained soldier a musket was expected to keep up a rate of fire of 4 shots/minute so about the same as a crossbow (but with less accuracy - muskets should have a -2 to their accuracy.) rifled weapons are a bit slower to reload so they generally got off 3 shots/minutes but they had the accuracy or more of any other weapon. the other problem gumpowder/smokepowder should be creating is the smoke itself - this was a major factor - in my campaign it adds a -2 stacking to accuracy and a +1/8 to cover for every shot fired. perhaps the best demonstration of the accuracy problem was a report by the NYC police in 1990 - they cops had been trained to "point and shoot" (basically an unaimed quickdraw) - they found that the typical police gunfight occuered at a range of 2-5 feet, had 12 shots fired and only 3-4 hit and the % of "one shot stops" was less than 30%. after retraining to do true aimed fire the range didn't change but the number of shots fired generally dropped to about 7-8 and the rate of "one shot stops" went up to about 70%. second - bullet damage should not really be piercing - it should be bludgeoning. when a soft lead ball (or most modern bullets) strikes flesh/armour it does penetrate yes but it also mushrooms to about 3 times its initial size and sends schok waves (bludgeoning waves) out infront in a path about 3 times wider than the mushroomed bullet. so a .50 caliber ball becomes a 1.5 inch projectile plowing through the body with a blasteffect 4.5 inches wide in front of it - no wonder these things take folks down quickly.