improved grab+pounce+rake [Archive] - Wizards Community

improved grab+pounce+rake [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Baash
05-18-07, 05:37 AM Another wildshape/animal related question:

The Smilodon (from frostburn) has the special attacks improved grab, pounce and rake allowing him to make a full attack on charge, grapple checks with each succesful hit and rake while grappling. So what happens when a Smilodon charges a foe, hits him with his bite attack and succeeds in the grapple check? First of all can he still use his claw (not rake) attacks left from the full attack even though he is now grappling, and second does he get an additional rake attack, for a total of three, from the succesful grapple check?

What about if he hits with the bite attack and succeeds in the grapple check and then hits with a claw attack? Does he get a grapple check, and if so, with what kind of consequences? Does he try to pin the opponent now?

Finally, do succesful rake attacks allow grapple checks as they are described to be claw attacks?
Suin Bahhar
05-18-07, 07:39 AM First round proces the pounce attacks, i.e. the 2 claws and the bite. Next round when the grapple is established you can use the rake attacks witout using opposed grapplechecks to damage the foe. I have the feeling I could be wrong on this somewhere...
Purple Dragon Knight
05-19-07, 09:24 PM Here's how this works:

1. Charge.
2. Full Attack.
3. If one of the attack hits, free opposed grapple.

If defender wins opposed grapple.
4. Smilodon continues attacking normally for the rest of his attacks.

If defender loses opposed grapple.
4. Smilodon can either attack defender at -4 with the rest of this attacks OR make grapple checks against defender in lieu of attack rolls for each BAB attack he has (using the damage of the limb/appendage used to establish the grapple) OR attack other creatures around him (NOTE: if he attacks anyone other than the defender, the smilodon has -20 to his next opposed grapple against the defender, which means he is distracted and the defender could squeaze out of its graps more easily).
Baash
05-21-07, 06:58 AM Ok, So what if the smilodon decides to attack with the rest of his attacks with the -4 penalty, hits and wins the grapple check?

I'm also a little confused with the description of improved grab. it says:"...If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake." Does this mean that it can immediately use the two rake attacks after winning the grapple check? If so, does he get to rake also after pinning the opponent?
Purple Dragon Knight
05-21-07, 11:50 AM From the SRD/DMG:

Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Purple Dragon Knight
05-21-07, 12:26 PM Ok, So what if the smilodon decides to attack with the rest of his attacks with the -4 penalty, hits and wins the grapple check?He's already in a grapple, which is why he's taking -4 to all attacks, so you don't need to roll opposed grapples at that point. Improved Grab lets you establish a grapple hold as a free action.

Once you're grappling, you can:

1. Make attack rolls at -4 (useful if you normally have lots of attacks, like a lion - bite, claw, claw; or a ranger with two short swords - you can only attack with natural or light weapons during a grapple, so two short swords work, but not longsword-shortsword combo; you can't use longswords in a grapple as it's a one-handed weapon). The smilodon gets two rake attacks against the defending grappler on top of his regular attacks; rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple; the smilodon must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

2. Make grapple checks against defender in lieu of attack rolls for each BAB attack he has (using the damage of the limb/appendage used to establish the grapple; useful if enemy has high AC but low grapple check); note that the smilodon can still make his two rake attacks here, using the listed attack bonus, without the minus 4, because these are **extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe**

3. Attack other creatures around smilodon (NOTE: if he attacks anyone other than the defender, the smilodon has -20 to his next opposed grapple against the defender, which means he is distracted and the defender could squeaze out of its graps more easily). Note that as long as the defender hasn't squeezed out of the smilodon's grasp, the smilodon can still make his two rake attacks here, using the listed attack bonus, without the minus 4, because these are **extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe**.

Sample scenario:
ROUND 1
1. Pounce: smilodon charges, bite, claw, claw, rake, rake (if bite is successful, go to 2; otherwise wait until next round and repeat 1).
2. Bite successful = free opposed grapple vs. defender; defender loses goto 3.
3. Defender loses opposed grapple = he is pulled in one of the smilodon's squares (that's it for this round; on the defender's turn, he can try opposed grapples to escape, draw a light weapon, etc. - See PHB grapple rules for options; lets assume the defender fails to escape grapple for a minute - See below).
ROUND 2
1. Smilodon has the defender in its mouth, so he can't attack other adjacent creatures with its bite attack, so he attacks the defender's friend with two claw attacks, attacks the defender with the bite attack at -4 and the two rake attacks at the listed attack bonus (i.e. no -4 on these).
ROUND 3
1. Smilodon sees that the defender's friend backs off after being clawed twice. Smilodon does not want to move and follow, which would result in wasted grapple checks to move the defender with him. So he stays right there, drops to a crouch, and begin to fully chew upon the defender! [game terms: I don't know the BAB of the smilodon, but lets assume it's the same as the Dire Tiger (+12), which means three iterative attacks (normally +12/+7/+2, before strength adjustments); this means the smilodon gets three grapple checks against the defender, ALL using the FULL grapple check number (you do not reduce each one by 5 successively, like attack rolls), which means each successful smilodon grapple check of +24 (again assuming it's same as Dire Tiger) results in 2d6+4 bite damage on the poor defender (which probably has less than a +24 grapple check, unless at high levels or with Improved Grapple). To add insult to these grievous injuries, the smilodon gets to make two rake attacks at +18 against the defender's AC, each at 2d4+4 damage! (assuming, again, dire tiger numbers). If the defender still moves a this point, I'd say the smilodon gets the hell out of there, especially if it's being poked at by the defender's allies or the defender him/her/itself! :D ]
Baash
05-21-07, 12:43 PM Now it all makes sense! (I think:) ) Thank you for your help.
Purple Dragon Knight
05-21-07, 08:00 PM T'was my pleasure. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any other questions. :)
Crust
05-25-07, 02:46 PM Try this combo:

First Round:
1. Pounce
2. Full attack (claw/claw/bite) and rake (claw/claw)
3. If bite attack hits, grapple

Second Round:
1. If grapple check succeeds, pin

Third Round:
1. Release prey as a free action
2. Full attack (claw/claw/bite)
3. If bite attack hits, grapple

Fourth Round:
1. If grapple check succeeds, pin

Repeat... ;)

The druid in my party uses this technique often while in polar bear form.

Of course, you could just continue grappling for the rake damage, but the claw/claw/bite is, obviouly, more damage than the rake.
Purple Dragon Knight
05-26-07, 05:30 PM Second Round:
1. If grapple check succeeds, pin

Wasteful! this should be:
pin/grapple(biteDMG)/grapple(biteDMG)

Remember the Dire Tiger gets three iterative attacks, and therefore, 3 grapple checks per round, each resulting in bite damage! :D
Crust
05-26-07, 08:38 PM Wasteful! this should be:
pin/grapple(biteDMG)/grapple(biteDMG)

Remember the Dire Tiger gets three iterative attacks, and therefore, 3 grapple checks per round, each resulting in bite damage! :D

This I don't understand. The dire tiger gets one bite attack each round, and thus, one grapple check.

The pin is necessary so that the grappler can release the victim as a free action and immediately start the claw/claw/bite (grapple) process over again, essentially mauling the opponent to death...

Or just do the grapple/rake damage every round.
Purple Dragon Knight
05-29-07, 12:34 AM Crust, are you trolling again? :D

You *know* I'll do it! don't you dare me to slap one of my SRD quotes again, don't you.. ah, what the heck, here it goes! :D :D :D

"If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.
Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.Draw a Light Weapon: You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check.
Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).
Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.
Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.
Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check.
Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).
Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned.
Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a –4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action).
You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action.

If You’re Pinning an Opponent
You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.
You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt (see Disarm).
You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa).
You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Baash 05-18-07, 05:37 AM	Another wildshape/animal related question: The Smilodon (from frostburn) has the special attacks improved grab, pounce and rake allowing him to make a full attack on charge, grapple checks with each succesful hit and rake while grappling. So what happens when a Smilodon charges a foe, hits him with his bite attack and succeeds in the grapple check? First of all can he still use his claw (not rake) attacks left from the full attack even though he is now grappling, and second does he get an additional rake attack, for a total of three, from the succesful grapple check? What about if he hits with the bite attack and succeeds in the grapple check and then hits with a claw attack? Does he get a grapple check, and if so, with what kind of consequences? Does he try to pin the opponent now? Finally, do succesful rake attacks allow grapple checks as they are described to be claw attacks?
Suin Bahhar 05-18-07, 07:39 AM	First round proces the pounce attacks, i.e. the 2 claws and the bite. Next round when the grapple is established you can use the rake attacks witout using opposed grapplechecks to damage the foe. I have the feeling I could be wrong on this somewhere...
Purple Dragon Knight 05-19-07, 09:24 PM	Here's how this works: 1. Charge. 2. Full Attack. 3. If one of the attack hits, free opposed grapple. If defender wins opposed grapple. 4. Smilodon continues attacking normally for the rest of his attacks. If defender loses opposed grapple. 4. Smilodon can either attack defender at -4 with the rest of this attacks OR make grapple checks against defender in lieu of attack rolls for each BAB attack he has (using the damage of the limb/appendage used to establish the grapple) OR attack other creatures around him (NOTE: if he attacks anyone other than the defender, the smilodon has -20 to his next opposed grapple against the defender, which means he is distracted and the defender could squeaze out of its graps more easily).
Baash 05-21-07, 06:58 AM	Ok, So what if the smilodon decides to attack with the rest of his attacks with the -4 penalty, hits and wins the grapple check? I'm also a little confused with the description of improved grab. it says:"...If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake." Does this mean that it can immediately use the two rake attacks after winning the grapple check? If so, does he get to rake also after pinning the opponent?
Purple Dragon Knight 05-21-07, 11:50 AM	From the SRD/DMG: Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-21-07, 12:26 PM	Ok, So what if the smilodon decides to attack with the rest of his attacks with the -4 penalty, hits and wins the grapple check?He's already in a grapple, which is why he's taking -4 to all attacks, so you don't need to roll opposed grapples at that point. Improved Grab lets you establish a grapple hold as a free action. Once you're grappling, you can: 1. Make attack rolls at -4 (useful if you normally have lots of attacks, like a lion - bite, claw, claw; or a ranger with two short swords - you can only attack with natural or light weapons during a grapple, so two short swords work, but not longsword-shortsword combo; you can't use longswords in a grapple as it's a one-handed weapon). The smilodon gets two rake attacks against the defending grappler on top of his regular attacks; rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple; the smilodon must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn. 2. Make grapple checks against defender in lieu of attack rolls for each BAB attack he has (using the damage of the limb/appendage used to establish the grapple; useful if enemy has high AC but low grapple check); note that the smilodon can still make his two rake attacks here, using the listed attack bonus, without the minus 4, because these are extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe 3. Attack other creatures around smilodon (NOTE: if he attacks anyone other than the defender, the smilodon has -20 to his next opposed grapple against the defender, which means he is distracted and the defender could squeaze out of its graps more easily). Note that as long as the defender hasn't squeezed out of the smilodon's grasp, the smilodon can still make his two rake attacks here, using the listed attack bonus, without the minus 4, because these are extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Sample scenario: ROUND 1 1. Pounce: smilodon charges, bite, claw, claw, rake, rake (if bite is successful, go to 2; otherwise wait until next round and repeat 1). 2. Bite successful = free opposed grapple vs. defender; defender loses goto 3. 3. Defender loses opposed grapple = he is pulled in one of the smilodon's squares (that's it for this round; on the defender's turn, he can try opposed grapples to escape, draw a light weapon, etc. - See PHB grapple rules for options; lets assume the defender fails to escape grapple for a minute - See below). ROUND 2 1. Smilodon has the defender in its mouth, so he can't attack other adjacent creatures with its bite attack, so he attacks the defender's friend with two claw attacks, attacks the defender with the bite attack at -4 and the two rake attacks at the listed attack bonus (i.e. no -4 on these). ROUND 3 1. Smilodon sees that the defender's friend backs off after being clawed twice. Smilodon does not want to move and follow, which would result in wasted grapple checks to move the defender with him. So he stays right there, drops to a crouch, and begin to fully chew upon the defender! [game terms: I don't know the BAB of the smilodon, but lets assume it's the same as the Dire Tiger (+12), which means three iterative attacks (normally +12/+7/+2, before strength adjustments); this means the smilodon gets three grapple checks against the defender, ALL using the FULL grapple check number (you do not reduce each one by 5 successively, like attack rolls), which means each successful smilodon grapple check of +24 (again assuming it's same as Dire Tiger) results in 2d6+4 bite damage on the poor defender (which probably has less than a +24 grapple check, unless at high levels or with Improved Grapple). To add insult to these grievous injuries, the smilodon gets to make two rake attacks at +18 against the defender's AC, each at 2d4+4 damage! (assuming, again, dire tiger numbers). If the defender still moves a this point, I'd say the smilodon gets the hell out of there, especially if it's being poked at by the defender's allies or the defender him/her/itself! :D ]
Baash 05-21-07, 12:43 PM	Now it all makes sense! (I think:) ) Thank you for your help.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-21-07, 08:00 PM	T'was my pleasure. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any other questions. :)
Crust 05-25-07, 02:46 PM	Try this combo: First Round: 1. Pounce 2. Full attack (claw/claw/bite) and rake (claw/claw) 3. If bite attack hits, grapple Second Round: 1. If grapple check succeeds, pin Third Round: 1. Release prey as a free action 2. Full attack (claw/claw/bite) 3. If bite attack hits, grapple Fourth Round: 1. If grapple check succeeds, pin Repeat... ;) The druid in my party uses this technique often while in polar bear form. Of course, you could just continue grappling for the rake damage, but the claw/claw/bite is, obviouly, more damage than the rake.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-26-07, 05:30 PM	Second Round: 1. If grapple check succeeds, pin Wasteful! this should be: pin/grapple(biteDMG)/grapple(biteDMG) Remember the Dire Tiger gets three iterative attacks, and therefore, 3 grapple checks per round, each resulting in bite damage! :D
Crust 05-26-07, 08:38 PM	Wasteful! this should be: pin/grapple(biteDMG)/grapple(biteDMG) Remember the Dire Tiger gets three iterative attacks, and therefore, 3 grapple checks per round, each resulting in bite damage! :D This I don't understand. The dire tiger gets one bite attack each round, and thus, one grapple check. The pin is necessary so that the grappler can release the victim as a free action and immediately start the claw/claw/bite (grapple) process over again, essentially mauling the opponent to death... Or just do the grapple/rake damage every round.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-29-07, 12:34 AM	Crust, are you trolling again? :D You know I'll do it! don't you dare me to slap one of my SRD quotes again, don't you.. ah, what the heck, here it goes! :D :D :D "If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item. Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.Draw a Light Weapon: You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check. Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s). Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check. Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below). Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned. Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a –4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action). You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action. If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt (see Disarm). You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa). You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent."