Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LarvandrelSildaris 01-29-07, 02:18 PM	Hi there, I wish to add more realism to my D&D campain. I've always considered the "hit point" stuff idiot since a 20th level barbarian have to be cut 400 times by a dagger before falling down. I know, some would say that your hit points represent your "ability to reduce a killing blow into a scratch" before taking the one that will kill you... Still, I am not satisfied :) I have the Unearthed Arcana book and I have read the variant rules about dodge bonus to AC depending of the class, then armor that gives Damage reduction instead of a huge AC bonus. I finally read the Wound/Vitality points system and I thought it would be nice to take all these variants at the same time. Is anyone testing all three at the same time? For the moment, I have not take any, because I am not sure if I really wants every rogue in my campain to INSTANTLY kill on a crit (come one, who can survive a little 3d6 extra sneak damage with 12 Wound points?!) I would like to have feedback from players who tested it and also some "house rules" suggestions for those who dare try their personal more realistic rules! :) Thanks!
Deekin 01-29-07, 03:46 PM	That's exactly the same methoud the Revised Star Wars Books used, and that seemed to work fine, except for the fact that in star wars, you will die before you hit 20th level, but that is because Star wars weapons deal more damage.
Khaelieth 01-29-07, 04:27 PM	At random give them grievous wounds, like break their leg, arm or other suitable limb. Barbarians... Say he dropped his greataxe on his foot and therefore looses 30 feet to his speed, can't run and takes a minus 6 penalty to dex until he manages to bandages it and gets it healed!
LarvandrelSildaris 01-29-07, 04:34 PM	Yes indeed. Perhaps I should just stick to the official rules and add more realistic stuff depending on what happened on the battlefield... like broken legs, etc... No need to stick to the rules. I could just make critical damage more than just double or triple damage. Is there a crit table available somewhere with effects?
Myssa Rei 01-29-07, 07:07 PM	In the campaigns we play in, we use a variant of the Wound Point system, and it makes some combat encounters quicker, though given the fact that PCs are bound to do more criticals than their enemies, expect to see a LOT of sudden takedowns (which can be a little anticlimactic at times, especially if the main villain in the campaign suddenly goes down in one hit). As such so-called were ruled criticals only do the weapon's base damage, however if the damage goes more than half the character's wound points, they receive a 'condition', usually crippled or bleeding, that reduces their effectivity.
Tyshanis 01-29-07, 10:44 PM	I found a critical hit table somewhere on the net and made some tweaks and is is awsome. While some do regular crit some do +1 crit others do normal with a body effect. Imagine an elf druid gwtting her arms chopped off at the elbow mid way through an adventure.:D I also made my dragons immune to "the chart." I'll see if I can find it and post a link here.
Tyshanis 01-29-07, 10:53 PM	Found it. The one I use is here http://www.dndadventure.com/dnda_optional_rules.html For the critical hit Everything 70+ Deals regular damage + effect For critical fumble all fumble incur an attack of oportunity in melee. It works wonders and brings color and strife to your games.
Dark Wizard 01-30-07, 12:38 AM	Properly optimized characters, particularly high level characters, typically end battles in just a few short rounds. That works out to just a few hits and spells. Also, the optional rules in the DMG, like save or die versus massive damage do a lot to make combat deadlier (and more "realistic").
LarvandrelSildaris 01-30-07, 10:56 AM	Thank you Tyshanis for your link. Sure we'll play with it! Have you also try the "speed" variant for initiative? It seems GREAT! Hi Dark Wizard! Yes, i know high level character usually kill monsters in one or two rounds. This may seems realistic but the damned "barbarian 30 str ultra two-handed power attack 2d8+128756 of damage I always kill you in one attack but just send me a hold person and my +1 Will save shall prove my doom"... It's a game of heroes, isn't it? So where are the famous long duel between Artemis and Drizzt? Everytime two high-level character battled each other, you are sure it will be a 2 round combat. That sounds boring to me... I wanna add a realistic twist, but two veterans combattant are supposed to battle for long before breaking the defense of their ennemy.
MarkusTay63 01-31-07, 01:24 AM	I use both the Defense Bonus and damage reduction from UA, and they work fine. I also use my own variant of 'wounding', I adapted a fatigue point system from another game to replace HP, and your Con= your REAL Stamina (vitality), with adds for physique and such. I've been using it for years, before the system came out in UA. Much more realistic because a 20th level fighter will be exausted and unable to fight instead of killing all 200 level 1 Kobolds. Also, Wizards tire from casting spells, just like in novels. A little more math for me, but much more real. I used to use a hit point location table from the OLD game Runequest, which is fun, but complex at times. Then my brother-in-law turned me on to the Critical Hit tables in Rolemaster's Arms law (http://www.usingenglish.com/amazon/us/reviews/1558062149.html). Its like 3-5 pages of tables giving different crits depending on the weapon used vs Armor type. they're are amazing and I highly reccomend them to anyone who can get their hands on them. There are some really 'fun' results like "Chop off leg, hop around for three rounds screaming before you die from blood-loss". Thats a pretty extreme example, but most of them are funny like that.
Ltlconf 01-31-07, 01:57 AM	Hello Folks, We've used the OGL Conan combat system since it came a couple years back and its proved deadly, fast, flexiable and yet survivable. Yeah it sounds contradictory, but thats because it moves combat beyond "pick feat, read sheet, roll, check results" style of play. Now you have combat moves, dodges, parries, shields that can be used offensively AND defensively in the same move ect and THEY AREN'T OPTIONAL RULES. Plus much of what else was mentioned in the DR ratings for armor, defense bonuses and massive damage causing a black out or even instant death (unless a Saving Throw is made. This means if the players (and DM) are creative a fight can be epic and then end suddenly as one combatent gets in the solid blow, like real life, and takes him down. Oh yeah, you do take HP loss from blood loss, so the victorious hero had best staunch those wounds! A plus is that the armor and weapon stata are much more realistic and use a system that allows a player to mix and match armor to suit the situation and style of character (with advantage and disadvantages to each) while weapons are nasty in damage (even a dagger is something to worry about) and are more than one trick ponies (you do know you can do more than stab with a spear and use the pommel of a sword to club someone?). Weapons and armor are very realistic overall and tough. Now, this is aided by a less uber start-up HP: not bad but HP climb stops at 10th level. On the other hand you get stat increases. So, while your HP stops at 10th level you still climb in ability to 15th. Tough you'll be (or smart, you pick) but still vulnerable to enough well trained 2nd level soldiers who want to take you done. Unless YOU play it smart. Thats the best thing, this system promotes smart, well thought out combat as one bad role (or good enemy role) can take you down HARD, so combat had better be worth it! It'd take ten pages to go into it all so pick it up in softcover (around $20 and has al the rules) or just borrow someones copy.
MarkusTay63 01-31-07, 01:36 PM	Hello Folks, We've used the OGL Conan combat system since it came a couple years back and its proved deadly, fast, flexiable and yet survivable. Yeah it sounds contradictory, but thats because it moves combat beyond "pick feat, read sheet, roll, check results" style of play. Now you have combat moves, dodges, parries, shields that can be used offensively AND defensively in the same move ect and THEY AREN'T OPTIONAL RULES. Plus much of what else was mentioned in the DR ratings for armor, defense bonuses and massive damage causing a black out or even instant death... It'd take ten pages to go into it all so pick it up in softcover (around $20 and has al the rules) or just borrow someones copy.Damn! Something else I need to buy now. that sounds very interesting.
Melblen_Cairn 01-31-07, 01:49 PM	One of my players found a 2e critical hit system of tables online. It was rather vague in decribing all the effects it had on it which was fine so we set about converting it to 3.5. It covers everything from ruining armor on hit locations; up to breaking, shattering, or servering limbs; bleeding wounds that have different levels of severity. Our party cleric loves it cuase he now has tons of work to do. We assigned different levels of healing required to heal certain types of wounds and injuries sustained from a critical. For example healing the damage and stopping the bleeding but leaving the injury for later still leaves the victim with the penalties, or using a heal thats not powerful enough wont help much. Plus Heal skill checks play a bigger roll. We set DCs for about every wound and injury. These come in handy when the heal spells start running low. We also gave rogues a different creation option. At creation they can o the standard mass damage route, or they can elect to go down the sneak attack critical path. They progress at the same speed as sneak attack damage but instead of getting d6 damage they increase the threat range by +1 or gain a +1 on rolling severity when a crits effect is rolled. These increases alternate. Makes a high HP fighter type definately think twice before they let a rogue in behind them even when that rogue lower then them. This option is cool for the stealth type groups. Our group has been loving the faster paced deadlier combats. At their levels (average of 16 currently) they feel the element of danger they did when they were 1 or 2. If your interested int he details of our system send me a PM.
Ltlconf 02-01-07, 09:49 AM	Hello Folks, Another element you can add to make combat nastier is a story/world element. Namely, make magical healing expensive and hard to find. It's easy in our campaign, we're using a OGL magical system that makes healing beyond a laying on of hands (a couple d6 at best, no regeneration of limbs or curing disease) means no more "I have 60HP and a cleric backing me up, so CHAAAARGE!" right into fifty orcs solo. Nope, no way. Time to use the old noodle instead of the bicep. Now if your group has a Cleric, all well and good, just make him play his character's religious convictions to the letter and penalize him HARD when he doesn't. After all, gods expect their servants to be of a higher calibre! Means his healings will likely always have a catch. After all, he's a servent of the divine, not a feakin free medical service or HMO! Then since the temples also have a monopoly on healing, let them exercise it like a club: "You want healing good sirs? Well, I see that you are indeed in dire straights, however the Gods do not dipense their favours lightly. You seem to of little means, but no matter, the gods need more than money, they need also a service..." And since the players are bleeding out they are in no position to argue. Ah, blood loss and septic infections are a wonderful thing:devil: . No temple will pass up a chance to promote their god and advance his/her agenda. Even in pre-Christian times priest played serious politics, follow the grand tradition (the Popes were only the latest in a long line) and use history as inspiration. I find the HBO series Rome and the History Channel relatively painless. Go for it!
Tyshanis 02-01-07, 10:52 AM	Another thing i do is Optimize the sundering rules into combat, If plate has for example 60 hp then after 60 hp time for new armor. Also i give DR based on armor class an AC8 peice of armor has DR8/- it makes armor realistic. Shields are the same. Where Can I find that conan combat system?
LarvandrelSildaris 02-01-07, 05:03 PM	Tyshanis, are you saying that in your game, an armor with a +8 AC bonus gives the AC bonus AND the damage reduction?
Dark Wizard 02-01-07, 09:56 PM	I wish to add more realism to my D&D campain. I've always considered the "hit point" stuff idiot since a 20th level barbarian have to be cut 400 times by a dagger before falling down. Yes, i know high level character usually kill monsters in one or two rounds. This may seems realistic but the damned "barbarian 30 str ultra two-handed power attack 2d8+128756 of damage I always kill you in one attack but just send me a hold person and my +1 Will save shall prove my doom"... It's a game of heroes, isn't it? So where are the famous long duel between Artemis and Drizzt? Everytime two high-level character battled each other, you are sure it will be a 2 round combat. That sounds boring to me... I wanna add a realistic twist, but two veterans combattant are supposed to battle for long before breaking the defense of their ennemy. Thought it's a minor quip, these two statements are at odds with one another. I'm guessing a more specific form of your question is how to make martial combat more interesting?
Tyshanis 02-02-07, 08:09 AM	Tyshanis, are you saying that in your game, an armor with a +8 AC bonus gives the AC bonus AND the damage reduction? exactly, it also has hit points kinda like stone skin
LarvandrelSildaris 02-02-07, 09:57 AM	Thought it's a minor quip, these two statements are at odds with one another. I'm guessing a more specific form of your question is how to make martial combat more interesting? No Dark Wizard, these two statements are not at offs with one another. In the first, I wanted to explain that, in D&D, every hit DAMAGES a character, so a 300 HP barbarian must be stinged 200 times by a d4 dagger before falling, meaning he can received 100 sword stab and continue fighting, or eat a dragon tail in the back and die immediately... In my second question, I just wanted to point out that, normally, heroes don't die in one round. They parry and feint for minute before finally giving the killing blow, so in my point of view, only the "killing strike" actually really touch flesh and bone. Sure you can handle a cut to the arms or legs, and one more in your flank, but not 30 without bleeding to death in a matter of seconds. That is why I appreciated the "wound-vitality" system, even if it doesn't still fit all my needs. Because YES, you're right, my goal is to make combats more interesting and, if possible, more realistic... Thank you for your posts!
LarvandrelSildaris 02-02-07, 09:58 AM	exactly, it also has hit points kinda like stone skin mmm, interesting... makes sunder a FAMOUS feat to take I'm sure...
Tyshanis 02-02-07, 10:09 AM	mmm, interesting... makes sunder a FAMOUS feat to take I'm sure... I'm sure but my players haven't figured that out yet:evillaugh Remember that 1round = 6 seconds of real time, if you want more realistic combat discribe it better. I am thinking of geting rid of my armor rules cause i have enough to track and for some groups its good but for this current one not so much. The dmg has some examples, I also printed out a chart that I created discribing hits with certain weapons based on the roll, and also misses, which helps in the story telling, And taped it to my screen. Be creative is the best advice i can give.
Dark Wizard 02-02-07, 10:41 AM	That is why I appreciated the "wound-vitality" system, even if it doesn't still fit all my needs. Because YES, you're right, my goal is to make combats more interesting and, if possible, more realistic... Thank you for your posts! Yeah, describing the typical HP system as a character taking each and every blow is unrealistic. Though, combat usually doesn't last too long. While drawn out fights are cinematic, they're exactly that, stuff that movies indoctrinate us into thinking. I get where you're coming from, standard D&D doesn't seem ideal for cinematic combat (fantasy should usually be cinematic after all). I like the optional rules in the DMG and UA for that reason. Perhaps they will make it standard in the next edition.
Valgard 02-02-07, 02:11 PM	In my D&D games I use these systems (from Unearthed Arcana, but with some changes): vitality and wound points, defense bonus by class, armor as damage reduction, the weapon group feats (but only for feats other than weapon proficiency), and spontaneous domain spells for clerics. With these I make my games more realistic: It's not necessary to buy the best armor you can afford, you are not always looking for healing potions all the time but you can die with a single shot. Also, I make clerics not as healing machines but nearer to their deities dogma.
LarvandrelSildaris 02-02-07, 03:04 PM	Hi there! Is anyone knowing a place where we can find a Called Shot table with the penalties for each part of the body? (in the case we use the Armor damage reduction in UA) Example, since a fighter wearing a Breast Plate got damage reduction... it would be interesting to stab him with my nasty poisoned dagger in a leg or the neck... Also, for those who use the AC Defense bonus for Class, which option you find more balanced? A. Taking the better of the Armor bonus or the Defense bonus B. Stacking the Defense bonus for class with the Armor bonus provided by the armor. Thanx again to all!!! P.S.: And yes Valgard, I agree that giving spontaneous domain castin' is a far better option than letting all clerics in the world be healing machine distributors.
FineasBoggs 02-03-07, 12:05 PM	If you're looking for "realistic" I'd suggest a different system than d20. For me, it had never made sense that for a highly skilled martial specialist the only way for his ability to defend himself is to use heavier armor or more magic. You might try looking at the old Stormbringer rule system. Instead of more armor, more magic and more hit points to represent your skill, you used...well, skills. (IIRC) Also, the Black Company RPG has a more realistic and much more deadly concept of the d20 system.
Valgard 02-05-07, 09:04 AM	Also, for those who use the AC Defense bonus for Class, which option you find more balanced? A. Taking the better of the Armor bonus or the Defense bonus B. Stacking the Defense bonus for class with the Armor bonus provided by the armor.Here we (my players and I) had some time and ideas to find the right option. UA gives two options, to take the better bonus or to make you use the armor bonus (always lower than defense class bonus if you use the armor as damage reduction variant) if you want your DR. First we used the second one. From a first point of view was the logical option towards preserving game balance. Then we realized that it wasn't worth increasing your magical armor bonus to AC because you needed at least a +4 enhancement bonus, and even with that, you had a ridiculous AC (now we said it, Defense or Defense Rating), making armors not worth using them. Then we thought in letting the higher bonus (so, defense bonus) regardless of DR, to apply, but the problem of magical enhancement still stood. In games such a Star Wars d20 there's no problemo because there aren't magical enhancement bonuses, so I thought that you had to houserule in there. What we finally choosed was to use the magical armor bonus to count as both armor bonus and DR. You take DR and armor bonus like this: you add the magic enhancement bonus to the normal armor bonus (so, the armor bonus from the original rules) and then you apply the variant rule (half DR and half armor bonus), then, it's worth to pay an armor enhancement bonus. We finally get to let the higher bonus to apply. We used this rule in two large adventures (about 7 to 10 sessions, I don't remember exactly) and it seems to be good. Maybe you need to make the encounters a bit harder, augmenting in 1 the CR it's good, but not always. I didn't think in stack the armor bonus to defense armor but at first glance I think you'll had an inmense Defense, so I don't think that's a good idea.
MarkusTay63 02-06-07, 11:35 PM	Theres some great Crit tables on THIS SITE, (http://www.dndadventure.com/) two different ones in fact, plus lots of other great stuff. Just look in the section marked DMs / Tools. ;)
Skeep302 03-02-07, 02:04 AM	Realism in D&D is overrated, it's the reason for a fantasy game. Just like how a 1st LV. Fighter can get his head run over by a wagon and live. While a 1st LV. Commonor would die.:rolleyes:
nameneeded 03-04-07, 12:54 PM	Realism in D&D is overrated, it's the reason for a fantasy game. Just like how a 1st LV. Fighter can get his head run over by a wagon and live. While a 1st LV. Commonor would die.:rolleyes: Hero (PC) vc commoner is why. Your PC's will have better stats and hits than the averasge commoner. Remember, the average commoner has straight 10 stats and d6 hits. Figther d10+CON bonus. Now odds are good a mage would die if that make you feel better. :) The problem I always had with the combat system can be summed up in an example. Your a 5th lvl charcater. Fighter, mage it doesn't matter. 30' away is a 1st lvl mugger with a crossbow/ bow. He says, "Drop all your valubles or I'm shooting you in the head." What do you do? A) You obey. B) You laugh and proceed to kick his butt. So what if you get hit for d6 dmg. If you chose A your not playing d20 without some sort of optional rules. Lets face it. D20 IS set up for those big fights. Picture your guy standin after taking a hit that would have taken out a small town! And even if the fight is over in a few rounds how long does it take to play them out? When I want realism I play RoleMaster. Where in the example above you have to think because that 1 arrow can puncture a lung and leave you drowning in your own blood in the street. Wher all swings are not power attacks. You have to allocate some of you bonus to hit to defense or your gonna die quick. Where organ damage, tendon damage, severed limbs and blood loss kill and maim you. Where after a few rounds of combat your tired and bleeding and are inccuring minuses to your roles. Where a healing class is seldom chosen because that will be pretty much all you can do. As for the whole 1 10th lv fighter vs 100 orcs = fair fight.......read the new Mob rules! They worked great. My advice is to focus more on the descriptors of your battles. But if you really want to add some crits and such find a copy of Arms and Claw Law for Rolemaster. Any version. They all have rules to convert it to a d20 based dice system.
swhite58 03-12-07, 02:28 AM	The damage system used in Harnmaster may be of interest to you. You don't have hit points, you have wound levels (minor, serious, grevous), which penalise your ability to fight, cast etc. You die or lose consciousness when you fail an endurance roll, which gets easier to do as the injuries accumulate. Shane
Derren S. 03-17-07, 04:39 PM	Your a 5th lvl charcater. Fighter, mage it doesn't matter. 30' away is a 1st lvl mugger with a crossbow/ bow. He says, "Drop all your valubles or I'm shooting you in the head." What would a movie hero do when in such a situation? Probably the same as the character. Pull a stunt to evade the hit and flee/attack. I had good reasults with making HP= ability to evade damage. That includes luck and stamania used to evade a blow. Loosing HP doesn't have to mean that you get hit. Imo it can also mean that you evade the blow and just get a little more tired reducing the ability to evade the next blow. The only real hit a character takes is when he is dropped below 1 hp. As for the whole 1 10th lv fighter vs 100 orcs = fair fight.......read the new Mob rules! They worked great. Mob rules work "great" but those rules break the internal logic and consisty of the game and thus are, at least for me, rubbish.