Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GalaionEmpire 01-21-07, 08:16 AM	I have nothing set in stone but this is what I have for a campaign that I have been working on. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761248 Light guns can be used by any one that understands how they work. Medium guns can be used by any one with a +2 strength that understands how they work. Heavy guns can be used by any one with a +4 strength that understands how they work. Weapon Name Damage Critical Range Max Range Weight Projectile Special Pistol, light 1d6 X3 50’ 125’ 2 lbs 30 cal. Pistol, medium 1d8 X3 100’ 250’ 4 lbs 50 cal. Pistol, heavy 1d10 X3 150’ 375 6 lbs 70 cal. Rifle, light 2d6 19-20 X3 100’ 250’ 8 lbs 30 cal. Rifle, medium 2d8 19-20 X3 200’ 500’ 11 lbs 50 cal. Rifle, heavy 2d10 19-20 X3 300’ 750’ 14 lbs 70 cal. Volley gun, light 1d6/12d6 18-20 X3 75’ 180’ 10 lbs 30 cal. See text Volley gun, medium 1d8/10d8 18-20 X3 150’ 375’ 15 lbs 50 cal. See text Volley gun, heavy 1d10/8d10 18-20 X3 200’ 500’ 20 lbs 70 cal. See text Flame Gun 4d6 X3 30’ 30’ 3 lbs 1” 30’ cone 10’ rides Cannon/ Mortars Mortars are indirect only Light 2d12 X3 720’ 1800’ 200 lbs 8 oz. Medium 4d10 X3 1440’ 3600’ 1500 lbs 4 lbs. Heavy 8d10 X3 2100’ 5250’ 2700 lbs 10 lbs. Super Heavy 15d10 X3 2200' 5550’ 8000 lbs 50 lbs. Pistol, Light: this is the basic muzzle loading flint lock pistol. It is small and light. Around 30 caliber. Pistol, Medium: this is the intermediate pistol and is around 50 caliber. Pistol, Heavy: the heaviest of the pistols and is around 70 caliber. Rifle, Light: as the light pistol but with a longer brail about 18” and a shoulder stock. It is also around 30 caliber. Rifle, Medium: much like the light rifle with a brail length of approximately 24” and a ball of 50 caliber. Rifle, Heavy: 30” brail or longer and a ball of around 70 caliber. Volley gun: volley guns are multi brail versions of the standard weapons there brail length is shorter then a rifle but slightly longer then a pistol. the dwarf’s have made these weapons have two moods of fire they will either fire a ball every second or they can fire all of the balls at once if this latter choice is used then any one standing in the square behind the firer tacks 1d6 fire damage, this is what the have done to combat the high recoil. Volley gun, Light: the standard volley gun with twelve brails it is around 30 caliber Volley gun, Medium: a heaver version with only ten brails. it is around 50 caliber Volley gun, Heavy: this is the heaviest of the volley guns with only eight brails and a boll of 70 caliber Flame Gun: this is a single tube or as many as six 1” tubes attached to a handle and a trigger each brail contains one shot. Cannon Light: the smallest and lightest of the heavy guns. Around 5 and ½ feet in length. Cannon Medium: with a projectile weight of 4 lbs. and the over all length of the gun at 7’ puts this square in the middle. Cannon Heavy: a projectile weight of 10 lbs and a 11’ over length these cannons are the real thing Cannon Super Heavy: a 50lbs ball and 12’ of gun and with a long these are known as Royal cannons Mortar: these weapons are designed to fire a arcing shot long distances and can fire up to twice cannons maximum range although mortars are always fired indirectly and there for act as a grenade like weapon. Mortar Light: this small mortar is identical to the same size cannon in all respects except fore weight witch is around 30 lbs, and a length of 1’. Very portable. Mortar Medium: a larger version of the light mortar but much less portable. With a weight of around 1000 lbs. with a brail length of 2’. Mortar Heavy: a mortar of this size is not easily portable with a 2700 lbs weight and a need to be set on even ground. The 5’ over all length helps little. Mortar Super Heavy: at 8000 lbs. and 7’ tall weapons of this size are normally only put in defiance positions. Ammunition Ball: A led, steal, or cast iron ball. Shot: a large number of smaller balls or be bees, in larger canons these are grape shot or larger. Canister Shot: a cylinder that fits loosely in the brail that holds shot. In the larger guns this is grape shot. These are made to come apart at range this distance can be a gusted as a full round action. Exploding Canister Shot: same as canister but with an explosive charge that makes the shot more dangerous Exploding Ball: this is a cast iron ball filed with explosive. The ball explodes on impact. Exploding Shot: Chain Shot: a long chain with balls attached to it. It is designed to tack out trees and other small free standing objects. Spider Shot: a central heavy ball connected to 8 chains with slightly smaller balls at the ends. Dart: a steal dart with heavy wadding. Exploding Dart: a steal dart packed with explosives Pistols and Volley Guns Rifles Cannons and Mortars Light Med Heavy Light Med Heavy Light Med Heavy SHeavy Shot: all shot grants a +2 attack and damage Range 25’ 50’ 75’ 50’ 100’ 150’ 450’ 1200’ 1310’ 1340’ Area 1’r 3’r 5’r 1’r 3’r 5’r 10’r 20’r 40’r 100’r Damage 1d6 1d8 1d10 2d6 2d8 2d10 2d12 4d10 8d10 15d10 Exploding Shot: Can be fired indirect. No reflex saves. Range ¬- - - - - - - - 1100' 1200' Area - - - - - - - - 50'r 120'r Damage - - - - - - - - 10d10 17d10 Canister: Fire indirect only +2 damage per damage die Range - - 150' - - 200' 800' 2000' 2200' 2400' Area - - 5'r - - 5'r 15'r 25'r 50'r 120'r Damage - - 1d10 - - 2d10 2d12 4d10 8d10 15d10 Exploding Canister: Can be fired indirect or direct + 4 damage per damage die Range - - 150' - - 200' 800' 2000' 2200' 2400' Area - - 5'r - - 5'r 10'r 25'r 50'r 120'r Damage - - 1d10 - - 2d10 2d12 4d10 8d10 15d10 Exploding Ball: X2 damage Range - - 150' - - 300' 800' 2000' 2200' 2400' Area - - - - - - 5' 10'r 15'r 25'r Damage - - 1d10 - - 2d10 2d12 4d10 8d10 15d10 Chain Shot: X2 damage to harden that is under the raids in size. Acts as line attack, trip attack. Range - - - - - - 180’ 360’ 540’ 558’ Area - - - - - - 1’r 6’r 20’r 50’r Damage - - - - - - 2d12 4d10 8d10 15d10 Spider Shot: acts as line attack or an area effect. Range - - - - - - - 550’ 1000’ 1100’ Area - - - - - - - 5’r 10’r 20’r Damage - - - - - - - 4d10 8d10 15d10 Dart: if the dart reduces its first target to 0 hp then it continues in a line dealing Ύ damage to the next target Range 150’ 275’ 350’ 350’ 550’ 900’ 1800’ 4800’ 5850’ 5550’ Damage 1d6 1d8 1d10 2d6 2d8 2d10 2d12 4d10 8d10 15d10 Exploding Dart: explodes on impact Range - 275’ 350 - 550’ 900’ 1800’ 4800’ 5250’ 5550’ Area - - 1’r - - 1’r 5’r 10’r 20’r 40’r Damage - 2d8 2d10 - 3d8 3d10 3d12 6d10 10d10 18d10
dragonheart 01-21-07, 04:30 PM	I take it this is for your homebrew world which means it really should be on the general D&D forums not here on the Forgotten realms forum. WHY??? why do you need/want all those guns? if the world has magic why invent guns? early firearms were not very good - the canons exploded (this is where the term Hoist by your own Petard (a type of canon) comes from) they took a long time to load ( breach loading while tried repeatedly from the 1300s on did not even come close to working until 1775 (the ferguson rifle) and didn't really work successfull until the invention of the metal cartridge by smith and wesson in 1858. Yes breech loading cannon should up slightly earlier (around 1840) but you are still talking about a good 400-500 years of development. if you are having firams be old in yoru world then maybe this sort of standardization makes sense but if they are young its excessive. still WHY have firarms at all?
Tetsubo 01-21-07, 05:12 PM	Why a strength requirement? I'm 5' 8" and clock in at 195 pounds. I am of very average strength. But I have never encountered a firearm that I could not successfully discharge without issue. Including firing .44 and .50 pistols with one hand and hitting the target. Shotguns, muzzleloaders and high powered rifles were also not a problem. I just don't see a need for an additional weapon mechanic...
GalaionEmpire 01-22-07, 03:42 AM	sorry about that I apparently was in to much of a hurry when I posted :D
MarkusTay63 01-22-07, 03:09 PM	Firearms already exist in the Realms, but they are exceedingly RARE. Gunpowder does not function in Realmspace, that is canon. Smokepowder is reqiured for firearms and that is created by an alchemical (magic) process. All the rules for them can be found on pgs. 11-13 of Forgotten realms Adventures
Ltlconf 01-24-07, 09:03 PM	WHY??? why do you need/want all those guns? if the world has magic why invent guns? Hello Folks, I agree with some of the critiques of others (what with the STR thing?) i do not agree with this one. I have talked with a gunsmith who makes flintlocks and also medieval weapons including early guns (hand cannon ect. though only for himself usually). He imformed that guns actually worked quite well under any conditions that bows work well (dry or decently dry conditions) and are exceedingly easy to make and fire, especially when compared to steel-staved crossbows (VERY hard to make and even slower to fire). The popularity of early guns is evident to anyone who reads the roles of armies from the mid 1300s on. Also most early cannon were indeed breech-loaders by the way, with the breach hammered in and in by wooden wedges. This proved slow and also difficult to fire once cannon moved to wheeled limbers for transport and field use, so muzzle loading took over. Not to mention it was discovered that a tight wadding in a muzzle loader gave a better range and penetration than breach loaded guns. Neither here nor there however. I will agree they all could be somewhat undependable, however tests by the Royal Armouries and the Patton Museum show that this was an exagerrated trait. A case of Medieval "If it bleeds it leads" in reporting. In otherwords, though risky by modern standards, if the loaders and gunners kept their wits about them (and nobody else put holes in them) they would likely live to retire. More likey than a frontline halberdier anyway. Hand cannons especially were quite prone to misfire in tests, but only when heated wire was used, once match was used misfires dropped by 60% (still had a 5% chance, nerve wracking when the knights are a'comin!). Hence they were used in defensive positions. So why invent guns in a magical world? Simple, becase the average burgher can't throw a fireball and he doesn't want that knight OR wizard telling him and his town (city ect.) what to do. Any Tom, Dick or Henrietta can fire a gun as another poster pointed out, hence why gnomes love 'em; gives the little bastiches the ability to reach out and WHACK someone HARD. The fact that FR guns are the even easier and more efficient matchlocks (as quick as a flintlock, though more complicated to fire) while as simple to make as RW guns makes them even more attractive. Sure the powder takes alchemy, but no rules say you have to be a wizard to be an alchemist (and if they do, a DM can change this easy). Even so, the powder is common enough for a wealthy guild or noble to get hands on enough to shake the foundations of any power structure. The better question is: Why not guns in a magical world? Ask a gnome.
dragonheart 01-26-07, 07:43 PM	yep guns are fairly effective and easy to make and use for ther untrained and that sure does make them useful for such groups (most of us) so I can see them appearing and perhaps even slowly taking over - my real point was more along the lines of "why do you want to put them into a fantasy/magic setting? once you have them why have swords and melee weapons and such - especially if they are treated as being as fast acting as the bows and spells etc. Yes breechloaders can be found back to nearly the origin of canon and some even got used but as you pointed out those wooden wedge "breechlocks" were slow, potentially dangerous and less effective due to blowback losses of propellant gases through the non-airtight breech when compared with muzzle loaders. They were also considerably less accurate. the effective aimed fire range of even the best muskets (match through flintlock) was under 100 yards - generally well under (much the same sort of range as the modern slug fired from a shotgun - about 80 yds) when compared to a bow or crossbow with aimed fire ranges measured out to nearly 300 or more yards and spells outdoors from 100 yards+ and up (Fireball range 400 ft + 40ft/level - minimum range = 600 feet = 200 yds) 1 mage is going to take out a lot of musketeers before someone gets lucky and hits him even if they are all aiming at him. Given the real world history of firearms I have a dislike for the use of flintlocks in a setting that is effectively 300-400 years too early for them. THis mass of weapons listed by the OP might be appropriate for a main D&D boards world set in a musketeers era campaign but to me its inappropriate for the realms which are set at about the 1300-1350 AD period at least as far as firearms are concerned. Matchlocks and some wheellocks I can see - mostly made to order and so no "stadardized" calibers etc yet. Also - good to see you back here LtConf - whether you agree with me or not :>
Ltlconf 01-28-07, 10:35 AM	Hello Folks, All you do say in response is true DH, but the point is that even though a smoothbore's effective AIMED range is only 10om, in a volley they are indeed devastating, no slower to load that a (real-life) steel staved arbalast, the only other weapon with similar penetration ability, as well as being made by the dozen or better for the price of one such crossbow. Also lighter to carry, easier to load (if no quicker) and a good rain won't ruin 'em. Also stick a dagger in the muzzle and it's a melee weapon (definitely one of those "well, DUH!" things)! If not, well, from (very accidental) personal experience a steel or brass covered hardwood stocks will literal crack a skull and I've crushed a coconut easily with my matchlock. While the breech loading canon is inefficent by today's standards, they were easily loaded and thus could be truly enormous and at any size were more effective than a trebuchet. Remember it was these weapons that ended the castle and broke through the triple walls of Constantinople, up to that time impregnable (all in the 15th century and well within FR's tech level if other things are any indication). They work well enough. I come from a long of soldiers and one thing I learned was "If it ain't broke don't fix, but if its better an' easier, use it!" Hand cannon were used because crossbows were expensive and tempermental and needed a real craftsman to fix, swords took a long time to master, a good longbowman took decades to create and you can't shoot pikes (the real destroyer of the knight). Thus while tempermental all you had to do to clear a musket was poke a wire through the touch hole to get the carbon out, or ram a brush down the barrel. Besides, being so cheap if it did break (not easy, I treat my 12 yr old musket like *@#% and it shoot well) a replacement was in the wagon! Thus within a century and a half (mid 14th to mid 16th) they became the most common missle weapon and went from hand cannon to matchlock. And as said before, not everyones a wizard or has one in his back pocket. As for the tech level, much of weapons development was a matter of "head-smacking" and really should have moved much faster considering the technology available. Unfortunately there were few mechanical engineers who were also military veterans (most great firearms inventors were hunters of military veterans well into the 20th century) and so things went slowly. Frankly the Romans could have designed a good gun if they'd known about gunpowder with their technology. De Vinci's a good example. A brilliant engineer but little practical experience on the sharp end, so his lock system, the wheel lock is complex and delicate and needs a fitted key to arm. On the other hand he likely lit his fireplace using a flintlock lighter that became the basis of the snap and then flint locks (head-slapping moment!). Frankly if the dwarves and gnomes, not to mention humans can create and build all those complex spring and mechanical traps, theoretically a snap or flint lock, or the mechanically simpler but very similar matchlock (all can in fact be adopted to the other in a common blacksmith's shop with a few days time). Want to be really miffed? Any decent Realms alchemist knows of fulminate of mercury so firing caps would be just as easy! Now, if you don't want guns, don't allow them. After all, the technology was around for a millenia and nobody put it all together and this is not a uncommon incident. After a the Romans never came up with the dirt simple (would've been for them) concentric castle and a gun is quite a engineering problem really. On the other hand a gun is really a mass combat/one shot weapon like the heavy crossbow or pike and it's thus never really changed the dynamic of my game. If they are clamboring for it, then adopt some rule changes to make melee combat more deadly, give rules advantages to make light armor and heavy armor more advantagous in certain (but opposing) ways and up much of the weapon damages (always too light in D&D anyway). Guns end up very useful but far from overpowering and weapons on whole more respected. FR is a SETTING not a system and I've even used GURPS with it (briefly, sorta worked but too much effort to convert everything) and now we more or less use an amalgamation of various OGL rule sets and this is working smoothly. Magic is less powerful but still common and more flexiable, combat nastier, character classes more open, races less balanced but humans more attractive, armor and weapons more realistic and prestige classes all but gone (keeps down the mini-maxing and a slew of character classes make them redundant most times anyway). All this, Dragonheart, adds up to guns, even flintlocks, more of a nasty surprise than a world beater. We fire (six of us) and then close in for the fight. Think a pirate movie or "Rob Roy" than a fire-fight. Basicly its like everyone has a one shot spell!
dragonheart 01-28-07, 10:19 PM	that works and fits in. As I said I'm biased agasint them (in D&D anyway).
Ltlconf 01-31-07, 01:32 AM	Hello Folks. Never forget to, Dragonheart, that until some whack-job of an inventor does come up with an artillery limber, artillery on a battlefield is a non-factor and the Wizard comes to his own. As firepower in a small-scale fire-fight a Wizard, even at moderate level is over-kill. It's like taking a Tiger I tank into action against a fire team (four Marines and a medium machinegun)! On the other hand when stacked up against a whole company its the thing for the job. Think what a fireball would do to a platoon of Musketeers. GULP!:gah: As artillery wizards are deadly: Versatile, mobile, easily hid from casual observation and well protected. Frankly, you could say that field artilly would be redundant except that guns are harder to kill with bullets and arrows. I've long felt Wizards to be overkill in various situations and the D&D spell list heavily slanted towards combat spells (well, it did start as a combat game, in its defense) and in a setting were the firepower of the common opposition is upped this makes some sense. Even if magic is less common its still deadly to a musketeer who doesn't get the first shot (Aaah fire!BOOM!). So it gives the non-wizard (or common peasant trying to keep the monsters at bay) an edge in a magical, monster infested world I would certainly want!:fight!: Its definitely a matter of personal taste to be sure, as I've long felt FR to be a Rennaisance style setting whether intended or not (not in the mid eighties, but by late 2nd Ed definitely). Others don't as I'm well aware, but if you're going to have full Gothic and/or Maximillian plate you might as well have what was around then. Just my two cents though and any setting is a timeline grab bag to say the least! Basicly Dragonheart, I understand your bias, especially as a matter of setting feel and agree to your right as DM to do so. I also fully support it, make no mistake. I for one do NOT allow guns in my KoK, Conan, BR, AGoT, WoHF, Blackmoor, LoDT, SS, DS, Nyambe, Birthright or SL campaigns while allowing them in Ravenloft, Freeport and FR. So I certainly do not run amock (except in running so many campaign settiings over the years):D! What the question is, really, is how to handle the wide variety of technologies and what exist and what doesn't. That can keep me up all night writing notes down!
Tobek 02-14-07, 09:32 PM	Well to make smoke powder the FRCS states that you need 9 ranks in Alchemy and the craft wonderous item feat. So I believe you would need to be a spell caster because of the feat required. Unless you house rule something different. That is if you need to be a spell caster to take magical item creation feats. ;)
Tetsubo 02-15-07, 07:40 AM	Well to make smoke powder the FRCS states that you need 9 ranks in Alchemy and the craft wonderous item feat. So I believe you would need to be a spell caster because of the feat required. Unless you house rule something different. That is if you need to be a spell caster to take magical item creation feats. ;) I would rule the requirement to be 12 ranks in Alchemy, no metamagic feats needed. Smokepowder should be an alchemical substance, not a purely magical one...
Tobek 02-15-07, 07:59 PM	Well in the Realms gun powder does not work (which I would see being a completely alchemical item). The Craft wonderous item is there to represent the magical element needed in creating smokepowder, You can use alchemy without being a spell caster, you just can't make magical potions and items without being a spell caster. As smoke powder is magical you would need to be atleast a 3rd lvl spell caster (i believe) and have the wonderous item feat. You are of course able to tweek this as you wish in your setting. But I kind of like it that way, it adds a magical element to even weapons that would not be typically seen as magical (would be otherwise viewed as a technological development). About the availablity of smokepowder weapons though. Yes smokepowder weapons would given a common man more powerful (no where comparable to a wizard but still in large numbers very strong). You also need to look at the price of smokepowder weapons in FR. 500 gp for a musket. Now I don't know any common man that could afford that kind of a weapon besides a wealthy merchant. Even then it would be hard getting access to someone who could maintain/repair said weapon and get large supplies of smokepowder. It would not be to practical thus a tool of the wealthy and rare. This is of course entirely up to the gm to decide how wide spread there use is. I really like the Idea behind the original poster and making musket type weapons more available adds a renaissance flavor to the setting which is appealing.
boggler65 02-26-07, 02:20 AM	Uhh... like most people have pointed out, this sounds like a non-realms game. It's your campaign and you should do what you feel like doing, but i think you'll find that your rules are going to seriously mess up game mechanics. If you're going to use them, lower your range increments, early guns were not accurate. Bottom line if this is a realms campaign and you want guns, use the stats given in the FRCS, just lower the cost or something. Personally I don't like to make guns easily available in a fantasy setting, the whole point of the campaign is to focus on the adventurers, in FR especially there are very few large scale wars in which the "common" man really needs that edge. Most conflicts are against raiding monsters or some such. That's my opinion, and I agree that if this is non-FRCS it should not be on here.
gospel357 03-13-07, 09:34 AM	for my own rules for gun use (A Handcannon in the hands of a rouge is very devistating by the way) I looked up the rules for guns in the Iron Kingdoms game setting (www.Ironkingdoms.com) and mix them together with other rules to make it work. This is the rules i use for my games. Handcannon- Damage 2d6, x3 Critical Loading time-equivilent to two movement action ----Feats usable: Rapid Reload (adjust for gun use), Combat Loading (each feat cuts the movement actions down by 1.) On a natural 1 or 2 the gun backfires and cannot be used until it's repaired Skills-Craft Small Arms- For repairs and bullet creation (Cr usually 10-20 (depending on the repairs needed) Bullet CR is 5) -Alchemy- Smoke Powder- Cr 15 (missing by 5 causes an explosion) Making the Cr gives you about 3 shots worth of powder but ever 5 points higher then 15 rolled you increase your yeild by one shot. Thats about it. If you wanna use these rules then go for it, i'm glad i helped someone. Later