Rangers lowest TW penalty [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rangers lowest TW penalty [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gambitorian
07-02-07, 04:56 PM How do i get the lowest penalty when fighting with two weapons with a pure lvl 18 ranger? I cant find ambidexterity in the 3.5 phb....... also, how do i calculate how many attacks i get with and without haste? Thanx in advance.
Zandilar
07-02-07, 06:34 PM Heya,

How do i get the lowest penalty when fighting with two weapons with a pure lvl 18 ranger? I cant find ambidexterity in the 3.5 phb....... also, how do i calculate how many attacks i get with and without haste? Thanx in advance.

Ambidexterity doesn't exist in 3.5e, it kind of got folded into Two Weapon Fighting.

With Two Weapon Fighting, you get a penalty of -2/-2 with you attacks, provided you're using a light weapon in your off hand (so a rapier or a short sword). So if you had a BAB of +5, STR 14, Two Weapon Fighting and using a light weapon, you'd get a total of +5/+5 to hit. (If you were using two long swords, however, it would only be +3/+3). That's pretty much the best you can do with feats...

Improved, Greater, and Perfect Two Weapon Fighting gives you additional attacks, but doesn't remove any of the penalty (-2/-2 if you're using a light weapon in your secondary hand).

Haste gives you an additional attack at your highest attack bonus with any weapon you're holding, so in the case of an AB of +7 (as in the above example), with TWF feat and a light weapon in your secondary hand you'd end up with +5/+5 with your primary hand and +5 with your secondary hand - but only if you're making a full attack action. (Lets put it up to a total AB of +15 and use only the TWF feat to show you better... with two weapons you'd get +13/+13/+8/+3 with your primary hand, and +13 with your secondary hand.)

[With a level 18 Ranger with say 16 strength, his AB would be +21. So with a light secondary weapon, his attack sequence for a full attack would be +19/+14/+9/+4 with his primary hand, and +19/+14/+9 with his secondary (Combat Style Mastery grants Greater Two Weapon Fighting). With haste his primary hand attack sequence would be +19/+19/+14/+9/+4, and his secondary sequence would be unchanged. This assumes no other feats that would give bonuses to his AB, such as Greater Weapon Focus.]
bitter thorn
07-03-07, 11:51 AM I can't think of any WotC feats that would drop the TWF penalty below -2/-2. Common tactics to off set this are Weapon Finesse for high dex characters and Weapon Focus typically for identical paired weapons.

PrCs are out, so the Tempest won't help you. Can you use non WotC feats?
Dielzen
07-03-07, 12:58 PM Small correction, the rapier is not a light weapon to use in your offhand. It's an allowed option for Weapon Finesse, but it's not a light weapon.

Tempest & Dervish are among the two best PrCs for TWF, if you combine them you can use Scimitar as if it was light, and you get back the -2 for TWFing, so that, in the end, you can TWF two Scimitars with no penalty.

TWFing is also considered vastly inferior to 1h/shield or bow fighting unless you have a source of bonus damage (such as Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Sudden Strike, etc.)
bitter thorn
07-04-07, 12:59 AM TWFing is also considered vastly inferior to 1h/shield or bow fighting unless you have a source of bonus damage (such as Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Sudden Strike, etc.)

Favored enemy bonuses, Nemesis, Bane and Hunter can add up in a hurry for a TWF Ranger build also.
admdavid
07-06-07, 05:58 PM There also is an Over-sized TWF Feat that allows you to use a longsword in your secondary hand and take the penalties as if you were using a light weapon. I can't remember where I found that, though.
Gambitorian
07-10-07, 06:29 PM ok if anyone would care to help with the math, the aforementioned lvl 18 elven ranger

str=10
dex=30=(gloves of dex +6)
con=10
int=13
wis=14
cha=8

associated feats are: favored enemies= orc, dragons, magical beasts, giants, and constructs, combat style 1, combat style mastery, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, weapon finesse, weapon focus-scimitar, improved critical-scimitar, and we have not chosen the last four feats. we want the most bang for the buck.

if i use a two handed scimitar will i earn the 1 1/2 damage bonus for using a weapon two handed, and will i still get 7 attacks?
The_Shaman
07-10-07, 07:13 PM No, there is no 2-handed scimitar anymore, if you are thinking of the 3.0 rules. Okay, it is called falchion, but you do not wield it in one hand. You can wield a large scimitar, but with Monkey grip you wield it as a regular 1-handed weapon (with penalties), and without it you can wield it two-handed (again, with penalties), in which case you only get 4 attacks (you attack with 1 weapon). If you wield 2 scimitars, just get oversized TWF and start chopping. The elven ranger you show should not go anywhere near scimitars, either, at least without something to make them finessable. Kukri, tiger claws (Silver marches, 1d6 18-20x2 exotic light claw weapons), short swords/handaxes, lightblades and thinblades are much better.
Gambitorian
07-10-07, 07:45 PM the scimitar, double is in arms and equipment guide 3.5
Dielzen
07-10-07, 07:58 PM A&EG was published in March 2003, 3.5PHB was July of '03 -- it's not a 3.5 book, and without having looked at it in a while, I'd say it's not even a 3.25 book, based on my recollection of the information located therein.
Diffan
07-12-07, 08:15 AM If you have 4 extra feats and you must use scimitars, then I'd go with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CAdv), Improved Critical (to make the crit 15-20), Two-Weapon Pounce (PHB II), and Two-Weapon Rend (PHB II). Oversized Twf treats the scimitar as a light weapon, as people have said, thus allowing you to use your Dex mod to hit.

If you don't have access to the PHB II, then maybe Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization
sirjimbob
07-12-07, 10:42 PM ok if anyone would care to help with the math, the aforementioned lvl 18 elven ranger

str=10
dex=30=(gloves of dex +6)
con=10
int=13
wis=14
cha=8

associated feats are: favored enemies= orc, dragons, magical beasts, giants, and constructs, combat style 1, combat style mastery, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, weapon finesse, weapon focus-scimitar, improved critical-scimitar, and we have not chosen the last four feats. we want the most bang for the buck.

Oversize 2 weapon is a must. Might want to pick up improve trip or disarm. Maybe power attack due to lack of Str with the high AB of 29 when 2 weapon fighting.

That is not the best stats for melee types. With a d8 for HP and max at first avg HP is 86. Without any Str for damage even with to heavy magic swords doesn't give you much edge. Get a belt for Str +6 and up your Con at lest by +4 which net you 36 more HP.

For favor enemies have dragons, magical beast first or second then giants and constructs third or forth, orcs last for big bonus for the bigger baddies
The_Shaman
07-17-07, 08:02 AM A&EG was published in March 2003, 3.5PHB was July of '03 -- it's not a 3.5 book, and without having looked at it in a while, I'd say it's not even a 3.25 book, based on my recollection of the information located therein.

Ah, I think you can use a double scimitar as a two-handed weapon (at least you should, as per the staff and other double weapons), but then you only attack with one end.
Suin Bahhar
07-23-07, 03:39 PM Dont forget rangers dont need to meet the prerequisites for their two weaponfighting style abilities. A ranger with maxxed strength and a double weapon or oversized weapon fighting and powerattack can put on heaps of damage on foes with a full attack.
In fact I plan on converting a Valenar PrC for te realms for a next character of mine. It allows powerattacking with a double weapon as if it is a 2handed weapon with both ends (so sacking 2 attack bonus will giver me a +4 damage on every attack made in the pounced full attack with a double scimitar).
admdavid
07-24-07, 06:58 PM My last ranger had all the TWF feats granted automatically plus the TW Rend and he could pump out 80-120 HP of damage per round using 2 +2 longswords, one of which was a Bane weapon and the other a flaming. My character's STR was 20, DEX 22 and he had about 120 HPs. He was the tank of that group.
ClobberinTime
07-26-07, 02:58 PM Favored enemy bonuses, Nemesis, Bane and Hunter can add up in a hurry for a TWF Ranger build also.

Bane and Hunter, what are those, I got Nemesis in BoED
dragonheart
07-27-07, 09:35 AM My last ranger had all the TWF feats granted automatically plus the TW Rend and he could pump out 80-120 HP of damage per round using 2 +2 longswords, one of which was a Bane weapon and the other a flaming. My character's STR was 20, DEX 22 and he had about 120 HPs. He was the tank of that group.

here is a wild damage run for you -
I have a ranger/monk combo level 20 with the ascetic hunter feat who fights with either a +3 long sword/+2 pick-hammer combo or with bare hands. He actually does more damage barehanded than he does with the weapons. 4 attacks with the sword (average 28 pts + strength and and 3 attacks with the pick/hammer average 15 pts + strength) = 43 pts + strength if all attacks hit. open hand is 7 attacks, each doing 2 D10 points or 70 pts average + strength bonuses. So unless he needs the weapons for special circumstances he fights like a monk but has most of the benefits of a 20th level ranger - very nasty :D . AND, because the attacks are unarmed he gets to apply his full strength bonus to the 3 "offhand" attacks instead of only 1/2 the strength bonus as is normally allowed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gambitorian 07-02-07, 04:56 PM	How do i get the lowest penalty when fighting with two weapons with a pure lvl 18 ranger? I cant find ambidexterity in the 3.5 phb....... also, how do i calculate how many attacks i get with and without haste? Thanx in advance.
Zandilar 07-02-07, 06:34 PM	Heya, How do i get the lowest penalty when fighting with two weapons with a pure lvl 18 ranger? I cant find ambidexterity in the 3.5 phb....... also, how do i calculate how many attacks i get with and without haste? Thanx in advance. Ambidexterity doesn't exist in 3.5e, it kind of got folded into Two Weapon Fighting. With Two Weapon Fighting, you get a penalty of -2/-2 with you attacks, provided you're using a light weapon in your off hand (so a rapier or a short sword). So if you had a BAB of +5, STR 14, Two Weapon Fighting and using a light weapon, you'd get a total of +5/+5 to hit. (If you were using two long swords, however, it would only be +3/+3). That's pretty much the best you can do with feats... Improved, Greater, and Perfect Two Weapon Fighting gives you additional attacks, but doesn't remove any of the penalty (-2/-2 if you're using a light weapon in your secondary hand). Haste gives you an additional attack at your highest attack bonus with any weapon you're holding, so in the case of an AB of +7 (as in the above example), with TWF feat and a light weapon in your secondary hand you'd end up with +5/+5 with your primary hand and +5 with your secondary hand - but only if you're making a full attack action. (Lets put it up to a total AB of +15 and use only the TWF feat to show you better... with two weapons you'd get +13/+13/+8/+3 with your primary hand, and +13 with your secondary hand.) [With a level 18 Ranger with say 16 strength, his AB would be +21. So with a light secondary weapon, his attack sequence for a full attack would be +19/+14/+9/+4 with his primary hand, and +19/+14/+9 with his secondary (Combat Style Mastery grants Greater Two Weapon Fighting). With haste his primary hand attack sequence would be +19/+19/+14/+9/+4, and his secondary sequence would be unchanged. This assumes no other feats that would give bonuses to his AB, such as Greater Weapon Focus.]
bitter thorn 07-03-07, 11:51 AM	I can't think of any WotC feats that would drop the TWF penalty below -2/-2. Common tactics to off set this are Weapon Finesse for high dex characters and Weapon Focus typically for identical paired weapons. PrCs are out, so the Tempest won't help you. Can you use non WotC feats?
Dielzen 07-03-07, 12:58 PM	Small correction, the rapier is not a light weapon to use in your offhand. It's an allowed option for Weapon Finesse, but it's not a light weapon. Tempest & Dervish are among the two best PrCs for TWF, if you combine them you can use Scimitar as if it was light, and you get back the -2 for TWFing, so that, in the end, you can TWF two Scimitars with no penalty. TWFing is also considered vastly inferior to 1h/shield or bow fighting unless you have a source of bonus damage (such as Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Sudden Strike, etc.)
bitter thorn 07-04-07, 12:59 AM	TWFing is also considered vastly inferior to 1h/shield or bow fighting unless you have a source of bonus damage (such as Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Sudden Strike, etc.) Favored enemy bonuses, Nemesis, Bane and Hunter can add up in a hurry for a TWF Ranger build also.
admdavid 07-06-07, 05:58 PM	There also is an Over-sized TWF Feat that allows you to use a longsword in your secondary hand and take the penalties as if you were using a light weapon. I can't remember where I found that, though.
Gambitorian 07-10-07, 06:29 PM	ok if anyone would care to help with the math, the aforementioned lvl 18 elven ranger str=10 dex=30=(gloves of dex +6) con=10 int=13 wis=14 cha=8 associated feats are: favored enemies= orc, dragons, magical beasts, giants, and constructs, combat style 1, combat style mastery, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, weapon finesse, weapon focus-scimitar, improved critical-scimitar, and we have not chosen the last four feats. we want the most bang for the buck. if i use a two handed scimitar will i earn the 1 1/2 damage bonus for using a weapon two handed, and will i still get 7 attacks?
The_Shaman 07-10-07, 07:13 PM	No, there is no 2-handed scimitar anymore, if you are thinking of the 3.0 rules. Okay, it is called falchion, but you do not wield it in one hand. You can wield a large scimitar, but with Monkey grip you wield it as a regular 1-handed weapon (with penalties), and without it you can wield it two-handed (again, with penalties), in which case you only get 4 attacks (you attack with 1 weapon). If you wield 2 scimitars, just get oversized TWF and start chopping. The elven ranger you show should not go anywhere near scimitars, either, at least without something to make them finessable. Kukri, tiger claws (Silver marches, 1d6 18-20x2 exotic light claw weapons), short swords/handaxes, lightblades and thinblades are much better.
Gambitorian 07-10-07, 07:45 PM	the scimitar, double is in arms and equipment guide 3.5
Dielzen 07-10-07, 07:58 PM	A&EG was published in March 2003, 3.5PHB was July of '03 -- it's not a 3.5 book, and without having looked at it in a while, I'd say it's not even a 3.25 book, based on my recollection of the information located therein.
Diffan 07-12-07, 08:15 AM	If you have 4 extra feats and you must use scimitars, then I'd go with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CAdv), Improved Critical (to make the crit 15-20), Two-Weapon Pounce (PHB II), and Two-Weapon Rend (PHB II). Oversized Twf treats the scimitar as a light weapon, as people have said, thus allowing you to use your Dex mod to hit. If you don't have access to the PHB II, then maybe Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization
sirjimbob 07-12-07, 10:42 PM	ok if anyone would care to help with the math, the aforementioned lvl 18 elven ranger str=10 dex=30=(gloves of dex +6) con=10 int=13 wis=14 cha=8 associated feats are: favored enemies= orc, dragons, magical beasts, giants, and constructs, combat style 1, combat style mastery, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, weapon finesse, weapon focus-scimitar, improved critical-scimitar, and we have not chosen the last four feats. we want the most bang for the buck. Oversize 2 weapon is a must. Might want to pick up improve trip or disarm. Maybe power attack due to lack of Str with the high AB of 29 when 2 weapon fighting. That is not the best stats for melee types. With a d8 for HP and max at first avg HP is 86. Without any Str for damage even with to heavy magic swords doesn't give you much edge. Get a belt for Str +6 and up your Con at lest by +4 which net you 36 more HP. For favor enemies have dragons, magical beast first or second then giants and constructs third or forth, orcs last for big bonus for the bigger baddies
The_Shaman 07-17-07, 08:02 AM	A&EG was published in March 2003, 3.5PHB was July of '03 -- it's not a 3.5 book, and without having looked at it in a while, I'd say it's not even a 3.25 book, based on my recollection of the information located therein. Ah, I think you can use a double scimitar as a two-handed weapon (at least you should, as per the staff and other double weapons), but then you only attack with one end.
Suin Bahhar 07-23-07, 03:39 PM	Dont forget rangers dont need to meet the prerequisites for their two weaponfighting style abilities. A ranger with maxxed strength and a double weapon or oversized weapon fighting and powerattack can put on heaps of damage on foes with a full attack. In fact I plan on converting a Valenar PrC for te realms for a next character of mine. It allows powerattacking with a double weapon as if it is a 2handed weapon with both ends (so sacking 2 attack bonus will giver me a +4 damage on every attack made in the pounced full attack with a double scimitar).
admdavid 07-24-07, 06:58 PM	My last ranger had all the TWF feats granted automatically plus the TW Rend and he could pump out 80-120 HP of damage per round using 2 +2 longswords, one of which was a Bane weapon and the other a flaming. My character's STR was 20, DEX 22 and he had about 120 HPs. He was the tank of that group.
ClobberinTime 07-26-07, 02:58 PM	Favored enemy bonuses, Nemesis, Bane and Hunter can add up in a hurry for a TWF Ranger build also. Bane and Hunter, what are those, I got Nemesis in BoED
dragonheart 07-27-07, 09:35 AM	My last ranger had all the TWF feats granted automatically plus the TW Rend and he could pump out 80-120 HP of damage per round using 2 +2 longswords, one of which was a Bane weapon and the other a flaming. My character's STR was 20, DEX 22 and he had about 120 HPs. He was the tank of that group. here is a wild damage run for you - I have a ranger/monk combo level 20 with the ascetic hunter feat who fights with either a +3 long sword/+2 pick-hammer combo or with bare hands. He actually does more damage barehanded than he does with the weapons. 4 attacks with the sword (average 28 pts + strength and and 3 attacks with the pick/hammer average 15 pts + strength) = 43 pts + strength if all attacks hit. open hand is 7 attacks, each doing 2 D10 points or 70 pts average + strength bonuses. So unless he needs the weapons for special circumstances he fights like a monk but has most of the benefits of a 20th level ranger - very nasty :D . AND, because the attacks are unarmed he gets to apply his full strength bonus to the 3 "offhand" attacks instead of only 1/2 the strength bonus as is normally allowed.