| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| 1 ton ghost08-04-07, 02:54 PM | ok, there was a sizeable debate and one Hell of a history lesson, but not alot was accomplished. anyway, for better or worse, a theory: they're rare, hard to get, Gondar don't like to parcel out their secrets, you know, like the "printing press" though i suspect the clerics of Jergal, Ohgma, and Deneir will ultimately use Divine Seekers to spirit that secret away. given the reload time, relative dangers to open flame, etc., why use one? we were beginning to implement them as ranged touches basically: -gunpowder basically changed warfare and made armor obsolete, save many centuries till Kevlar anyway. someone said Full Plate was instituted to stop this, but it is not so. same deal w/ longbows, they could kill knights which made nobles very nervous. same w/ x-bows, (hence the simple weapon proficiency-even a commoner can figure it out), this is why a Pope outlawed them until they were needed for one of the crusades. so, we guessed RANGED TOUCH in the case of most attacks vs. armors to compensate for poor firing rate and the accidental mishaps (rolling a 1 should perhaps force a Reflex save [exploding breach], etc.), though some monsters are so thick skinned that some natural armor needs to be taken into account. i mean, leather, chainmail even, etc., won't really stop a bullet in it's 1st couple range increments. perhaps beyond that in addition to the -2/range increment, some consideration for armor, etc? still have to do with wind veer, rain, etc. surely a compromise can be met, but with all the drawbacks, i don't think they really thought out the advantages |
| GoldDragon08-05-07, 08:36 AM | ok, there was a sizeable debate and one Hell of a history lesson, but not alot was accomplished. anyway, for better or worse, a theory: they're rare, hard to get, Gondar don't like to parcel out their secrets, you know, like the "printing press" though i suspect the clerics of Jergal, Ohgma, and Deneir will ultimately use Divine Seekers to spirit that secret away. given the reload time, relative dangers to open flame, etc., why use one? we were beginning to implement them as ranged touches basically: -gunpowder basically changed warfare and made armor obsolete, save many centuries till Kevlar anyway. someone said Full Plate was instituted to stop this, but it is not so. same deal w/ longbows, they could kill knights which made nobles very nervous. same w/ x-bows, (hence the simple weapon proficiency-even a commoner can figure it out), this is why a Pope outlawed them until they were needed for one of the crusades. so, we guessed RANGED TOUCH in the case of most attacks vs. armors to compensate for poor firing rate and the accidental mishaps (rolling a 1 should perhaps force a Reflex save [exploding breach], etc.), though some monsters are so thick skinned that some natural armor needs to be taken into account. i mean, leather, chainmail even, etc., won't really stop a bullet in it's 1st couple range increments. perhaps beyond that in addition to the -2/range increment, some consideration for armor, etc? still have to do with wind veer, rain, etc. surely a compromise can be met, but with all the drawbacks, i don't think they really thought out the advantages Actually it was the Fact you could field 500 men with guns and limited training and suplies for the cost of 1 Knight, His Armor, his back up Armor, his Horse, His Back up Horse, his Weapons, His Back up weapon, his Squires, the Squire's Equipment and Horses,etc,etc,yadda yadda yadda that made "Walking Tanks" obsolete Guns Existed way before Metal Armor ("Fire sticks" in China are as old as Gunpowder) and a Armorer would shoot a Breast Plate of Plate Armor at close range as a test of quality and polish out the dent as a "mark of Quality (Real Plate Armor isn't that tin foil crap you may see at Renaissance Fairs) Plate Mail, Field Plate, and Full Plate (including Solomonic) was effectively "Bullet Proof" and a "walking Tank" would plow through gunners as easily as bowmen with their 2 handed Swords....it was economics that made it Gunners v.s. Gunners instead of "Walking Tanks" v.s. Gunners (500 Gunners v.s. 2 Knights or 500 Gunners v.s. 1000 gunners? Don't laugh, it may take a while for 2 knights to kill 500 Gunners in various stages of reload....but it will happen if they don't fallback/flee once the Knights make it into their ranks and cut through them like butter with all thier Men at Arms/Squires in tow) And in a world of Magic the Shield Spell deters bullets even fired from guns as does Minor globe of invunrability, Globe of Invunrability, Stone Skin, and magical weapons needed to hit hides. For instance use a Machine Gun on a Ancient Red Dragon with a +5 needed to Hit Hide and all you'll get is an irritated Dragon (unless the bullets are enchanted) Likwwise shooting a Spector with a gun is useless unless the bullets are enchanted to at least +2 to hit/damage Also in game Mechanics, Monks would be able to catch or deflect bullets fired from even guns and fireshields and force cages and the like would deflect or stop them. |
| Lady_Mhaor08-05-07, 09:27 AM | Magic > smokepowder woot :P and whats the ratio on a smokepowder cannon 5 to 1 or something |
| 1 ton ghost08-05-07, 01:55 PM | if you say so... |
| arveiaturace_nartheling08-05-07, 03:42 PM | no you can not get 500 men to cost less than 500 knights unlike normal history there the china's sold out there gun powder secrect the gond's keep in a secret and charge alot for it. plus a level one mage can kill all 500 with a small flicker of flame or ruin 100,000 of gold pieces use a water spell on the 500 men a small rain would ruin the 500 men like that |
| thedude7208-08-07, 01:29 AM | which is why i bury a couple barrels under about an inch of soil,then hit it with a fireball when enemys get close "hey jim,you see that guy on the hill?" "and the little glowing thing headed for-" BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! :D |
| The WarOverlord08-20-07, 07:49 AM | no you can not get 500 men to cost less than 500 knights unlike normal history there the china's sold out there gun powder secrect the gond's keep in a secret and charge alot for it. plus a level one mage can kill all 500 with a small flicker of flame or ruin 100,000 of gold pieces use a water spell on the 500 men a small rain would ruin the 500 men like that No,No,No 500 gunners will cost as much as ONE Knight in the field for a month Example...by the costs in the Equipment and Arms Guide Cost of 1 Knight Full Plate Armor 4000gp Field Plate Armor 2000gp Plate Mail 600gp Basic Weapon set 700Gp (Lance,Broad sword,Long Sword, Mace,jvlns) Back up Weapo 700 GP Horse (Trained) 2000gp Back up Horse 2000gp Plate Barding 3000gp Support Crew 25000gp (3 Squire's Gear, 10 pack mules and tenants,wages for Armorer,Huntsmens/Cooks, gear and equipment, and rations..1 month...remember as nobility Knights travel with a lot of Servants and all the Creature comforts an Encampment can hold) ----------------------------- cost of fielding 1 Knight for a month 40,000gp (with some cost reaccuring...namely Wages, food, and materials for maintaining and repairing weapons and Armor) v.s. 500 Gunners (salary 6 gp a month) 3000gp 500 Guns (500x500Gp Arbuqcus) 25000gp 100 bullets each (5gpx500) 2500gp Short Swords (10gpx500) 5000gp Studed Leather (15gpx500) 7500gp Smoke powder Barrel 500gp (at just a few pinches a shot it will cover 5000 shots easy) 500 marching Boots (5gpx500) 2500gp 3 Huntsman/cooks&Chuck Wagon 1500gp ---------------------------------------- Cost for fielding 500 gunners for month 46500gp Now which would you field in a Battle? 10 Knights or 5000 gunners if you had 500,000gp to field either or? Do note for 12500gp I have created Gunners that can double as light Infantry cause they are armed with Short Swords and armored with Studded Leather and trained with the Short Sword as well as their gun for at least a month before they ever see the field. (much better then Bayonets, though just by tying their short sword to the edge of their riffles with leather straps they make a crude but effective version of the Bayonet) |
| 1 ton ghost08-22-07, 02:29 PM | um, yeah, these stats and all are illuminating to be sure, but the OP is still pending... is there a compromise given armor penetration and the bullet's kinetic energy. i know there is no explicit rules to illustrate hydrostatic shock or knockback/down when stuck, i'm just talking about the attack roll, not financing an army btw... |
| DrunkMonk08-23-07, 06:44 PM | Gunners vs. knights is an interesting comparison, but they have different roles to play. You should be looking at gunners vs. composite long bows. Look at the range, damage, cost, and rate of fire and then gunners may not be the most cost effective after all. Just a thought. DM |
| arveiaturace_nartheling08-23-07, 07:55 PM | cost of torch 10gp poiton of no see 2500gp and guess what all your gunners die =- |
| MarkHall08-23-07, 09:38 PM | Gunners vs. knights is an interesting comparison, but they have different roles to play. You should be looking at gunners vs. composite long bows. Look at the range, damage, cost, and rate of fire and then gunners may not be the most cost effective after all. Not quite. While longbows and gunners fill similar roles, the main downfall of the knight was the gun. If I can field 50 times the warriors, with a weapon which should be piercing armor, I can get rid of knights as a viable force on the battlefield. |
| DrunkMonk08-23-07, 11:27 PM | There is more than 1 issue being discussed. The idea that knights are not cost efficient, and the idea that certain weapons should make knights useless in combat (bullets and certain kinds of arrows). When I said that you should compare riflemen to longbow troops, I was addressing the cost issue. Comparing knights and riflemen by cost is absurd. Particularly when there are a lot of random house rule cost assumptions about extra baggage. If that is the comparison, of course knights are going to be useless. If the argument is armor should not count against certain weapons, that would be a cool way to run the game at your table, but that ignores how the game is run normally. Once you start bringing in real world/historical arguments, you suddenly find yourself in the arms race argument that shows up all the time. If you have rifles to beat my armor, then I build a Divinci tank in response. Then all of your rifles are useless, and your 50 times as many troops are no longer a viable force. It gets silly fast. DM |
| arveiaturace_nartheling08-24-07, 06:22 AM | or one misloaded gun all your gunners die again |
| MarkHall08-24-07, 11:10 PM | or one misloaded gun all your gunners die again No. One likely dies, or is severely injured, and others may be injured if you have them in a close line in the Swedish style. In any case, one gun exploding will not result in all 500 gunners dying. To the cost issue, I agree that the costs assumed for the knight are a little extreme. |
| MarkusTay6308-25-07, 11:16 AM | no you can not get 500 men to cost less than 500 knights unlike normal history there the china's sold out there gun powder secrect the gond's keep in a secret and charge alot for it.Like I said in the other thread, Kara-Tur has had Smokepowder for years - way longer then those silly Gondsmen. With the large influx of Shou expatriates living in the UE right now, some of them are bound to know how to make it. And you don't need to be a mage either, you just need to know Alchemy. Now, in the RAW, usually that means you have to be a mage just to take Alchemy, but in Kara-Tur, non-mages make the stuff. That means that a Shou expert must also be able to take Alchemy. :D So go over to Thesk, and find some of them that make fireworks to whip up a couple hundred pounds for you. ;) Also, the 2e Thayan Bombards used Smokepowder, although this contradicts both older and newer lore. However, in the 2e FRA, the ones listed use Smokepowder, not the alchemical liqued. Obviously, immediately after the ToT the Thayans stole the idea of Smokepowder and used it in a few prototypes, but later switched back to the older method. So if you can find a Red Wizard who was one of the ones in on those experiments, all you have to do is convince him to create something with a lot of destructive potential that will also make him rich in the process. I don't think that should be too hard - expect Smokepowder to start appearing in a Thayan Enclave near you. :dancin: Now there's a thought - a Thayan Gnoll army, all armed with Winchesters. :devil: |
| Purple Dragon Knight08-25-07, 08:50 PM | Gnome Gunner [Regional] Prerequisites: Gnome (Lantan, Thesk, The Western Heartlands). Benefits: You are proficient with all weapons powered by smokepowder or designated as firearms. All firearms are listed in the DMG under "Exotic Weapons (Firearms)". A weapon is considered powered by smokepowder if its description lists a smokepowder or gunpowder requirement. In addition, thanks to both the intimate level of worksmanship and skill that the Forgotten Folk have devoted towards the development of the firearm, you have a natural knack at loading these devices in an optimal fashion and drawing the full potential of a charge of smokepowder: when using a firearm, you gain a +1 racial bonus to damage and only require a move action to reload the weapon. This application of the feat only applies to the use of firearms, and not to other weapons covered by this feat (i.e. such as large siege engines powered by smokepowder). Normal: Without this feat, you must select the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, as per p.144 of the DMG, to eliminate the nonprofiency penalty you take when wielding any firearm. Also, a firearm normally requires a standard action to reload. Special: You may select this feat only at a 1st level character. You may have only one Regional feat. A fighter may select Gnome Gunner as his 1st level fighter bonus feat. |
| The WarOverlord08-30-07, 03:27 PM | cost of torch 10gp poiton of no see 2500gp and guess what all your gunners die =- The Smokepowder barrel is broken down to about 200 "pinches" per gunner (about 2 pinches Smoke powder to launch 1 bullet) and the gunners would be keeping thier share of powder in powder horns or tins so "blowing everyone up" is a little on the difficult side. A single gunner might take 12HP damage maxmum (2d6) if his smokepowder horn/tin was somehow breeched and set off and it would be a more of a localized "POOOF" over a "KABOOM" cause the horn or tin would take most of the impact of the "flare up" |
| The WarOverlord08-30-07, 03:40 PM | No. One likely dies, or is severely injured, and others may be injured if you have them in a close line in the Swedish style. In any case, one gun exploding will not result in all 500 gunners dying. To the cost issue, I agree that the costs assumed for the knight are a little extreme. Go look at the Arms and Equiptment Guide (I used the 2nd eddition "Blue book" one) and see the Prices are based on D&D's standard price list Also remember that the Knights are nobility, though I didn't take the cost of Banners, pinnicals, or guilding and "extras" to the Armor and Arms. In any case the Local lord chooses to field 10 Knights or 5000 Gunners and they are not choosing to field themselves...lol. TO most Lords/Leaders more men on the field outweighs the quiltity of the soldiers Off all the "And the Gunners die" post here the obvious one missed is that 10 Knights marching into 5000 Gunners wearing their Full Plate and carrying Steel Shields to make a "Turtle" formation will make it well into the Gunners line as Full Plate IS "Bullet Proof".....they then can use Maces or their Poleaxes to make quick work of the fleeing and panicked Gunners much like they would of the Archer Lines they would traditionally break into as they are no match for Armored Knights in Mele |
| capnvan08-31-07, 04:26 AM | Off all the "And the Gunners die" post here the obvious one missed is that 10 Knights marching into 5000 Gunners wearing their Full Plate and carrying Steel Shields to make a "Turtle" formation will make it well into the Gunners line as Full Plate IS "Bullet Proof".....they then can use Maces or their Poleaxes to make quick work of the fleeing and panicked Gunners much like they would of the Archer Lines they would traditionally break into as they are no match for Armored Knights in Mele Avast! I fear I come late to the argument, but... Y'arrr.. there be very little that's "bulletproof." There was no plate armor that was bulletproof. Bullet-resistant, sure. At any significant distance, plate armor would generally be able to withstand the impact of an early firearm. However, as the range decreases, the energy of the shot increases, until, at close range, or, in this case, point blank range, there is no plate armor ever devised that could withstand an arquebus. This is, of course, to ignore the effect all of that kinetic energy would have on the poor target. Taking this somewhat absurd example, and accepting even awful luck, let's say that 5% of the first volley strikes these 10 knights. That's still an average of 2.5 rounds each. Now, those bullets may not pierce the armor at that range, but the occupants of that armor are still going to suffer the adverse effects of those impacts. At close enough range, even failing to pierce the armor will still transfer enough kinetic energy to the knight to at least temporarily disable him. Certainly long enough for the inevitable. Because, let's face it, this is an absurd situation. This isn't some massive cavalry charge overrunning a position of a few unreinforced archers. This is 10 guys charging an army of 500. They're outnumbered 50 to 1. Even offering the somewhat ludicrous proposition that they'd make it to the lines, how long would it be before they're grappled by, oh, say 10 guys each, while 1 grabs a rock and proceeds to bash them insensible? Or just give them multiple atomic wedgies? I might have given you 5 to 1 odds. But 50 to 1? Quantity has a quality all its own, after all. |
| EndVision09-01-07, 01:14 AM | Also, it should be noted that the cost comparisons are incorrect. It depends on where exactly you are getting your knights, but generally the knights supply their own gear, so it isn't a local lord having to pay for anything, so much as it is he trades fealty for the right to control some land. That being said, the cost comparison is 1 knight = 0 gold, and policing of his controlled land. Your 500 gunners still cost 46,500 though. The difference really is that guns are a) simple while the training to use a sword is not b) simpler in physics than a longbow ( you don't have to aim up to get your bullets to land where you want.) |
| dragonheart09-01-07, 11:01 PM | whether the cost is born by hte lord or the knight its not 0 - all that armor and those weapons and other gear cost SOMEONE a lot of money! the advantage the knight has is that he gets a share of the value of the crops on the land he patrols and can sell most of it to get the money (or the lord can if he keeps no knights). so its question of which way does the lord pay less - having no knights and keeping the value of the lands then spending some of it on smokepowder, weapons and minimal training of the peasants or turnign it over to a bunch of knights who have to use it to pay for their own weapons etc. overall it proved cheaper to skip the knights and directly arm the peasants wihty guns in the real world - and it is certainly no more expensive to do it this way by game rules - the problem lies with the question - whic is cheaper - knights?, guns? or magic? In the FR the correct answer is magic and a trained and experienced knight (ie medium to high level fighter type) has a lot better chance against a mage than a bunch of peasants with guns. |
| The WarOverlord09-03-07, 09:44 AM | Avast! I fear I come late to the argument, but... Y'arrr.. there be very little that's "bulletproof." There was no plate armor that was bulletproof. Bullet-resistant, sure. At any significant distance, plate armor would generally be able to withstand the impact of an early firearm. However, as the range decreases, the energy of the shot increases, until, at close range, or, in this case, point blank range, there is no plate armor ever devised that could withstand an arquebus. This is, of course, to ignore the effect all of that kinetic energy would have on the poor target. Taking this somewhat absurd example, and accepting even awful luck, let's say that 5% of the first volley strikes these 10 knights. That's still an average of 2.5 rounds each. Now, those bullets may not pierce the armor at that range, but the occupants of that armor are still going to suffer the adverse effects of those impacts. At close enough range, even failing to pierce the armor will still transfer enough kinetic energy to the knight to at least temporarily disable him. Certainly long enough for the inevitable. Because, let's face it, this is an absurd situation. This isn't some massive cavalry charge overrunning a position of a few unreinforced archers. This is 10 guys charging an army of 500. They're outnumbered 50 to 1. Even offering the somewhat ludicrous proposition that they'd make it to the lines, how long would it be before they're grappled by, oh, say 10 guys each, while 1 grabs a rock and proceeds to bash them insensible? Or just give them multiple atomic wedgies? I might have given you 5 to 1 odds. But 50 to 1? Quantity has a quality all its own, after all. I am not talking about the tin foil junk worn at Renisance Fairs or light infantry Plate. Knight's Plate was in fact shot by the Armorer with a gun at point blank range and the dent polished out as a sign of Quality and Solomonic Full Plate was so fluted to increase it's streghth and so angled to increase the chance of ricache that it also was "Bullet proof" Likewise Men at arms could get "bullet proof" plate Mail which cost twice as much as Plate cause it basically was just twice as thich though the weight hampered movement twice as much Oh and a fully Armored Knight was basically a medieval Tank so unless the gunners have something a little more "owie" causing then rocks bull rushing a Knight would be the last thing they do. Maybe two handed Warhammers in the 50 to 1 odds, but the gunners have only short swords by tradition and getting a short sword into a fuul plate soft spot before the wearer kills you is a sticky business. Oh, and lastly, Early guns didn't always have lead shot but even then going though a metal shild then quility full plate was iffy until point blank range and by then the gunner in dead |
| capnvan09-05-07, 04:23 PM | I am not talking about the tin foil junk worn at Renisance Fairs or light infantry Plate. Knight's Plate was in fact shot by the Armorer with a gun at point blank range and the dent polished out as a sign of Quality and Solomonic Full Plate was so fluted to increase it's streghth and so angled to increase the chance of ricache that it also was "Bullet proof" WarOverlord, I'm not sure where you're getting your data, so let me offer mine: From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armour_types): "The full suits of armour, or breast plates actually stopped bullets fired from a modest distance. The front breast plates were, in fact, commonly shot as a test. The impact point would often be encircled with engraving to point it out. This was called the "proof". It was not uncommon for a man in armour, mounted on a horse, to ride up closer to the enemy, wheel in a tactical manoeuvre called a caracole, and discharge his hand-cannon or later, pistols, right into the faces of the adversary at close range. Cross-bow arrows, if still used, would seldom penetrate good plate, nor would any bullet unless fired from close range." [Emphasis added] So, yes, in most cases, as I pointed out earlier, indeed, full plate armor is effective at stopping early bullets. However, as you approach point blank range, even the most advanced of plate armor can and was regularly penetrated by early firearms. Regardless, my point here can also be covered under: "By its apex, toughened steel plate was almost impregnable on the battlefield. Knights were instead increasingly felled by blunt weapons such as maces or war hammers that could send concussive force through the plate armour resulting in injuries such as broken bones, organ haemorrhage and/or head trauma. Another tactic was to attempt to strike though the gaps between the armour pieces, using daggers to attack the Knight's eyes or joints." Again, in your scenario, even knights in full plate would be easily defeated by the massive numbers of "peasants." They'd simply flank, grapple, and proceed to either beat the knights into submission, or bleed them slowly to death. |
| AffableDoomwalker10-01-07, 09:29 AM | Late to this party, I am, but regardless, inspired, was I, partly by capnvan. So I got to thinking, and I thought to myself I did: "France, known for its knights and cavalry!" Right? So.. after reading this, I decided, considering the only two ways to really test this theory out was to either a) Run the scenario in D&D. (NOT) b) Boot up Medieval II, run a "single battle" game, get a group of 20-someodd French nobles in the best armor available then line up 500 someodd of the weakest gunpowder units available late period - arquebusiers - and watch the fireworks. (DING) Well, suffice it to say, Frederique d'Argonnes, King of France was the last of his line. So were his 20-someodd buddies. Well, maybe not, some might have procreated. Play by play: Battle starts, the knights assemble and charge... Soldiers move into a double line formation (this takes a while, because there are roughly 500 of them)... Knights continue to charge... Soldiers are still arraying themselves for battle... Charging... Lined up, sadly, only about 1/3rd of the soldiers will be able to shoot, as the knights are charging dead-center, and the line is so large... Charging... The Arquebusiers' status has changed to "taking aim"... The knights have closed in to nearly 120 feet of the line... *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* Repeat a few more times, as above... The four and a half knights who aren't dead yet are now fleeing in terror, as morale has dropped severely... *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* Scratch that, one knight... Battle ends with a single knight managing to ride out on the horse he rode in on, reported casualties on the opposition are 17 dead (including the enemy general), 3 wounded, 1 escaped; no casualties of note on the friendly side. So, if we apply logic, common sense, and the general rule of thumb that no matter what sort of protection you have: there's always a kink in your armor that roughly 170 rifles (pointed straight at you) may just (maybe) be able to exploit. Of course, you can say its +2 Fortified Adamantine Full Plate. Yippie skippy, you're still dead if you charge that wall of funguns. Lets not even get started on critical hits, magical assistance (on either side), the fact that even with a increased number of knights and a decreased number of rifles fired it was still a total wipeout, or the morale factor (especially not for the knights). |
| The WarOverlord10-07-07, 01:26 AM | Late to this party, I am, but regardless, inspired, was I, partly by capnvan. So I got to thinking, and I thought to myself I did: "France, known for its knights and cavalry!" Right? So.. after reading this, I decided, considering the only two ways to really test this theory out was to either a) Run the scenario in D&D. (NOT) b) Boot up Medieval II, run a "single battle" game, get a group of 20-someodd French nobles in the best armor available then line up 500 someodd of the weakest gunpowder units available late period - arquebusiers - and watch the fireworks. (DING) Well, suffice it to say, Frederique d'Argonnes, King of France was the last of his line. So were his 20-someodd buddies. Well, maybe not, some might have procreated. Play by play: Battle starts, the knights assemble and charge... Soldiers move into a double line formation (this takes a while, because there are roughly 500 of them)... Knights continue to charge... Soldiers are still arraying themselves for battle... Charging... Lined up, sadly, only about 1/3rd of the soldiers will be able to shoot, as the knights are charging dead-center, and the line is so large... Charging... The Arquebusiers' status has changed to "taking aim"... The knights have closed in to nearly 120 feet of the line... *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* Repeat a few more times, as above... The four and a half knights who aren't dead yet are now fleeing in terror, as morale has dropped severely... *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* *bang**bang**bang**bang**bang**bang* Scratch that, one knight... Battle ends with a single knight managing to ride out on the horse he rode in on, reported casualties on the opposition are 17 dead (including the enemy general), 3 wounded, 1 escaped; no casualties of note on the friendly side. So, if we apply logic, common sense, and the general rule of thumb that no matter what sort of protection you have: there's always a kink in your armor that roughly 170 rifles (pointed straight at you) may just (maybe) be able to exploit. Of course, you can say its +2 Fortified Adamantine Full Plate. Yippie skippy, you're still dead if you charge that wall of funguns. Lets not even get started on critical hits, magical assistance (on either side), the fact that even with a increased number of knights and a decreased number of rifles fired it was still a total wipeout, or the morale factor (especially not for the knights). But this IS D&D so you think anyone willing to field 20 kinghts against 500 Infantry using modern Speed guns and modern speed bullets wouldn't use any D&D magical advantage to them? 1) The 20 Knights could have "protection from Missles" rings added to their Armaments....game over for the Gunners once the Knight reach them 2) Their sponsers are Mage Maidens that causes the Armor to act as a "Globe of Invunrability" when hit...Game over for the Gunners 3) The Knights get Ancient Dragon Scale Armor +7 30 Soak the day before from same such Mage Maidens...Game over for Gunners 4) Knights Quaff Potions of haste follow by potions of Invisibility before charging in....Game over for Gunners Also the Type of Knights we are talking about here matter as Well If they are the Type that can cast Cerical Spells themselves then casting a spell to bring a rainstorm to drench the Gunners, their powder, and their slow matches is a tactic...as would be sending Summoned Water Elementals into go "kiss the guns" And Switching to the "Dark Side" if the 20 Charging Knights are "Death Knights" bullets rattling in their rib Cages are just a minor inconvienence and once they get close enough they will summon Lava, and Metor Storms and raise the fallen Gunners as Undead flunkies that will start using their guns on former allies <THE END> As far as the Gunners? Well the Idea is to field as much men as possible for the least amount of money but you only HEAR of Guns of Accuracy and Gun +1 (attack bonus only) but considering a gun is stilll a relatively exotic weapon on it's own and only considered magical cause of the Smokwpowder it uses there is little chance of a gun being overehnchanted and handed over to a slararied Grunt. Likewise as fast as the bullets travel they are "Missles" that can be defeated by + to Hit Hides, Spells like Globe of Invunrability, and the simple fact that a bullet can't hurt a ghost or like creatures without further enchantment....and agian as a mass issued salaried grunt weapon only the insane would put highly enchanted bullets in the hands of conscripts that may not know what the hell to do with them High Magic is Nobility and Adventurer stuff, not stuff commonly passed out to hirelings or peasents so while it is possible to have 20 Knights wearing Special gear into battle agains a hirling Army it is unlikely that any of those 0 Level Gunners, which are professional soldiers, will have Bullets of breaching (2500gp per bullet), Bullets of Disjuction (24000gp per bullet) when their salary is 6gp a week and their Lord spent 500gp just to issue them a gun And Lastly, don't depend on Medieval II to give a accurate simulation as "everyone knows Guns can kill Knights and thats why they became Obsolete"...lol 500 years ago everyone knew the world was flat and 20 years ago everyone knew that Tyrannosaurus Rex walked erect like Godzilla....lol |
| capnvan10-09-07, 04:26 PM | I've been drinking while visiting these forums, so I'll assume that you were, too. Yep. If you apply magic to the scenario, the results change. Of course, if you're applying magic to "your" side, so can "we." The point being, in your original scenario, there were certain results. When you change the terms of that origianl scenario, the results change. Nonetheless, if there is equal magic on both sides, the outcome is unlikely to change. |
| Keahi1910-10-07, 05:05 PM | Ok I am a Gond fan and therefore someone who uses smokepowder weapons in my RP. Or I did in my last one. And there are a few things you are missing here in your ideals. 1. Yeah lets leave this magic free as those who can field magic normally fight against those who can field magic, and therefore lets deal with pure tactics, not some strange mix of spells that would be so expensive that the handful of knights would be the entire army. Those spells you list are expensive if you keep adding them up. Most people beyond adventurer can't afford that. It'd bankrupt a nation. ANyways, onto other things. 2. Tactics of a matchlock gun is to field a line of fire with a group of pikemen in front. THis allows a defense of soldiers so that the charging cavarly knights are stopped. A horse no matter how much you try will not charge itself onto a pike or spear. THis allows a mobile defense and allows the musketeers to fire without being overwhelmed by sure numbers. 3. The musket or smokepowder arm, as its called in D&D, is not a matchlock. I've seen pictures published by the company that didn't make it into the book. It looks more like a Brown Bess musket of the British Army in the 18th and 17th centuries. It's a flintlock, not a a matchlock. FOr this set of pictures I'll have to get a friend to resend me where it was. 4. Rifling is about to come into invention. If a musket was made, then the rifle isn't far off. Sure it's for target shooting and it's extremelly slow to reload, but it's more accurate and has alot more stopping power. 5. In relation to expense. Yes it might be a little less expensive to get a group of gunners to a knight, but lets look at speed of training. A knight needs to be trained from the age of 6 to the age of 15. That's 9 years. I can train a single gunner in a matter of weeks. That's why it overceded everything else. Gunnery is alot quicker to train. So while I can replace my casualties in a matter of week, the knights can't replace there's for 9 years. 6. The wonderful oddities of the gun. The Fergurson Rifle can't be too far off as the bow and sword cna only be played with so much before it's done. The gun can be done over and over again. 7. I've gotten a musket before and found that there are actually quite a few spells that can be added onto it. Spells that say "Ranged Weapon Only" but do not state it can only be a crossbow or bow. Guess what? They can be added to a gun. There is nothing that says that they can't and therefore you can really trip out a musket with some nasty spells. (I did it, it was great.) 8. This ones a question, what was the point of this debate anyways? I have a history degree so I had to add some mixture of points, but what was the point? It's not like the D&D is going to change to D20 Modern anytime soon. |
| meto3010-12-07, 11:24 AM | I personally would love seeing knights marching into volleys of gunfire, but I don't think this argument is much use. If I assume correctly, PCs will never don armor, mount warhorse and charge straight into 500-strong musketry line. But for safety, I'll give gun bullets bludgeoning and piercing damage, and give firearms fear effect with DC 10 at 150 feet and DC 20 at 70 feet and DC 30 at 30 feet, applied every time a volley is fired. This takes effect whenever more than 15 guns are involved. This is sure to prevent most PCs from considering a full-blown charge. And even if Knights could survive gunfire, any sensible tactician would deem it stupid to risk loosing those knights to peasant musketry. I, for myself, would approach from multiple sides so en masse volley is useless, and add like 20 longbowmen firing at the musket formation to distract the gunners. No unit is invincible in face of superior tactics. And the idea of killing PCs with mass gunnery fire troubles me. That's cruel! |
| Keahi1910-12-07, 11:34 AM | I ****** off my DM once that way. Heros of Battle allows for volley fire with arrows. Well you can do it with muskets too. And only one roll has to be made. So it's simpler. Well we were fighting against a group of Orcs. I'd brought about 20 of my musketters with me and had them fire volley fire. Well with volley fire the enemy gets a reflex save. To say that they failed was an understatement. With one roll I killed all the Orcs. Their illithid controller wasn't pleased and tried to shiv me while invisibile. That was a fun fight. |
| Karsus the Mad10-12-07, 11:41 AM | And you don't need to be a mage either, you just need to know Alchemy. Now, in the RAW, usually that means you have to be a mage just to take Alchemy, but in Kara-Tur, non-mages make the stuff. In Magic of Faerun , to make smokepowder you need the Craft Wondrous Item feat, which requires you be at least a 3rd level spellcaster. |
| Keahi1910-12-07, 11:44 AM | Of course smokepowder doesn't need magic to use it. That's the weird thing. It doesn't have a spell attributed to it. I guess it's so odd that you need to have some Craft Wonderous Item stuff. Or it's a gameplay thing to keep it from being widespread. Or it's like gunpowder, whose secret of making it was kept to specific artisans. |
| MarkusTay6310-12-07, 04:56 PM | In Magic of Faerun , to make smokepowder you need the Craft Wondrous Item feat, which requires you be at least a 3rd level spellcaster.You could have a Shou Alchemist with either the Adept or Expert NPC class. Flavor-wise, I would have him be an Shou Expert (Fireworks) and allow the Feat, or a Shou Adept (Alchemist) that could whip up a couple of magical concoctions. Either way, you are correct about the level, but there are ways to get around being a spell caster. Fireworks using Smokepowder are common in Kara-Tur, hence the ruling on the specialized expert class. In fact, I used the Illuminator's Guild from WoT - a very secretive organization that kills members who try to leave. Nothing wrong with Fireworks in fantasy - even Gandalf used 'em. ;) I wouldn't use Gunpowder AT ALL - even though that rules quote you found leaves it up to the DM (isn't everything, anyway?), it interferes with the ruling in Spelljammer. As much as I dislike Spelljammer in my FR, it is part of the canon history and therefore I feel it's rules should remain intact. But thats just my opinion, so do whatever floats your boat. :D |
| Karsus the Mad10-12-07, 09:15 PM | You could have a Shou Alchemist with either the Adept or Expert NPC class. Flavor-wise, I would have him be an Shou Expert (Fireworks) and allow the Feat, or a Shou Adept (Alchemist) that could whip up a couple of magical concoctions. I'm not aware of such a thing as Shou Alchemist or Expert? Enlighten me. Either way, you are correct about the level, but there are ways to get around being a spell caster. Fireworks using Smokepowder are common in Kara-Tur, hence the ruling on the specialized expert class. ?Like the above, you've lost me:P I'm ignorant of any ruling. I wouldn't use Gunpowder AT ALL - even though that rules quote you found leaves it up to the DM (isn't everything, anyway?), it interferes with the ruling in Spelljammer. As much as I dislike Spelljammer in my FR, it is part of the canon history and therefore I feel it's rules should remain intact. Well, that useless rules qoute was before Spelljammer (It IS useless....I think they just need to fill a paragraph....First, the setting itself suggests a low-tech scenario, thus it's a waste of space to point it out. Second, If a DM desires it, despite the nature of the setting, he's going to ignore the paragraph anyway, thus it's a waste of space to point out.) ;) I use it only for the absolutist "no tech" crowd. I had too many Realms Loremasters tell me "such and such can't work cuz it's against the physics" and get crappy with me whenever I argued. Oddly, they've ALL refused (and still refuse) to give the actual quote I give (all three still won't provide any qoutes for anything they profess!). Meh....Prolly because it's not nearly as absolute as they would like it to be. But thats just my opinion, so do whatever floats your boat. :D I'm a DM with a brain. I always do what floats my boat;) |
| GoldDragon10-12-07, 11:40 PM | Of course smokepowder doesn't need magic to use it. That's the weird thing. It doesn't have a spell attributed to it. I guess it's so odd that you need to have some Craft Wonderous Item stuff. Or it's a gameplay thing to keep it from being widespread. Or it's like gunpowder, whose secret of making it was kept to specific artisans. All Classical Gunpowder is is Salt Peter, Charcoal, and Sulfuric Ash. it's unstable, useless if it gets damp or wet, and cruds up your gun and creates unburned powder clouds all over which could cause a flash explosion. (And lets remember Ed Green says it doesn't work in Forgotten Realms) Smoke Powder is Hedge Wizard Alchemy, and includes what would be nonsensical stuff like beholder eyes (disitegrate), mummy dust, powdered alicorn,crystlized black pudding,Mind flayer Ichor, and nails from a Lich along with procedures that mimic making ink for magic scrolls or making a clone. |
| MarkusTay6310-13-07, 12:35 AM | The Expert and Adept classes are NPC classes found in the DMG, and can be fitted into any niche a DM desires. The 'Alchemist' Adept and 'Fireworks' Expert were just two variants I can come up with based on those classes, that fit into what we know about Kara-Tur (The use and manufacture of Smokpowder for Fireworks is documented). We also have two totally different kinds of explosive used in Bombards, depending on what sources you read. I would definately say that the Thayan liqued is magical in nature and cannot be made by anyone other then a Red Wizard (or any wizard, if he somehow acquired the formula). The actual quote that says you CANNOT use Gunpowder in FR is in the Realmspace supplement - a Spelljammer product. It specifically states that it cannot be manufactured in Realmspace, and any brought in from outside becomes inert. It also goes on to say that Spacefarers can use Smokepowder in their Gunpowder weapons while in Realmspace, which indicates to me that the two are interchangeable. Also, As far as anyone knows, Smokepowder does NOT work outside of Realmspace. It would be interesting, I suppose, to find a world where both worked. I was going to write a short story once for Dragon Magazine, back before I found out they do not accept unsolicited fiction. It would be about a group of Zhents in the North importing crates of M-16's from our world (a corrupt general was selling them to them). Anyhow, Khelben finds out and spies on them, and summons Elminster to his side, since El is considered an expert on things from our world. El tells him to "just watch", and when they try to fire the weapons the entire camp goes BOOM!!! You see, when I first found out that Gunpowder didn't work in FR, I thought it was because it was unstable (hence, the explosion). Then I found out it simply becomes inert, and it ruined all my fun. :( |
| GoldDragon10-13-07, 04:17 AM | The actual quote that says you CANNOT use Gunpowder in FR is in the Realmspace supplement - a Spelljammer product. It specifically states that it cannot be manufactured in Realmspace, and any brought in from outside becomes inert. It also goes on to say that Spacefarers can use Smokepowder in their Gunpowder weapons while in Realmspace, which indicates to me that the two are interchangeable. The weapons and devices that use Smokepowder or Gunpowser can use either. Between the 2 I would opt for the Smokepowder as it is a little more stable then Gynpowder and burns completely without residue as a "magical substance" set of fire Also, As far as anyone knows, Smokepowder does NOT work outside of Realmspace. It would be interesting, I suppose, to find a world where both worked. Um, Smokepowder is a Gondish thing so it is understandable that it wouldn't work anywhere without "his blessing". Likewise if you go through enough D&D resources there is a phenominum simular to the Mystra and Magic governing thing with Technology in most worlds were there are gods governning such things.....so it is likely the the reason that Gunpowder doesn't work in Forgotten Realms and Smokepowder does work only in the Forgotten Realms is because there is a god of Technology that actually allows and disallows how technology can use natural forces. In fact like Mystra effects all "magic' even down to a Ghost's ability to walk through a wall or limit spell levels cast in the Realm, no doubt the god of knowledge and god of "wonders" limit and disallow technology they don't want working in the Realms (guessing that "Inert Gunpowder" wil become reactivated once you leave Realmspace and out of the influences of the "Wonder party pooper"?) You see, when I first found out that Gunpowder didn't work in FR, I thought it was because it was unstable (hence, the explosion). Then I found out it simply becomes inert, and it ruined all my fun. :( Damn you, "Wonder Party pooper" Wonder if you shoot your guns outside of Realmspace how long will it take for the bullets to reach Elminster's Hat to knock it off his head (Some High calculus sharp shooting mind you) |
| Karsus the Mad10-13-07, 07:40 AM | The Expert and Adept classes are NPC classes found in the DMG, and can be fitted into any niche a DM desires. The 'Alchemist' Adept and 'Fireworks' Expert were just two variants I can come up with based on those classes, that fit into what we know about Kara-Tur (The use and manufacture of Smokpowder for Fireworks is documented). Doi on me.:embarrass I thought you were talking about something from an actual Kara Tur book. Well, that should :teach: me not to try and read things while nodding off to sleep at the compy. Would also prevent me from drooling on my keyboard.:drool: We also have two totally different kinds of explosive used in Bombards, depending on what sources you read. I would definately say that the Thayan liqued is magical in nature and cannot be made by anyone other then a Red Wizard (or any wizard, if he somehow acquired the formula). In Unapproachable East, Thayan bombards use magic (no physical substance) to fire their projectiles. The requisite spell to create a bombard is levitate if I recall correctly. It used to be different in 2e. It would be about a group of Zhents in the North importing crates of M-16's from our world (a corrupt general was selling them to them). Anyhow, Khelben finds out and spies on them, and summons Elminster to his side, since El is considered an expert on things from our world. El tells him to "just watch", and when they try to fire the weapons the entire camp goes BOOM!!! hehehe. That sounds like El :P |
| GoldDragon10-14-07, 01:46 AM | In Unapproachable East, Thayan bombards use magic (no physical substance) to fire their projectiles. The requisite spell to create a bombard is levitate if I recall correctly. It used to be different in 2e. In FRCS 3RD addition it mentions the Thaynian Bombards using multiple barrels of Smoke powder as a "option". I think it is anything that will cause the thing to fire it's projectile is a "option" Even me, I feel that the debate of Gunpowder and smoke powder weapons is a little "focused" on what is not available or usable v.s. what you CAN do and the relative effects. Honestly, 10 people pointing these sticks at you then there is a rumbling bang sound with some smoke and you Maybe see something whizzing by you or you feel a sharp pain as the bullets hit you doesn't have the same Physiological effect as those same 10 people charging at you with 2 handed Axes, Battle Axes, or Great Axes swinging them wildly in the are and Screaming as they come toward you In fact we just past Columbus Day and one of the Problems that Columbus had in establishing his many Colonies in "the Indian Isles/Hispaniola" is that the Natives traditionally were Mele Combatants using two handed hardwood Clubs and they were not afraid of the "Boom Boom" sticks because if they were still standing after they went off they had enough time to get in close and bash the Gunner's head in before they could reload. All but one of Columbus' colonies fell to such fearless mele fighters even though the Colonists had the "better weapons" in Guns and Swords (which were easily snapped,disarmed,or blocked with the 2 handed clubs before the club was used to crush skulls,bash ribs, or break arms and legs) P.S. you have to remember that he was as far down as South America in his later Voyages to get past the Indian Ilse's and find a way through to India then China cause until his dying day he thought he made it to uncharted Ilse's outside of India....lol Also have you seen a Bullet compared to the size of an Arrow or a crossbow? (Or a Halberd being swung at your head?) As much as it hurts to be hit by a bullet, being hit by a Arrow or Cross-bolt hurts more...especially if the heads are barbed, jagged, long, toothed, or 6 to 7 inches long and 3 inches wide with shark teeth (But less then a Halberd hitting your head would..usually able to go right through even a Great Helm and through the head and neck, and usually logging in the collar bone from a full swing) And look at the more exotic tips for Composite Bows and Heavy Crossbows with there Ball and Chains, multi-pronged tips, or even a Grappling hook with chains and smaller grappling hooks and Even the "low tech" Crossbow and Composite bow can put a intended target more in a world of hurt then a mere bullet launched from a fancy weapon using a exotic means of hurling a bullet. But again, like the Thaynians, if we want weird launching weapons maybe try putting a small amount of Alchemist fire in the casing to launch the bullet? If we get more to the magical manipulations we can either cause a wind effect in the tube of the gun, a version of the reverse gravity effect in the firing mechanism, or a version of a repulsion spell on the pin that eventually touches the bullet. On the Gondish side steam tech works, as does pluming and clockwork tech so making a steam gun, clockwork Dynamo gun (think tennis ball launcher)l , a compressed air/gas gun, or even a flame thrower should work in Forgotten Realms. But then again I'll keep my trusty trusty +5 Great Axe and my ring of "Protection against missiles" over any "gun tech" any day....promise the called shot to your neck will make it quick though the head is alive up to 30 seconds after beheading so I can't guarantee "painless" |
| meto3010-14-07, 02:58 AM | The fear aspect of gunpowder weaponry can be divided into two kinds, the fear prior to knowing the weapon and fear posteriro to knowing the weapon. The crackling and booming of gunpowder weaponry is extremely loud, much louder than the sound of any melee weapon crushing armor. This, coupled with the dark smoke, inspired fear because they were so new. When men confront musketry lines for the first time, the immense roaring of a volley is terrefying. The problem is, a 14th level wizard casting fireball would cause more fear than 50 muskets fired at once. Besides, the flames do hurt a lot. The lethality of medieval gunnery is often overrated. However, it is true that these weapons will penetrate poor quality armor with little difficulty. Any armor lower in quality than chainmail would prove near useless against concentrated gunfire. The thudding and tearing of bullets make for gaping wounds, and unlike what most would like to believe, most such gunshot wounds are lethal, although not immediately fatal. Yes, a sword cleaving the head will do the work for sure, and much quicker, but 300 guns are much safer than 300 swords. You don't go melee. The problem is, again, that any magic used by a half-competent mage is far more deadlier and far more spectacular than guns. Oh, they're cheaper too. If I were to introduce guns to my DnD game, they would be the replacement for the crossbow, combining ease of fire of the light crossbow and firepower of the heavy crossbow. The easiness of gun manufacture compared to knight/mage training and quickness of gunnery practice make for a powerful militia force. If the king rides to war, have him accompanied by thousand strong peasant militia with two months training with muskets. Might not be his most decisive unit, but it sure will swing a lot of battles to the king's favor. And besides, professional training for like an year or so will turn the militia unit into a speciallized gunnery team that can take on any infantry unit. Giving the men training with bayonets will help, too. PS: If I were wielding a halberd and facing a musketeer, I'd be fearing for my life. Halberd might kick ass, but that musket can fire real long distances. Not that the musket is any accurate. This would be even truer if this was a large battle with a hundred halberds and a hundred muskets. Well, some of that rain of lead are bound to hit me before I reach them, right? PSS: Hardended veteran natives battling Columbus was a lot different. For once, number of musketeers onboard Columbus' fleet was near zero. Most of the colonial defenses were militia gunmen, and their numbers were few. The precision of the medieval musket implies that if the number of muskets involved does not grow beyond 50 or so, the weapon is rendered ineffective. There's a reason why Napoleonic formations are so densely populated. As if this was not enough, the veteran fighters were the elite of the native tribes, unlike ordinary units a musket formation is meant to face. Think of the difference between soldiers and adventurers in DnD. PSSS: Gunnery units are meant to face lightly armored infantry and support units. They are not meant to face knights and other heavy formations. Pikes are meant to face them. FINAL NOTE: Muskets are supposed to be deployed in massive numbers. 30 musketeers in a sparse line will be quickly cut down. Think of Admiral Custer and the so-called massacre at Little Bighorn. Indians did a superb raid, quick and decisive. They closed in forcing the cavalrymen to form a skirmish line along the ridge, immobilizing them, and surrounded the American formation. After that it was just matter of which axe fell first. Not to mention that Custer was being an idiot that day, in addition to his already farse-like refusal to bring along the Gatling gun that was issued to his unit. |
| GoldDragon10-14-07, 07:43 AM | PS: If I were wielding a halberd and facing a musketeer, I'd be fearing for my life. Halberd might kick ass, but that musket can fire real long distances. Not that the musket is any accurate. This would be even truer if this was a large battle with a hundred halberds and a hundred muskets. Well, some of that rain of lead are bound to hit me before I reach them, right? . Well no, Lot of people don't realize that guns pre-date Full Plate and Solomonic Armor or even the double thick Plate mail made in response to Guns and heavy crossbows on the Battle Field. But it was economical to field gunners and expensive and time consuming to field a nobel hide into a skin of armor that was effectively bullet proof. Short of magic such as a ring of Protection against Missles I wouldn't charge a gun formation with anything less then Heavy duty Plate Mail with a double hulled Helm (More like strut...the sucker is heavy) and would actually perfer a Knight's Pole Axe for taking care of the Gunners once in close And no, don't bother looking for bullet proof plate mail or double hulled helms in the D&D resources cause like everyone knew the earth was Flat 500 years ago, and the Sky was just a great tapastry 1500 years ago, Everyone that plays D&D knows that Guns are what made Knights Useless (even though guns predate the invention of Full Plate,Field Plate,Solomonic Plate, and Heavy Duty "bullet proof" plate mail in real History and the Fall of the "Classical Knight" was slow and there was Plate worn by nobility while in battle as late as the early 19th Century...along with Halberds and Pike Formations being seen in batlle as late as World War 1...lol) Another thing often forgotten as far as real History is that the use of primative single shot guns during the American Civil War was also a matter of government Economics because there were Pistols, repeating riffles, and even machine gun pistols availible...which reminds me, the Indians attacking Custard had repeating riffles which didn't help Custard in his last Stand either....lol |
| meto3010-14-07, 06:25 PM | And here I am reading another argument about "guns didn't kill knights" while I said nothing even close to "guns killed knights". I said precisely that "any armor of lower quality than chain mail would be near useless against concentrated gunfire". Does that mean, by some means, that knights would be slaughtered by guns? I believe what I imply is actually the opposite. I said Indians defeated Custer by tactical maneuver. Is your mention of the presence of guns in the Indian formation, which was a heavily outdated model and was used in short range in place of a shortbow instead of as its usual role as a long range volley weapon, an attempt to provide helpful information, or does it have something to do with what I said? Did Indians form up in a battle line and performed the triple line volley? If they did, then they must all be Ogres with d12 hit die. The pictures and information in the PHB and DMG indicate the DnD world already has armor that would be bulletproof if pitted against a gun. Why are you telling me not look for them when I already have them in my rulebook? Fall of knight armor was slow, yes. As you have said, armor was an effective protective tool until machine guns and catridge ammunition became widespread. But fall of the knight was slow? No. Knightly combat fell out of tactical superiority well before the fall of Constantinople, actually was beginning to fall since Agincourt. While armored men didn't die easily, the tactical need to field heavily armored cavalry units became more and more offset by their vulnerability and expense. FINALLY, I actually said the following. PSSS: Gunnery units are meant to face lightly armored infantry and support units. They are not meant to face knights and other heavy formations. Pikes are meant to face them. Did another Meto step into this thread and shouted "Knights are useless against guns"? I believe not. So, what is the point of your redundant post? |
| AffableDoomwalker10-15-07, 12:54 AM | Lets not even get started on critical hits, magical assistance (on either side), the fact that even with a increased number of knights and a decreased number of rifles fired it was still a total wipeout, or the morale factor (especially not for the knights). yadda yadda rah blah yippie skippy ha ha magic magic very tragic dakka dakka Frank Zappa And Lastly, don't depend on Medieval II to give a accurate simulation as "everyone knows Guns can kill Knights and thats why they became Obsolete"...lol 500 years ago everyone knew the world was flat and 20 years ago everyone knew that Tyrannosaurus Rex walked erect like Godzilla....lol Well, I already explained why we don't mention magic. because well... you know, "if you have it so do I (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14037381&postcount=26)" (and so on and so forth, eventually it balances out, and the scenario becomes the same game, with the same factors, on a new/better playing field, which of course, makes it pointless to even mention, which is why I didn't, but thanks for the insight regardless. As for "relying on medieval" I'm admittedly at a major disadvantage: I don't have 10-20 fully equipped and knights, nor do I possess 500 fully equipped and trained professional soldiers. I do, however, live on the great plains, and the harvest is going on strong; if you'd like to provide me with the necessary materials and manpower (that means a little over 700 persons and a handful of horses all willing to die) to properly go about the test, I can readily provide you with a variety of flat terrain in which to field them. Until such a time as you are able/willing to provide me with the resources necessary to perform a live test, I'll just stick to Medieval II, thanks :) |
| Karsus the Mad10-15-07, 10:15 AM | On the Gondish side steam tech works, as does pluming and clockwork tech so making a steam gun, clockwork Dynamo gun (think tennis ball launcher)l , a compressed air/gas gun, or even a flame thrower should work in Forgotten Realms. One of my npcs uses chardalyn stones imbued with gust of wind to fire other chardalyn stones imbued with spells like fireball and chain lightning. Far more devastating than regular firearms. |
| Keahi1910-15-07, 03:17 PM | But soon the magic of FR will disappear and weapons will be all ya got. Smokepowder goes by different rules and therefore it seems they will still be useful. And like I said (And it seems no one noticed) you facilitate pikeman and musketeers together. Until the invention of the bayonet, musketeers and pikemen fought as a single unit in the Swiss fashion. Also the reason Columbus's men were hurt (Though if you listen to the casaulties, the Spainards killed more Indians than they lost. They lost 3 or 4 and killed 10 Indians.) is because it was close combat. In jungle firearms have problems if they are not repeating. Especcially the wet weather with black powder. But, it's the same for knights, if they'd put knights there it would have been the same problem. Also they were in someone elses territory. It's much harder when you are fighting on someone elses turf. |
| Karsus the Mad10-15-07, 08:32 PM | But soon the magic of FR will disappear and weapons will be all ya got. Not in my FR:P I don't allow mechanics to dictate story or lore in my games. If WotC wants to create needless in-game reasons (in the form of RSE's) for out-of-game changes, that's their perogative and it doesn't concern me in the least. Smokepowder goes by different rules and therefore it seems they will still be useful. It's a magical substance. If the rules of magic change, smokepowder, being a magical substance, also changes. The effect* of smoke powder won't change, but then again the effect** of Fireball doesn't change either, regardless of rules edition or changes in magic. *it causes an explosion; usually used in small amounts to propel a bullet. ** it causes a large explosion. |
| GoldDragon10-17-07, 10:02 AM | As for "relying on medieval" I'm admittedly at a major disadvantage: I don't have 10-20 fully equipped and knights, nor do I possess 500 fully equipped and trained professional soldiers. I do, however, live on the great plains, and the harvest is going on strong; if you'd like to provide me with the necessary materials and manpower (that means a little over 700 persons and a handful of horses all willing to die) to properly go about the test, I can readily provide you with a variety of flat terrain in which to field them. Until such a time as you are able/willing to provide me with the resources necessary to perform a live test, I'll just stick to Medieval II, thanks :) Oh, I am trying to get my hands on various armors and guns of the time period and will put the live ammunition fire test on youtube. Don't worry, as sure as I won't use the Rennisance fair crap/decrotive armor, the Armor will be filled will balistic gel dummies wearing the padding, chain mail, reinforcement plates, and armor that real knights wore when facing Crossbowben and gunners to see just how many bulles get through Plate Mail that was invented in turn to guns and crossbows that was on the field up to 200 years before Plate mail in some cultures I mean, I wouldn't run directly into 500 guns firing or even 50...better strategy would be to flank them and mow them down from the rear the same way you would mow down archers or crossbowmen And in truth it depends on the type of guns and time period related as far as when Armor comes useless. Plate mail and even Field Plate and Full Plate are at least 1/8 thick and while Early guns couldn't get through them as they were developed in respoinse to crossbows in late 1500, and when guns and Heavy crossbows came into the field the Armororer added carbon and oxegen to change their iron Armor to Steel Armor in the mid 1600 to mostly stop the more dangerous of the 2, the Heavy Crossbolt, that could fire a bolt with as much impact as a 357 magnum (which despite the "dirty Harry" movies doens't really mean much) In respose to "Bullet Proof" Solomonic Plate and Plate Mail and Full Plate and Field Plate the first "anti-tank" weapon that was developed was the Musket in the late 1600s....at 6 feet long with a weight of about 20 lb it really could pack a wallop and blow a hole though the "bullet proof" plate. And the Clint eastwood thing about using a furnace door as a "bullet proof vest" was probably inspired by a bank robbing gang that wore armor to be able to gun fight and they were successful until they were outnumbered and the gun fight took so long that they got tired tried to wobble away and gun fighting cause the things weighed hundreds of pounds and eventually the Law got a lucky shot in the head to one guy and wounded the others in the unarmored part of the legs. And to say Armor outlived it's usefullnes is also silly cause instead of Knights on Horse back we have Tanks and Humvees, and instead of Steel Clad soldiers we have soldiers wearing high tech composites like interwoven fabric composite, ceramic composite, glass composite, and even magnetic compresion gel armor that is light and fluid in the normal state but turns harder then steel when impacted with a bullet thus displacing the force and removing the blunt truama effect Favorite of all time at the moment of modern Armor technology is what they call "Dragon Scale" armor which is really light and flexible and can stop a high powered sniper rifle bullet with no blunt truama despite it being among the thinnest armors now availible. THink it's some kind of plastic/silicone composite Even in World war I Iron plates had it's usefulness in BOmber crews in flight suits known as "flak Jackets" considering that the Flying fortresses were as about as armored as a tin can...lol (and History will show that most crews of the B17 survived all the bullets ripping through the plane but usually the main cause of loss was the B17 ran out of fuel before it made it back home, or it just had to many bullet holes in it to fly anymore) |
| GoldDragon10-24-07, 08:27 AM | b) Boot up Medieval II, run a "single battle" game, get a group of 20-someodd French nobles in the best armor available then line up 500 someodd of the weakest gunpowder units available late period - arquebusiers - and watch the fireworks. (DING) . Heh,heh missed that little detail of French Knights in Chain Mail against early guns....no wonder they lost. Guns more or less how we know them nowadays were in the Battle Field as early as 1066 AD depending on culture and as they became more popular Infantry and Calvary and Nobility tried to protect themselves from not only guns but Crossbows thus came the Plate Mail made of Iron So Hand cannons, and early Slow match guns cannot get through anything more then Chain Mail. Gun Developments in the 15th century made guns more powerful and easier to use so Flintlock guns of late 15th century CAN blow through Iron Plate mails but note that this is 500 years after the first guns while D&D and especially Forgotten Realms have only had gun tech for about 30 years That is when Armorers invented Steel Armor buy changing the composition of their Iron which made all guns before the Musket unable to Penetrate Plate Mail The Musket is 6 feet long,20 lb in weight and was made specifically to blow through the Armor of Plate Mailed infantry, Calvary, and Nobles(which pretty much started the Leaders commanding from 25 millers behind the lines...lol) Guns were cheap and didn't require much specialized training while Steel Armor was expensive and now useless against muskets at 1/8-1/4 inch and weighed too much to move once you reached a thickness that could stop a Musket ball so multiple Guns were favored to a few "walking Tanks/sitting ducks"...lol Therefore in the Forgotten Realms, if you follow the real world time line, Muskets that can blow through Plate mail are 600 years in the future and any guns in the Forgotten Realms shouldn't be able to blow through Plate mail, Field Plate,Full Plate, or Solomonic Plate (fluted plate meant to deflect Musket bullets and heavy crossbow bolts but are 3 times more expensive then Full Plate and a Dead on hit will still penetrate...about a 50/50 chance) |
| Karsus the Mad10-24-07, 02:46 PM | Therefore in the Forgotten Realms, if you follow the real world time line, Muskets that can blow through Plate mail are 600 years in the future and any guns in the Forgotten Realms shouldn't be able to blow through Plate mail That's somewhat erroneous tho'. Our real world time line is rather moot when it comes to gods and their effect on the world. Gond came down to Lantan and said "Thanks for saving my divine butt. Here's something nifty. This is how you use it." FR never had to go through centuries of experimentation and failure to reach the state of firearm technology it has. It was given to them lock, stock, and barrel by the deity who holds dominion over it. |
| Another Gnome10-26-07, 10:29 AM | And then Gond spaketh, "Oh, by the way, did I already mention these babies still count as everyday weapons for all intent and purposes?" And thus a +3 shock musket firing +1 brilliant energy bullets came to pass, and Gond beheld the gun, and it was good, if a bit noisy. |
| GoldDragon10-28-07, 07:30 AM | That's somewhat erroneous tho'. Our real world time line is rather moot when it comes to gods and their effect on the world. Gond came down to Lantan and said "Thanks for saving my divine butt. Here's something nifty. This is how you use it." FR never had to go through centuries of experimentation and failure to reach the state of firearm technology it has. It was given to them lock, stock, and barrel by the deity who holds dominion over it. Actually he gave them the secret of Smokepowder. That they figured out how to use the "Kaboom" the stuff makes for "practical purposes" is actually their own whimsy Real question is if all it does is go "KABOOM" compared to the various ratios of "black powder" that flared, to sparkle, to sizzling, to just going "poof" with a bright light allowing for all the fireworks abilities that "black powder" does including running simple machines via fire flywheel? |
| MarkusTay6310-28-07, 10:02 AM | Didn't HE actually create the first gunnes in the Avatar series? Or was that in Prince of Lies? (which is just book four of that series anyway). Either way, I rule that it is non-magical, and therefore non-mages can make it. The whole problem stems from the fact that you have to be a magic-user to get Alchemy. I would suggest that ANYONE with the Arcane Schooling feat should be able to take Alchemy, and then create a guild of 'Illuminators' ala WoT and give the Feat at first level to guild members (ie, experts). |
| GoldDragon10-30-07, 06:58 AM | Didn't HE actually create the first gunnes in the Avatar series? Or was that in Prince of Lies? (which is just book four of that series anyway). Either way, I rule that it is non-magical, and therefore non-mages can make it. The whole problem stems from the fact that you have to be a magic-user to get Alchemy. I would suggest that ANYONE with the Arcane Schooling feat should be able to take Alchemy, and then create a guild of 'Illuminators' ala WoT and give the Feat at first level to guild members (ie, experts). Well, he probably would have a gun like weapon or even bombs as Chinese wise the gods had the secret of gun powder and they would use such weird weapons on each other (Ancient art shows a demon firing a gun like weapon at one of the gods during a battle) and he wouldn't be carrying around such knowledge without a intended use...yes? Smokepowder is Pseudo-magical in that it works because Gond says so. With ingredients matching non sensical magical ink formulas rather then relying on actual chemestry or even Alchemy, the thing does in fact work by the "Grace of Gond" in the Forgotten Realms and doesn't work outside of the Realms much like Gunpowder Works Outside of the Forgotten Realms but doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms by Gond's censure. |
| Karsus the Mad10-30-07, 11:08 AM | Smokepowder requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat, thus it is magical, and requires a magically active character to create....it requires 9 ranks in Knowledge (alchemy), that some (such as expert) could get, but even an Expert with 9 ranks in Alchemy (Craft; alchemy in 3.5) cannot create it if he doesn't have at least 9 levels in a spellcasting class, which is also a requirement. |
| MarkusTay6310-30-07, 02:03 PM | Thats so prohibitive that it makes gun tech in FR useless. What mage at those levels is going to sit around and create Smokepowder? :confused: It might make sense for the Heartlands, but that makes NO sense for the East. You're telling me certain high-lev Wujen spend all their time manufacturing Smokepowder just for Fireworks? The only thing I can think of is that Gond's edicts do NOT apply in Kara-Tur. The problem with that is the K-T sources explicitly say that the Fireworks use Smokepowder, not gunpowder. However, immediately following the ToT, Thayans used Smokepowder in their bombards (check FRA). I would assume this was an experimental period, when they were trying to move away from the more unstable 'explosive liquid' they were using. I would also assume that they found Smokepowder limiting as well, and have since moved beyond it with their all-magical powered bombards (reconciling all 3 editions of rules). ;) So... if the Thayans made it, I would think they found away around Gond's edicts. I doubt ant priests of Gond would work with them, so they must have found an alternate method of producing the same substance WITHOUT requiring Gond's approval. Maybe the original version required divine (priestly) magic, but the Thayans were the ones to develop an Arcane alternative? The only way I can see this working for everything we know is that the Craft Wonderous Item Feat is only required for a small portion of the actual production of Smokepowder. ie, A mage with the Feat walks into a room with a bunch of the Raw material assembled and prepared, and he waves his hand and casts Pyrotechnics, and a bunch of is finished. This means it would require the Feat, but only for a small part of the operation, freeing the mage up to do other things. BTW, where are the 3e rules for Smokepowder? EDIT: Nevermind, found it in MoF; not very informative though. I would say it required the casting of Pyrotechnics to 'activate' its properties, and then allow 1 lb. per 2 Arcane caster levels of the assisting mage to complete. The rest of the time it takes to make and assemble can then be done by non-casters. |
| Karsus the Mad10-30-07, 08:16 PM | It might make sense for the Heartlands, but that makes NO sense for the East. You're telling me certain high-lev Wujen spend all their time manufacturing Smokepowder just for Fireworks? Actually, it makes some sense...some...not much mind you, but some. Afterall, Rasheman pretty much cloisters away their male wizards for the express purpose of creating magic items. Given the geographic location, it wouldn't be at all surprising that they picked up the practice from elsewhere (if Rasheman cloisters away male wizards for the express purpose of creating magic items, how "less" likely is it for a relatively nearby culture to do something similar for the express purpose of creating smokepowder?) ;) |
| meto3010-30-07, 08:36 PM | In RW China creation of fireworks was such an important task that the imperial throne imposed a monopoly on all fireworkds production. They are not 'show sight' as it seems, but actually holy machinations supposed to drive away malignant spirits. Emperors made sure noboy not authorized by them was making any gunpowder. Needless to say, this prohibition had practical reasons as well, since fireworks was a lucrative business that could be readily taxed, and gunpowder weaponry was dangerous too. The creation of gunpowder was such a closely guarded secret that the Korean scholar who smuggled the technology from China, Choi Moo-Suhn, is praised as one of the greatest heroes of our people's history. He is said to have bribed and threatned lot of technicians to learn the technology, wrote it down, hid the parchment iniside his pen, and risked his life to cross the border, because an order has been given from Beijing (China's capital was beijing at the time as well) to kill the man on sight. Since the Korean king made gunpowder public knowledge in its domain, the emperor of China demanded they keep it secret from Chinese people visiting Korea, at least. |
| Iakhovas10-31-07, 09:28 AM | The most updated 3.5 rules on the creating smokepowder exist in Stormwrack. These rules were reprinted in my Age of Sail article in Candlekeep Compendium IX: Smokepowder: Smokepowder is an expensive alchemical substance used to fire many types of firearms in the Realms. Smokepowder can be created by anyone with 9 ranks in Craft (alchemy). One pound of powder costs 25 gp; it takes 1 oz. to fire a pistol or musket, and 20 pounds to fire a Lantan Bombard. Lighter more recent versions of the Lantan Bombard require only 4 pounds of smokepowder to fire. |
| Purple Dragon Knight11-04-07, 11:52 AM | The Magic of Faerun errata said this: p. 152, Table 6-9, Minor Wondrous Items: Smokepowder: Change price from 25 gp to 16 gp. I've always gone with this pricing scheme, as there is 16 ounces in a pound, which makes individual smokepowder ounces worth 1gp each (much easier to figure out than 25gp/16...) |
| MarkusTay6311-09-07, 07:23 PM | So it cost you a Gold Piece every time you fire a weapon? :blink: That's ridiculous! BTW, Borders has an excellent tome on clearance right now - the Illustrated History of Weapons. (http://www.creativereaders.com/si/070925055.html) Besides being an excellent resource for D&D, there are some truly bizzare looking guns in there that would work well in a fantasy setting (like axe/gun combos and such). I got it for $7.99 - the price of a paperback novel! I'm planning on adapting some of the Indo-Persian weapons for the Utter East thread. :D |
| Purple Dragon Knight11-10-07, 05:10 PM | pretty cheap if you ask me... what's the cost of individual arrows? |
| GoldDragon11-11-07, 09:32 AM | pretty cheap if you ask me... what's the cost of individual arrows? 100 arrows for 1 gp Also note that without any enchantment to a Gun or to it's bullet a bullet fired from a gun won't: 1) Get pass damage reduction 2) + to hit hide like Demon Hide and Dragon hide 3) get through spells like minor globe of invunrability, the shield spell, or Globe of invunrabilitym, magical force effects, or spell that deflect missles in general such as "protection from missles" 4) Get through Iron Armor if it is less then a 15th Century style gun or get through Steel Plate if it is less then a 16th century Musket (about 500 years of gun tech development to go on Toril to get Musket grade weapons that don't go KABOOM!!! from the amount Smokepowder needed to reach that excelleration without destroying the gun and it's user) 5) Work against Ghosts. Zombies, vampires, lichs, Werewolves, or avatars All in all a gun is just a fancy toy that shoots projectiles via combustion expansion of an exotic substance rather then by kinetic force of a bow string or the symmetric force of a sling |
| MarkusTay6311-11-07, 03:40 PM | Seriously, they have nerfed guns so bad in FR, I don't see why any DM wouldn't allow them - it's not like a PC is getting any benefit at all for using one. |
| Purple Dragon Knight11-11-07, 04:38 PM | Seriously, they have nerfed guns so bad in FR I don't see why any DM wouldn't allow them - it's not like a PC is getting any benefit at all for using one.Yes, it's a serious disadvantage to wield one. I made a homebrew regional feat that gnomes can take instead of "Exotic Weap Prof: Firearms" It gives them +1 to dmg and a lets them load as a move instead of standard. |
| GoldDragon11-14-07, 08:36 AM | Seriously, they have nerfed guns so bad in FR, I don't see why any DM wouldn't allow them - it's not like a PC is getting any benefit at all for using one. Nerfed up? There is a reason why killers in the horror movies prefer axes, Knives, Picks, and even Chain Saws over guns...you may kill someone with a shot to the right spot with that little bullet (relative to body size) but only a Axe will chop off a Head, only a chain saw will make a gapping wound (that must hurt like hell) that will make guts spill out and even a kitchen knife will do more damage when frantically stabbing someone like 100x v.s. a 6 shooter shooting only 6 shots before having to reload...assuming you are even carrying 100 bullets. Guns aren't "Scary", and if Musketeers had met Barbarian Berserkers half naked and wildly swinging their axes as they were charging, the Musketeers would be more likely shaken by the Screaming and whirling axes and Wild faces coming at them then if they were facing other Gunners casually shooting at then from a distance. And once in Mele the Axe has an advantage over the Gunner if the Gunner doesn't have a fallback Mele weapon for close combat. (would be a Raiper for a Musketeer, assuming their is time to draw it before getting a Axe in the Skull and another in the Groin) |
| MarkusTay6311-14-07, 01:09 PM | Makes you wonder why everyone switched to guns in the first place. :rolleyes: |
| Karsus the Mad11-14-07, 05:43 PM | There is a reason why killers in the horror movies prefer axes, Knives, Picks, and even Chain Saws over guns... It's more gruesome, dramatic, and plays towards modern social fears. Thus it's called "Horror". It has nothing to do with combat efficiency or effectiveness. Guns aren't "Scary", and if Musketeers had met Barbarian Berserkers half naked and wildly swinging their axes as they were charging, Go into combat with people shooting at you. I assure you, guns are far more "scary" than someone running at you with a knife (or an axe, sword, halberd, wung xun chu turd launcher, etc). With someone running at you with a knife, you can at least see what's going to kill you many seconds before you die, rather than first dying, *then* hearing the bang. And realizing that you won't know (or see) who killed you (or at least not know which of the musketeers it is)? That's enough to make you crap your pants before even putting in the powder and round. Makes you wonder why everyone switched to guns in the first place. Pretty much. |
| GoldDragon11-18-07, 07:28 AM | It's more gruesome, dramatic, and plays towards modern social fears. Thus it's called "Horror". It has nothing to do with combat efficiency or effectiveness. Really? Can a gun chop off your arm or leg or Head in one swing like a Great Axe,Halbard, or Great sword can? Also, we are talking D&D time line allowable Guns which can be up to 18th century Guns. There is a reason why wars like the U.S. Civil War had gunners in close formation standing maybe 150 feet from each other, 1000 guns go off and maybe only 25 people total on both sides go down. A swung weapon in Mele WILL hit something. Chance of a bullet hitting you at even 100 feet is way less then that Beserker that just somehow manage to get up into mele with you (bullet riddled mind you) and now is going to swing his Axes at your head and gut (Those axes are definately going to hit something rather they hit you or something you try to block the swings with (the Musket maybe?), or hope to dodge the thing as un gracefully as a unexperienced solder/gunner might. Go into combat with people shooting at you. I assure you, guns are far more "scary" than someone running at you with a knife (or an axe, sword, halberd, wung xun chu turd launcher, etc). With someone running at you with a knife, you can at least see what's going to kill you many seconds before you die, rather than first dying, *then* hearing the bang. And realizing that you won't know (or see) who killed you (or at least not know which of the musketeers it is)? That's enough to make you crap your pants before even putting in the powder and round. Gettysburg? Soldiers used to guns cannons on the battlefield stand their ground and even will march into Cannon fire and gun fire because the chances of being the 1 hit or not hit is a matter of where you happen to be relative to all the flying bullets and Cannon ball. As a soldier in that kind of battle it's goinf to be 50%/50% you survive it unharmed and hopefully you ARE one of the survivors and ARE unharmed by being one of the "Sheer numbers" that wasn't where every bullet and cannonball flew....lol A Beserker up in your Face Swinging two Battle Axes at you if you are a Gunner is more likely to be a Grisly End as Gunners usually have little to no Mele Training (Neither do most conscripted Archers, but that is another story) If anything I would use the same strategy of Flanking Archers with Calvery or Light Mele Soldiers on Gunner positions on the battle fields (and then when they turn around to vainly shoot their ambushers send more mele solders to "Whack their Backs" to make a Slice and dice axe/sword Gunner "Sandwich") |
| Karsus the Mad11-18-07, 11:36 AM | Really? Yes. Really. It truly is. It wouldn't be 'horror' otherwise :P Can a gun chop off your arm or leg or Head in one swing like a Great Axe,Halbard, or Great sword can? Yes. A gun firing 5000 (well, not that much:P ever see the million round gun they're testing? I'd like to see a Gondar variation) rounds per minute can indeed chop off any limb you can imagine. Often times before you realize you have lost a limb. OR, a single naval gun or bombard (well, not in-game, with the stats they have) can completly destroy what you call a body in a single shot. You might be lucky and get off a half-scream before your torso is torn to shreds. Chances are however, you are dead and nothing but a smear *before you yourself realize it*. That's what I find scary anyway. Also, we are talking D&D time line allowable Guns which can be up to 18th century Guns. As I have said before, FR does NOT follow real world timeline. DnD and FR did not have to invent anything, or develop anything. Gond himself (the god that holds divine sway over such matters) came down and GAVE the secrets away. And the original comment was that guns are nerfed. Of course they're not the best weapons around, but they're nerfed to the point where they're underpowered in relation to other weapons in DnD. There is a reason why wars like the U.S. Civil War had gunners in close formation standing maybe 150 feet from each other, 1000 guns go off and maybe only 25 people total on both sides go down. A swung weapon in Mele WILL hit something. We can just agree to disagree and get back on topic:P You find the idea of melee combat more horrific, I find combat utilizing firearms to be more horrific. The effectiveness of rank formation is, well, not particularly high. It's the mental damage that gets me everytime. |
| meto3011-18-07, 06:20 PM | And this is what happens when an uneducated person starts arguments about guns. At least I get to go to gunnery school when I become 20. Korea practices conscription. |
| MarkusTay6311-19-07, 03:40 AM | Most effective use for a gun in FR - use one against a Tuigan cavalry charge. :D Just watch what the horses that never heard a gunshot before do. :P Oh... and bring a couple of elephants along if you really want to see a 100,000 man route. :dancin: Unless they fall off their horse, of course. ;) |
| GoldDragon11-19-07, 01:03 PM | And this is what happens when an uneducated person starts arguments about guns. At least I get to go to gunnery school when I become 20. Korea practices conscription. Bottom line is that a gun is just another projectile launching weapon that just happen to use chemical combustion to launch it's projectile instead of symmetrical force of a sling or or kinetic motion of a bow string Making it something it is not, such as "A more powerful weapons then all others", is nonsense as like any other weapon it has it's strong points (easy to learn to load and shoot) and it's weak points (if powder gets wet it is useless,if there is no powder it is useless,if there is no bullets it is useless,if there is no flint or lit slow match it is useless, useless under water,useless in high humidity, and prone to misfire/backfire/jam). Personally I would take a Quando and full body bulletproof composite body armor over a gun any day...lol THe lead shot could be the same as the ones used in slings, though early guns were hand made,not manufactured, so each usually had it's own casting die to make it's bullets to fit down it's custom sized barrel and the Gun user, besides casting his own bullets, could also strip,clean,and refit his gun as well as possibly make Black powder in the field given time and resources |
| Bryaxis11-20-07, 01:29 PM | I'm glad that someone's brought up the cost of smokepowder compared to gunpowder. It's really a compromise between whether or not to have guns in the Realms. This way they can be available to wealthy PCs, but too expensive for armies to use. Otherwise it's more or less a choice between no guns at all or guns everywhere. |
| GoldDragon11-25-07, 08:20 AM | I'm glad that someone's brought up the cost of smokepowder compared to gunpowder. It's really a compromise between whether or not to have guns in the Realms. This way they can be available to wealthy PCs, but too expensive for armies to use. Otherwise it's more or less a choice between no guns at all or guns everywhere. Well no, considering a Wand of Magic Missles is with 50 charges is 6500? gp and a Gun is 500gp + 100 bullets is about 1GP and enough smokepowder to fire 100 shots is 100 gp that totals 601 gp for a weapon about as effective as a wand of magic Missles (during perfect conditions of hitting and scoring maximum damage with the gun) v.s. a 6500 gp for a wand that basically shoots only 50 magical bolts. (not to mention a target in a magical world is more likely to be magic resistant over Blunt trauma resistant) But why does it HAVE TO be smokepowder? Having a gun Assembly where the hammer that hits the bullet is enchanted with a variant of the "Avoidance" spell will send those bullets hurling on impact And having a gun using compressed gas (think Air gun) would also sound "gnomish as would a "Quick Steam" gun (chemical reaction brings water to boil instantaneously then BAM!!!!) Also a dual cartridge gun (thing Air gun cartridges) that has a common mixing chamber behind where caseless ammo is fed and whose cartridges contain 2 different chemicals compressed into them that are inert when separated but explode when mixed together in the chamber when the trigger is pulled is a alternative way to make a gun go boom And considering Gear dynamos can only think a Gnome might come up with a dynamo wheel gun (think Tennis ball launcher) that works on a crank and flings bullets as fast as a machine gun |
| Faraer11-25-07, 03:15 PM | Bottom line is that a gun is just another projectile launching weapon that just happen to use chemical combustion to launch it's projectile instead of symmetrical force of a sling or or kinetic motion of a bow stringNo, bottom line in fiction is that the gun is a symbol of technological modernity, as in Seven Samurai. |
| MarkusTay6311-25-07, 06:40 PM | Could build a Gauss Rifle as well - using linear magnetic acceleration. Lots of ways to get around the 'no Gunpowder' rule. And if you want tech, just think of Atlantis - their technology was based on light, not electricity. :D All you need are some gnomes who are good with fiber-optics and you can build super-computers in FR. :P |
| Karsus the Mad11-25-07, 07:03 PM | No need. It's all rather pointless. There's some that won't say anything that contradicts their BS. Like Kuje. For those of you that purposely refuse to poste this....you know who..... Page 9, Running the Realms, 2eFRCS The physics of the Realms are slightly out of synchronization with the rest of the planes, so that many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player characters. DMs should put some thought into what they will allow into their campaign worlds. DMs may choose to eliminate the use of gunpowder (or its magical equivalent, smoke powder) from the Realms, at their option. Bloody wankers all. |
| GoldDragon11-26-07, 12:11 PM | No, bottom line in fiction is that the gun is a symbol of technological modernity, as in Seven Samurai. For ass backwards European based fiction maybe, but in fact the Samurai Culture was by choice as before the "Isolation and Rebirth" Guns was one of there exports there in Japan and Chinese "guns" used to be made from thick bamboo mounted on poles (Fire Spears) as far back as 2500 B.C. with the gun, canon, bomb and rocket developing from somebody probably realizing that having debrie in the "Fire Spear" caused extra damage to enemies (used to pour gun powder into fire Spear,light fuse, then ram it into the intended victim), someone overloading their Fire Spear (resulting in a explosion and shrapnel) and someone not holding there Firestick good enough (causing it to "rocket off") And the prefered "machine gun" of China was a auto reloading Crossbow that could fire 1 bolt a second from 2 B.C. that would make Alexander's so called "invention" (the Greek went to China and got basic Crossbow technology in his wonderings there, he didn't pull it out of his own ass) a relic by comparison Oh, and that Last Samurai thing was just theatrics. Because They existed after Gun technology they knew that they might face "less then honorable foes' which is why there were steel plates in real Samurai Armor that could withstand a musket blast rhiough charging into a whole division of gunners would be suicidal. |
| GoldDragon11-26-07, 12:25 PM | No need. It's all rather pointless. There's some that won't say anything that contradicts their BS. Like Kuje. For those of you that purposely refuse to poste this....you know who..... Page 9, Running the Realms, 2eFRCS The physics of the Realms are slightly out of synchronization with the rest of the planes, so that many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player characters. DMs should put some thought into what they will allow into their campaign worlds. DMs may choose to eliminate the use of gunpowder (or its magical equivalent, smoke powder) from the Realms, at their option. Bloody wankers all. Dammed Oogy and Gond....lol Actually, I think it's more because Magic is the realms version of Electromagnetic fields with the "Weave" and all considering that technology works on earth from generating a difference in the Electromagnetic field of earth to get "electricity" So any technology in the Realms would have to have to run on creating a difference in the magical fields that premeate Toril. ("Weavetronics"?) And would Toril have a Magical/Etheral Fields instead of Electromagnetic ones? Because Toril is a living Megalith and not a Planet |
| MarkusTay6311-30-07, 04:54 AM | But the Realmspace supplement for the Spelljammer campaign specifically says Gunpowder does not function in the Realms. Now you could say it's not part of the same setting, but then I would just say "No, its part of the over-setting" and trumps local rules. :P As an aside, I just finished re-reading Dragonwall yesterday, and the Shou call it "Thunderpowder" - they also use rockets and hurl bombs with catapults. The wierd thing is, I thought they were using Smokepowder (with an eastern name-change), but later in the novel it mentions GUNPOWDER at least twice. Nice way to disprove my own point, I suppose. :bored: |
| Mifelhagen11-30-07, 10:53 PM | Dammed Oogy and Gond....lol Actually, I think it's more because Magic is the realms version of Electromagnetic fields with the "Weave" and all considering that technology works on earth from generating a difference in the Electromagnetic field of earth to get "electricity" So any technology in the Realms would have to have to run on creating a difference in the magical fields that premeate Toril. ("Weavetronics"?) And would Toril have a Magical/Etheral Fields instead of Electromagnetic ones? Because Toril is a living Megalith and not a Planet Your theory is flawed as there exists within the realms dead magic zones where everything continues to function without magic. It could be the god factor that keeps electronics from working; the gods, like Gond, use their portfolio powers to suppress electromagnetic and other undesirable laws. On a side note, since magic doesn't work in dead magic zones, I wonder if electronic devices would work in these places- as the gods' powers don't function well in these areas. Its possible that magic suppresses/takes up the slack of some natural laws, and electromagnetic laws might be one. |
| MarkusTay6312-01-07, 03:24 AM | But just like devices powered by magic cease to function within a dead magic zone, devices powered by electronics cease to function in a powerful EM field, so there is some correlation. I personally believe the weave generates a low-level EM pulse that inteferes with electronics just enough to make it an unreliable source, and therefore no tech would ever be developed around it. However, with the Weave gone in 4e, all bets are off. ;) On a side note, since magic doesn't work in dead magic zones, I wonder if electronic devices would work in these places- as the gods' powers don't function well in these areas.I've thought about that myself - perhaps creating a villain using the Deadlands setting sourcebook The Way of the New Science, that uses Steamtech inside a facility completed enclosed in a dead-magic zone. Or even better - maybe the Gnomes have been experimenting with creating 'portable' dead-magic zones, and are plotting even now to roll over the world in their flame-belching iron juggernaughts! |
| GoldDragon12-01-07, 06:09 AM | But just like devices powered by magic cease to function within a dead magic zone, devices powered by electronics cease to function in a powerful EM field, so there is some correlation. I personally believe the weave generates a low-level EM pulse that inteferes with electronics just enough to make it an unreliable source, and therefore no tech would ever be developed around it. However, with the Weave gone in 4e, all bets are off. ;) I've thought about that myself - perhaps creating a villain using the Deadlands setting sourcebook The Way of the New Science, that uses Steamtech inside a facility completed enclosed in a dead-magic zone. Or even better - maybe the Gnomes have been experimenting with creating 'portable' dead-magic zones, and are plotting even now to roll over the world in their flame-belching iron juggernaughts! Yes,yes, was just posting about how magnetic fields of magnets like in the Gnomish Magnetic Armor interfers with Magical fields, and it could be that the "Ether" (which are magic waves that exists with or without the Weave which is just an interface circut breaker) cancels out any harnesting of elctricity for electronics via it's "Pulsing" throughout the fabric of reality in Toril which is why electronics will not work on Toril. (canceled out by magical premiation) Dead Magic Zones only exist where the Weave isn't, but where the Weave isn't pure "ether" can still seep...it's just that Torillian Wizards are spoon fed through the "Wevae" instead of drawing on pure "Ether" which flows in via "1 above" highest dimension in a given Prime Material Plane through all other Planes though eachPlane has it's own Natural or governed laws of how Magic works. So Electronics still would have pure "Ether" Pulse interference. And magical Items that aren't Charged based and provide personal or range zero effects still work in dead magic Zones Come to think of it Elminster had a bunch of Magic Items he was using during the fall of the Weave/Mystra, so Magic Items made from Weave dependent Mages still will function |