| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| NecroticBanana02-24-07, 11:31 PM | Would spartan's armor (or ancient greek armor for that matter) be simply a breastplate by d&d standards, or is there something closer? |
| Diffan02-25-07, 12:23 AM | I would assume that it would range somewhere between Leather armor and breastplate. They didn't have chainmail or chain shirts, so I the latter of two armors would do. Also, breastplates would probably be made from Iron. |
| Sir_Wolfgar02-25-07, 01:03 AM | I think there are rules in Arms and Equipment for a bronze breastplate, which would be the correct armor. |
| Khaelieth02-25-07, 10:20 AM | I would assume that it would range somewhere between Leather armor and breastplate. They didn't have chainmail or chain shirts, so I the latter of two armors would do. Also, breastplates would probably be made from Iron. Not iron. Iron wasn't used by the Greeks. Bronze, as noted above, would be what they used. |
| Diffan02-25-07, 10:33 AM | Yea, your right. sorry, had a brain-fart. |
| Critalondel02-25-07, 11:19 AM | You might want to check out the Trojan War d20 supplement (Green Ronin, I think?) -- they've got all sorts of gear for Ancient Greek stuff. Err...am I allowed to mention other game company's stuff here? If not, I apologize. |
| MarkusTay6302-25-07, 03:37 PM | Sure, why not? Most of it is done by ex-WotC employees anyway. ;) |
| Diffan02-25-07, 09:54 PM | If the roman/greek armor was made of bronze, it would probably have a worse check penality due to it's cumbersome weight. It would probably have fewer hit points and a lighter toughness. I'm sure if you look in the Arms and Equipments Guide you'll find something to their equivilant. |
| boggler6502-25-07, 11:02 PM | If the roman/greek armor was made of bronze, it would probably have a worse check penality due to it's cumbersome weight. It would probably have fewer hit points and a lighter toughness. I'm sure if you look in the Arms and Equipments Guide you'll find something to their equivilant. Simply put, metal armor was not widely used in battle. There are a number of reasons, but they don't really matter that much. Most Mediterranean people more commonly wore a breast plate of boiled leather, a skirt made of strips of boiled leather weighted on the end, boiled leather greaves, and boiled leather bracers. So, just use the statistics for simple leather armor from the players handbook, and then describe its wearer as having thier biceps bare. |
| NecroticBanana02-25-07, 11:19 PM | i just saw a new trailer for the "300" movie, and i noticed those spartans wern't wearing much of anything, "underwear" made of leather strips, greeves, bracers, helm and stylish red cape lol.... would that stuff do anything at all for there AC? |
| boggler6502-25-07, 11:28 PM | Well you're right, that would do nothing. Just keep in mind that Frank Miller's 300 is not a historical representation, in any sense, I love Frank Miller's work, but it's not like he did any research into the Spartans for that. The only thing accurate is that throughout most actual historical accounts the Spartans are described as wearing red cloaks into battle and chanting as they advanced. The most recent movie to depict anything like an accurate set of ancient Greek armor is Troy starring Brad Pitt, but even that has flaws. |
| NecroticBanana02-25-07, 11:41 PM | i figured it wouldnt do much..they just look so friggin cool! i wanna roll up a fighter based on them..was just wondering were to start for there armor. Tho i am considering going the "Frank Miller route" and have him wearing no armor at all... i could see my groups faces when i say, my character is wearing a cape...and a leather skirt...oh and he's got a spear lol |
| boggler6502-25-07, 11:50 PM | Just remember to give him a shield, Greek spears in dnd terms were short spears, thus he could use a shield and a spear at the same time. =) BTW that idea is pretty sweet... so i'm going to do my own right now... hmm... perhaps I will post his stats somewhere later... keep an eye out man. peace. |
| Critalondel02-26-07, 11:33 AM | The problem is that no single Spartan warrior is necessarily all that badass -- what made the ancient Greeks so cool on the battlefield was how they fought in a reliable line, shielded one another, presented a unified front to absorb charges, fought in tandem with the man next to them, etc, etc. Hard to do that in a D&D game (even if the whole 5-6 strong group chimes in and plays along, a 5 man shield wall's not the most impressive thing in the world). |
| Diffan02-26-07, 03:01 PM | aye, the Phalanx was a wonderful strategy to use, though if pushed on their weak side, could crumble it. As for spartan armor, I say use leather armor. It would be the easiest to use and adapt to. Also, spartans wore red cloaks because it would soak up and cover up many wounds they recieved, giving them the appearance that no matter if you hit them in battle, they didn't bleed. |
| NecroticBanana02-26-07, 03:31 PM | i agree, the spartans greatest weapon was there group tactics, but there are several shots of them individually whoopin arse, also i think it would be a good change from yer typical bastard sword, plate mail style fighter..use some of those feats one would normally not consider, like some of the shield based ones. |
| boggler6502-26-07, 03:34 PM | did you get to stat out your spartan last night necro? |
| NecroticBanana02-26-07, 09:56 PM | no, unfortunatly i had to pull a long night at the tattoo shop, and didnt have the chance. but i am probably going to delve deeply into complete warrior, tho i dont think they have a weapon style feat for spear and shield, which, i think, would be nice, but oh well. i think i'm going to pick feats that allow me to use my shield as offensivly as possible, but like i said, i havnt had the chance to really look into it yet |
| Kail02-27-07, 01:03 AM | Spartan strength and reputation came from the fact that they were one of the few city states to actually train more than just basic formation fighting. Within the phalanx, manuever was particularly difficult to do and maintain orderly lines. The Spartans were good enough to undertake serveral complicated wheeling and dirrection changing manuevers. Well, not 'complicated', but very difficult given the formation and situation and far beyond what say, the men of Athans could achieve and hold ranks. Spartans were also individually fearsome. Fearless, tough, used to hard fighting, deprivation, exposure. They took part in night time 'raids' or hunts against escaped slaves. These guys were basically the special forces of the pre-Alexanderian Greeks. Iron Will or Endurance are must have 'flavor' feats and the Intimidation skill is up there too. Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Imp Sunder(Breaking shields), Shield Pin, Imp. Shield Bash etc. are also well within flavor and would help make a great hoplite. As to the armor you can go with the two classic materials. Shaped, boiled leather was used early on, and the bronze as well. Don't forget, the Spartans were the upper class of their culture. No less well equiped than a rich French knight a thousand plus years later. So, "high end" gear, like the bronze armor, from them is possible. |
| boggler6502-27-07, 02:22 AM | First of all, Sparta was a city-state, meaning it was an independent country, therefore not all Spartan warriors were aristocrats, nor were all of them highly trained, most were, not all. Secondly the use of bronze armor was, as I stated, was limited primarily due to the demands of warfare in the mediterranean and near eastern climates of the time period. Saying that they would willingly subject themselves to physical hardship and impairment just because they could take it is akin to walking around wearing a winter coat in 90 degree weather, just because you probably won't die doesn't mean that you would do it. You've also got to remember to consider that it was rare for a suit of armor to survive a campaign, or even a battle without need of replacement or serious repair. Thus leather would have been preferred, especially by the "elite" who fought constantly, due to the fact that it was cheaper and easier to replace than bronze. Furthermore the early bronze age began long before mediterranean civilization, so it's not as if they didn't initially have access to it, they always had access to it, but for the aforementioned reasons it was not widely used. enough about that though... and don't try to argue with me kail, that's not the point of this thread and I will not respond further, set up a thread somewhere else if you want to discuss it further. Here's for you Necro! there is no spear/shield feat in there, but i've cooked on up for ya. cheers. Raging Bull Style: Seeking to emulate an animal sacred to your people you have mastered the brutal and powerful art of fighting wielding a shortspear in conjunction with a large shield. Prerequisites: Strength 13, Shield proficiency(large), weapon focus(shortspear), combat reflexes. Benefits: Following a successful bullrush you may make an attack of oppurtunity against your opponent, furthermore on a successful bullrush your opponent takes damage as if you had also attacked with a shield bash. Lastly if you fail your bull rush attempt you are entitled to make a reflex check dc 15 (+2 per five feet of movement prior to the attack) in order to avoid being driven back by five feet or falling prone. Success indicates that you have moved five feet into an adjacent empty square, if all squares are occupied you fall prone. A successful reflex save provokes an attack of opportunity, the failed bullrush attempt still provokes an attack of opportunity, but not from the defender. ex. A character charges from 20 feet, bullrushing his opponent. The character fails his strength check, but suceeds on a reflex check dc 23 (15+2/five feet of charge) he is then moves 5 feet to the left rather than 5 feet backwards. Normal: The defender provokes an attack of opportunity if he is moved, but not from the attacker who has moved him. On a failed bullrush attempt the attacker is moved five feet backwards to his original square, and falls prone if that square is occupied. Special: A fighter may select Raging Bull Style as a bonus feat. Shock trooper would be a good feat for your warrior as well. Here's another Improved Raging Bull Style: Your extensive experience fighting with a spear and shield combined with your prodigious strength allows you to utilize your chosen form of combat in ways never thought possible. Prerequites: Strength 17, Raging Bull Style, shield proficiency(tower shield), Shock Trooper Benefits: When wielding a tower shield the character is able to make shield bash attacks with a tower shield for 1d6 damage. If a character fails his bull rush attempt, but succeeds his reflex save the character does not provoke an attack of oppurtunity as he moves to an adjacent square. A failed reflex save still provokes an attack of opportunity, the character gains a +2 bonus on his reflex save. Normal: A tower shield cannot be used to make a shield bash attack. A successful reflex save provokes an attack of opportunity when moving to the adjacent square. The final logical progression =) Perfect Raging Bull Style: Your years of battle field conditioning and experience have forged you into a peerless example of your culture's primary combat style. Prerequisites: Strength 21, Improved Raging Bull Style, Greater Weapon Focus(shortspear). Benefits: During a successful bull rush made using a tower shield you simultaneously make a shield bash attempt as a free action, followed by an attack of opportunity against the defender, the defender is considered flat footed during both of these attacks. Neither of these actions provoke attacks of opportunity against you. A failed reflex save following a failed bull rush attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but leaves the character flat footed against the next attack made. On a failed bull rush attempt the attacker gains a +4 bonus on the reflex save made to avoid being pushed backwards. Normal: Bull rush, and shield bash attacks must be made seperately, shield bash attacks cannot be made with a tower shield. The attacker cannot make an attack of opportunity against the defender following a successful bull rush. No reflex save is allowed following a successful bull rush, with improved raging bull style an attack of opportunity is still provoked following a successful reflex save. Two weapon fighting and archery styles get thier own progression of feats, so why not other styles... it only makes sense. |
| Kid SixXx02-27-07, 06:40 AM | And don't forget the Phalanx Fighting feat in Lords of Darkness. |
| Diffan02-27-07, 12:36 PM | And don't forget the Phalanx Fighting feat in Lords of Darkness. I think they also have a feat called Phalanx Fighting in Complete Warrior. You might also wast to invest into the Leadership feat. Imagine yourself gaining the use of cohorts and fitting them all with spartan armor and using the tactical feats and what-not to the DM's dismay. |
| NecroticBanana02-27-07, 07:30 PM | very nice..i do appreicate the feats Boggler. Kail: those are pretty much the same feats i was eyeballing for my spartan, i dont often hear of someone putting alot of emphesis on something thats not technically a weapon, a nice change. Diffan: i never thought of doin the leadership thing, thats awsome! my DM would crap his pants! |
| MarkusTay6302-27-07, 07:48 PM | I'm thinking PrC now (Hoplite?), using Boggler's feats as class abilities. Give him some built-in armor bonuses for wearing nothing heavier then leather, or studded leather, which could be the equivalent of wearing a Bronze breastplate with the standard leather attire. In this way, his greater maneuverability will act as it does with the Swashbucler, Duelist, and Monk classes. He might not be as well armored, but he can dodge out of the way quicker, not to mention being able to defend more efficiently against foes on his flanks (no bonuses for enemies attacking there). Wrap all of these things together and you have yourself a pretty awesome PrC. |
| boggler6502-27-07, 11:02 PM | hmmm Markus... you raise an interesting point... I shall do this... tonight if I have time... There would have to be some tweaking... for instance perhaps monk attack bonus progression, ranger save progression, ten levels, a regional requirement... oh, yeah, to see the revised and balanced progression for the raging bull style refer to the other thread...http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=799490 I feel certain now that I will fail my upcoming anthropology 201 test.... oh well =) I have certain other things to do tonight but later on I'll try to post a 10 level PRC for hoplite or some such. |
| MarkusTay6302-27-07, 11:15 PM | Cool deal, I will be looking forward to this. I have the perfect neo-Grecian area in my campaign where this class would fit in perfectly. :D |
| boggler6502-27-07, 11:55 PM | I'm about to start on it, just keep in mind i'm not going to gear this PRC specifically toward greeks, plus a neo-grecian area would essentially be the same as a roman area, and... the hoplites were classical greeks (who would have carried long spears), spartans were ancient greeks/argives/myceneans/minoan... all different cultures, i'm just generalizing there. Anyway bottom line this class will fit anywhere, since the shield spear combo was actually more prevelant throughout history than any other weapon... everywhere... in every culture... lol... so it will fit pretty much wherever, but grecian is a good fit as well. =) update.... this class is too fun not to do something awesome with.... thus.... the, for lack of a better term, hoplite, will be expanded... by me into a 20th level core class.... yayay! |
| Kail02-28-07, 01:40 AM | NecroticBanana, Thanks for the compliment. Endurance is pretty much pure fluff since it's pretty hard to get into situations that demand it's use, but it can happen. Iron Will, represents steely resolve, and helps compensate for a Fighter's low Will saves. Intimidate, is a good fighter skill to have on hand, and the hardened gaze of a 'laconic' Spartan in red cloak, pure scarey. I'd still ahve to argue for bronze armor if you really want to get the 'feel' right. The armor used was bronze, more often than not, by the time of the classical Greek period. It's cost was high, but men who funded their own way into what was seasonal warfare from age 20 to 60 wanted the best protection the could afford(there's a min/max joke in there somewhere). "After the eighth century they were equipped in uniform style....the cost of the equipment, particularly of his bronze helmet, breastplate or the greaves that protected his shins, was costly charge on his income and could be borne only by a man of property. (The survival of bronze armour into the Iron Age is..) Such protection was essential to the man who took his place in the phalanx.." [A History of WarfareKeegan pg 247-48.] Meaning that bronze armor was the norm, and it took considerable funds to outfit ones self for duty in the phalanx. Yes, the gear was heavy and hot, but the engagements were short, usually under an hour, and all of the men fighting them knew that their best chance lay in holding formation. The gear was too heavy to run away in, even after disgaurding the shield, and the real killing took place if one phalanx broke up. For this reason I'd go with something heavier than leather for armor. Breast plate perhaps, droping AC by 1 and upping max dex and dropping the check penalty. Bit of fun reading http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/SPARTA.HTM http://tx.essortment.com/greekwarriorsp_rwhv.htm And since it's not too bad and everyone uses it, wiki- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta Now, if your going to build a PrC around hoplite style warriors, I wouldn't go for Swashbuckler styled AC bonuses based on high mobility. Kind of runs against the grain of what those sort of fighters did. I'd send his bonuses in two dirrection. Bonuses to the AC provided by the Large Shield and some resistances to Trip, Bullrush and Overrun attacks. That supports the feat chain boogler worked up, and that works well for phalanx style fighting, without needing a shield wall to fight from behind. that keeps the character viable as an individual. |
| boggler6502-28-07, 01:52 AM | Now, if your going to build a PrC around hoplite style warriors, I wouldn't go for Swashbuckler styled AC bonuses based on high mobility. Kind of runs against the grain of what those sort of fighters did. I'd send his bonuses in two dirrection. Bonuses to the AC provided by the Large Shield and some resistances to Trip, Bullrush and Overrun attacks. That supports the feat chain boogler worked up, and that works well for phalanx style fighting, without needing a shield wall to fight from behind. that keeps the character viable as an individual. Yeah, the shield wall and phalanx fighting style were typically only maintained when volleys of spears and arrows were being sent at them, and during the initial advance, after that the tendancy, among greeks, not romans, was to push forward as a mostly cohesive group, mixing the ranks of thier enemies and pushing the enemy lines back. The build I'm working up right now is similar to the monk, in that it's very special heavy, I did it so that there are no "dead" levels. I used the ranger BAB, and Save progression, since the ranger has only 5 dead levels, but gains spells at all of them, i figured that made up for it. Right now i'm having trouble deciding the skills per level... i mean tumble, jump, climb, swim, and survival all make sense for a greek warrior oriented class, also i threw in the ranger's restriction that class abilities only function if the character wears light or no armor(save the shield) and carries no more than a light load. I believe a d8 would be a reasonable for hp, since they're highly skilled, and rely more on mobility than anything else. |
| MarkusTay6302-28-07, 02:19 AM | Sounds great. Although I agree with kail for a historical warrior, I think we can 'cheat' a little for our fantasy version. He's supposed to be more like the ones from the movie, remember? So this is basically a 'Hollywood' Hoplite just for game purposes. Giiving him feats that help in formations and when fighting in sync with others may be more historically accurate, but I always thought those feats were pretty useless for PCs. How many party's charge the bad guys in formation? Thats why I suggested the speed bonus to AC for being lightly armored, its a more playable build that way. Creating accurate PrCs is fun, but the idea is to get people to want to use them as well. The shield stuff is great though, because that works either way, and gets PCs to use a spear, a weapon rarely taken. Just my :twocents: |
| boggler6502-28-07, 02:29 AM | thats why i've given them the leadership feat as a special class ability... hehe... at level 10... imagine, charging into an orc war party with about 20 other hoplites.... imagine the damage, the dismay, the destruction... the pain... heheh |
| Kid SixXx02-28-07, 07:10 AM | I have the perfect neo-Grecian area in my campaign where this class would fit in perfectly. :D Sean K. Reynolds ran a Grecian themed campaign and it turned out so well that he made a pretty good soucebook from the campaign notes called The New Argonauts (http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/002TNA/). The PDF is a mere seven American dollars, so it might be worth the investment depending on how often you use your neo-Grecian area in your campaign. |
| Diffan02-28-07, 07:47 AM | This link might help. I found it on Community 3e.com. I hope it helps..... http://www.community3e.com/dn/pclass/TheMyrmidon.pdf |
| boggler6502-28-07, 08:05 AM | The f**k**g wizards board needs serious functionality work. This will now be my 4th attempt to post. I had originally put in all the same info as you would find in the PHB for a core class, even though it is only a PrC. I am no longer inclined to care since I am tired of typing this up. You should be able to figure everything out on your own, I'll give you what you need to do that, but no more frills. Prerequisites: Strength 17, Dexterity 15, Armor Proficiency (ability to wear light armor and carry heavy shields), Weapon Focus (any spear), Intimidate 4 Ranks, Base Attack Bonus +1. It is possible for a human to take this class as early as level 3. Game Rule Information: Abilities: Strength, hoplites rely on movement, they must be able to inflict heavy damage very quickly. Dexterity, movement is essential to a hoplite, as is light armor, therefore dexterity is important. Constitution, hoplites are a combat class and must compensate for thier low hit die, also they will often move long distances to do battle with little or no rest. Intelligence, hoplites must often rely on themselves for equipment maintenance and survival, a sly hoplite is a living hoplite. Wisdom and charisma are not quite as important, since the hoplite does not often engage in politics or subterfuge. Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d8. Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(geography), Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble. Skill points: 4+int Base Attack Bonus, and Base Save Bonus progression: The hoplite progresses from level 1-10 with the same base attack, fortitude, reflex, and will save bonuses as a ranger. Special: Level 1: Raging Bull Style, Stamina Reserve +1 Level 2: Run, Toughness Level 3: Improved Shield Bash, Uncanny Dodge Level 4: Phalanx Fighting, Issue Challange Level 5: Improved Raging Bull Style, Stamina Reserve +2 Level 6: Shock Trooper, Acclimatized Level 7: Endurance, Fleet of Foot Level 8: Combat Brute, Formation Expert Level 9: Diehard, Improved Uncanny Dodge Level 10: Greater Raging Bull Stlye, Stamina Reserve +3 I feel that this class is not overpowered, my primary argument for this is the comparison to the assassin class, found in the DMG. First of all, the assassin gains a whopping 17 special abilities during the course of his progression. This class gains 20. Second the asssassin save and attack bonuses progress the same as a rogues, mine progress the same as a rangers. Assassins get the same amount of skills as my hoplites, but they only get a d6 of Hp, the hoplite gets a d8. The assassin may draw skills from a large list, including non combat skills etc. A hoplite's skill set is limited, and serves him well only in battle. Lastly, an assassin is able to cast spells... AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the assassins abilities are in no way limited by the armor he wears or weapons he uses, he can use the same weapons and armor that he would have used before without any penalty to his class abilities, OR his spellcasting. This is very powerful and dangerously close to being unbalanced. The hoplite is intended to be an effective frontline fighter in most situations, but in a different than normal way. To use his class abilities he suffers penalties that would definently leave him dead if they were not compensated for, even with this the hoplite is in my opinion on the weak side (still balanced, but I could have given him a few more abilites). anyway, moving on the class feature descriptions. All class features are gained regardless of whether the hoplite meets thier prerequisites, none of the following class features function if the hoplite wears anything other than light, non-metal armor (excepting a heavy shield), or carries a load heavier than light; Raging bull style, improved raging bull style, greater raging bull style, run, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, phalanx fighting, shock trooper, fleet of foot, combat brute, formation expert. Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A hoplite automatically gains proficiency with the following weapons; Kopis, Xiphos, Doru, short spear, spear, longspear, dagger, club, handaxe, javelin, sling, shortbow, composite shortbow, throwing axe. Raging Bull Style: You are able to wield a spear, doru, or longspear (two handed weapons) as one handed weapons in conjunction with a heavy shield without suffering a penalty. Improved Raging Bull Style: After a successful bull rush the attacker may take advantage of the attack of opportunity provoked by the defender (normally this is not possible). Greater Raging Bull Style: When wielding a longspear, or doru in conjunction with a heavy shield the hoplite may use the weapon to make an attack against an adjacent opponent at -4 penalty to attack bonus which does 1d4 damage (normally the doru, and longspear are reach weapons). Stamina Reserve: Beginning at first level the hoplite gains a +1 bonus to constitution checks made to continue running, this increases to +2 at level five, and +3 at level ten. This next one is important... and entirely my own =) Issue Challenge: Prior to the beginning of any combat (before initiative is rolled) a hoplite may step forward and with a successful non-skill related check (the DC of which is determined by the dm, as well as which bonuses or whatever are applied, I use intuition frequently, roll die 20 and add to it your combined wisdom and intelligence bonuses ex. hoplite has +1 int and +1 wis, therefore his bonus is +2) identify the leader of the enemy combatants and challenge him to single combat. The leader may accept or reject the challenge, should the leader accept he may fight, or he may appoint a champion to fight in his place. Whether or not the enemy accepts the challenge is up to the DM, if the leader accepts the DM can also decide whether or not the enemy leader actually honors the terms of the challenge. Should the leader reject the challenge the hoplite is denied any initiative bonus at the beginning of combat. If the challenge is accepted the participants fight each other in single combat. If the terms of the challenge are honored and the hoplite is victorious the hoplite will gain a 5% bonus to experience for the remainder of the encounter, as well as a +1 bonus to intimidate, and an additional +1 bonus to intimidate for each enemy killed during the encounter. If the hoplite's challenge is accepted and the terms are violated and the hoplite still is victorious the experience bonus is increased to 10%, furthermore for the remainder of the encounter the hoplite is treated as having the frightful presence ability, the save against the ability in this case is (dc10+hoplite level+hoplite charisma). If a hoplite is defeated he is usually killed, if however the hoplite's allies intervene to prevent defeat (breaking the terms of the challenge) the hoplite suffers a 5% penalty to experience gained until the next time he issues a challenge and achieves victory honorably. This penalty is cumulative. If a hoplite is defeated because an enemy breaks the terms of the challenge his friends and allies may intervene with no penalty to the hoplite (intervention of allies however denies the frightful presence ability for the encounter, to gain it the hoplite must overcome the treachery through his own power). Acclimatized: A hoplite is accustomed to enduring a certain climate, having spent most of their life living and fighting in that environment. Choose one of the following environmental types. Cold: A hoplite accustomed to living and fighting in cold dangers (see page 302 of the Dungeon Master's Guide) ignores the effects of being unprotected in cold weather, makes a Fortitude saving throw every hour rather than every 10 minutes when unprotected in severe cold or exposure, and every 10 minutes rather than every 5 minutes in extreme cold. Damage for inhabiting extreme cold is inflicted normally. Adversely, for heat dangers (see page 303 of the Dungeon Master's Guide), the savage makes a Fortitude saving throw every 10 minutes rather than every hour in very hot conditions, every 5 minutes rather than every 10 minutes in severe heat, and every minute rather than every 5 minutes in extreme heat. Damage for breathing air in extreme heat is inflicted normally. Temperate: A hoplite accustomed to living and fighting in a temperate climate experiences cold and heat dangers normally. Warm: A hoplite accustomed to living and fighting in heat dangers (see page 303 of the Dungeon Master's Guide) ignores the effects of very hot conditions, makes a Fortitude saving throw every hour rather than every 10 minutes in severe heat, and every 10 minutes rather than every 5 minutes in extreme heat. Damage for breathing air in extreme heat is inflicted normally. Adversely, for cold dangers (page 302 of the Dungeon Master's Guide), the hoplite makes a Fortitude saving throw every 10 minutes rather than every hour when unprotected in cold weather, every 5 minutes rather than every 10 minutes when unprotected in severe cold or exposure, and every minute rather than every 5 minutes in extreme cold. Damage for inhabiting extreme cold is inflicted normally. Ok, homestretch everyone. New weapons: Kopis: A saber, slightly curved, which resembles a large kukri. Exotic Light Melee Weapon, damage 1d6, critical 18-20x2, damage type slashing, weight 2lb. Historical Kopis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopis) Xiphos: A normal short sword... just liked using its greek name. lol. Doru: An exotic, but flimsy longspear with a variety of uses, and a spike affixed to the butt end. Exotic Two Handed Simple Weapn, damage 1d8/1d4, critical x3/x2, damage type piercing/piercing, weight 4lb. Historical Doru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doru) Doru have a tendancy to break due to thier relatively light weight, they still can be set against a charge however. Treat a broken doru as if it has broken cleanly in half, the broken doru pieces then are treated as two seperate short spears, but are treated as one step lower in quality than the original doru; thus a broken masterwork doru would yield two normal short spears. All doru are of at least masterwork quality. |
| MarkusTay6302-28-07, 11:04 PM | Nice work, Boggler. :D The f**k**g wizards board needs serious functionality work. This will now be my 4th attempt to post. I had originally put in all the same info as you would find in the PHB for a core class, even though it is only a PrC. I am no longer inclined to care since I am tired of typing this up.Thats why I type all of my 'big' posts in word first, I've had it happen to me. :( Sean K. Reynolds ran a Grecian themed campaign and it turned out so well that he made a pretty good soucebook from the campaign notes called The New Argonauts (http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/002TNA/). The PDF is a mere seven American dollars, so it might be worth the investment depending on how often you use your neo-Grecian area in your campaign.Actually, its FREE now!!! :eek: Even better, everyone should get one! |
| boggler6503-01-07, 12:14 AM | ok.... wow... that was... uhhh... yeah.... but now it's done.... hooorayy!! |
| NecroticBanana03-01-07, 10:54 PM | and i thought i was having problems, this is the first "new post" update i got, for a while i was afraid no-one noticed it lol |
| GothicDan03-09-07, 03:56 PM | ... You should also make a note about them being psychotic sociopaths. *Coughs.* Sorry, as a student of Classical culture, I get a little tired of hearing of how AWESOMEZ0Rz!! Sparta was. It was a pretty messed up society in a lot of ways. I'd taken Athens any day. |
| Stigger03-09-07, 07:43 PM | Really messed up society and culture... |
| ElberethSilverleaf03-10-07, 01:40 AM | Historically the fiercest group of hoplites were probably The Sacred Band of Thebes. They fought to the death against Phillip II's long-speared Macedonian phalanx, and were honored by him for their bravery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes |
| Critalondel03-10-07, 01:52 AM | Most Spartans were neither sociopathic nor psychotic -- they couldn't have functioned together in the large groups they did, were that the case. Were they bloody handed tyrants? Sure. But they were (in many ways) a culture that was almost stereotypically Lawful Evil. They had a ruling class of elite warriors, second-class women, they took (as well as bred) slaves that greatly outnumbered them (keeping them dominated through wholly legal acts of cruelty and brutality), they grew as a nation only through conquest... That's LE, right there. To a "T." They weren't good people. But they were good soldiers. |
| GothicDan03-10-07, 11:50 AM | I could totally see sociopathic being LE, myself. :) And yes, they were good soldiers. I just think that media has a tendency to overstate the glorification of lifestyles of BAD people. Case in point: the 'Pirates' movies. Similar. Pirates were BAD PEOPLE. They raped and pillaged and plundered, no matter what the movies said. And as you said, the Spartans were bad people. To me, being good soldiers doesn't override that. Of course, the Athenians weren't the 'best' people ever (Tyrant of Athens!), but they suit me, personally, much more than the Spartans did. And they had an amazing navy and were smart enough to colonize EVERYWHERE. Also... Sacred Band of Thebes! They were REALLY gay! Gay men are superior! Woooo! |
| MarkusTay6303-10-07, 12:16 PM | They were actually called the Sacred Band of Sebes.... but... you know... with the lisp and all... ;) :rofl: |
| GothicDan03-10-07, 12:25 PM | *Smite!* |
| bitter thorn03-11-07, 10:28 PM | Most Spartans were neither sociopathic nor psychotic -- they couldn't have functioned together in the large groups they did, were that the case. Were they bloody handed tyrants? Sure. But they were (in many ways) a culture that was almost stereotypically Lawful Evil. They had a ruling class of elite warriors, second-class women, they took (as well as bred) slaves that greatly outnumbered them (keeping them dominated through wholly legal acts of cruelty and brutality), they grew as a nation only through conquest... That's LE, right there. To a "T." They weren't good people. But they were good soldiers. I'm not sure I agree when you look at the behavior of many secret police operatives in brutal police states for the past century. |
| bitter thorn03-11-07, 10:31 PM | I could totally see sociopathic being LE, myself. :) And yes, they were good soldiers. I just think that media has a tendency to overstate the glorification of lifestyles of BAD people. Case in point: the 'Pirates' movies. Similar. Pirates were BAD PEOPLE. They raped and pillaged and plundered, no matter what the movies said. I concur. I wonder how long it will take for the media to produce a movie with Stalin or Hitler as the good guy. |
| Critalondel03-12-07, 11:19 AM | I'm not sure I agree when you look at the behavior of many secret police operatives in brutal police states for the past century. What exactly don't you agree with? I'm a little confused, and having trouble making the leap from what I was talking about, to what you disagree with, to secret police, etc, of the last hundred years or so. I feel like I'm missing a connection somewhere in the conversation. In unrelated (but ironically on-topic for the thread title itself, at least) news...I think the best way to handle "Spartan Armor" is good shields, cloaks with Ring of Protection type qualities, and some sort of special ability (perhaps for a Fighter-based prestige class) that would let you add your CON bonus to AC (as opposed to INT or WIS like several other classes, core and prestige), to represent "toughing it out" and ignoring the pain, etc, etc. |
| bitter thorn03-12-07, 11:09 PM | What exactly don't you agree with? I'm a little confused, and having trouble making the leap from what I was talking about, to what you disagree with, to secret police, etc, of the last hundred years or so. I feel like I'm missing a connection somewhere in the conversation. In unrelated (but ironically on-topic for the thread title itself, at least) news...I think the best way to handle "Spartan Armor" is good shields, cloaks with Ring of Protection type qualities, and some sort of special ability (perhaps for a Fighter-based prestige class) that would let you add your CON bonus to AC (as opposed to INT or WIS like several other classes, core and prestige), to represent "toughing it out" and ignoring the pain, etc, etc. Sorry about that I should has been more specific. I was refering to sociopaths and psychotics not being able to function is large groups. "Most Spartans were neither sociopathic nor psychotic -- they couldn't have functioned together in the large groups they did, were that the case." Without getting mired in DSM clinical definitions, I think many members of certain state security or secret police organizations, especially in more brutally oppresive states, could reasonably be said to exhibit these tendancies, but they still funtion within a structured group. (sorry about the sidetracking) On topic, I like your idea about an AC bonus from CON. Another approach might be a circumstance bonus to AC for phalanx fighting, or some combination of the two. |
| Critalondel03-13-07, 04:24 AM | The phalanx fighting style relied almost completely upon having trust in the man to your right (whose shield helps protect you), and in caring about the man to your left (so you'd use your shield to help protect him). I have trouble imagining a massive collection of sociopaths or psychopaths making that fighting style work. Trust and empathy aren't the strong points of either group. I'm not saying there were never any Spartans with violent mental disorders -- by today's standards, MOST ancient civilizations would've been full of "crazy" people -- I just think it's oversimplifying things quite a bit, and being inaccurate, to imply Sparta's soldierly ranks were full of raving lunatics. Raving lunatics might be good killers, but they aren't good soldiers (and the Spartans unarguably were). |
| Stigger03-14-07, 03:08 AM | Trust and empathy? I'd think it had more to do with discipline and training than trust or empathy. As to them being sociopaths... given the rather harsh conditions of their training and life, not to mention their society in general, I don't think it's too much of a stretch when applied as a cultural term, rather than as a term used to describe a particular individual. |
| rolig03-15-07, 07:17 PM | Trojan Horse Tactic FTW! Btw... be careful opening for players to use trojan horses when you DM online:P You'r pc might get invaded... perhaps they have orderd the horse to delete the most dangerous creatures in your online setting.... Anyhow:P how cool would it not to invade a city with a bunch of sneaky rouges in a trojan horse:D |
| Burningspear04-02-07, 05:54 PM | Actually, its FREE now!!! :eek: Even better, everyone should get one! It might be free, but u have to be A member of sorts and i loath that just to get a free text file :tie: |
| ElGrecoETAC04-03-07, 08:40 AM | Were the Spartans evil? By our modern standards, they were abusive to children, practiced eugenics (they supposedly left imperfect babies to die of exposure), relied on institutionalized slavery, and centered their society on slaves. On the other hand, what was their world like? The contemporaries of Lacedaemon (the proper name for the state, as Sparta was merely the name given to the collection of 5 villages forming the main urban hub) also engaged in slavery, and also engaged in recurring seasonal warfare for resources. The Lacedaemonian system, as designed (supposedly) by Lycurgus, was ultimately designed not so much for expansive warfare, but as a guarantee for that state's continued existence and independence. It was, in other words, an incredibly drastic attempt at ensuring that its citizens would always have food. Also, another side note: Lacedaemonian women might not have been able to participate in government as such, but they were more than mere 2nd class citizens. They were able to own property, they also were able to participate in the highest religious and cultural festivals, they too were given institutionalized training along somewhat similar parallels as the boys', and their ability to voice their opinion--both at home and in public--was viewed by contemporaries with flawed, mistaken ideas (such as Plato) as positively scandalous. Incidentally, Hellenic peoples didn't really use leather armor. Bronze breastplates were replaced as time went on for a few reasons. What most commonly replaced it was the linothorax--a breastplate made off several layers of glued linen. Does that sound weak? Historians tested it against 170-180lbs draw bows, and the arrows barely penetrated the linothorax. The standard spear used by hoplites was approximately 8-9 feet tall. While it possessed a stabbing point at the reverse end (to dispatch foes on the ground while the phalanx rolled over them), it shouldn't count as an exotic weapon anymore than a quarterstaff is--unless you want to incorporate into it an additional attack, that is. I would not allow a hoplite to use a longspear with a large shield one-handed, though. That was a signature of the later "peltast"-type troops created by the Athenian mercenary general, Iphicrates. He specifically designed lighter "hoplites" with a smaller shield (that could either be used actively or left hanging), a longer spear (used with two hands), and lighter armor so as to outmaneuver and defeat the more cumbersome traditional hoplites. Rules I would suggest: 1) Amend the silly Phalanx Fighting feat to allow for melee weapons, period. 2) For the 18-foot long pike (called a sarissa) phalanxes that Alexander had, which had 5 different pikes projecting in front of each man, I would work some sort of attack of opportunity rule against anyone trying to weave through the projecting pikes. |
| Burningspear04-03-07, 02:52 PM | Rules I would suggest: 1) Amend the silly Phalanx Fighting feat to allow for melee weapons, period. i wholly agree on that one, i thought it silly to be allowed only for light weapons at the least... |
| Mpinkard04-03-07, 02:59 PM | Take a look at this video. http://www.history.com/media.do?id=laststandof300_spartanbootca mp_broadband&action=clip Might want to watch History Channel schedual to try and catch the show "Last Stand of the 300" Mind you this is just my opinion and I have not seen Frank Miller's 300, but here is an addendium to the previously posted stats for a Spartan Soldier class based on historical fact. Spartans should be considered the same as todays Delta Force, Navy Seals or Army Rangers. These Soldiers were extreamly adept at Escape and Evasion tactics as well as thier battle field resolve. The Spartan soldier should be a main class due to their extensive training starting at 7 years old and lasting 12 years. Hit Die should likely be d10 or d12(based on playtest) Base attack Bonus as a Fighter Proficient in all simple and martial Weapons Proficient in Light, Medium and Heavy Armor(limited by technology) Saves FORT, REF, WILL 2 2 1 3 3 2 3 3 2 4 4 3 4 4 3 5 5 4 5 5 4 6 6 5 6 6 5 7 7 6 7 7 6 8 8 7 8 8 7 9 9 8 9 9 8 10 10 9 10 10 9 11 11 10 11 11 10 12 12 11 Starting Skill Points (6+INT mod)x4 Class Skills should include, Hide, Move Silent, Knowledge(Nobility & Royalty), Knowledge(Nature) and Survival. Class Features should include Toughness, Endurance, Diehard, Sneak Attack, Leadership, Phalanx Fighting and Uncanny Dodge. Special: When 4 or more Spartans are within 10ft they automatically gain a number of Teamwork benefits based on the hit dice of the highest level spartan in the area, Team Rally, Fearsom Roster, Like a Rock, Steadfast Resolve, and Wall of Steel. The Teamwork benefits need to be tested and sorted as per rank/level. The Doru used by the Spartan soldiers was a heavier version than the typical Greek doru. One end having an iron spear head used for slashing and piercing, the other end was weighted and sharp for an alternate attack on prone targets. The shaft of the Doru was nearly 6ft long an sturdy. For the purposes of game mechanics the Doru should be considered an exotic double weapon in the hands of a non-Spartan. The Hoplon shield mechanically should be treated as a heavy steel shield in the hands of a non-Spartan where it would have the same AC benefit as a Heavy Steel Shield in the hands of a Spartan but considered easy to manage and light as a buckler. |
| ElGrecoETAC04-03-07, 08:42 PM | The Doru used by the Spartan soldiers was a heavier version than the typical Greek doru. One end having an iron spear head used for slashing and piercing, the other end was weighted and sharp for an alternate attack on prone targets. I've never heard this. The alternate spike was universal, IIRC. The shaft of the Doru was nearly 6ft long an sturdy. For the purposes of game mechanics the Doru should be considered an exotic double weapon in the hands of a non-Spartan. The hoplite spear was about 9 feet long, including the spearhead and the "sticker." Unless you're advocating that the Spartan should get an extra attack out of it, I would not recommend making it Exotic. In fact, unless you wish to go the Miller route instead of the historic route, the Spartans looked down on those who broke ranks and fought as individuals. They certainly had impressive fighting skills and physical prowess if the need arose, but they didn't like showoffs. ;) Also, the training time for a Spartan would be identical in all cases. All Spartans began the Agoge at age 7; all trained for the same amount of years. |
| Mpinkard04-04-07, 12:18 AM | I've never heard this. The alternate spike was universal, IIRC. The hoplite spear was about 9 feet long, including the spearhead and the "sticker." Unless you're advocating that the Spartan should get an extra attack out of it, I would not recommend making it Exotic. Basing the doru on how it was described on the History channel. I always forget about the extra attack from a double weapon, but no they shouldn't gain an extra attack. They showed them using the Doru with one hand and only being six foot long, making long sweeping strikes while defending with the hoplon. When their opponents fell the Spartan struck downward with the other end of the doru making the killing blow. |
| ElGrecoETAC04-04-07, 05:57 PM | Basing the doru on how it was described on the History channel. I always forget about the extra attack from a double weapon, but no they shouldn't gain an extra attack. They showed them using the Doru with one hand and only being six foot long, making long sweeping strikes while defending with the hoplon. When their opponents fell the Spartan struck downward with the other end of the doru making the killing blow. Yeah, there's nothing "exotic" about poking someone with a spike while they lie down, though, is there? ;) Every reference I've seen in actual texts points to an 8-9 foot length. I don't know why History Channel would advocate a 6-foot long spear (this would be closer to the Persian spear length); did they actually cite it as being 6 feet long, or did it just appear that way on film? Incidentally, I don't know about sweeping strikes, either. The surviving accounts of hoplite warfare point to a fairly straightforward thrusting action--predominately against exposed faces, throats, groin sections, upper legs, and un-shielded arms. |
| Ramenth04-06-07, 01:39 PM | The History channel tends to not actually use real sources. There've been a few articles online pointing out all the historical mistakes in their recent things. |
| bitter thorn04-06-07, 07:18 PM | Basing the doru on how it was described on the History channel. I always forget about the extra attack from a double weapon, but no they shouldn't gain an extra attack. They showed them using the Doru with one hand and only being six foot long, making long sweeping strikes while defending with the hoplon. When their opponents fell the Spartan struck downward with the other end of the doru making the killing blow. I concur with not making the Doru exotic. PCs who wish be able to use a polearm as a double weapon can take the feat Pole Fighter, IIRC. It lets a character use a poleare as a double weapon. Sorry, I don't recall the source. |
| Burningspear04-06-07, 08:09 PM | I concur with not making the Doru exotic. PCs who wish be able to use a polearm as a double weapon can take the feat Pole Fighter, IIRC. It lets a character use a poleare as a double weapon. Sorry, I don't recall the source. cant recall the source either, but i actually remember a feat doing that for all 2handed weapons, where the off bit of the weapon will be doing D6 blungeoning damage.. |
| Mpinkard04-07-07, 01:51 AM | The First and Second image here shows a fairly good couple shots of the doru in the hands of the soldiers, this includes shots of Helmets Shields, and Armor. http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0892737/iid_1250952.jpg.html?path=gallery&path_key=0892737&seq=12 |
| Galdur09-11-07, 11:13 AM | As far as a Spartan soldier, I am playing one kind of based on the 300 spartans AND historical. All be it loosely mind you. Bronze breastplate and Bronze Heavy shield. Great spear and long sword. Warrior skirt. As far as feats go, exotic wpn. prof.-great spear, short haft, wpn. focus- great spear, monkey grip, endurance, diehard, phalanx fighter, run. and just go from there. I myself found it a good mix of historical and hollywood.lol |
| Diffan09-12-07, 02:56 PM | Why longsword? Historically they used shortswords or Xiphos when they're javelin/shortspear was gone and it's much easier to wield in close-combat line fighting that spartan's preferred. Though, that type of fighting isn't depicted much in DnD and a longsword does more damage, i'll admit. |
| DarthVicious07409-13-07, 09:52 PM | The Spartan warriors who died at Thermoplae did wear bronze breastplates and used iron or bronze spearheads. When the Greek forces pulled out of Thermoplae Only the Thespians agreed to stay with the Spartans. And the Spartans gave the Thespians their armor and exchanged eternal vows of friendship. This is according to Herodotus? From whom Frank Miller based much of his research on. He also went to Thermoplae to see the fields and the monument there. Oh god, please don't get me started on Troy. What a Joke of a movie that was. |