Sunder vs Monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sunder vs Monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
landadmiral
11-15-07, 02:56 PM I haven't found any ruling on the following situations, someone please help!

If I am sundering against a monk how is the damage handled? Thier weapon is the limbs of thier body (hands, elbows, feet, knees, legs, head, just about any extremity).
So, does the monk take generic damage?
Is damage dealt to the arm or foot?
Is the arm or foot rendered useless or even hacked off?

all this leading to the final question...

Can I sunder a monk's head?
Suin Bahhar
11-15-07, 03:30 PM Simple.
No to all questions.
You cannot begin a sunder attempt against a creature with natural attack or unarmed strikes unless it specifically says so in the monsters discription (such as hydra heads).
Green Elven Vampire
11-18-07, 03:21 PM Rumor is that Monks will no longer be in 4ED! Die 4ED DIE!!!
Suin Bahhar
11-18-07, 04:38 PM I thought they were to be added with the second players handbook. They share the striker role (high damage to single targets) with rogues and rangers.

They better put sundering in 4ed. And add bards and gnomes to the players book for fearun 4E.
Green Elven Vampire
11-18-07, 06:55 PM I thought they were to be added with the second players handbook. They share the striker role (high damage to single targets) with rogues and rangers.

They better put sundering in 4ed. And add bards and gnomes to the players book for fearun 4E.

See that's my point... why do they even need to put out a second PHB? It's all about making money! All the new changes seem like they were decided by corporate monkeys on horse pills who've never even played D&D.

But otherwise, I read on the boards that the Monk will be removed as a core class.
Muddman72
12-08-07, 09:20 PM As to the question of this thread, no you can't sunder a monk. The feat says specifically that you target a weapon.

If you could sunder specific body parts why wouldn't you ignore sundering the weapon and go straight for the limb? That way they couldn't swing the weapon or any other.

Sorry about that.

I don't have a problem with 1. 4th edition, 2. getting rid of monks or 3. a company making money off of its product.

1. I stopped playing 3.5 6 months before the announcement because I don't like the system anymore. Rules on top of rules on top of more rules. Blah. Give me streamlined, which is what 4th ed seems to be. If its anything like the new Star Wars, then I'm going to like it.

2. Unless it was 11th level or higher, monks were useless. They weren't good fighters and they weren't good skill guys. Fighter/rogue made more sense for that system.

3. Why hate WoTC for making money? Thats what a company does, they make a product and sell it. If you don't like it, don't buy it and continue to play 3.5, but don't come onto their messageboards and bad mouth them for doing what they're supposed to do.
Lord Karsus
12-11-07, 09:19 AM 2. Unless it was 11th level or higher, monks were useless. They weren't good fighters and they weren't good skill guys. Fighter/rogue made more sense for that system.

-I don't think so. Flurry of Blows gives a 1st level Monk two attacks, which is something that not even Fighters can do at that low a level. And, with a high Dex and a high WIS, a Monk can theoretically have a 18 AC without any equipment or anything- very high for 1st Level.

3. Why hate WoTC for making money? Thats what a company does, they make a product and sell it. If you don't like it, don't buy it and continue to play 3.5, but don't come onto their messageboards and bad mouth them for doing what they're supposed to do.

-Hey, it's not against the CoC, so GEV can have a blast. However, there isn't any reason to randomly bring it all up, as has been done.
sfdragon
12-12-07, 05:02 AM I thought at one time i was reading that if sunder hit a natural weapon it was to be treated as critical damage or something, this was a while back though so i cant say
Reneshat
12-12-07, 06:41 AM -I don't think so. Flurry of Blows gives a 1st level Monk two attacks, which is something that not even Fighters can do at that low a level. And, with a high Dex and a high WIS, a Monk can theoretically have a 18 AC without any equipment or anything- very high for 1st Level.

Without special feats or anything, you are right. However, a character with the same Dexterity as the monk can use some of his starting gold to buy a chainshirt and a large wooden shield, and have an armor class of 20 1st level, without being ridiculous. A character that chooses a region that gives banded mail (there are one or two) can get an AC of 19, with a Dexterity of 12. As far as attacks go, give that high dex to a rogue, add the chainshirt and they have the same AC, but if you blow a feat on two weapon fighting, they get the same number of attacks at the same bonus only when in flanking they also get sneak attack.

As a general rule, especially at lower levels, monks are underpowered. This doesn't mean you can't build a decent monk, or even an exceptional one, but it requires more time, and a greater number of good ability scores at 4 (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom). Heavy Armor Fighters only need Strength and Constitution to be effective, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Druids need Consitution and Int, Cha, or Wis depending on the class. Archers really need Strength and Dexterity, though a higher Con never really hurt anyone. Granted Clerics normally have 4 abilities they want to be high, but it's much easier to choose strengths and weaknesses with a Cleric. With a good Strength, Constitution and of course Wisdom (only 3), your cleric is a good fighter and can still cast without any hindrance. If you replace that Strength with a Charisma score, you can't fight as well, but suddenly you can turn undead, and a whole new world of options open up for you with various feats and opportunities to turn those turn attempts into other effects (still only 3 ability scores). Or you can just go with Wisdom and Constitution, and not be able to fight or turn that well, but still you are a good caster that is not only an asset, but vital to the team, and you are operating on only two ability scores.

If you roll your stats, and you roll really well, monk is definitely an option, and can be a good one. In fact if you roll really well, choosing a class like monk that can benefit from multiple good statistics is probably the way to go, seeing how with a lot of the other classes, after a while the additional good stats might make for a great character, but are actually superfluous when it comes to in game effective power. However, that does not change the power balance between the classes in most situations, especially at low levels.

P.S. This is not stopping me from considering a monk of Ilmater as one of my possible three options for an upcoming game I'm going to be playing in.
Reneshat
12-24-07, 02:18 AM I just wanted a place where I could post this quote which is someone telling me about a bad monk build idea. "He forgot a monk using a weapon is full of fail."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
landadmiral 11-15-07, 02:56 PM	I haven't found any ruling on the following situations, someone please help! If I am sundering against a monk how is the damage handled? Thier weapon is the limbs of thier body (hands, elbows, feet, knees, legs, head, just about any extremity). So, does the monk take generic damage? Is damage dealt to the arm or foot? Is the arm or foot rendered useless or even hacked off? all this leading to the final question... Can I sunder a monk's head?
Suin Bahhar 11-15-07, 03:30 PM	Simple. No to all questions. You cannot begin a sunder attempt against a creature with natural attack or unarmed strikes unless it specifically says so in the monsters discription (such as hydra heads).
Green Elven Vampire 11-18-07, 03:21 PM	Rumor is that Monks will no longer be in 4ED! Die 4ED DIE!!!
Suin Bahhar 11-18-07, 04:38 PM	I thought they were to be added with the second players handbook. They share the striker role (high damage to single targets) with rogues and rangers. They better put sundering in 4ed. And add bards and gnomes to the players book for fearun 4E.
Green Elven Vampire 11-18-07, 06:55 PM	I thought they were to be added with the second players handbook. They share the striker role (high damage to single targets) with rogues and rangers. They better put sundering in 4ed. And add bards and gnomes to the players book for fearun 4E. See that's my point... why do they even need to put out a second PHB? It's all about making money! All the new changes seem like they were decided by corporate monkeys on horse pills who've never even played D&D. But otherwise, I read on the boards that the Monk will be removed as a core class.
Muddman72 12-08-07, 09:20 PM	As to the question of this thread, no you can't sunder a monk. The feat says specifically that you target a weapon. If you could sunder specific body parts why wouldn't you ignore sundering the weapon and go straight for the limb? That way they couldn't swing the weapon or any other. Sorry about that. I don't have a problem with 1. 4th edition, 2. getting rid of monks or 3. a company making money off of its product. 1. I stopped playing 3.5 6 months before the announcement because I don't like the system anymore. Rules on top of rules on top of more rules. Blah. Give me streamlined, which is what 4th ed seems to be. If its anything like the new Star Wars, then I'm going to like it. 2. Unless it was 11th level or higher, monks were useless. They weren't good fighters and they weren't good skill guys. Fighter/rogue made more sense for that system. 3. Why hate WoTC for making money? Thats what a company does, they make a product and sell it. If you don't like it, don't buy it and continue to play 3.5, but don't come onto their messageboards and bad mouth them for doing what they're supposed to do.
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 09:19 AM	2. Unless it was 11th level or higher, monks were useless. They weren't good fighters and they weren't good skill guys. Fighter/rogue made more sense for that system. -I don't think so. Flurry of Blows gives a 1st level Monk two attacks, which is something that not even Fighters can do at that low a level. And, with a high Dex and a high WIS, a Monk can theoretically have a 18 AC without any equipment or anything- very high for 1st Level. 3. Why hate WoTC for making money? Thats what a company does, they make a product and sell it. If you don't like it, don't buy it and continue to play 3.5, but don't come onto their messageboards and bad mouth them for doing what they're supposed to do. -Hey, it's not against the CoC, so GEV can have a blast. However, there isn't any reason to randomly bring it all up, as has been done.
sfdragon 12-12-07, 05:02 AM	I thought at one time i was reading that if sunder hit a natural weapon it was to be treated as critical damage or something, this was a while back though so i cant say
Reneshat 12-12-07, 06:41 AM	-I don't think so. Flurry of Blows gives a 1st level Monk two attacks, which is something that not even Fighters can do at that low a level. And, with a high Dex and a high WIS, a Monk can theoretically have a 18 AC without any equipment or anything- very high for 1st Level. Without special feats or anything, you are right. However, a character with the same Dexterity as the monk can use some of his starting gold to buy a chainshirt and a large wooden shield, and have an armor class of 20 1st level, without being ridiculous. A character that chooses a region that gives banded mail (there are one or two) can get an AC of 19, with a Dexterity of 12. As far as attacks go, give that high dex to a rogue, add the chainshirt and they have the same AC, but if you blow a feat on two weapon fighting, they get the same number of attacks at the same bonus only when in flanking they also get sneak attack. As a general rule, especially at lower levels, monks are underpowered. This doesn't mean you can't build a decent monk, or even an exceptional one, but it requires more time, and a greater number of good ability scores at 4 (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom). Heavy Armor Fighters only need Strength and Constitution to be effective, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Druids need Consitution and Int, Cha, or Wis depending on the class. Archers really need Strength and Dexterity, though a higher Con never really hurt anyone. Granted Clerics normally have 4 abilities they want to be high, but it's much easier to choose strengths and weaknesses with a Cleric. With a good Strength, Constitution and of course Wisdom (only 3), your cleric is a good fighter and can still cast without any hindrance. If you replace that Strength with a Charisma score, you can't fight as well, but suddenly you can turn undead, and a whole new world of options open up for you with various feats and opportunities to turn those turn attempts into other effects (still only 3 ability scores). Or you can just go with Wisdom and Constitution, and not be able to fight or turn that well, but still you are a good caster that is not only an asset, but vital to the team, and you are operating on only two ability scores. If you roll your stats, and you roll really well, monk is definitely an option, and can be a good one. In fact if you roll really well, choosing a class like monk that can benefit from multiple good statistics is probably the way to go, seeing how with a lot of the other classes, after a while the additional good stats might make for a great character, but are actually superfluous when it comes to in game effective power. However, that does not change the power balance between the classes in most situations, especially at low levels. P.S. This is not stopping me from considering a monk of Ilmater as one of my possible three options for an upcoming game I'm going to be playing in.
Reneshat 12-24-07, 02:18 AM	I just wanted a place where I could post this quote which is someone telling me about a bad monk build idea. "He forgot a monk using a weapon is full of fail."