Why Weren't They There? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Why Weren't They There? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Keahi19
10-10-07, 05:09 PM Ok there are two ancient Roman weapons that I am curious why they haven't been added to the game.

1. Repeating Ballista: THis weapon is a ROman seige weapon that used turning chains that allowed for a ballista to fire a round about every six seconds. It was invented around 2 BC, and was quite a common Roman weapon. This Ancient weapon is not present in D&D, which is supposed to be the High Middle Ages. Why not?

2. Fire Tube: Ok they have Alchemist's fire which is very similar to Greek Fire. So why don't they have the major delivery of Greek Fire, which is a gravity operated tube that is the first flame thrower? It was used by the Greeks, Roman's, and Byzantines (To destroy Turkish fleets) so why is this ancient weapon absent from the game?
Suin Bahhar
10-10-07, 05:58 PM They are. If you want too.

Simple. Just because something isn't in the books doesn't mean it isn't in the realms. Thats what I love about the setting too.

I think there is even a mobile firethrowing device in the Arms and Equipment guide BTW and a repeating ballista just allowes a reload as a free action with up to 7 or 8 shots per "clip".
Keahi19
10-10-07, 06:07 PM Mobile fire throwing device, I don't believe there is.

Repeating Crossbow is int here, but not repeating ballista. But, I gather it can be added later or something.
selunatic2397
10-10-07, 06:53 PM I have both in my Realms...plus a whole lot of other neat stuff that one of my players is continously creating...:)
SgtAnjay
10-10-07, 09:18 PM Just because the Romans had something doesn't mean civilizations in the middle ages did. When the empire fell alot of knowledge was lost. Romans had indoor plumbing, too.
Then there's the fact that not every civilization will have identical advancements anyway. The technology of feudal eastern and western societies weren't the same even when they were equivalent in development.
Plus....there are a lot of ancient weapons not in the game.

That said...neither of those would be out of place at all. Stat 'em out and go! :)
Keahi19
10-10-07, 11:51 PM Actually the idea that the Roman technology was lost during the Middle Age is a Victorian era myth. I did a research thesis for my watershed class on Medieval tech, and actually the Rennesciance was no rediscovery. It was just when the ideas of classical knowledge became main stream. Roman technology remained a rather valid part as the invaders who overthrew Rome actually didn't force Romans to take their culture, they actually became more Romanized themselves.

And since the Roman empire's Eastern faction wasn't overthrown til the end of the 15th century, Byzantium retained Roman tech until the 1480's.

And I did exactly that, I just wish that it was in the books. I had a Gond worshiping cleric/fighter/warmaster/ bard. Yeah lots of multi-classing and balancing. I got primitive rifling and eventually (At the very end when my craft weapon was heinus.) I got breech loading. Which is older than people think. It's just really time consuming to secure that breech. Especcially without interchangeable parts.

\I used the word "Actually" alot there didn't I?
Stigger
10-11-07, 05:03 PM The greek fire projector exists... I seem to recall those being mentioned somewhere. Although as I type this, I'm all of a sudden nagged by the idea that it "Of Ships and the Sea" that mentioned it, not something for FR specifically...

Never heard of a repeating ballistae though... think I'm gonna have to look those up and make use of them.

As to securing the breech, consider the idea of getting a wizard (with the Argent Savant PrC or something along those lines if you can manage it) to use a magical Force effect to seal the breech and chamber during firing. Less wear and tear on the metal, much safer to the shooter, and higher muzzle velocity as the gasses normally wasted are all directed towards pushing that bullet. Of course the muzzle pressure could get ugly and you'd have to use the effect on the entire barrel, but look at the bright side, you could maybe get yourself polygonal rifling from the force effect. :D

Seriously though, if you like technomancy, I'd suggest taking a look at The Artisan's Handbook for Mage:The Sorcerer's Crusade, its got tons of nifty little ideas and hints for playing a fantasy technomancer/technologist... really the whole setting in general would probably be helpful. :)
Keahi19
10-12-07, 11:38 AM Well I don't play that charecter anymore, unforunitly. She's reached Epic and is a Secret Lord of Waterdeep now. (That was a messed up ending, but the DM handled it so well that it worked.)

What edition is that book? Artisan's Handbook. I might want to pick that up.

And magic to the breech, that might be an interesting little thing to try later.
Stigger
10-16-07, 03:11 AM Of Ships and the Sea was for 2e, no idea if its in PDF format or not, but I don't see why it wouldn't be.
MarkusTay63
10-16-07, 01:46 PM I could of sworn that the Thayans used Alchemecal (Greek) Fire - IIRC, it was the primary weapon of their 'Dreadnaught' ship , Red Scourge.

EDIT: I looked it up - they used the older form of Thayan Bombards - the ones that fired globes of Alchemical fire. More like the 'burning pitch' on catapults then the flamethrower-like Greek Fire projectors. I do remember some book containing the stats for the fire projectors, though.
kintire
10-17-07, 09:24 AM 1. Repeating Ballista: THis weapon is a ROman seige weapon that used turning chains that allowed for a ballista to fire a round about every six seconds. It was invented around 2 BC, and was quite a common Roman weapon. This Ancient weapon is not present in D&D, which is supposed to be the High Middle Ages. Why not?

DnD generally has very little use for siege engines. The focus of the rules is on small party adventures not full scale military operations. Similarly the fire siphons were siege weapons and naval combat devices, not personal arms. DnD isn't very interested in things like that.
GoldDragon
10-17-07, 09:45 AM Ok there are two ancient Roman weapons that I am curious why they haven't been added to the game.

1. Repeating Ballista: THis weapon is a ROman seige weapon that used turning chains that allowed for a ballista to fire a round about every six seconds. It was invented around 2 BC, and was quite a common Roman weapon. This Ancient weapon is not present in D&D, which is supposed to be the High Middle Ages. Why not?

2. Fire Tube: Ok they have Alchemist's fire which is very similar to Greek Fire. So why don't they have the major delivery of Greek Fire, which is a gravity operated tube that is the first flame thrower? It was used by the Greeks, Roman's, and Byzantines (To destroy Turkish fleets) so why is this ancient weapon absent from the game?

Honestly?

Because D&D is built on ass backward European and English culture timeline were they were still "Swinging in the trees" while the Greeks were making repeating balistas and flame throwers in 2BC, the Chinese had Guns as a gift from the gods from 1400ish BC (also rockets, gernades, and Cannons..goes with the whole gunpowder thing), and the "Ancients" had flying machines,brass astronomical computers, and sliding doors and indoor pluming in 2500-5000 BC...lol

But in all fairness the Europeans and "British" were one of the many cultures that have been "Blasted back to the Dark Age" a few times while ,ost of the "refined" cultures fell into non existance...so, who really faired better? the British and Norse "Gunters" primative culture and low tech high superstitious world that D&D mindset is based on or the GreeK, Roman, and Alantian and Babylonian High Tech cultures that no longer exist?

And in actuality if you are talking Forgotten Realms a lot of the HUman cultures are ex-slaves of a fallen Empire and ex-Nethrilian to boot so being ass backward with magic superstition and low tech would be expected for the double whammy of being little more then cavemen, though the machines of Lantan and "water works" of Unther are said to be impresive.
GoldDragon
10-19-07, 01:20 AM Almost forgot, with a method known as "Chromium plating" the Chinese had Bronze weapons as hard as and as sharp as any steel sword or Armor in Medevil Europe or even modern Steel blade as far back as 300bc

oh, and amusingly, gun powder actually was a result of searching for the "Elixir of youth" by Chinese Alchemist
Stigger
10-19-07, 07:00 AM I have no idea how you came to that conclusion on human cultures... or the commentary on the magic-superstition or technophobia. Nor can I figure out where the ex-slave bit or Netherese parts come in, considering there's only 3 or 4 small groups of people (the Tun and certain Uthgardt tribes being the most significant as I recall) who still have semi-significant Netherese blood, and that the Mulan ethnicity makes up a significant portion of Faerun's overall human cultures. Chondathan culture has had FAR more influence on the Realms than the Mulan ever have... and Gond would hardly be an intermediate power if Faerun were low-tech.
Bullet06320
10-29-07, 01:06 AM DnD generally has very little use for siege engines. The focus of the rules is on small party adventures not full scale military operations.

Once upon a time, a party a played with ended up being a small caravan of siege equiptment.

War Wagon Number One: the first one that we made
we took captured shields and set them up on the sides to make makeshift armor plating
there was a catapult in the back, it was rigged up to fire from the driver seat. of course after the first shot it was useless untill it was reloaded. but having a wooden table flying at you was a little strange to see. we hid the catapult under a table in the back and was postioned just right to launch when needed.
the underside was modified at one point with a compartment for smuggling that could fit a person

War Wagon Number Two: a prisoner transport, fully enclosed cage captured from some Zhents
That was too cool not to keep, the top was modified with railings and more captured shields and was used as a platform for archers untill we picked up a Ballistae and mounted up there. we stored most of our treasure there.

War Wagon Number Three:
It was a our cargo wagon mostly, just shields mounted on the sides for protection

we also had half dozen wardogs and a couple of hirelings herding the cattle that was stolen from a farm that was accidently set on fire by the pyro of the group(I may or may not have been playing that Character)

An eclectric group of PCs but anything can happen in fantasy game
thedude72
11-03-07, 12:34 AM i once had a "train" of armored wagons all connected with interlocking plates along the whole thing with arrow slits running along the whole thing. our wizard was a damn good engineer....
captaincarot
11-11-07, 07:37 AM I have both in my Realms...plus a whole lot of other neat stuff that one of my players is continously creating...:)

durned gondsmen!

the other problem you have with putting stats for repeating ballistea into games, is dm's like me then call them trollish repeating crossbows and arm whole gangs of giants and trolls with them. :schemes:
GoldDragon
11-11-07, 08:32 AM durned gondsmen!

the other problem you have with putting stats for repeating ballistea into games, is dm's like me then call them trollish repeating crossbows and arm whole gangs of giants and trolls with them. :schemes:

Well, repeating crossbows and repeating balistas really should only be, like guns, cannons, calvery, pike formations, and machine guns, only on a battlefield of 100s v.s. 100s if not thousands v.s thousands.

Most of it is very expensive and only someone capable of fielding an army would have the money and resources to have such weapons and historically most of this stuff IS Military issue and not available to civilian populous much less an Adventurer unless they had happened to "swipe" them when they were released from service. (Like a Souvenir gun from a enemy solider killed)

Much like 1 adventurer holding a Pike to recieve a charge of an enemy party while the others wait with other weapons drawn, having only one gunner doesn't make much sense.

Repeating Crossbows are possible to be useful by an individual especially if facing a Raskasha with bless bolts or a charging Vampire with bolts dipped in Holy water, but they are also more of an enmasse weapon against unarmored foes as they are not as powerful, have shorter range, and do less damage (though traditionally poisoned)....e.g. 100 repeating crossbowmen can release 6000 bolts a minute
Craig C.
11-17-07, 01:24 PM Use the Artificer rules in the Eberron sourcebooks to help introduce these technologically-advanced weapons. The Artificer core class is easily portable to the Realms. Especially to nations like Lantan, Halruaa, etc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keahi19 10-10-07, 05:09 PM	Ok there are two ancient Roman weapons that I am curious why they haven't been added to the game. 1. Repeating Ballista: THis weapon is a ROman seige weapon that used turning chains that allowed for a ballista to fire a round about every six seconds. It was invented around 2 BC, and was quite a common Roman weapon. This Ancient weapon is not present in D&D, which is supposed to be the High Middle Ages. Why not? 2. Fire Tube: Ok they have Alchemist's fire which is very similar to Greek Fire. So why don't they have the major delivery of Greek Fire, which is a gravity operated tube that is the first flame thrower? It was used by the Greeks, Roman's, and Byzantines (To destroy Turkish fleets) so why is this ancient weapon absent from the game?
Suin Bahhar 10-10-07, 05:58 PM	They are. If you want too. Simple. Just because something isn't in the books doesn't mean it isn't in the realms. Thats what I love about the setting too. I think there is even a mobile firethrowing device in the Arms and Equipment guide BTW and a repeating ballista just allowes a reload as a free action with up to 7 or 8 shots per "clip".
Keahi19 10-10-07, 06:07 PM	Mobile fire throwing device, I don't believe there is. Repeating Crossbow is int here, but not repeating ballista. But, I gather it can be added later or something.
selunatic2397 10-10-07, 06:53 PM	I have both in my Realms...plus a whole lot of other neat stuff that one of my players is continously creating...:)
SgtAnjay 10-10-07, 09:18 PM	Just because the Romans had something doesn't mean civilizations in the middle ages did. When the empire fell alot of knowledge was lost. Romans had indoor plumbing, too. Then there's the fact that not every civilization will have identical advancements anyway. The technology of feudal eastern and western societies weren't the same even when they were equivalent in development. Plus....there are a lot of ancient weapons not in the game. That said...neither of those would be out of place at all. Stat 'em out and go! :)
Keahi19 10-10-07, 11:51 PM	Actually the idea that the Roman technology was lost during the Middle Age is a Victorian era myth. I did a research thesis for my watershed class on Medieval tech, and actually the Rennesciance was no rediscovery. It was just when the ideas of classical knowledge became main stream. Roman technology remained a rather valid part as the invaders who overthrew Rome actually didn't force Romans to take their culture, they actually became more Romanized themselves. And since the Roman empire's Eastern faction wasn't overthrown til the end of the 15th century, Byzantium retained Roman tech until the 1480's. And I did exactly that, I just wish that it was in the books. I had a Gond worshiping cleric/fighter/warmaster/ bard. Yeah lots of multi-classing and balancing. I got primitive rifling and eventually (At the very end when my craft weapon was heinus.) I got breech loading. Which is older than people think. It's just really time consuming to secure that breech. Especcially without interchangeable parts. \I used the word "Actually" alot there didn't I?
Stigger 10-11-07, 05:03 PM	The greek fire projector exists... I seem to recall those being mentioned somewhere. Although as I type this, I'm all of a sudden nagged by the idea that it "Of Ships and the Sea" that mentioned it, not something for FR specifically... Never heard of a repeating ballistae though... think I'm gonna have to look those up and make use of them. As to securing the breech, consider the idea of getting a wizard (with the Argent Savant PrC or something along those lines if you can manage it) to use a magical Force effect to seal the breech and chamber during firing. Less wear and tear on the metal, much safer to the shooter, and higher muzzle velocity as the gasses normally wasted are all directed towards pushing that bullet. Of course the muzzle pressure could get ugly and you'd have to use the effect on the entire barrel, but look at the bright side, you could maybe get yourself polygonal rifling from the force effect. :D Seriously though, if you like technomancy, I'd suggest taking a look at The Artisan's Handbook for Mage:The Sorcerer's Crusade, its got tons of nifty little ideas and hints for playing a fantasy technomancer/technologist... really the whole setting in general would probably be helpful. :)
Keahi19 10-12-07, 11:38 AM	Well I don't play that charecter anymore, unforunitly. She's reached Epic and is a Secret Lord of Waterdeep now. (That was a messed up ending, but the DM handled it so well that it worked.) What edition is that book? Artisan's Handbook. I might want to pick that up. And magic to the breech, that might be an interesting little thing to try later.
Stigger 10-16-07, 03:11 AM	Of Ships and the Sea was for 2e, no idea if its in PDF format or not, but I don't see why it wouldn't be.
MarkusTay63 10-16-07, 01:46 PM	I could of sworn that the Thayans used Alchemecal (Greek) Fire - IIRC, it was the primary weapon of their 'Dreadnaught' ship , Red Scourge. EDIT: I looked it up - they used the older form of Thayan Bombards - the ones that fired globes of Alchemical fire. More like the 'burning pitch' on catapults then the flamethrower-like Greek Fire projectors. I do remember some book containing the stats for the fire projectors, though.
kintire 10-17-07, 09:24 AM	1. Repeating Ballista: THis weapon is a ROman seige weapon that used turning chains that allowed for a ballista to fire a round about every six seconds. It was invented around 2 BC, and was quite a common Roman weapon. This Ancient weapon is not present in D&D, which is supposed to be the High Middle Ages. Why not? DnD generally has very little use for siege engines. The focus of the rules is on small party adventures not full scale military operations. Similarly the fire siphons were siege weapons and naval combat devices, not personal arms. DnD isn't very interested in things like that.
GoldDragon 10-17-07, 09:45 AM	Ok there are two ancient Roman weapons that I am curious why they haven't been added to the game. 1. Repeating Ballista: THis weapon is a ROman seige weapon that used turning chains that allowed for a ballista to fire a round about every six seconds. It was invented around 2 BC, and was quite a common Roman weapon. This Ancient weapon is not present in D&D, which is supposed to be the High Middle Ages. Why not? 2. Fire Tube: Ok they have Alchemist's fire which is very similar to Greek Fire. So why don't they have the major delivery of Greek Fire, which is a gravity operated tube that is the first flame thrower? It was used by the Greeks, Roman's, and Byzantines (To destroy Turkish fleets) so why is this ancient weapon absent from the game? Honestly? Because D&D is built on ass backward European and English culture timeline were they were still "Swinging in the trees" while the Greeks were making repeating balistas and flame throwers in 2BC, the Chinese had Guns as a gift from the gods from 1400ish BC (also rockets, gernades, and Cannons..goes with the whole gunpowder thing), and the "Ancients" had flying machines,brass astronomical computers, and sliding doors and indoor pluming in 2500-5000 BC...lol But in all fairness the Europeans and "British" were one of the many cultures that have been "Blasted back to the Dark Age" a few times while ,ost of the "refined" cultures fell into non existance...so, who really faired better? the British and Norse "Gunters" primative culture and low tech high superstitious world that D&D mindset is based on or the GreeK, Roman, and Alantian and Babylonian High Tech cultures that no longer exist? And in actuality if you are talking Forgotten Realms a lot of the HUman cultures are ex-slaves of a fallen Empire and ex-Nethrilian to boot so being ass backward with magic superstition and low tech would be expected for the double whammy of being little more then cavemen, though the machines of Lantan and "water works" of Unther are said to be impresive.
GoldDragon 10-19-07, 01:20 AM	Almost forgot, with a method known as "Chromium plating" the Chinese had Bronze weapons as hard as and as sharp as any steel sword or Armor in Medevil Europe or even modern Steel blade as far back as 300bc oh, and amusingly, gun powder actually was a result of searching for the "Elixir of youth" by Chinese Alchemist
Stigger 10-19-07, 07:00 AM	I have no idea how you came to that conclusion on human cultures... or the commentary on the magic-superstition or technophobia. Nor can I figure out where the ex-slave bit or Netherese parts come in, considering there's only 3 or 4 small groups of people (the Tun and certain Uthgardt tribes being the most significant as I recall) who still have semi-significant Netherese blood, and that the Mulan ethnicity makes up a significant portion of Faerun's overall human cultures. Chondathan culture has had FAR more influence on the Realms than the Mulan ever have... and Gond would hardly be an intermediate power if Faerun were low-tech.
Bullet06320 10-29-07, 01:06 AM	DnD generally has very little use for siege engines. The focus of the rules is on small party adventures not full scale military operations. Once upon a time, a party a played with ended up being a small caravan of siege equiptment. War Wagon Number One: the first one that we made we took captured shields and set them up on the sides to make makeshift armor plating there was a catapult in the back, it was rigged up to fire from the driver seat. of course after the first shot it was useless untill it was reloaded. but having a wooden table flying at you was a little strange to see. we hid the catapult under a table in the back and was postioned just right to launch when needed. the underside was modified at one point with a compartment for smuggling that could fit a person War Wagon Number Two: a prisoner transport, fully enclosed cage captured from some Zhents That was too cool not to keep, the top was modified with railings and more captured shields and was used as a platform for archers untill we picked up a Ballistae and mounted up there. we stored most of our treasure there. War Wagon Number Three: It was a our cargo wagon mostly, just shields mounted on the sides for protection we also had half dozen wardogs and a couple of hirelings herding the cattle that was stolen from a farm that was accidently set on fire by the pyro of the group(I may or may not have been playing that Character) An eclectric group of PCs but anything can happen in fantasy game
thedude72 11-03-07, 12:34 AM	i once had a "train" of armored wagons all connected with interlocking plates along the whole thing with arrow slits running along the whole thing. our wizard was a damn good engineer....
captaincarot 11-11-07, 07:37 AM	I have both in my Realms...plus a whole lot of other neat stuff that one of my players is continously creating...:) durned gondsmen! the other problem you have with putting stats for repeating ballistea into games, is dm's like me then call them trollish repeating crossbows and arm whole gangs of giants and trolls with them. :schemes:
GoldDragon 11-11-07, 08:32 AM	durned gondsmen! the other problem you have with putting stats for repeating ballistea into games, is dm's like me then call them trollish repeating crossbows and arm whole gangs of giants and trolls with them. :schemes: Well, repeating crossbows and repeating balistas really should only be, like guns, cannons, calvery, pike formations, and machine guns, only on a battlefield of 100s v.s. 100s if not thousands v.s thousands. Most of it is very expensive and only someone capable of fielding an army would have the money and resources to have such weapons and historically most of this stuff IS Military issue and not available to civilian populous much less an Adventurer unless they had happened to "swipe" them when they were released from service. (Like a Souvenir gun from a enemy solider killed) Much like 1 adventurer holding a Pike to recieve a charge of an enemy party while the others wait with other weapons drawn, having only one gunner doesn't make much sense. Repeating Crossbows are possible to be useful by an individual especially if facing a Raskasha with bless bolts or a charging Vampire with bolts dipped in Holy water, but they are also more of an enmasse weapon against unarmored foes as they are not as powerful, have shorter range, and do less damage (though traditionally poisoned)....e.g. 100 repeating crossbowmen can release 6000 bolts a minute
Craig C. 11-17-07, 01:24 PM	Use the Artificer rules in the Eberron sourcebooks to help introduce these technologically-advanced weapons. The Artificer core class is easily portable to the Realms. Especially to nations like Lantan, Halruaa, etc.